Pilot Vanishing Point VS Lamy Dialog 3 - An Engineer's Perspective

[@dsb1763]

The reason for the retraction of the Lamy clip is to prevent the user from putting it in a shirt pocket with the nib out. Nib out, clip not usable/ nib inside, clip is usable. German logic.

[@Doodlebud]

Well we don't know for sure the reason the clip retracts without talking to someone from the design team to understand their decision. I'm not sure if its the whole cant put the pen in a shirt pocket reason. The clip still pivots a fair amount and still allows to slip it in a shirt pocket even with the nib extended.

[@pant0sand0hat]

I had a '96 Jetta that when the parking breaks were on the lights were off, break off / lights on. I loved it.

[@AlexeyGopachenko]

Pentel GraphGear 2000 pencils use this too, they are just amazing.

[@chris_ackroyd]

Shame they couldn’t go the whole hog and get it to drop all the way flush!

[@dannygarden2292]

@@AlexeyGopachenko jerk. You got me excited for a second, thinking Pentel had released a new model.

[@timelyspirit]

I had my VP break when I dropped it at work (on carpet). The door stopped returning, so I assume the spring mechanism broke or popped off it’s retainer. Even though it was my fault, Pilot USA quickly repaired it at no cost. Really nice folks to deal with. I love my VP.

[@Doodlebud]

Oh wow thats great service!

[@meshzzizk]

I’ve heard so many anecdotes praising Pilot USA’s amazing customer service! But when, through simple daily use, my Pilot VP’s tines started to splay and stubbornly remained that way despite my best efforts at gently working them back together, Pilot not only took a month just to tell me the nib unit was “not fixable” but then charged me *more* for a new nib unit than I’d have paid to get one from a retailer like Goulet or Yoseka and returned the pen to me weeks later *without* the box from my Custom Heritage 912 that I’d packed it in. Maybe all the nice Pilot staffers were on vacation that month. 😫

[@boshkodjordjevich7424]

@@meshzzizk shame about that. I'd write them a letter. For the most part, Pilot's reputation is really the strength behind their brand. I'm sorry that did not live up to your expectations - or mine. And this puts me off a bit actually. I still don't own a Pilot pen, and almost everything I've heard is extraordinary. From the quality of the build, to the service behind the brand. I really am sorry they let your down.

[@janwilson9485]

My pilot vanishing point hasnt dried out at all over the 3 months I've had it. It sometimes isn't used for a week or two. Its a lovely pen that writes beautifully. I find the clip helps my grip and stops the pen rotating when Im writing. Great review.

[@ameliabuns4058]

my moon man is the same. way better than my lamy safari /kakuno / MP / sheafer and most pens I own in my collection :)

[@meshzzizk]

@@ameliabuns4058 I have 3 retractables in this style - a Pilot VP, a Decimo, and one of those clipless matte black MoonMan knockoffs. The shocking truth is that the MoonMan has proven to be the most reliable and robust of the lot. I take that pen everywhere and it rarely has performance issues of any kind. Incredible value for money (although QC with Chinese pens tends to be pretty hit-or-miss so ymmv)

[@StevenSilverman-yw6di]

I have a 6 VPs (3 VPs, 2 Decimos, and a Fermo). Some live in pen cases and don’t get used for months. I touch the nib to paper and voila I can then write with no issues - and for the one in the case that lives in my travel backpack, it can be 3-4 months between uses, depending on my travel schedule.

[@13noman1]

Really appreciate you doing this comparison! In my book, it's the Pilot VP hands down. I bought my first (old style) VP must be nearly 30 years ago (now in my daughter's hands) and NEVER a spot of trouble. I've since purchased a few more and had the same great experience. As for Lamy...I've been attracted to and admired the engineering/build quality of Lamy also for quite some time and splurged on the Dialog 3. My sample was prone to drying out, the "missile door" did not always close, priming the feed to restart was/is a bit of a hassle. I finally contact Lamy who graciously apologized and replaced my pen...and the replacement has gone down the same road even with "kind" inks (Waterman, Diamine non-shimmer). Sadly, my contact with Lamy USA was less gracious; they simply told me it was out of warranty but I could send it in. Instead, I pulled the nib off of it and put it on my Studio. I keep finding myself tempted by the new Dialog but twice bitten leaves me thrice shy.

[@apropostt]

I actually bought two dialog 3s (one for my wife) and had the same problem with both. I’ve yet to have any problems with the vanishing point or majohn A1 clipless I bought this year.

[@Trafficaloco]

3 engineering videos in. I am so impressed with what goes into these pens. Who would have guessed! Thank you , well done.😊

[@Doodlebud]

Glad to hear you're liking the vids

[@josharmentrout7991]

I've had my faux carbon fiber VP for over 10 years. No issues. Very nice pen and writes like butter. Those Japanese fine point nibs are incredibly small and precise. Love it.

[@heyspookyboogie644]

It’s crazy the price expectations we have as fountain pen enthusiasts. Some ballpoints can be way more complex to manufacture and yet still be much much cheaper.

[@auroragoh8323]

1 thing that i wish for refills is to be transparent, like cheap ballpoint pens refills. Quite hard to tell when do i need to change out the ballpoint refill if i cannot see the ink level in the cartridge.

