Dr Alan Reveals EVERYTHING That Happened w/ Panda! | Lights Out Episode 36

[@BalianBlue_]

Honestly him getting pushed out the smash scene was for the best. Not for the scene but for himself. Look how much healthier and happier he is. Twitter is a cesspool.

[@squidinku1614]

It is unbelievable to me that the whole community wants to point zero blame towards Ludwig and Moist Critical when they were the ones using their large audience to spearhead the Panda boycott

[@lalehiandeity1649]

The competitive Smash community has the intellectual capacity of Jonestown.

[@dralan17]

I appreciate you having me on EE. I'll be honest, I was dreading breaking my silence and disturbing the inner peace I've been been able to attain after so much. I was ready for people to attack me but you, Light, and Cosmos made an environment that was welcoming, positive, and open. That meant a lot to me and I had a good time. Thank you again.

[@Braiyan8972]

Hoping the best for your future endeavors brother

[@djestoussaint8968]

I'm so sorry for all the hate that has been sent your way. im glad youve grown and found peace inside yourself. thanks for clarifying on this podcast and i have a new found respect for you and panda. to the better things in the future!

[@Wilsey.]

Thanks for all you did for the smash community man 🙏

[@Elix_Seven]

Thanks for doing this! It's great to hear you're doing well!

[@thatonedudeyousawb4]

I’m sorry things shook out the way they did Doc, I was a big fan of panda and I keep myself away from the drama in the smash scene so when I found out about Panda shutting down I was devastated. I hope you have continued success in your other endeavors, and if you do chose to come back into the gaming scene, even if it isn’t smash, I hope it goes amazing!

[@michaelcottrello]

Imagine a future where Gimr just took the L from Nintendo without needing to drag Panda down with them

[@lunar3055]

That would take Gimir to not be a petty human being

[@lalehiandeity1649]

Imagine a present where the competitive Smash community was capable of rubbing more than two brain cells together.

[@BillytheEntertainer]

Cosmos: I wanted to be the best Smash player in the world Dr Alan: Then why were you playing Inkling? Cosmos always catching strays 😭

[@DanielosPizza]

Yeah Alan finally got his chance to be the real bully he was made out to be😝

[@phypesmash6154]

He was asking for it at this point LMAO

[@joeycarmello]

Extremely impressed with Cosmo asking him directly for feedback on his sponsor

[@ogkboy5029]

I learned a lot of new things during this hour and a half, but learning about his mom’s assistance probably hit me the hardest

[@DanielosPizza]

Yeah that one probably hurt a lot

[@kyleflournoy7730]

For real. The idea of being in any way mentally stable after losing your mom's life savings is a show of resilience that I have seen from very few people in life.. It also just goes to show the scale of business and how dangerous it can be. She lost 35 years of savings of an engineers salary off of a single month of panda operating expenses, probably just thinking she was gonna get a quick little 5% bump on a two month turn over. Smashers really do be ruining lives out here

[@Jagm3854]

That one hurt my soul

[@JusChez]

Working for Panda was a DREAM and I hate what happened. I'm very glad to see Alan OK and this episode was crucial.

[@Parthian6]

Thanks for putting this out there. It was pretty disgusting seeing people digging up your old controversies in an attemp to discredit you after your announcement of bringing Alan on. This scene needs people like yall who aren't afraid to go against the bandwagon and look deeper into the many muddy spots of the community's past and present. Keep it up!

[@Erteywie]

lol, of course twitter kids did that shit.. and let me guess. it was EE checking out a girl, schooled, or some other shit completely unrelated to him anyways. Twitter destroyed the smash scene since covid anyways

[@Parthian6]

@@Erteywie You can say Twitter worsened the scene significantly but it was always rotten to the core... Im a biomedical engineer and what I would compare it to is growing tumor cells in an already moldy flask. The results aren't going to be pretty and it's best to throw it all out.

[@EEvisu]

Thanks! Some people just choose to be negative all the time, this was an update I wanted to do and Im glad it lead to a respectful and deep convo with the crew. Also if anyone doesn't take my apologies for some past stuff that's fine, if they can't see by now it won't stop me from making content I like and casting events, too bad lol.

[@BurgerSandwich]

Where did he announce this??

[@Parthian6]

@@EEvisu You know better than me to not take that shit to heart. Most of this community, myself included, is too young to know how easy it is to make mistakes in life. That's why you see all this insane cancel rhetoric online, people take advantage of the righteous rage of those who haven't grown up and made their own mistakes yet in order to push their own agenda. You were just unlucky to have your mistakes broadcast to the whole world for everybody to point and laugh, and after hearing this podcast it seems there are a lot of MFs out there praying on your downfall. Staying above all these people without stooping to their level as you currently do is the right way and I hope I can replicate that when I end up making my own mistakes.

[@aisuiro.cellist]

This was BY FAR my favorite episode yet. Dr. Alan was clearly very enthusiastic about what Panda could’ve done for the community and I don’t think I’ve been this engaged listening to someone explain their ideas like, ever. GREAT episode!!!!

[@MarioSMG64]

“What’s the name of the guy from Phoenix Wright?” I think we need to check on Light

[@nero7862]

Someone HAS to remake the danger gauge that shit sounds so cool

[@kyurei4478]

There was even a tournament where they measured the cardiac frequency of the players in real time but I don't remember the name.

[@randomnobody660]

Honestly conceptually it sounds almost simple. The percent and stock count is easy enough to get. You can copy the architecture of some object detection e.g. YOLO to get character positioning. Then after the problem of estimating kill potential given character percentage & positioning in a given matchup sounds like it could be just a line (or curve) of best fit problem. Obviously in reality it probably won't be that simple, but to a degree so long as the general vibes are correct it doesn't even need to be particularly accurate to be helpful. Alternatively if you are resource rich and time poor, you can always just create a sufficiently convoluted model, feed it gameplay footage, and make it try to predict when stocks will end. If that model ever converges, which i get it probably won't, you'll have something quite special.

