Dont. Be. Surrounded - Back to Basic

[@Slyzor1]

9:55 Batts calling the opponent the DWORD because he cannot remember more than 4 bytes. Very sophisticated joke sir

[@stephendubetz4263]

Thanks for another video. You're doing good work.

[@dwyrin]

Glad ya like the videos!

[@nickguttmann2646]

Great content. Been binge-watching these for a couple weeks now and this is priceless info. Ignore all the haters and don't change anything about what you're doing. Please keep calling it like you see it so we can grow as players.

[@BukovTervicz]

This

[@SuperErickelrojo]

I agree that the shock value helps to remember, however, for some reason, the moves and errors that stand out most in my memory were those pointed out by Batman and Alfred.

[@toddpayton8197]

Nice game. Very easy to follow and no drama on any move whatsoever.

[@BukovTervicz]

2:17 This is a really good point

[@sonipitts]

Good game, lots of things to learn from.

[@ralph12d]

8:21 could you make a video on these types of moves and how to respond to players doing endgame way to early, maybe find 15 (or 100) different games..

[@dwyrin]

You know, thats a pretty good idea!

[@ReiAyasuka]

Yes, it's super commmon

[@davidbendig961]

being dead is a good enough reason for me not wanting to play it. if the ai wants to play it or the opponent who thinks ai moves are great... people who blindly follow the ai die all the time 'cause they are people and one missing follow up move or a reaction that is unexpected and that's usually it 😂

[@TTTJJJLLL]

Will the book be available in paperback also ?

[@dwyrin]

Yes, just waiting for final copy of the cover first. if the digial goes live without the final cover, its ok cause thats just a downloaded update. not so much a physical copy

[@anuzis]

Strange to see an opening rant about someone providing feedback on move M17 from an earlier video. As someone who hovers around Fox 5D-6D I don't consider myself as strong as Dwyrin and thus enjoy learning from the channel, but that M17 move struck me as one I'd consider playing as W in that position. It doesn't strike me as an "AI move", it is a move many humans would consider playing (as evidenced by a 3K playing it, and in my case by a Fox 5D-6D being willing to respect it as a move I would take seriously if someone played it against me, and one that I'd consider playing myself, especially if I thought I was behind and needed to shake things up). Out of curiosity I threw the move into Katrain, which estimates M17 is a 0.2 point loss from the optimal move (indicative of it being highly playable). Turning on the "Expected territory" view, as soon as the stone hits the board, AI expects it will live. That's not "just because it's AI, and only AI can make it live", but also because from a human perspective B clearly has enough open space around for W to be able to wiggle around and likely either live locally or break out, treating the stone lightly & sacrificing if needed, but likely getting value from it as it pushes against B's stronger group on the left. Overall, I have to agree with the earlier commenter's feedback that calling M17 "dead" as soon as it hits the board seems misleading. This move actually reminds me of one of the most recent pro game reviews on TelegraphGo's channel where a Korean 9P is giving 2 stones to a retired 9P and manages to win, and the non-retired 9P plays a move that looks even more certain to die than M17 here, and he makes it live, as it should.

[@josephbrowning4220]

As a 22k, I can say with utter certainty that a good strategic potentially-liveable move made by me is actually only that when played by someone who's 8 ranks *better* than me. 😁 I try to mimic what I have seen Batts say is "good play" (in opening and beginning of middle game to try to create a good learning base for me) and when I do the things that he says are good solid moves making good shapes I still often end up being beaten because I just don't have the ability to properly defend those good shapes myself (yet). Perhaps this move is something similar: dead, dead, dead when played at 3k, but for someone with your skill level "something to be considered playing."

[@anuzis]

@@josephbrowning4220 Appreciate the thoughtful response. A more accurate way to think about M17 instead of "dead, dead, dead", might be "might live in 3k vs 3k, might live in 22k vs 22k, might live in 5d vs 5d; very difficult to live in 5k vs secret 7d"

[@pi4795]

@@anuzis I don't know if it's dead or not, but I don't think that is a good moment to make a deep invasion in an area that is not that defined, and that conflicts with white's right side. I'm 3d in fox and for me looks like an easy to harass move. It's so easy to just kick and jump or lean on white's right side and profit from attacking. First white should reinforce the white side, then if black ignores we can start thinking about invading. Also, you are comparing it with a 2 handicap game between pros... where the older one got confident about his moyo and the younger played perfectly and invaded it in a do-or-die situation. This is still the opening, not a time for such kind of moves don't you think?