[@BigHenFor]

Fountain pens are a niche product. TBH most people are happy with their ballloints and rollerballs, and they sell many, many more units of those than of fountain pens. So, being niche, you get niche prices, and get your nose pinched. Also, as a manufacturer you have to sell a lot of units to recover your setup costs for new models and designs, which is the only way to generate cash flow. Innovation costs money. And nobody is buying 2 or 3 grail pens every year. Or even collecting a lot of different fountain pens. So it is what it is.

[@PrivacyTermsCopyriii]

@@BigHenFor oh.... I may have gone a little overboard last year in that case...

[@animula6908]

We know we are a smaller market. That’s why we need to recruit to the hobby.

[@heyspookyboogie644]

@@BigHenFor of course. Not saying it’s unreasonable. And you can see the price reductions on things like the metropolitan where they also sell ballpoint versions. Not to mention most fountain pens are luxury items these days and not just tools like they used to be. But that being said, it’s not JUST market forces or even luxury. Just look at all the Vanishing Point clones that have hit the market. Clearly, the VP can be made for much cheaper while still turning a profit in less time and with WAY less sales. So a lot of the price is just artificial for profit and prestige/image. Still not saying that’s wrong, just pointing out fountain pen enthusiasts are fine with it and don’t see $160 pen as all that crazy, while ordinary people see a $10 pen as “an expensive pen”

[@BKLJ]

The interesting thing about the Vanishing point is there was already a very similar french pen, the pullman 35, that was invented around the 1930's. Definitely worth having a look, I was quite surprised at first to see how much it resembled the vanishing point.

[@matiasferrer6400]

So I’ve had my VP for about two months and have acquired other fp since but my VP is my absolute daily writer. Great & so dependable. Thank you for posting this.

[@psa7211]

I have had my Vanishing Point for around 6 months, and I couldn't be happier. Love the 18k nib, it writes so smoothly. I have let it sit for at least two weeks with no dry-out. don't know about the Lamy, I've looked but it is more expensive and doesn't look as interesting. Since I love my Vanishing Point so much, There didn't seem to be a need for the Lamy. I also agree with another comment that the clip doesn't get in the way, it just helps me keep a good writing position. Thanks for the comparison, I considered the Lamy but the Pilot suites me.

[@davidverney253]

Fascinating pens. I've just dipped my toe in the capless pond with a Majohn/Moonman A1. I'm really impressed, just so usable as an everyday pen. I just wish that for once the Japanese would copy the Chinese and do a clipless Vanishing Point.

[@Doodlebud]

Who knows, maybe they will. Lamy came out with the CC which is clipless

[@apropostt]

The majohn A1 clipless is actually my favorite right now… especially given the price and colors. The dialog 3 I have had a lot of problems with drying out. Like other people I ended up pulling the gold nib out and put it in another pen.

[@theProf_01]

My vanishing point has been reliable and consistent for about 3 years and it hasn’t had a drying out problem. I agree that the Lamy Dialogue is a good pen, but I didn’t see any point In buying one after getting my VP, especially considering its high cost. Thanks for such an in depth analysis of the two pens. I learned a lot.

[@MarshaLove0723]

I love the Dialog 3. It was my first expensive FP. Not sure why, but the Vanishing Point just never 'clicked' with me. 😏

[@Doodlebud]

..... I see what you did there 😅

[@BerndtNorten]

I agree. The VP is more practical but I don’t enjoy mine. It’s not good looking. The Lamy is a work of art

[@TheCreedBratton]

I love Lamy pens and really want a Dialog. They are just so gorgeous!

[@TeamFish15]

VP wins by far to me. One hand operation as opposed to 2 hands. VP is the true fidget pen.

[@1095tokoyo]

I have two VPs. Both have, on the first day I had them, pricked my finger and drew blood. One is from 2016, and graduated with me. Even after that, it still writes like a dream. I got another last year, to see if anything changed last year. So far, so good. I don't own a Dialog 3, but I work at a giftshop that sells both. I thought the Dialog CC, however, looked kinda like a vibrator. The 3 seems more my type now, but I'd want it with the 1.1 stub nib, not a gold one; why I can't justify it for now.

[@levon9]

VP for the win, esp since it's a one-handed operation - perfect for quick note taking (I grade a lot of papers). Add the simpler/more reliable design, and cost, for me the decision is clear.

[@randallstewart175]

As a lawyer, I continued my use of fountain pens from school into my law practice. Sometime for years, I'd shift to ball points for daily casual use. After many years, I was attracted to a Vanishing Point to provide the utility of a fountain pen and the convenience of a ball point. Although the nib was a bit stiffer than I liked, I used the VP for about a year. However, I had also developed a life-long habit when using a ball point pen of rapidly clicking the point in and out of the barrel while absorbed in a problem. So I'd hold the pen by feel and click the end plunger. Unhappily, with a VP, the pocket clip is on the nib end, so periodically, I would fool with the pen, then flip it by pocket clip and hit the plunger. However on the VP, that would be the nib, and I'd end up impaling the nib in my thumb - quite painful. After four or five events, I accepted that I wasn't going to stop doing this, so my VP went back in its box and into the drawer with the dozen or so other pens I'd bought and ceased loving.