[@maxspecs]

Tekken 8 has it in its replay viewer.

[@JungusBungus]

I know Alan won’t read the comments, but one of my coworkers at my current job was a panda employee before this and she PRAISED Alan endlessly. If Alan reads this, know atleast that she’s doing well, her background with panda DID help her land a good job. She now works for a tech company specifically Dr. Alan would be really familiar with. I’m devastated about what could have been, but glad Alan’s name is getting exonerated.

[@michellebrianna4280]

This episode makes me feel numb, man. Hearing all that went wrong, all those that were hurt, dreams that didn't, and never will, come true. Thank you all for the episode, fellas.

[@charles-antoinemartel-roy]

I honestly shed a tear when Alan spoke about his mom fronting the money to pay his staff and how it was all lost because of the controversy. That day, the Smash community proved that they didn't deserve someone like Alan and it's heartbreaking to realize.

[@michellebrianna4280]

​@@charles-antoinemartel-roy As soon as I finished typing the comment, that section came up and broke me.

[@ScourJful]

The crazy revisionist history is insane. Alan didn't address anything that was confirmed like how he spent a year dogging on other long time members of the community like BTS and VGBC or how he blamed Ludwig. He provided no proof yet multiple sources corroborated that yes, Alan was a dickhead to so many people in the scene and tried to screw them over. This podcast just let Alan say that everything bad about him was a lie and he told a sob story. He provides zero proof that it was all a lie yet there are still many people in this community who have been there since day 1 and sacrificed so much to get the scene as big as it is state that their experiences with Alan were negative. Genuinely can't believe people feel sympathy for a guy who avoided all the actual legitimate criticism, told sob stories about his failures somehow being other people's fault, and then blaming Ludwig for hosting a tournament when Ludwig was trying to support a community that got dealt two huge blows. Sorry Ludwig wanted to support people who were screwed over because Alan screwed others over? I really don't have sympathy for someone who seemingly has an overwhelming negative perception from valued, longtime members and can't provide a single piece of solid evidence to disprove what was stated. Again, Alan is just trying to garner sympathy and the best way to do it is on a podcast that is too spineless to ask any relevant questions.

[@1NameGoesHere]

@@ScourJful So like, most people in this community? Let's be real, at this point, not a lot of people in the community can be trusted, so better invest in something else.

[@kevinmichel6320]

​@@ScourJfulregardless of how you feel about Dr Alan's actions in the past, things that were said without evidence and so on, can we at least all agree that doxing him and sending death threats to everyone involved is bad? Or do you need proof of that too?

[@oopat8349]

Alan came in here all scholarly and shit mf this is lights out 😭

[@EEvisu]

LOL, MFer made me wanna start reading lmao

[@LuSiDious]

🤣🤣🤣 *Insert Boondocks clip here*

[@restaurantrandy]

I've been a fan of the podcast since episode 1, but y'all being able to put this together really made an impact on me and made me realize just how amazing this podcast really is. I look forward to every upload, keep up the phenomenal work!

[@BombzofJager]

Ludwig 100% still runs that tournament if they ask him not to.

[@joey5745]

39:55 The “Down with Lud” guy is the same dude who said “Down with Panda” last year. Probably sent the death threats too. Y’all need to stop being toxic,

[@EEvisu]

truth!

[@TKbreezy]

Huge episode. Keep it going my guy

[@Iyokuu]

High key, this needed to get put out and I'm so glad you guys and Alan got around to recording this. Smash community steadily fumbles their own bag, but this was easily the WORST fumble of their entire lifetime.

[@joey5745]

1) I still miss the Panda KZbin, and the fun daily content it provided , 2) Marrs got a lot of respect from me for sticking with Panda and not being a sheep, (or fearing for his life) 3) Don’t attack VGBC, even if you think they are in the wrong, it serves no purpose, it’s Toxic and uncalled for, and it won’t bring back Panda, 4) If you want Panda back then support LG, or make your own company that has similar ideals, 5) Everyone should go back and rewatch the Scuffed World Tour, for context and to reflect, 6) I believe Ludwig did schedule his event purposefully at that time. It was no accident, Alan was just being polite and not trying to start anything because attacking ppl doesn’t fix anything. 7) Dont attack Ludwig it’s not helpful and it doesn’t solve anything, 8) Alan should’ve made an open Q & A stream to help inform ppl of the truth. Obviously this is extremely difficult when you got an angry mob attacking you, your family, and your employees. 9) Dont DOX ppl, regardless of what they’ve done, 10) Anyways great episode, now book Gimrr, lol,

[@defectivesickle5643]

The 'don't attack people' really needs to be said more. I see a lot of people trying to 'burn the Smash community' not out of pure spite, although some people do do it out of spite, but in hopes of some sort of 'clean slate', which honestly will just never come no matter how hard they try

[@r3dx93]

No one's listening to you

[@marioj2425]

Nah it was an accident for Ludwig. Obviously he picked that day for a reason, but he will have had 0 idea the effects that tourney would have on the org and the staff. He's not attacking Ludwig because he didn't know. Lud wasn't trying to cause literal life savings to vanish he was just trying to do something for the community in trying times so yeah he purposefully made it so that panda finale couldn't run, but he probably didn't realise all of the money that would go away with it otherwise he might not have ran it on that day.

[@lild6167]

Thank you for putting Dr Alan so we can hear his side. Thanks EE for having the balls to put the people you want on your show

[@Gerud0]

EE has done so many controversial interviews but he always stays genuine I love watching this dude so much because at the end of the day we all human

[@EEvisu]

my man, ty!

[@colinhoeg4728]

Yeah him and TK has been real ones since day one. I might not always agree with their takes, but I've always respected them being just genuinely good dudes and them always being for the community.

[@AndreasSaag]

Wish we could send this episode 1 year back in time for the whole scene to see

[@AndoMD]

One of the biggest mistakes Dr. Alan made was thinking the primary population in smash (uneducated kids) would be reasonable/analytical thinkers.

