Don't Install Trailing Arms Before You Watch This! Ultimate Land Rover Discovery Build Episode 28

Let's talk about Trailing arm rear suspensions! On the right 4x4, this offroad suspension style can be a huge asset. Freeing up some space, building a beefy lower link, and using a smaller Coilover are big advantages. BUT there are two sides to this story! I don't recommend Trailing arms for most offroad builds. They add complication to the initial setup, add weight and even reduce ground clearance. In this video, I want to help give you the basics so you can make a decision that will appropriately suit your project. Enjoy this video! Next week we will get this Landrover Discovery on the trail to test out these new mods. See you then!
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[@BentFabrications]

Just a note to consider. When you put together a trailing arm and limit the movement for the shocks with a wobble stopper, you're keeping that arm vertical to the ground even at full flex. That means all the misalignment of the axle angle has to be available in the joint on the axle side. This is why we sometimes have to step up to a joint even bigger than a 1.25 heim with high misalignment spacers on the rigs with massive travel amounts and flex. Your axle on that may not articulate a lot on that particular build, but those Johny joint style joints are really limited, be sure to cycle the suspension to full flex and confirm that joint is going to be able to handle the misalignment you need.

[@sloppyoppie]

Yup. All those other joints are ok imo for low speed if you can justify a ding from dragging your rig across the trail with a limp control arm. My style is go fast so I now only go fast w/1.25 (or more) heims. A JJ almost killed me.

[@hongmihnhahn7081]

But the bigger heim doesn’t mean more available angle ?

[@DCOJos]

Your next tool should be a lathe and you’ll never have to worry about sourcing issues. I’m sure you knew that already. 😊

[@MacsSpecialitiesMotorsports]

Amen!!

[@branchandfoundry560]

When I got mine I didn't have a specific job in mind, just knew in my gut I needed it. I use it daily sometimes. Definitely the most valuable tool in a metal shop.

[@badgermetal]

Iv used a drill in a vice as a lathe to make custom bushings. Only works on softer stuff but it works.

[@briandrose]

You can almost certainly find your sleeve material/dimensions on McMaster. You're definitely going to pay a premium, but they have everything under the sun in stock. I'm spoiled because the warehouse is a mile down the road from me in SoCal.

[@davesmith8936]

McMaster Carr will call in Norwalk. My happy place! LOL!

[@loganrichardson5385]

For the sleeves, order some 3/4 rod and cut/drill to your length. Or I'm sure you could have a machine shop make you some also.

[@scooterprint]

Nate, you totally missed the opportunity to call this video "TROPHY TRUCK SUSPENSION SWAP" or something similar. Jokes aside, very happy to see something like this on your channel. I've always been interested in trailing arm style suspension, but haven't seen any good videos on it aside from the standard 4-link setups you'd find on a jeep/similar. Edit: I'd get in touch with ADS (Arizona Desert Suspension) about the bushing material and your coilover valving. I have spoken with them before about coilovers for my truck, and they're super cool people.

[@EngiTrek]

Perfect time to get yourself a lathe! Make your own sleeves and then whip out a set of delrin bushings the correct length!

[@VaanillaGorilla]

Might be time to add a metal lathe to your arsenal of tools.

[@DirtLifestyle]

Man I wish!

[@holdthatdown6695]

Nate try ruffstuff for the inner sleeve

[@BumDogSuMo]

Yup. I made a wide busing mount for my Atlas and got a long 9/16 inner diameter sleeve from RuffStuff

[@AddictedCreationz]

Nate, great episode. Got a tip for you for your forklift: convert your tank to a standard 20 lb grille tank. Easier & faster to fill (just swap), and you don't have to worry about tank recertification. I did this to mine and love it...

[@jiggyquinn5635]

Thank you

[@gregtennyson]

Thanks for inspiration to get off my ass and finish my bumper. Glad to see you making videos again ✌🏼

[@DirtLifestyle]

Get out there!!!

[@ratfarmers]

Mmmmmm...... you said cake! That Evolution magnetic drill is now totally on my Christmas want list! Thanks! That Barnes arm kit is like metal legos for fabricators! Very cool!

[@nrhudec]

FYI, your spring rate estimation is a bit off. To get the same effective spring rate you need to divide the current rate by the square of the motion ratio. New=current/(MR^2). So for example if you current spring rate is 300 lb/in and assuming the motion ratio is .75, then he would need about a 530 lb/in spring to achieve the same effective stiffness.