[@FearlessPhillip]

3L here, are you selling any of your love-lorn pens? I typically use pencils (to book brief) and gel pens (for everything else), but occasionally bust out the Lamy safari.... my problem is not wanting to use up my quality paper on notes that'll soon be discarded.... my other fpen is a pilot custom heritage 92 FM nib for Journaling....

[@slibris2704]

Excellent information on applying small amount of pure silicon to Lamy Dialog 3 interior gears, awa rubber fitting to front of pen door and/also ring on rear pen body.

[@dspeers11]

Thanks for the comparison between these two pens, and the other things you post, always enjoy them. Wrt the Pilot Vanishing Point, I find them to be great pens, great nibs, etc. I always carry one for jotting down notes etc. The only problem I have had with them is that, at the top of the pen, where the button that retracts and extends the nib connects to the pen body can become loose or even completely disconnected from the body and just sort of wiggle there. I believe that Pilot will fix this, but do not know how much it will cost, if anything. I have had a number of these pens for 5-10 years. So they have been well-used, and the button has been clicked/fidgeted with ALOT. Thanks again for the videos

[@Bruceneuman]

If you have ever driven a German luxury car versus a Japanese version, the same engineering approaches follow right on through to these two pens. Both work well, although I find the clip on the Pilot to be an annoyance when writing. I also find I have better control over my writing with the Lamy. Overall, however, I find myself typically reaching for a capped pen to write with most of the time. If you want a one handed quick writing solution, keep a ball point or gel ink pen handy. Fountain pens and caps just seem to go well together both in look and use.

[@user-gl5ld9vm7i]

Thanks again DB for this great video. Love the engineer perspective. Boy, that Lamy is precision made like a well made watch!

[@Doodlebud]

They definitely took a different approach, but it is pretty slick!

[@theKashConnoisseur]

I'm glad you didn't include the Platinum Curidas. Even though it's one of the few retractable pen options, it lacks the premium feel of the other two, and the trapdoor mechanism is prone to failure. The Pilot VP is my go-to. I started with the steel alloy nib, and put in a gold nib unit a bit later. The ink capacity is perhaps the only downside, but I compensate with a couple Noodlers 308 ink cartridges. They make a perfect portable ink bottle for the VP.

[@MarcSaegesser]

Nice to see these two pens side-by-side. Aside for one complaint, I've really enjoyed my Pilot VP. The Pilot con-40 converter is horrible. The ink capacity is minuscule and it seems impossible to fill completely. I like that you can see a little bit of the converter when you open the pen so you can see when the ink is getting low. But, really, just assume the pen is about out of ink shortly after filling it. I think refilling cartridges is probably the best way to go. I really like the looks and mechanics of the Dialog 3, but the price point puts it in the same range as some other very nice pens and I'm not sure the retractable nib makes it really compete with those.

[@Doodlebud]

The con-40 does work very well, but yeah I prefer to fill cartridges to have more capacity. I don't have many issues with running out, but for those who use it as a work horse, it must drive them a bit nuts.

[@Quinkerbell_3604]

I ordered empty Majohn cartridges from aliexpress. They come with rubber stoppers and allows for a really good capacity for ink storage. Fits in my Pilot VP like a glove.

[@hriveran]

I’m lucky to have both pens and like them very much. The only thing that may have “failed” in the VP is that the nib doesn’t protrude as far as it used to. Now the breather hole remains hidden when I extend the nib. Nice review.

[@peripypo]

I noticed that with mine when I first got it, but I realized it was because I had a cartridge in, and wasn't using the metal cartridge cap. When I put the cap on it extended all the way out to the breather hole. Let me know if you had the same issue!

[@heyspookyboogie644]

My two favorite pens! Already got a matte black vanishing point. Don’t know I could ever justify the price of the dialog or even asking for it as a gift.

[@heyspookyboogie644]

Wow. Glad I saw this. Always thought the dialog clip fully retracted into the body when the nib was extended. That would be perfect.

[@pughenry1588]

Lamy Dialog wins for me. I own both and the Vanishing Point nib is far less comfortable to write with than the big Lamy nib. The weight of the Lamy is also very nice and the writing experience is much nicer.

[@derekdavis5720]

Great video your enthusiasm for this subject interests me in something that I wouldn’t ordinarily be interested in. As I’ve started journaling at work I can see the value of a capless pen although wouldn’t buy one as now trying to rotate my current pens. Looking at these 2 pens for me it would have to be the Pilot VP each and every time. If I did go for a VP I might be tempted towards the clipless orange Mahjohn even though I don’t normally do copies as the price would make it more justifiable to purchase.

[@themisterchristie]

Both are great looking pens. Lamy missed out on a little cool aesthetics. If they had put the same two lines on the side opposite to the clip, then it would maintain the consistency when retracted and extended.

[@pamelahermano9298]

I’ve never been disappointed by a Japanese pen. I’ve tried many fountain pens but it wasn’t until I tried a Pilot fountain pen that I stopped buying pens. The Pilot Custom and Prera I bought are pretty much my go to’s. don’t need anything else

[@Doodlebud]

Pilot makes a great pen

[@Thearcherfl]

Love em both aesthetically. Haven’t played with dialog. But really am interested in one now

[@AntonioBarba_TheKaneB]

I have that exact midnight blue capless (it's called "Pilot Capless" here), I love it!

[@Doodlebud]

Super cool pen!