[@Zitrate]

​@@F1rstNameLastName Cool, so being upfront and honest that it's not possible for SWT and Panda tournaments to be on both circuits is "strong arming" due to Nintendo's loopholes and stating his hunch of the unlicensed worldwide circuit getting their license in 2 months is impossible when it took him 3 years for a NA only circuit is just too threatening! Then SWT operated without a license, so got denied, then tried again but had 0 security so no license so no operation lmao

[@danih.5675]

I wanted to be part of panda so bad. I created a new youtube for smash, I started practicing more rigorously, getting coaching, winning locals, started going to majors. then everything happened and it killed my smash motivation as a whole. I still play casually but I believed panda was the future of smash and its just sad. Thank you allen for all you did, and I'm sorry for how it ended

[@dmz7696]

You can tell he had so much hope and passion for the Smash community by the way he talks about it. It’s sad to see how it all unfolded.

[@PhanzGFX]

This episode made me so sad for what Panda was cooking.... the controller, the danger gauge, the events, the pg stats coaching.... all of it lost to time. Also real unfortunate for Lud, no hate to him or anything but man thats tough. Im glad Alan pulled up to talk about all this, just wish the community would lose this "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality. We lost some real good stuff here :(

[@joey5745]

The thing I miss most about Panda were the daily KZbin videos, such a fun series,

[@cover7195]

Can't agree more with you. I hope the community can learn from their mistakes and that the next time something similar happen, we can have a more calm and mature approach to the situation.

[@fancyclown3593]

The controller 😂😂😂

[@lalehiandeity1649]

Ludwig is just as guilty as the rest of the community for turning against Panda.

[@keaton3258]

This is crazy to hear. The best thing to ever happen to smash, gone, because the community reacts to controversy with such blind hate and misunderstanding. He truly wanted the best, and it's all gone because the community didnt give people a chance to speak and communicate

[@hwile]

From what I heard on another q&a (hungry box reacted to it, don't remember exactly what it is), I think a lot of it was communication. During the interview, Alan said things that directly contradicted what he had out out earlier, probably adding to people thinking he was lying. In addition, it seemed like a lot of other people in the community just got the wrong idea of what Alan was saying (assuming everything he said between these two sessions is truthful, and other people being truthful last year). Not sure if he was trying to not outright say certain things (like SWT inevitably being cancelled for a lack of license), but I think in doing so, he gave off a bad impression. Like, I can understand how some of what he said may have come off as threatening, and at the same time seem not only threatening but nefarious/scheming since it seemed like to the public, he was projecting this nice air and then seemingly turning around in private meetings and "threatening"/implying certain things.

[@watercrystals9744]

>didn't give people a chance to speak and communicate bro alan had several days where he decided to play LoL all day which is why people started quitting panda in the first place because the company was doing nothing to quell the negative publicity, only for alan to come out after those few days with a corporate PR lawyer speak post which felt like a complete slap in the face to everyone

[@colinhoeg4728]

Imma be honest I think GIMR on some dirty shit. This is the second thing I've seen on him bein on some shit and he has yet to talk about it on his channel. Shit like this drops and he stays dormant for months lol. I udually dont judge folks that aint in my circle. But Idk I just got a shitty feeling about that dude.

[@lalehiandeity1649]

@@watercrystals9744Dude, it takes time to get statements together. That’s why VGBC didn’t put their statement out immediately after Nintendo called them.

[@DonkEssb]

What can I say this is an EE classic!!

[@fartenthusiast-zl2qv]

It came out 30 min ago lil bro how did you watch it already

[@grimxdisstracks3178]

@@fartenthusiast-zl2qvit was live streamed on twitch.

[@Shabalabadingdong69]

probably watched it live on twitch lil bro

[@fartenthusiast-zl2qv]

@@Shabalabadingdong69 shut it virgin!

[@Slarti27-gy1xj]

Smash was at its best when Panda was running. The fallout of their cancellation basically turned everything to ash. Even if Panda Circuit pushed out others, I'd still prefer that because then we'd still have something nice - rather than a mountain of ash.

[@pk-nen]

the "HELL YEAH" fucking killed me lmfaooo

[@EEvisu]

I DIDNT MEAN IT LIKE THAT LOL

[@Weebfox]

Now THIS is a guest I wasnt expecting to see on the pod, but lowkey sick to see him on! Thanks EE for always being 100% true with the pod and not being afraid to include people that feel right in it, love the genuinity Edit: I'm heartbroken now having watched the whole episode of what we could have had

[@hwile]

I miss Panda (and wish that no matter what happened with Alan, Panda had continued to be a pillar of smash) and also am regretful of what could have been, but keep in mind that could be exactly what Alan wants, for you to not focus on the fact that no one is corroborating his statements and that he has no evidence (well, he says he does but isn't sharing it). All I want is a clearer picture of what happened, and while this (and his visionaries interview + Q&A) has muddied the waters, he could clear it by sharing those recording he has. I am withholding judgement for now, but full disclosure I am still leaning against him seeing as multiple people corroborated that Alan's behavior was... less than stellar.