[@anuzis]

@@pi4795 The question should not be "whether this is the time for such a move". Part of go's beauty is that it is a highly flexible game where there are often many viable moves (20+ possible moves that all lose less than 1 pt compared to any theoretical "optimal move"), and different players with different play styles are all welcome to explore a path to success in their own way. The fact that anyone from 22k to 3k to 5k to 9k might consider playing the same move, and that doing so likely proceeds to a reasonable result for them, which is consistent with an AI review of the move as well, all should be enough to reach the conclusion that over-simplifying the move as "dead dead dead" is probably not the most accurate or helpful way to describe the move. Dwyrin could say "I wouldn't recommend this move because it makes the game more complicated, and in my personal style I'd solidify elsewhere first."; it is too much for him to imply "This is a bad move for all players of all levels, no one should consider it, & should instead consider it as dead, dead, dead." The latter is just providing an inaccurate view of the beautiful reality of go. It seems like many people in the comments are coming down hard on this move based on the result seen in the video; folks should keep in mind it was a 5k Vs a secret 7d; not the most representative of how such a move likely plays out in an even match.

[@pi4795]

@@anuzis I get your point, I actually didn't watch that video or look at the AI analysis so I'm just talking about my feeling without bias. Maybe there is a way to make it work with a minimal loss or a way to sacrifice it nicely. And I think that the criticism about the tone is positive from the perspective that this are teaching games at the end of the day for many of us... Definitely is room for improvement there. On the other hand, he's teaching basics, and putting the move in the AI, seeing that it's just -1.x and saying that is not that bad is not constructive criticism. He explains why the move seems bad based on the basics and I think that he does a good job teaching good habits and this is the important thing in the end

[@oriandon22]

first! that's fun

[@Veienn]

I don't feel like discussing a move from an earlier game is a good approach, maybe a post under the video or a separate video with full context would be better. Responding just gives an opening for the trolls and gotcha experts that want to call out the most unimportant inane details and write pages of dissertations about whether the move lives or not. And they must have an axe to grind against an internet figure. We know that the series is about basic principles of the game and not overanalyzing a single move and arguing about minutiae.

[@Iamaplatypus42]

Yeah, in my opinion, he shouldn't waste arguing with video comments in a video.

[@joristaglio]

It's wild that you're doubling down that M17 in the last video was a dumb move that "just dies" - it absolutely lives, it was a perfectly reasonable invasion, it was even an AI green move. The move isn't dead! You even deleted my comments in the last video explaining this. It seems like you're willing to go to great lengths to avoid any constructive criticism. Edit: This is not a crazy AI line. The 3kyu player found the correct followups, it was a very intuitive invasion that simply isn't "supposed to die".

[@BukovTervicz]

This channel (and most educational sources aimed under ~dan level) is not teaching "what would the ai do?" It's teaching simple, strong, proverb-based moves Ai as a learning tool is a VERY double edged sword, and will frequently recommend moves with complicated variations that -- while TECHNICALLY worth a few points more than the simple alternative -- will often get non-professionals into trouble in their games

[@joristaglio]

@@BukovTervicz Even the AI variation is totally reasonable. The invasion can either live locally or escape to the center. The 3k opponent plays the correct followup, it's all incredibly intuitive and normal. Dwyrin was simply wrong, and is continuing to double down for some unknown reason. What's unreasonable and bad teaching is to see an invasion like that and say "that move is dead". This was not an insane AI fight, this is a perfectly normal invasion and a sub-dan player found the correct followups. Dwyrin confidently told viewers it was dead, and it simply wasn't, in any way shape or form.

[@dwyrin]

If your comment got deleted, it was likely due to something you said that auto mod deleted you for, (that usually involves threats or profanity) or you forgot which account you replied on. fact of the matter is in this series we go by fundamentals and proverbs, not what the top ai move is. It is a fact that sometimes they AI will suggest you playing a complicated move thats behind enemy lines because at 10 dan level it can find a good sequence. I am not, nor am i ever going to suggest that for kyu players and low dans. the proverb here is simple: dont play behind enemy lines, and make sure your groups can get a base. If you are looking for AI top moves that's fine, but this is not the series in which to do it. Hope that helps!

[@joristaglio]

@@BukovTervicz The invasion was totally reasonable, the line is very intuitive, and the sub-dan player found the correct followups. This was not some crazy complicated AI fight, this was a perfectly normal invasion. What's unreasonable is looking at that invasion and insisting that it's dead.

[@joristaglio]

​@@dwyrin My perfectly normal comments explaining my point keep getting deleted for no reason, and tbh I'm skeptical that it's because of an "auto mod". This was not a crazy AI variation. This was a perfectly normal invasion that was not supposed to die. The 3kyu player found the *correct line* to make it live even before you backed off. I think any reasonable near-dan player should be able to survive with that invasion, and acting like it deserved to die is an overplay. It's disappointing that you refuse to accept any criticism of your wildly overconfident statements even when they're demonstrably wrong.