[@M3T2W01f]

Yep, my VP dries out when I don't use it often. the nib unit also leaks and I'm not sure why. But it writes well and it's portable, so it's in my EDC.

[@pdexBigTeacher]

I have several vanishing points; they dry out frequently compared to my Lamy 2000 or Platinum 3776. If I go more than 3-4 days without writing with my VP I'll have to check the ink level and push some ink into the feed to get it going. In spite of that possibility it writes wonderfully and the vanishing point mechanism is very useful for me in a classroom.

[@robbinallan3767]

Really loved the ultra close look at the design workings. I get excited about quality workmanship as well. Your architect nib looks really well done to me even though it's not my preferred grind. I'm a fine italic girl.

[@snowmean1]

Speaking about VP failures - if you even slightly bend/damage your nib, then the very next opening will FUBAR the whole nib as it catch the case and your thumb will do the rest. Not very common, but definitely worth mentioning. For Lamy, I think the most common issue is that if you did't rotate it back fully, or it will rotate in the pocket - it opens up the ball door and pen is drying out.

[@ilhamidonmez5805]

Great job as alwalys. I sold my Lamy Dialog 3, because It is too big for my hand, especially when the nib is out...The common and often Problem with the VP is, The spring that keeps the Door shut is broken from approx. five years. That's why I'm a little bit afraid of it during use.

[@Doodlebud]

Hmm never heard of the spring wearing out, it should last an extremely long time. Maybe someone got a defective one.

[@NicholasPaulFranks]

I was thinking about this comparison just last night. I'm currently trying to decide between the Pilot Custom 823 and the new Dialog All-black!

[@Doodlebud]

The new CC in all black looks amazing!

[@Equinox051256]

Gotta say, that red ink is visually stunning!

[@Doodlebud]

Kaweco Ruby Red.... LOVE IT!

[@Equinox051256]

@@Doodlebud I'm going to have to buy some of it myself. Great vids sir! Keep 'em coming!

[@Equinox051256]

@@Doodlebud Just came today. It's gorgeous! Thanks for the suggestion!

[@paulmchugh1430]

Thank you for the compassion. I have had the Vanishing Point and the clip is just a deal breaker, being an obstruction to me handling and writing the pen. The Dialog 3 may be better but still the clip may be in the way. I may consider the Dialog CC or the Majohn (?) A1 with the roll stop.

[@ichirofakename]

That, but also the price, is why I ended up with the Majohn. My use case for a retractable pen is minor, not justifying the higher prices of the Lamy and Pilot.

[@jamespicht1128]

Informative. Thank you. I tried out both pens at a recent pen show. I'd have a hard time getting used to the VP clip; I didn't like the feel of it at all. The LD3 was more comfortable in my hand with its less obtrusive clip, but Lamy goes one better with the Dialog cc, which has no clip, only a roll stop. I preferred the look of the Lamy nib, and the look of it overall. The VP has some beautiful finishes available at a much higher price point than the basic model shown here, including some with raden and urushi lacquer, but that clip is the deal-breaker for me. The Dialog cc was far and away my favorite of the retractable-nib pens I looked at. I think the dark blue with rose-gold trim is a sharp-looking pen. I think the relative simplicity of the VP mechanism is the big score for the VP, but for looks and writing comfort, I'd go with the Dialog cc.

[@Doodlebud]

I know the exact CC you're referring to and its a BEAUTY! 😍

[@jasoncummins2361]

Recent VP owner here. LOOOOVE it. I was REALLY REALLY concerned that the clip getting in my way, but I really find that it isn't an issue. I've had zero issues with drying out unless I leave it open. I tend to use a lot of shimmer/sheen inks and it works pretty well even with a F nib. I DO notice the shimmer/sheen getting "gooey" when drying out, but that happens on all of my pens.

[@heyspookyboogie644]

I thought the VP clip might annoy me, but its actually not bad at all and especially with the tiny stub I’ve been using with it, it helps keep it aligned properly. Still like the design of the dialog more tho.

[@nitina8564]

Really nice comparison, I've never liked the way the dialog 3 looked i would choose the Pilot VP over the Lamy any day.

[@Kam-go3bc]

Yep it seems like a great pen but not very attractive looking. I love my VPs.

[@Doodlebud]

Yeah it has to catch the right type of person, and I happen to be the right type of person LOL. The VP is amazing, but the Dialog 3 really does it for me 😍

[@sathishrao7926]

I’ve a Black and Gold VP.. Its top finial has got detached from the cap and I’ll have to glue it to the cap.. Also, I’ve seen that it dries out with the use of some viscous inks.. But I still love this pen for its smooth nib and it’s one of my favorite pens and a Fermo is in my purchase list !

[@roderickfemm8799]

This video makes me want to re-consider my general dissatisfaction with the ability of capless pens to keep the nib from drying out. I have owned 2 Pilot VPs, an earlier one from the 80's to a little later one from the 90's, and a Dialog 3, and a Platinum Curidas, and they have all seemed to suffer in varying amounts compared to (for example) a Platinum slip-and-seal capped pen. Also I didn't enjoy the shape and size very much for any of those pens. But I just bought a Dialog 3 cc, which is smaller, and I'm hoping for better results.

[@Doodlebud]

Doesnt sound like you've had great luck! Hoping the CC works out for you better this time!