[@1NameGoesHere]

@@hwile Eh, to be fair, it seems like there are people who can back up his claims. For example, Coney has hinted a lot of big things Panda had in the works. Besides, based on what and how he explains things seems to check out when dealing with business transactions. Not to say Alan is a complete saint. Who knows? He could be an asshole. What I can tell you is he appears to be one of the few in the community to have his head on his shoulders compared to others, and quite frankly, him and his team partnering with Nintendo is a fair testament to that claim. I understand if people don't trust Alan, but these other TOs, and quite frankly, the community itself seem untrustworthy anyways, so if you're hard on Alan, you NEED to be harder on the community. Something I noticed when this was going down was how people were trapping him (intentional or not) in such "gotcha" questions. For example, I remember HungryBox asking Alan in an interview somewhere along the lines of "Do you truly have faith in Melee being sustainable?" Now anyone with some sense would know you have to be VERY careful and pull some serious PR answer when dealing with a cult like the Melee community, so it's reasonable to see why Alan would be VERY careful with his words (Could it be worded better? Sure.), but let's say we don't have to worry about mincing words and be real. While you CAN be profitable with anything, just think about the following: How many (normal) people, especially parents, upcoming players, companies, etc. around the world ACTUALLY care about Melee vs Ultimate? When Alan says something like "Well, Melee can be profitable if we REALLY work on it, but it's much harder to do, and most people are paying more attention to Ultimate, so it would be more profitable to focus on what people are talking about more," he's not lying. I literally turned on the TV and on the news, there was a give away for a Smash Ultimate Nintendo Switch bundle, not Melee, Ultimate. You walk into a Best Buy, it's almost 100% guaranteed if Smash is being advertised, it's Ultimate. What the Smash community, especially Melee, took out of that answer was, "Oh, see? He just doesn't care about Melee and is just trying to monopolise Ultimate using his license he got from daddy Nintendo, who is our enemy by the way." I often like sharing these stories and controversies to my friends outside of the community since I feel these are the people you REALLY need to convince about taking the community seriously, and the general consensus from them seems to be these other TOs straight up just felt insecure and threatened by Alan, who was not only a doctor but was also managing a business and managed to work out some sort of deal with Nintendo that these other TOs just couldn't achieve or did not bother to try and achieve. Who knows though? What I can tell you is if you think Alan is untrustworthy of getting the "truth" from, then you're straight up just not going to get the truth period since the community is just as untrustworthy.

[@j.prt.979]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@hwile?? He has evidence and he did share it. In his original statement. It was 31 pages long and very raw due to the immediate circumstances but you should probably read it. Why would he prove himself further if he wants inner peace and nothing to do with the community anymore like he said? It’s just a well of negativity he’d be stepping into. He explained it at the end of the episode. I think the worst mistake Alan made was miscommunication. I didn’t even realize the vision he had for Panda as a bridge between Nintendo and the community, and I don’t think the other TOs did either. They saw it as him encroaching on the Smash community and teaming up with Nintendo to do so while they were (rightly) suspicious of Nintendo. But this was actually Nintendo changing their stance toward the community through a stable channel. He really needed to communicate that to the scene. But he and Panda have undoubtedly been maligned beyond reason and a lot of TOs acted very unprofessionally. Like he said, business is hard.

[@haydenschaff8179]

Thank you to Dr. Alan and thank you to the Lights Out crew. This was a great episode. I finally got to “meet” Dr. Alan, and honestly, he might be my long-lost hero after spouting off all those innovative ideas. A shame to lose all of that creative technology and thinking he was a part of. But I’m glad we got to hear the ideas and dreams from him. Even if they can’t be reality, I smiled at the vision. We really lost a lot because the Twitter mob was our voice, huh?

[@TraumaSSB]

This episode blew my mind and made me incredibly sad at the same time. Good to see that Dr. Alan is doing well but it broke my heart hearing about everything that could have been with the smash scene. I hope Charlie watches/listens and makes a video about this because this needs as much publicity as possible.

[@5gods]

A lot of the Melee players formerly sponsored by Panda haven’t been the same since the org disbanded

[@lukemagnotta7338]

Yeah you know when the best player in the world can’t find a sponsor something’s up

[@MasterAbeer101]

Here in Lights Out we love to get a little crazy with collabs. Interesting and excited to see what Alan's got to say

[@elijmin2]

Hey EE. I think it would be really cool to have a Japanese top player on the podcast alongside a translator as well ofc. Consider looking into this! Always loving the Lights Out episodes! #Respect

[@mathwizard296]

Love the speed of these uploads it's been so much good content thank you EE!

[@BlazeArceus777]

Really sad that the Panda Controller is forever lost 😭😭😭

[@PhenylSSBU]

Dude ong, I pledged for one during the kickstarter phase and knowing it may never come cuz of panda’s situation sucks. I wish we could in some way get the idea done, with or without panda. 💯

[@citrusblast4372]

i wo der if theres someone out there with like a prototype

[@anonwalkerr]

hopefully they can find a way to restart the project or some other company gets inspiration after seeing how much money it raised. there's so much interest in it

[@TerenceTanyi]

I personally will revive it in the future. Screenshot this comment. 11/21/2023 @10:56pm

[@KobunLaunch]

Coneys mentioned on stream multiple times that a team DOES still have all the controller stuff. Whether or not they do anything with it is up in the air

[@robertduffin1]

The way he talks this whole episode makes me feel like he's still fighting off the demon of his public perception I really hope he continues on his zen journey and finds more inner piece Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance is a masterpiece btw Go read it

[@MarioSMG64]

I’m really looking forward to this, been almost a year since everything blew up, and it’s still a pretty big question mark in the scene.

[@wavyent.musicvideos]

Exactly lol. Nothing was really said in this podcast

[@MarioSMG64]

@@wavyent.musicvideos Did we watch the same podcast? A bunch was said.

[@hwile]

@@MarioSMG64a bunch was said, but nothing was really cleared up. Especially with the lack of evidence, just a bunch of he said, she said. There was a bunch about Panda's plans, a lot of him saying he has evidence to prove people wrong, but no actual evidence. He's a doctor, a man of science. And the most important part of science is evidence.

[@heyhackurs]

​@@hwileWitnesses when their testimonial is thrown out of court because "it heckin lacks evidence, why didn't you photograph and timestamp everything!!"