[@gregsmithracing4479]

Came here to say this, and for example if your shock mounting was mid point(50%) of the trailing arm it would be a 1200 lb/in spring(300 lb/in effective wheel rate). I think Nate’s guess of 300 lb/in is high though. I don’t know his weight, travel, and target ride height, but my 7k lb land cruiser had an effective rate of about 130ish lbs/in. With less travel ~200 lb/in sounds more realistic.

[@vincentbentley1079]

@@gregsmithracing4479 I guess in normal use the design is also factoring in the spring rate of a pressurized air-spring. However, if that air-spring is designed to be mechanically constrained by a coil spring, I have no idea what it will do without the containment.

[@LukeEdward]

THANK YOU! Even without the mathematical formula, take the opposite view of the measurement of torque. Moving out 100% further - or in reverse, 50% inward, you would be applying double the amount of force. If you are 3x out from the center, and you move to 4x length, that would be a 33% increase on torque, not 25%.

[@branchandfoundry560]

Grateful you posted this info! Sitting here thinking it can't simply be linear like Nate's saying, but what do I know?!?

[@MacsSpecialitiesMotorsports]

Excited to see how your experiment turns out for you!

[@chopperchuck]

After 40 years of fab/welding I look forward to your videos to see what and how your going to build your next project , good job Nate

[@DirtLifestyle]

Thanks brother, I appreciate the kind words 🙏.

[@thelonewrangler1008]

That trailing arm is a work of art. I'd definitely beef up those frame mounts too

[@JW-cn6op]

You definatley need a lathe.Even a bench top model would work for tons of smaller parts like this and keep you rolling through a project rather than waiting days or more for a part.

[@DirtLifestyle]

Hopefully one day

[@troydecker9685]

I really want to 4link my 1990 Suburban but it’s a daily driver and occasionally a trail rig. Thanks for the Trailing arm info. Just more information to make a educated decision

[@nickcowley8757]

Love being able to see the changes in plan with the explanation of why! Super cool to see the process

[@Defender110SLO]

Owsome arms you made. Insane. 😍 Cheers. 🍻

[@timcope6685]

It's always a good Sunday morning when I get to watch Nate building something and I get to learn at the same time! Suspension's are really interesting, the geometry involved is fascinating to say the least!! Happy Thanksgiving Nate and to all of yours!

[@hotflashfoto]

A little bit of math for those who scratched their heads when Nate mentioned "25%": When you move the spring 25% from the axle, in order to keep the same ride height, the new spring has to be 33% stronger, not 25%. Use the reciprocal fraction: The spring is 3/4 of the distance from the front to the axle, so the spring has to 4/3 times as strong. Same for the shock valving. The following example includes some rounding to make for fewer fractions... Using Nate's example, imagine that the arm is 4 feet long. You move the spring so that it is now 3 feet from the front joint and 1 foot from the axle. If it had 400 lbs of force at the axle, then there is 100 lbs per foot of arm length. Now at 3 feet from the front joint, you now need to account for that lost 100 lbs of force. So, divide that by the 3 feet and you get 33 lbs, or 33% more spring force needed, not 25 lbs or 25%. That shows that the 400-lb spring would need 33% , or 133 lbs, more force, making it a 533-lb spring. If it had a 300-lb spring, then 33% more would make the new one a 400-lb spring. No matter what size it was, the new size or spring rate will need to be 33% more.

[@DownNDirty_OffRoad]

Been thinking about this setup and you are helping me a lot on questions I had. Watching this to the end for all the info I can get!!😃

[@DirtLifestyle]

Happy to help 👊

[@chuckieswickedgoodfab]

great explanation of trailing arm pro-con, it was very insightful. Always great content!!!

[@davidlong3247]

Nice! Love to see fabrication.

[@BigFishOverlanding]

The fab work you do is so cool to watch. Thanks for posting this man.

[@talon0863]

For longer bushings, you can use 3 of those instead of two. Cut the third down to fit in the center.

[@simon-mouse8739]

Exactly what I was thinking just cut a 3rd bush down to take up the slack/gap 👍

[@mikemorgan4670]

Very interesting. Always appreciate your explanations of the engineering. Thanks. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family Nate!

[@DirtLifestyle]

Thank you! Happy Thanksgiving!

[@zd533]

Not sure if 4130 is the right material, but McMaster has .750OD, .620ID cold roll tube. Not sure if .005" on the ID will be an issue... The PN is 89955K599 Very informative video, definitely appreciate the time you put into these.

[@michaeldurling793]

Yup McMaster was going to be my best suggestion, my experience is they have almost anything and everything under one roof.