[@Normy12]

I have had both pens fail, in different ways. In the lamy dialog 3, I've had the gear slip, which resulted in the doorway not opening and closing. I'm not 100% sure why it happened, but it was replaced by the seller. On the Pilot VP, the cap section that has the clip on it fell off. It is held on with some sort of adhesive. By the way, when the cap section is off I can see the door mechanism directly. The nib absolutely hits the trap door on mine.

[@Doodlebud]

Oh wow the nib hits the door! What size tipping do you have on your pen?

[@ZombieWilfred]

I've had my Vanishing Point for about 3 years. It's never dried out on me and it has never needed cleaning in that entire time. I work a strange work schedule, so it's used little to none every other week, then lots every other week and has never failed me. Just refill when needed and I'm good to go. At this rate I'll never need another pen 😁 Some of the matte black finish has worn off, but it's been heavily used and just has the character to show it... I prefer the VP's mechanism because it's easy to use with one hand.

[@Doodlebud]

I've seen some where the matt black is rubbing off and you can see patches of the brass. It actually looks pretty cool!

[@ZombieWilfred]

@@Doodlebud I'm definitely one who enjoys that "honest wear but with obvious care" look that you just can't fake. Those things that you can tell have been used and taken their scuffs, but have always been properly maintained because they were actually always being used.

[@masonr1666]

Don't forget about the Pilot Capless Fermo Pen (I don't own it.) It also has a twist mechanism for extending the nib, and sells for $190. I am leaning to that one. While the "nock" is a very user intuitive interface, I can see myself pushing too hard, and having nib pop out when placing it in my pocket. The Pilot Fermo, & Lamy DIalog eliminates that concern.

[@ladyj9386]

My VP is great and has never failed - love it and I find it more comfortable than the D3. If only Pilot improved their converters (sigh). My Dialog 3 initially was glorious; however, quickly transitioned to constant hard starts and skips - Aurora Black and Noodler’s Heart of Darkness - so it is no longer used.

[@ichirofakename]

dang that's bad

[@Doodlebud]

Mine was the other way around. Hard starts pretty quick, so I just used different inks and now no prob 🤔

[@Will-jd2br]

My VP recently had the clip and collar fall off. When looking at the plate that seals the nib, there was a trench carved into it from the nib. I can shine a LED into the body and see light coming out while the plate was closed. Recently, the pen has been drying out and that explains it. The nib does contact the sealing plate and overtime it will wear. Of course, I also use platinum carbon black. It might be that the ink pigment filed away the plate. I don’t know what caused this to happen but I’ve only been using it for 3 years.

[@Doodlebud]

Oh thats interesting. What size nib point do you have? I looked as best I could and it seems like the nib doesn't touch, but maybe it does. I'm curious if maybe it does touch on larger nib points but not on smaller ones

[@marektruchlik5949]

Have both for daily writing. Somehow Lamy feels better, really workhorse. Capless I have longer as it was unique, but even with carved clip does not feel well in hand while writing.

[@novacolonel5287]

Without having watched it, the answer is that the Pilot is vastly superior. Have one since 2012 in almost daily use - now the retraction mechanism is a bit stuck, but the nib is still a dream to write. The Lamy is a lot heavier and the nib, while more beautiful, is prone to skipping while producing a less fine line. Also, the Pilot can be used one-handed without any practice.

[@channelsixtynine069]

I'd say the Lamy overshoots the retract detent, to protect the mechanism from damage. I know it is deliberate, but the grommet hole is not perfectly round and that makes it look poorly made. In addition, the end is not square to the barrel, it is ground on a slight angle.

[@varadharajannadarajah]

I bought a LamyDialog3 recently. The twist mechanism failed intermittently - The nib used to get stuck without coming out/going in fully. I didn’t want to waste my time servicing it, as I had a feel more problems were to come in due course. I sold the pen on eBay, mentioning the defect, at very low price. Got a Pilot Vanishing point now. So far - no problems.

[@Doodlebud]

Yeah the Pilot for sure has the more fail safe mechanism. You could have reached out to Lamy for a repair. My first one had an issue, I sent it to them, and after years of frequent use its been problem free.

[@varadharajannadarajah]

@@Doodlebud I sent an email to Lamy just to let them know and Lamy personally replied. The nib was a very good writer though, probably among the best writing nibs I’ve ever used. The person who bought the pen on eBay, I guess owns a pen and just wanted the nib unit and spare parts out of it.

[@needlessmustard]

Love a bit of enginerding!