[@hwile]

@@heyhackursyea, but when it's multiple witnesses saying the same thing against another, WITH evidence to back them up. Wow, I wonder what a jury would choose. Also, he isn't a witness, he's the suspect in this case of your metaphor. Also #2, he says he HAS evidence, but won't share it. That sounds sus as hell. "We have a audio recording where the suspect says he is going to rob the bank, but we won't share it, the jury just has to take our word for it." Assuming he's telling the truth, this kind of lack of clear communication/openess is the same thing that caused all of the TO's to feel like he was threatening them. I guess a better example would be "we have recordings directly disproving witness testimony, but we didn't submit them into evidence"

[@DANCERcow]

Lol beyond the summit charging $1,000 for a license to do a watch party and demanding that you can't monetize footage even if it falls under transformative content and fair use and Nintendo is the villain? Hahahaha Nintendo does non of this

[@npclucario7005]

Man, I feel more and more bad for how everyone seems to be ragging on Cosmos constantly now, bro deserves a break from it man

[@EEvisu]

we love cosmos lmao

[@npclucario7005]

@@EEvisu Ik, I just want the mans to get some Ws y'know, feels like every guest yall have had on lately has had him catching strays

[@RainbowAceOfSpades]

How the Smash community treated Dr.Alan and Panda is the biggest act of self sabotage the Smash community has ever done. A total tragedy and the Smash community is to blame. Glad to see Dr. Alan coming out of this renewed and well.

[@citrusblast4372]

Truly a historical blunder

[@rambo3rd471]

This is why people with followings really need to not let their emotions get the best of them. We can misunderstand people's intentions very easily, but to cancel your event due to uncertainties, then throw Panda and Dr. Alan under the bus to take the fall was truly vile. I know Dr. Alan and everyone else doesn't want to bring up new flames, but I wish Gimr would at least acknowledge what he did. We also need to do better to not react and jump upon breaking news and exposes without waiting for evidence from both sides. This only leads to destruction.

[@RainbowAceOfSpades]

@@rambo3rd471 Absolutely. I don't understand why the Smash community put Gimr under more scrutiny for the problematic things he has done ie. the lack of security in events and health & safety considerations. There's also that one old tweet where the post listed specific accusations about Gimr that all but one came true so far, the last one being Gimr SA'ed someone. Not saying he did anything along those lines, but there was no attention on it or desire to further investigate about it.

[@eico542]

@@RainbowAceOfSpades See all this shit is what starts this psycho cancellation, harassment, bandwagon hate shit that happened to Alan and Panda in the first place. Stop, if youre not involved dont spread stuff. It would be a damn shame to see the community repeat this situation all over again.

[@RainbowAceOfSpades]

@@eico542 knowing the Smash community, it will. Somehow Luminosity will take a hit, I can see it. I hope I'm wrong.

[@lokks2130]

VGBC/Gimr deliberately made a post with the intent of causing mass hysteria against Panda and Alan and have somehow managed to dodge any form of accountability for the repercussions on him, everyone at Panda and the community as a whole. Cold actions motivated by greed, and in my opinion, jealously over a company that made more and was more successful than their own.

[@tumultoustortellini]

I know Alan said that we shouldn't target VGBC or the negative TOs, but if they were fine killing, for all intents and purposes, smash's savior, and never taking accountability, what happens when another Dr. Alan comes around, if there are any other Alans out there? We'd be better off knowing and removing the bad from the batch, rather than letting them ruin what's left of the harvest.

[@lokks2130]

Yeah, you can't just overlook that type of thing. Not that I consider Alan a saviour, but the damage was too much. They should be held accountable.@@tumultoustortellini

[@psychokinrazalon]

The Smash community is a giant circle of nepotism, the evidence of which is even clear and present among the Lights Out crew.

[@iamabot607]

I know that a "f GimR." mindset isn't what the community needs. However its mind boggling that he has come out of this whole situation relatively hands clean.

[@sladepurp]

That's what I'm saying. Him and Ludwig and anyone else who made a fuck ton if videos/money on this drama and perpetuating rage should be shunted from the community.

[@moiav-nj6zr]

@@sladepurpthe most hilarious thing is that the smash community didn’t want a monopoly to occur yet I’m pretty sure it’s Ludwig, mo1st, and Luminsoity Gaming that are the monopoly now. Everything else is dead.

[@ladyinwight]

@@moiav-nj6zr do you know what monopoly means? you said three things lmao

[@moiav-nj6zr]

@@ladyinwight it’s an exaggeration but honestly why even bother with the terminology given the situation and how pathetic it is lmao Fine, instead of a corporation leading the smash community has frat boys instead

[@Timaeus3]

Very eye-opening and sobering at the same time. This is definitely one of the best episodes of the podcast.

[@sinfinite7516]

Man I want to live in the world where Panda didn’t die 💀

[@just.Harley]

Light wants a whole ass smash trailer revealing dr alan into the episode

[@missy7871]

I would love to see Dr Alan and other panda staff return to the scene in some capacity but I know so many are not worthy and they deserve better than that 😔❤ still, glad to see him speak out. Great job getting this together EE. You always try and give a fair shake to people many would not. 😇

[@Technicals]

Great job getting Alan on the podcast EE. Gonna enjoy watching this

[@5hyguy42]

😎

[@EEvisu]

thanks brotha!

[@Pslamist]

Thanks for reporting the way you do, Tech.

[@fupalover]

When are you making another vid?

[@lalehiandeity1649]

@@PslamistHis condescending, holier than thou attitude doesn’t do him any favors. That’s what makes thefranchise the better sleuth.

[@nathangrim4420]

this was a tough episode for me. As someone who was never anti alan and was super stoked for the panda cup, I like don't want to hear the ins and outs of what short sighted people cost the community. It's like reopening a wound that I had tried my best to forget about.

[@Adelso22]

The only podcast I’ve ever heard in my entire life, from start to end. Bring him more often. He embodies quality.

[@chito510_]

1:20:29 my heart dropped when i saw this omg

[@nuibaba280]

god...

[@Middaylantern]

Turns out Marrs was the realest one of all. My man never flamed Panda and stuck to business. Prayers that the truth will correct the past. Godspeed Dr. Alan. Cool dude and an inspiration.