[@lifelinefabllc]

Funny. I went straight to McMaster and found the same thing. They really don't have it. I doubt a plated bolt would fit .620 but maybe. I also think I would want something rust resistant for the bushing like stainless or 4140.

[@skylinesandro]

@@lifelinefabllc they have 0.634 ID which would probably be fine. That's part #89955K158

[@DirtLifestyle]

Thank you! This is certainly an option if I need it

[@vetguy2562]

I can't even wait to see this build YEAH 🤘

[@Jeep.wj.tj.australia]

It's always a pleasure watching you content 👍🏻

[@scottyh72]

Thanks for bringing up shock valving. It is too often overlooked. I just revalved my Fox 2.0's, and made my leaf spring rig ride much nicer than the internet says it should.

[@robbase2285]

Should do a video on shock placement on a rear axle. Front, rear or 1 front 1rear.

[@artyseibert]

Check out McMaster-Carr for the sleeves. They might have what you need

[@SWFabrication.]

That trailing arm is pretty slick. Nice to see them not 55 or 60 inches long and as a WIY kit. Looking forward to the end result on this one.

[@vincentcarriere183]

Super stocked to see à suspension video on this channel its the reason I subscribed in the first place 🙆‍♂️

[@randumadventures]

Dam really making me reconsider all the time I put into my leaf spring setup

[@sas86toy]

Love the extra metal wrap around, something I would of done🤘🏼

[@ryanaustin2617]

I love your upgrade series on the Disco 2. I own one and love it. If I ever win a lottery, I'll send my Disco to your shop (as a project, I know you are not a garage). Keep up the good work.

[@georgemitchell8991]

Super interesting. I think I'm going to play with trailing arms soon. Thanks for the video!!

[@DirtLifestyle]

Thanks for watching! Good luck with the trailing arm experimentation 😁

[@georgemitchell8991]

@@DirtLifestyle I really like what you said about the aluminum I had no idea that it bounces back. And I was thinking about doing the kind you're making but after you said it's not good for rocks I'm thinking differently now

[@mikejensen-fogt4662]

Nate, once you have a lathe, things like that sleeve are never a problem for a build.... take a piece of 3/4" bar stock and punch a 5/8" drill down the center... I love fabricating! but learning how to machine took my fabrication skills to the next level! having a lathe and mill at home is so dang handy for things like that lol....

[@Flitzer514]

Time for a lathe, Nate! A 12" or 13" would be nice.

[@TheMrhick92]

Maybe the sleeves for a set of leafspring bushings would work

[@rjm7168]

I think your spring rate math is wrong. If your spring is located 25% short of the axle, then it's 3/4 of the way from the pivot point. So, since the spring moment arm is 3/4 the length of the axle moment arm, the new spring should be 4/3 (reciprocal of 3/4) of the original spring rate, which is 33% more - barring other changes of course.

[@grabberorange5663]

Nailed it.

[@nrhudec]

@rjm that's still not quite right. To get the same effective spring rate you need to divide the current rate by the square of the motion ratio. New=current/(MR^2). So for example if his current spring rate is 300 lb/in and motion ratio is .75 like you assume, then he would need about a 530 lb/in spring to achieve the same effective stiffness.

[@Jay-uh2jb]

Yes, I hope he realizes the 25% and 50% he describes does not directly translate to spring rate increase he needs. The increase needed is far higher.

[@DirtLifestyle]

I completely agree and I want to elaborate a bit in the next episode. The problem is finding dead reliable equations that I can communicate to my viewers with confidence. I've seen a few different ways to calculate this, and all have a different conclusions. They way we are doing this is the basic rule of thumb to get us close, then measure what rate we need based on the sag of the springs we have. Not very scientific but pretty standard in the offroad world unfortunately. Finding this info online from a reliable source is tough but I will dig into this issue deeper in the next video 👍

[@ultra4suzukisamurai679]

McMaster Carr is a good source for tube for sleeves. Not the cheapest but convenient.

[@SHOOT_NDX]

I love your Taco & all of your wheeling & building videos. I think you do a really great job. I’m also really impressed with your building, wheeling, breaking & then rebuilding the vehicles. Keep it up & I just bought a new Tundra if you’re interested in doing some work on it. LOL

[@Kami8705]

McMaster and find somebody with a lathe, would be a simple job

[@dandahermitseals5582]

When I was a kid lots of cars still had the drive shaft in a pipe with a tapered tubular on each side to eep the axle square. A big strong tubular triangle. Studebaker light trucks axles were like that. This is just a modern rendition of that original technique.

[@BradPickett685]

metal supermarkets for the bushing sleeve

[@richardworley2746]

Tractor supply has bushing sleeves. In a pinch that's where I usually go.