[@Hexsyn]

I have bought 4 vanishing points and 1 lamy 3 dialog, and i must say that the lamy is my current only true regret in the pens I've purchased. The dialog 3 is not a bad pen, but it dries out way faster than the VP, is harder to clean because the bulb syringe i use doesnt fit into the back of the nib unit, the weight is too great for the lack of grip given the matte finish and shape of the pen grip area. Worst of all, my current current dialog is actually the 2nd ive had because my first came out of the factory with a defect in the nib extension mechanism where it was VERY gritty and the twisting motion actually extended past the intended point. The replacement i got from goulet (for free, ty goulet) did not have this defect, but the second developed an issue where the retracting clip had too much lateral tolerance where it could easily slip too far to the side to allow the clip to recess into the slot, jamming the ability to extend the nib. Finally, after a few days of use, i noticed the nib staring to noticably rotate away from alignment with the clip. I had to add teflon tape to the threads of the nib unit to fix the over-turning issue. I also had to jerry-rig a fix for the clip issue by sliding ziptie under the clip so could use a pair of pliars to bend the end of the clip down a little bit so it couldnt slide out of place... this fix ended up creating some ugly scars on the clip and barrel--now in hindsight i could have avoided this damage, but the point is that this wouldnt have been an issue at all if the mechanism hadnt failed to begin with. To cap this all off, even despite my fixes so far, the dialog 3 always has hard-start issues no matter how recently it had been used. Now, with all of my ragging on the dialog 3 aside, i do have to admit that i love the feeling of the nib extension and will readily admit that the more generous and showy nib makes me more excited to show it off to people. But that said, from a functional and cost standpoint, the VP puts the dialog 3 to absolute shame in my opinion.

[@somenameforuser]

I still remember messing around with my Lamy Dialog CC. My curiosity of how it works did not lead to something good...

[@Doodlebud]

OUCH!

[@PL70015]

Back in 'aught three, I bought my first VP, and for fifteen years, it was my EDC; my 'why would I ever need another pen?!' moment lasted ... a decade and a half. Yes - that ridiculous converter. (Fortunately, I enjoyed Pilot cartridges.) No issue with the clip. My *single* complaint about this pen: the metal nosecone tends to develop cracks. Hairline cracks may appear on either side of the clip, and ... the thing begins to chip away. (My first VP certainly took its share of falls - which explains the crazy jagged hole that developed at the 'nose'. But my second one has had lighter, kinder use, and still has hairline cracks developing around the 'trapdoor'.

[@christophermckellar1352]

Wow! Great review. Subscribed.

[@Doodlebud]

I appreciate the support

[@raymondcheng9977]

I have the earlier Lamy dialog 3, owned it for a long time. Maybe they have fixed it in newer iterations but mine jams all the time, especially if I fiddle with it. And if I do take it with me it happens even more frequently. Also the clip isn't the best to retain it in pants pocket. I had mine fall out one with 0 warning. Now it's my desk toy as it wasn't reliable enough to be a daily driver. Going with a vanishing point to see if it is better to have on me every day as my main pen. As someone with an engineering background I'd honestly say the Lamy is beautiful and it's mechanical parts are novel and beautiful compared to a click system... but in a usability perspective, the VP is the ideal every day fountain pen.

[@Doodlebud]

Too bad you're having all those issues with your LD3. The vanishing point is such a simple reliable design with almost nothing in it to fail. Classic Japanese approach to the problem.

[@oteliogarcia1562]

For me the main advantage of the Pilot Capless is one-handed operation. Can you open and close the Lamy one handed? Yes, if you press the clip against something that won't move, then twist the rear of the barrel. No need for that with the Pilot, just click. With the Lamy, most people will use 2 hands. And if you're already using 2 hands, why not just use a normal capped FP?

[@Doodlebud]

You can one-hand the Dialog 3 if you have a larger hand, but the VP is much better at this. But even if you have to use two hands for the Lamy, you still don't have to deal with a cap.

[@obarclaydetolly]

I purchased the Lamy Dialog CC, which is an unusual looking and impressive pen but for a fatal flaw in my version: when the nib retracted the ball did not close completely. I returned the pen immediately.

[@Doodlebud]

Sounds like you got a defective one, it happens

[@lyfandeth]

Drying time on a Pilot vp? Maybe 3 weeks, at 45% humidity. I'm sure the ink matters. I wouldn't press it longer. In fact I'm buying a pocket cigar humidor thinking it must help them. For technical drafting pens, a closed container with humectant in it was a MUST to keep the shellac based inks from drying up in days.

[@KarlAdamsAudio]

The nib deployment action of the Dialog 3 somehow feels like it needs an orchestral theme tune by Barry Gray...

[@frankwales]

N.I.B.

[@Doodlebud]

Thunderbirds Are Go!

[@technoraptor7778]

I do like the Lamy design way better.

[@deandesrosiers6857]

It's official, 26 mins later… I am geek.

[@nikkia9506]

I decided to take a look at the Pilot Vanishing Point as I watched, guessing that it would be more in my price range. It looks as though it's called a Pilot Capless on all the UK sites (I use Cult Pens). I'm not sure which name it would have in the rest of Europe.

[@theibecks]

I believe it’s ‘Capless’ pretty much everywhere outside North America.

[@jeffsmith8836]

I’m on the fence about the VP because I wonder how it feels having the clip between my fingers while writing. It just seems odd to me.

[@Doodlebud]

Check out the Majohn A1 which is extremely close to the VP. They also have a clipless version. Sells for like $30! I have a couple reviews on my channel

[@littletweeter1327]

i want the dialogue nib in a clipless, faceted namiki capless

[@Doodlebud]

I'm sure with the right hammer & precision strike you can jam the nib on to the VP. And if you want a faceted version, just break out the belt sander for a lovely DIY job.

[@gloriavillanueva2913]

I have the same VP. My only concern about mine is that the coating is wearing off the clicker.

[@davespanksalot8413]

I have two VPs and they've worn the paint off both clickers over the years.