[@BrandonPlaysStuff]

Man, honestly really ashamed of my behavior. Definitely was on the "fuck Alan" train back then. Viewing this episode really changed the way I looked at Alan's character. Sad to know that our behavior played a major part in destroying the Cup.

[@ScourJful]

You shouldn't cause Alan didn't disprove anything. He just said, "They're lying," with no evidence. At least with the claims against Alan, they were made by *MULTIPLE* members who have either been supporting the community at their own expense long before Alan did or they are significantly IMPORTANT FGC organizers like BTS. Cause at the end of the day, two separate entities/organizations and others have stated their work experience with Alan. And all of it was negative and awful. Alan's defense here was to say they're lying with no proof of that, and he told a sad story about what could have been and how he suffered. Which wouldn't have happened had he not displayed such shit behavior that caused everything to blow up. He took himself out of responsibility to the point of blaming Ludwig who was completely uninvolved other than hosting a last minute tournament to help the scene recover. Sorry, but "Fuck Alan," is still valid when everything bad thst he says happened was a result of his own actions.

[@sk8boigage]

@@ScourJful Just cause you’re an 0-2er doesn’t mean you need to bring your misery here.

[@hwile]

Assuming everyone is being truthful, seems like miscommunication on Alan's part. But Alan's reasoning on why he doesn't release evidence... Like, yes, there are "antivaxxers". But most of them are sheep who will follow their favorite smasher, and if THEY agree with Alan after the evidence, then there. Release it en masse, let the people decide. And like the other person said, right now, it's Alan's word vs multiple others' who are corroborating each other.

[@gracefuldrowning138]

I dont have Twitter so all your guests are surprises to me! Great episodes guys thanks for keeping it real and doing things others shy away from

[@yawg691]

Man I gotta say I was a bit uneasy about how this episode would be but HOOOOLY it was good!! Might be best episode yet?

[@Billymaysx]

The whole "Smashers are anti-vaxxers" argument is really well made and relates to Smashers discourse on other platform fighters as well. Smash players say "Well, I would enjoy x more if it had y mechanic" but when developers add said mechanic, they always fall back on another excuse "Well, I like that they added y mechanic, but I think this game needs more z in it." The honest truth is no matter how close you make a game play like Smash, Smash players will always like Smash more. That's why it's important for platform fighters to do their own thing and care less about what other similar communities want (This is why I am most optimistic about Multiversus return as opposed to NASB or Rivals 2).

[@CNElectricq]

What a profound episode, Alan seems to be an amazing human being

[@Raykushi]

At this stage, I wouldn't say Alan is the most controversial person you've ever interviewed, especially given that opinions of him have been revisited recently by the Smash community, but I'd like to say that I do 100% appreciate your willingness to interview people in controversial situations (Your ZeRo interview for instance was extremely compelling, even if you ended up being strong-armed into removing it). Thanks for that.

[@elijmin2]

Respect to EE as always for putting on a great show!

[@gelosy]

Damn man, it’s simultaneously interesting and saddening as a distant follower to hear about how things could have been and what went wrong with everything. Thanks Lights Out for having this dialogue, best wishes to the Smash community.

[@Nintendofan4000]

For those still coming on here I hope this comment doesn't go unnoticed. Melee Juice just put out a video about the history of alternative Smash controllers. He subtly added misinformation when he got to the Panda controller by saying Dr. Alan did "shady sh*t" and that's why Panda folded and why we didn't get that controller. The video I am currently commenting on is 3 MONTHS OLD and this video with the misinformation (kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6vbin2PobiJY9U) is 4 days old. No excuse here but the continued misrepresentation of the facts. Please take the information above and do with it as you will. This mischaracterization of what happened continues to drive me up a wall.

[@boombamboosh3749]

This episode now has made lights out my favorite podcast holy shit. Lots of emotions and that danger gauge and all of Alan’s other ideas seriously would’ve put smash over League like it’s crazy how the smash community destroyed an entire org and all of Alan’s visions. The best episode by far.

[@volu7169]

realistically smash is never gonna be bigger than league, there's reasons why it is the biggest esport in the world.

[@Stogey]

yeah until nintendo lets you download smash for free on your pc it's a massive uphill battle to grow bigger than something as accessible as LOL @@volu7169

[@naotosenpai2789]

Holy shit it's actually unreal how much the community lost just by hearing this podcast lol

[@bubupianisimo]

Why does Alan keep saying Scuffed World Tour was an accident? Didn't Ludwig purposefully do it to spite Panda?

[@is44ct37]

Accident, as in Ludwig didn’t have all of the knowledge. If he knew all the context, he likely wouldn’t have made the same decision. He did what he thought was the right thing to do at the time:/ I’m curious what Ludwig thinks of this know

[@psychokinrazalon]

@@is44ct37 He still deserves blame for wanting to spite Panda.

[@zundraXD]

this has got to be my favorite episode yet. this was incredible

[@CarbonMalite]

I was actually looking forward to the Panda controller too! It looked hella awesome and had a lot of cool features to boot.

[@arturomurillo8409]

Twitter significantly damaged the Smash community, I believe. The allegations during covid led to the removal of guilty, but also the ruin of innocent individuals' careers. I feel like Dr. Alan's situation mirrors this trend, demonstrating how quick judgments on Twitter can harm individuals as a whole.

[@joey5745]

This is why I don’t use or support Twitter. I understand it has it’s good points but it seems too Toxic and it’s too easy to lose the truth. Plus there’s endless death threats, why bother?

[@abghen2323]

Same with Reddit, so many people on that platform are a dumbass who thinks they're a genius

[@saigesmart4167]

This needs to be seen by the entire community

[@sinfinite7516]

This man needs to come on again!!!! We should always welcome this martyr of a man back on the podcast.