[@TheEinart]

Love your work, i see also you have a hole in your hoodie, something familiar with that 😅

[@EricaMTB]

Your maths for spring leverage is wrong. Moving the mount in 50% will increase leverage 100%. It's x/0.5=2x

[@DirtLifestyle]

Yep

[@ItAintJustPaint]

You can buy 3/4 steel tube @ Home Depot that’s 1/16 wall, that gives you 5/8 ID

[@Fix_It_Again_Tony]

That's not a bad idea, just need to remove the weld seem on the inside.

[@DirtLifestyle]

Interesting. I will go look at home depot today 👍

[@Escape.Idiocracy]

Maaaaaan I’m think the gladiator needs trailing arms too- like the hybrid high clearance kind.

[@Steddywelly]

Can you make a video on air suspension ? How it differs in suspension dynamics than a coil spring

[@albertfetting736]

Go to an Ag store, tractor supply , John Deere, Kubota and ask for bushing sleeves for control on 3 pt hitches.

[@vincentbentley1079]

It's an interesting project that I will watch to see how it turns out. Have you considered using a swaybar with disconnects (in cab control or manual) for the rear suspension? A rear swaybar would enable you to valve the shocks to precisely control bump and rebound, tuning the swaybar to control body roll for a better ride.

[@kevinshaber8742]

I have 20' of 3/4x5/8 tube for exactly the same application. Be happy to send you some. I'll have to share my trailing arm setup when I finish in a couple months. Mine is going to be four-corner all air.

[@S_Stanley29]

For sleeping could check dirt king they have loads of builder parts

[@Jodah175]

Next tool on your xmas wish list: a small lathe. :-)

[@kyles360]

Just used dirtlifestyle coupon at barns and saved $81.00 on my link kit for my samurai. Have you ever thought about making anti squat/roll information videos? You usually go into extreme detail on most things love your videos I believe I have watched every one by now. Keep it up Nate. 🤘🏾

[@PNW_Rodeo]

There are a few companies that sell custom length builder bushings. On my Rodeo the oe bushing is 2.75" which isn't very common. I bought my custom length bushings from ruffstuff. 👍

[@justincmw]

Try McMaster for the sleeve

[@senorarnold]

Aircraft Spruce and Specialty Co. sell seemless tubing in all different ODs and IDs by the foot. I did a quick check and they have 3/4 OD with a .620 ID slightly smaller than 5/8. Hope this helps.

[@thumpstar12502]

I agree . then just buy a .625 carbide tip reamer and open it up if you have to .

[@josephvavken3235]

McMaster Carr awesome website for random material, great job explaining everything. Really enjoy all the different builds. What’s going on with the tdi engine build?

[@270Remi]

1/2 sched 40 black iron pipe is about 3/4 od by 5/8 id

[@CodyCrafted]

And butter soft with an inconsistent wall thickness, and a seam.

[@minimule1]

I have to say nice work I love the disco . I have a D1 and a RRC 2 door . My RRC I think in my mind has the perfect rear suspension because the load leveler in the back upper A frame allows for a lot of axle flex WAY more than a D1 ever had. If your loading up the RRC a lot you can still have a very soft ride and install a Defender 110 load leveler and it will carry a lot more weight . The axles will need to be up graded which is why I have a factory front and rear D60 . With the axle up can get for the D60 axles they can be built up super strong and still fit under a rover with out making a 1ton axle set up . Tony

[@johnyhawgleg]

I used to work in a spring shop making custom leaf springs and repairing/replacing bushings. Get ahold of your local heavy truck/semi truck spring shop. If you are going to be greasing this you will want a hard brass/bronze bushing in the center of the neoprene outer bushing. That will have a really good long term wear quality without having to worry about the bolts seizing in the bushing.

[@muddiexj]

Try McMaster Carr for the bushing material. They won't be cheap but if they have it you can buy it in various lengths depending on your needs and it ships quickly.

[@StormbornJKU]

The amount of beef on that trailing arm just makes me believe that the frame side mount is going to rip right off. I’d suggest getting some mounts from Barnes and cutting the factory ones off and welding on some beefier ones.

[@michaelkeefer1471]

I'm with Jeff, You need a lathe.

[@fishtacoma]

Whoo, first!

[@DirtLifestyle]

Nice! 🙌

[@rodneywhetlow1996]

McMaster carr will have that sleeve materiel

[@TwistedOff]

👍

[@mattuebelacker1963]

Hey nate love what ur doing, for the sleeves how about some smaller diameter d.o.m tubing. That stuff is made very accurately but be sure on ur measurements bcuz that bushings u were holding up looked thicker than 1/16"/ side going off the 3/4 od and 5/8 id u mentioned! Goodluck bud!