[@channelsixtynine069]

My pet hate..... twist-retractable pens. I'm left handed, so when I use one of these type of retractable pens, they retract during writing, since the mechanism has a LH thread. This is opposite to say, a Bic 4-color ballpoint, where the top half of the pen starts to unscrew, since it has RH thread. Either way, I end up having to stop and reset the pen or tighten the thing up. The clips are where they are as an indicator to the user, to make sure the nib is orientated correctly for writing. The Parker 61 had an arrow, inlaid into nib hood, to indicate the orientation.

[@NatiiixLP]

The only potential for damage to the Capless/VP comes from clicking it too fast, releasing the spring too quickly, which could damage the internals in some way because there is quite a lot of force on the spring, but that's just my opinion. I prefer the VP precisely because of its relative simplicity, a very universal size and shape, and the ease of single-handed operation. The Dialog 3, I always have to open and close using both hands, it's a bit too girth and not so easy to comfortably grip for a longer period of time if you're using to holding a pen very close to the nib, where the Dialog 3 starts rounding off.

[@Calcprof]

The ultimate test it to see which pen seals better. Put in the same ink. Let pens set for 1 week then try both. Let set for 2 more weeks, try both pens, etc... My impression, without a controlled experiment like this, is that the vanishing point seals better. I first tried Lamy Azurite in my dialog CC, but it hard started after setting for an hour or so. I then replaces the ink with Pilot Iroshizuku Asa-Gao, and this are better, but not perfect. I will say that a tiny fraction of a second dip into water immediately fixes the hard start. (The nib is a M, my Vanishing Points nibs are M, B and stubs.)

[@Doodlebud]

I would also need the same nib point size as well as that can have an impact on dry time

[@vivekvs1992]

IIIRC the tipping of the vp pushes the trapdoor.. Followed by the feed plastic..

[@singhatishkumar]

I'm just curious as to why both of them have the clip on the nib part of the pen, usually its the opposite. Does it not get in the way of the grip? Love both of them. Great video!

[@dm319-j5y]

Probably so that it is carried with the nib pointing upwards to prevent ink discharges?

[@ichirofakename]

1. I find the Dialog beautiful and the Vanishing Point butt-ugly. On the other hand the VP works great with one hand, while the Dialog I guess is a little awkward one-handed. On the third hand, both companies were too stupid to release a no-clip version so I bought a Majohn A1 for a fraction the cost.

[@Doodlebud]

Well I guess with your 3 hands you could use all 3 pens at the same time 😏The new CC addresses the whole clip issue for those who are......... extra....... fussy? 🤔

[@ichirofakename]

@@Doodlebud Dang now the whole internet knows I'm extra fussy.

[@TheFanatical1]

The VP does look like a cheap clicky pen, but that's not really Pilot's fault. Cheap clicky pens are everywhere.

[@kurtsell8376]

One thing about the engineering of the Pilot VP I didn’t like (other than the nib hitting the door to open it - I don’t care if nothing can go wrong I hate it on principle) was that on mine the front section that the clip is a part of would regularly just fall off. It was mainly an aesthetic issue but it bugged the hell out of me. P.S. I didn’t stop using the pen for those reasons, I eventually did because the broad point was too thick and the medium I got to replace it didn’t work no matter how much I tried (those were my early fountain pen days).

[@327425C]

My dialog doesnt have an ink window, its one of the reasons I rarely use it. It is bulky to use. I bought it more for the mechanics then use.

[@markmorris2207]

Thanks for comparing these pens. I was not at all familiar with the Lamy. What microscope are you using? And what are the brands and colors of the inks in this video? Thanks very much!

[@Doodlebud]

Here is a video I did on the microscope. There is a link in the description with info. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4etY3uij8aenJY I can't remember the ink in the VP but in the Lamy I was using Kaweco Ruby Red

[@commenter4799]

I may have a problem with buying too many pens and pencils. I may have spend far too much time in my search for the perfect one of each. I love fountain pens, but even my expensive Online fine point makes a big bold line. As someone who thinks .38mm is pushing it, it breaks my heart, lol.

[@MsLouisVee]

I love PILOT

[@barrettwbenton]

Funny that I come across this video: way back when the Dialog 3 was first announced by Lamy, I was knee-deep in the Lamyverse: a near-complete Lamy 2000 collection, Lamy Persona (their etched-titanium FP that's come and gone under several different names, currently Imporium, I think), plus a vintage Lamy 99. I was looking *very* much forward to the Dialog 3, after the ho-hum (to me) Dialog 1 ballpoint and far-more interesting Dialog 2 roller. But the 3's release-date was pushed back at least two times, with no explanation being given. When it was finally released, and a local shop had one available for demo at their annual Pen Fair, I couldn't get my hands on it quickly enough. And…I was seriously let down, as I discovered why the thing took so long to reach production: Lamy's penchant for overengineering stuff had finally caught up to them with this pen, as the demo model exhibited an alarming looseness in the nib section as I wrote with it, and repeated opening/closing of the mechanism did nothing to change this. Apparently, this issue dogged Lamy for at least another year or so before they got things right. Meanwhile, right after that demo I asked to try a Vanishing Point just for the hell of it…and that instantly made me a Pilot fanboy from that point on, ditching my Lamy's for a VP and pair of Custom 823s. Among other things, this points out the importance of first impressions, particularly for things as esoteric as fountain pens, which next-to-none of us *need* to write with, but many of us much prefer, myself included. The D3 (and smaller Dialog cc) are truly cool designs, but in terms of actually writing stuff down, The VP works handily, and with less fanfare. (It's also been in production in various forms since 1964, which counts for something; my fave Lamy is the 2000, which hit the scene two years later.)