[@kyleflournoy7730]

I really came down hard on EE when he did that Zero interview a while back. But now im glad he doesnt really back down when it comes to having hard conversations with certain people. Especially since hes much better at it now

[@SmashLibrary]

Great interview. Would be interesting to continue the conversation where it dropped off re: Alan asking "what did I do wrong" at some point and really clear the air on this, because I feel people still harbor some ideas on this topic which may or may not be true from Alan's perspective (it got a little sidetracked into the very valid doxxing conversation which is totally fine so not trying to say it was a bad thing, just something worth considering in a follow up)

[@hideharu-xiii8852]

How the heck did EE and crew pull this off? 36:31 Wait maybe I’m misremembering, but I thought Panda already canceled the cup BEFORE Ludwig announced Scuffed World Tour? Can someone confirm?

[@jaimelopez-jv6ec]

Pretty sure lud anounced once the world tour got canceled. He wanted to take viewers from panda

[@varunkrishnaswamy4252]

Looked back at the tweets, Ludwig announced Scuffed World Tour on Dec 2, and the Panda Cup was cancelled Dec 5.

[@yamieruki]

​@varunkrishnaswamy4252 yea but weren't things falling apart already when he announced it?

[@charles-antoinemartel-roy]

@@yamieruki Did you watch the video? Alan was pretty clear that it was just the final nail in the coffin. They were trying to figure out how to fulfill sponsor obligations despite the massive drop in participation, but they lost all hope of doing so once Lud announced his tournament. They knew it was too far gone at that point. It's not Lud's fault, he was doing what he thought was best for the community based on what was being said at the time, but now we know for a fact that many TOs are either full of shit or kinda dumb. They acted like Alan was threatening them, when in fact, he was like : "Yo, we've been trying to work with Nintendo, and here's all the bullshit they're doing behind closed doors that could affect you... but since we have an open line communication with them, we can help make sure you're not too affected by it." And painted it as Alan and Panda trying to kill the grassroot Smash scene.

[@yamieruki]

@@charles-antoinemartel-roy I'm currently watching it I just wanted the heads up to understand it when he says

[@PrimeFlash93]

Incredible episode, thank you guys for doing this. It was nice to hear the grown-up's side of the story without it being drowned out in the noise of the reddit/twitter/SNS echo chamber.

[@danielp6332]

the fact that some people will watch this and still come away with the idea that he maliciously tried to shut down and threaten other tournaments is heartbreaking

[@ToucanBinks]

Thank you gentlemen for another great show 👏 Hope all you guys have a wonderful upcoming holiday

[@moonbeam2730]

dude, dr. alan was making deals involving millions of dollars on SMASH of all things, this man once upon a time could've done anything for the smash community

[@sauce8277]

I would like to see Alan's Danger Gauge when Cosmos in on the screen with a stock lead LMBO

[@SantaLee2.0]

Ngl I think this is the most I’ve ever learned in a podcast

[@Rodriguezjr]

Really great episode. Glad to have some more clarity on why things happened the way it did. Again great stuff.

[@CrazyDiamond13332]

Technicals was right

[@DJiTubz]

Lights buggin, announce the guests because even I missed this one and was surprised lmaoo

[@fluffyruff7453]

Seeing how this unfolded really makes me side with technicals when he calls things out on his videos. It's so hard to actually side with a community that's actually trying so hard to destroy itself while they pretend they themselves are not a part of the main issue.

[@defectivesickle5643]

You can start by looking at the players instead of the keyboard kids who peak at 1-2 at a local

[@armorparade]

technicals isnt automatically not a slimeball just bc he knows how to do some research lol he can be right about things and still be a awful person, think!!! this is how we got here in the first place! news drops, people react and day that x is the good guy and y is the bad guy and call it a day

[@TehWhiteTiger]

It's really crazy how this all just boils down to terrible communication. Alan supposedly coming off as hostile. Gimr for making a poor tasted call out tweet. Nintendo in general. Even Ludwig's event. Communication and context is so important.

[@charles-antoinemartel-roy]

Agreed, I think a lot of communication errors happened, both in terms of when some of the discussions happened (ex. Alan approaching a TO during his tournament, while the guy was probably stressed out of his mind trying to ensure everything would go smoothly) and how people instantly labelled those discussions as threatening because Nintendo was involved. Overall, just a big mess that hurt Smash more than anything on either side was trying to warn people about.

[@joey5745]

I think it would’ve been helpful if he explained how he isn’t profiting from any of the moves and projects he was working on. How all of the revenue was going to the players, commentators, and staff. It would’ve been extremely difficult but I think an open forum stream could’ve assisted in getting the truth out. Death Threats however make that possibility very unlikely,

[@wlt3585]

​@joey5745 At the time, almost 100% people would've just called him a liar without extensively posting bank statements or such like that. Certainly not everyone, but enough to cause a large fuss

[@billalzerouali4436]

Gimr's tweet wasn't really terrible communication

[@lokks2130]

Miscommunication isn't the issue, violent behaviour and maliciousness from the community is. It wasn't miscommunication that made them destroy a whole community and harass people, it was their hearts.

[@ODISeth]

I can’t believe Dr. Alan came on this show for 5 seconds explicitly to say that the *Ring the Bell* rating guy killed Panda smh my head Nah but fr this was an absurdly insightful episode and I’m, genuinely taken aback at the loss of what could have been. So much went wrong for Dr. Alan and for Panda, and whether any of it was Dr. Alan’s fault, intentional malice, or just a series of blunders from a misguided and misinformed community of Twitter users, it is devastating to hear the impact all of this has had not just on Dr. Alan, but on EVERYONE who worked at Panda. So many dreams crushed, so many jobs lost, and so much promise for the Smash community absolutely stomped into dust. From a fan who was at one time applying to join the Panda team as a video editor, and became someone scared to even have a Panda poster anywhere close to within camera view during videos and streams, it’s both inspiring and terrifying to hear his story and see how we got to where we are.