[@RealGumbyOfficial]

McMaster carries a couple options that might work for the sleeves like 89495K185, 5/8 OD and .385 ID made of stainless steal… also there a couple spring rate calculator online that can help you determine the rate of any spring you have based on the length, thickness and number of coils etc. Cheers to the best mod in offroad: suspension🍺

[@M1ST3RHYDE]

On ebay "steel tubing 3/4 5/8" under $20 with shipping from N.Carolina

[@PaulKaiser42]

I understand that you are going to strengthen the disco’s suspension with the trailing arms but (I likely missed this in your description) what are the additional benefits you get from them? When building my rig I always tried to consider building in lightness….this seems to be just the opposite 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@ramirocuentas5999]

Just make in the lathe the sleeve you need

[@greghoffstadt667]

As always. Great video. Learn a hella metric ton from you. Side bar....... I don't mind reading the comintary. But, is there a way to change the text color to something a little easier to read. It's probably me. But, was curious.

[@talon0863]

Thanks Nate, I jumped on this topic. Can you get shock oil 30% more viscous than, I don't know what Bilsteins come with, if it were 7w then go to a 10w, etc.? IDK about Bilstein but Ive been doing this with dirtbike suspensions for decades.

[@dalemcbride7299]

Happy Thanks Giving why not have the selves machined to your spec? rather than trying to buy them??

[@wcslv_6781]

Just call Barnes, and ask them for want you need for the inner sleeve.

[@Offroadcowboy]

Hi Nate, always enjoy your videos. If you still need the sleeves, I can fab them for you for the cost of material and shipping from Mount Vernon, WA. P.S. when are you going to get more XL t-shirts in?

[@mikeburris9856]

Did you try Prothane? I’ve had great luck with them in the past.

[@ZuluComander]

Found them on mcmastercarr but only up to 2 inch lengths

[@lousypirate]

McMaster Carr?

[@simon-mouse8739]

Nate, are you using extended / Longer air bags or stock? They are now available in longer lengths in case you weren't aware 👍

[@skyhook040]

I'm stretching my TJ to LJ length and pushing back my axle. What would you say would be the longest that you would make the control arms?

[@lifelinefabllc]

My suggestion is have a local fab shop just drill some 3/4" 4140 ground and polished shaft. I could do it and mail them but it would probably be cheaper and quicker if you have a relationship with a local fab shop. If you want me to do them let me know but I will have to go source the shaft as I don't have any that small.

[@DirtLifestyle]

I appreciate it! I think I have it handled now, but thanks again 👌

[@bosqueboys]

What is that clamp setup on your evolution saw?

[@stevusbeavus720]

I already have a long arm kit on my lj. This makes me want to swap them out o these and triangulate

[@dalemcwilliams8006]

For the bushing sleeves, why not just go to your local machinist and have them bore some 3/4 tool steel out.

[@whereswadlow44]

Can these trailing arms be used on the front so that you can do front coil overs as well? Looking at doing something similar on my Disco2

[@jamesvanhoose3132]

McMaster Carr had the tubing. .75 is. OD and 6.2 ID. You may need to drill out the center slightly I know. But it's the best place I can find without buying 100 feet of it. Also ruff stuff does custom bushed DOM. Maybe Barnes does too. I would with McMaster. Good luck.

[@darbythompson7020]

If your looking for a machine shop and don’t want to pay an arm and a leg to have some stock shaved down check out concentric machining in Bremerton, I know it’s a drive from Tacoma but if you truly can’t source what you want, it’s worth a call lol.

[@vincentpoole7588]

Nate. One should've increased your D2a wheelbase from 100" to 108" if the plan was to run 42 inch tyres sir ! Is this going to reduce the weight of this rather hefty Land Rover D2a ? V.

[@michaelhill7298]

I'll make it for you.

[@ArminGianni]

Honestly for the amount of work you do I would say why not buy yourself a small metal lathe. I have one and making those sleeves and simple parts don't take much and you could take tubing you have and resize the inside. Won't be too expensive but will get you off a pinch

[@toddr1124]

It sounds like you want the airbag ride, so how are you going to keep the coilover from influencing things, especially if it is sized to be independently capable? Are you going to pull the spring off of it so it's just a shock, and then be able to put the spring on if the airbag fails? If you run both systems in tandem, pretty sure that rear will be stiff as all get out.