[@Doodlebud]

Yeah its better to work out all the bugs if possible before releasing. I've been pleased with mine but it would be super annoying if you had those kind of issues. Pilot to me is honestly the #1 or #2 pen maker.

[@ameliabuns4058]

I tried the dialog 3 inn airport and the nib was rattling I didn't like it at all :O maybe that one was bad tho. but god I love the decimo. I want one but it's too pricey. and I'm not sure if those pricey pens are really that different than cheap ones nib feel wise

[@strshooter7399]

Great video DB 👍😎🫡 I like the Lamy strictly by looks, and I’m a Pilot FP man. It ain’t cheap (The Dialog that is), but I did a quick search & found [1] closer to 2 BFs than to 3…, but Lamy has to pay for all that engineering 😉. Thanks & best wishes for joyous Holiday season(s). ** Have you ever checked out Pilot’s Justus 95 FP with its hard > soft dial? **

[@Doodlebud]

Hey great to hear from you! I haven't tried out the Justus 95 with the adjustable nib. It is something I've always been curious about hmmmmmm.....🤔 Great! Now you got me looking at them online! 😡💸💸💸

[@strshooter7399]

@@Doodlebud I know, I know ... too many pens, not enough $$$ ! Who got me started in this dark habit? I think it was a guy named Sheaffer?? ;-)

[@mgtogno]

Pilot invented the capless model after the world war, for soldiers who came back home disabled, so that they could use fountain pen with one hand. I think this is a very neat detail, because often we dont think about all types of people who love fountain pens, back in the day, this pen model might have been the first click pen model in japan, as ballpoint pens might not have been so easily accessible in japan at that time..

[@TheFanatical1]

I love the Pilot but having seen this I must hand it to Lamy. The clicker is (aside from being a clicker, and therefore spring-dependent) too easily accidentally depressed. Also holy shit that nib completely surpised me, was definitely expecting it to come out the other end.

[@mattmays9063]

I had to double check to make sure I wasn't on AVE 's channel. Nice break down.

[@oteliogarcia1562]

I think Pilot also has a retractable that uses a rotary mechanism. It is (was?) called the Fermo.

[@StevenSilverman-yw6di]

Also, and it’s minor, the VP is 18k nib and Lamy is 14k. You also can save 50 usd by buying the VP from Japan - due to Pilot US not being involved and the yen v dollar exchange rate.

[@daviduchiha9930]

Hey doodlebud how about Montblanc Boheme ? Will do a video about it and the engineering of that pen . Please let me know thank you

[@Doodlebud]

I don't have one of those & they are pretty pricey. I does have a cap to seal but just a twist action for the nib to come out

[@lyfandeth]

I also did something incredibly unjust to my Pilot, and sent it back with a letter sheepishly confessing "mea culpa" while begging their aid. About ten days letter, a complete new pen arrived in the mail. I don't feel so badly about the price now.

[@MsLouisVee]

Thanks for your reviews on the ICBMs😅

[@MrKurtank]

This was great and I totally heard myself say I'd pick up that Lamy as a little xmas present upgrade from my old Safari...then you mentioned the price. Yikes! In these straightened times it's even too much to drop as a hint. But I thank you for the information, I love these sorts of channels, SUBB'd!

[@cowgirljane3316]

$430 for a fountain pen?!!!! It better be able to make the bed, cook breakfast AND do the dishes.

[@mradamdsmith]

02:24 - I need to make that my notification sound.

[@getmartincarter]

Both pens offer a far more complex and expensive engineering solution to fountain a pen with a cap that seals. Like the piezo electric butane cigarette lighter as an improvement to the BIC flint lighter , is either pen an improvement over simplicity . I love the Lamy Dialog 3 as it looks elegant but is it an improvement over a Lamy Safari Lx in black ? Keep it simple

[@Doodlebud]

Caps are great, but its also part of human nature to try new things, innovate, and see what else can be done. Having the click action of the VP is super handy for meetings, just like the convenience of a click ballpoint / rollerball. Lamy didn't want to copy so they came up with their own unique method & design which is really cool. I still do like a cap for a pen, but a bunch of though and R&D were put into these and I think they were done very well.

[@RitaRobatti]

Do they have the same ink capacity? I find the VP converter too small

[@janwilson9485]

Exactly the same

[@Doodlebud]

I haven't measured it but I'm sure with the right google inquiry you can find someone who checked it out and have compared. Maybe at some point I can do some ink volume testing

[@MarshaLove0723]

Go with refilled cartridges instead of converters. Specs (according to Goulet Pens): - Pilot cartridges: 0.90 ml - LAMY cartridges: 1.28 ml

[@feraltrafficcone4483]

I way prefer the Lamy over the Pilot based off of the opening method. The Lamy is way more satisfying to me, and the clicker on the Pilot is a bit too long, and I know for a fact that it will open in my pocket many many times in a day Good lord the Lamy is almost $400 ($389 to be exact)