[@shuikai272]

Really crazy how Gimr made an honest mistake and accused Panda of all these things which aren't true. And then LD and hotbid made an honest mistake and helped them with it. And then Ludwig made an honest mistake by scheduling his event at the exact same time as the Panda Cup. All the biggest TOs all making mistakes here, poor clumsy TOs.

[@lokks2130]

😂😂

[@Juanmegas]

EE almost getting blacklisted for casting events was a very surprising revelation :O

[@jak3w]

This was a cool episode and no one deserves the amount of hate he got, and I myself am guilty of jumping on the bandwagon without all the information and for that I truly apologize. That being said, you guys just let him paint himself as the Jesus of the smash community who had to be sacrificed for our sins. Not a single hard hitting question? Why?

[@Fly1guy]

Crazy how panda just got shot down completely due to a misunderstanding

[@leukashot123]

Sounds like the smash community to me!

[@erickalvarez6486]

I mean, if we would have got bts team here we would get a different story about how Alan was wrong and you'd comment the opposite. We will never know bro, only they know.

[@hannes8978]

People on twitter having a power trip and jumping on allegations with zero evidence or any understanding of the subject. Gotta love it

[@Erteywie]

That's twitter for you

[@JayKSilver]

You must not be on Twitter much

[@rambo3rd471]

Sometimes you don't realize how good you have it until you lose it. People like to make villains to make the world simpler, but this doesn't get us closer to solving any of our problems. We all should reflect on this and do better in the future to never repeat these mistakes again. Amazing episode. 10/10.

[@Jje261YT]

Won’t get this on tweek talks!

[@EEvisu]

lmao

[@fupalover]

Tweek Talks are too politically correct and are ass kissers.

[@LegendaryRyu]

I still think back to that video stream during the Panda fiasco where a whole bunch of TOs had a discord chat about how powerful they were, and that makes me want to stop even considering the Smash community a thing.

[@ThatSrb2DUDE]

Great episode. Its honestly a real shame that this community could of had so much more than first thought of. So many wasted potential opportunities. The bag was truly embarrassingly fumbled.

[@gibransalazar7769]

Smash community dropped the ball 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@TheVirginMeri]

The people online jumping to conclusions is expected at this point, but people like Lud making kneejerk vids about the situation and swaying public perspective definitely did not help. Gurantee there were people who never watched Smash coming for Panda. And I know the pod itself doesn't want to point fingers and whatnot, but VG/BTS still have no hard evidence whereas Alan claims to have a lot (which while I have no ideas what the death threats, harassing, and doxxing is like, this evidence prob should've came public at some point). I can't think of a good motive for them to cause all of this besides pettiness so tbh I'm pointing at them. The fun part is that if this all were to happen again the majority of people would do the exact same thing lol

[@charles-antoinemartel-roy]

I think we have to put things into perspective. Hindsight is all-powerful. I can see how the grassroot Smash scene had little to no trust in Panda once they learned they were working with Nintendo. It is a scene that was all but abandoned by Nintendo for most of its existence, despite helping make Smash a massive hit, even on a failure of a console like the Wii U. This instinctive distrust of Nintendo probably played against Panda, and I think it is possible that some of those discussions happened at inopportune moments. For example, Alan or someone else at Panda talking to a TO during the tournament. At a point where the TO is probably already stressed out of his mind trying to ensure everything runs smoothly. This tends to make people adopt a defensive stance regardless of what you bring to them. With that said, I do believe that some Smash TOs have a lot of blame to take for what happened, because they used this situation to justify their fears without actually understanding the situation. BTS in particular, IMO, had a damaging impact because of how they presented their point. It was very... exaggerated is the most polite way I can put this.

[@psychokinrazalon]

@@charles-antoinemartel-roy The competitive scene never made Smash bigger than it was just by being Smash. Nintendo doesn’t care about the scene because it’s peanuts compared to what Smash makes being a casual party game.

[@charles-antoinemartel-roy]

@@psychokinrazalon You're only seeing the consequences of Nintendo's neglect, not the root cause. If Riot made Smash, it'd be the biggest game of all time and the competitive scene would be thriving. The fact that Nintendo is clueless about the value of a competitive scene is irrelevant. Multiple companies make orders of magnitude more money from free to play games in a month than Ultimate will make in its lifetime.

[@psychokinrazalon]

@@charles-antoinemartel-roy F2P is a completely separate thing from competitive-focused. Try articulating your point better. The 20mil copies Ultimate sold didn’t come from the competitive scene. They don’t need you. But you need their approval to make Smash a Tier 1 esport. And you all blew that chance big time.

[@problemsnearyou8899]

I don’t think Alan is able to talk bout the incident between him/BTS, but that’s really what the community needs to hear . Idc who’s right . Idc who’s wrong . Shit both sides may be right & wrong in some cases . However, all parties owning up to their mistakes & moving forward is the only way to elevate the Smash community again . With an incident this big, a mature discussion has to be had to remove this black cloud

[@1NameGoesHere]

Unfortunately, the well has already been poisoned and it's not really going to make a difference now as Alan said. Let's say they do hash things out and bring everything out of the bag. Panda is still gone, BTS is still gone, the Smash community is still struggling financially, the community is still going to always blame Nintendo for everything (rightfully or not), and when communication between Nintendo and the community is established, it's immediately severed (usually) through no fault but the community. Then you still have people who are going to spin it as "X is the villain", no matter what is said or shown. There's just too much to fix, and the Smash community doesn't seem to (want to) learn from their mistakes and will continue to just destroy things exponentially faster than they can create.

[@problemsnearyou8899]

@@1NameGoesHere I can’t deny any of what you said as false . However, the one thing I will dispute is the value of discussing what occurred . While talking fixes nothing now, it would give the community background on the mistake of others to not make those same mistakes in the future . Not only that, if Alan & BTS were to join together, they could bring a lot of positivity throughout all of this . Alan would get the chance to “clear his name” while doing what he loved . BTS would be able to come back & have a genius like Alan help them on their rebuild . I’m sure Alan would’ve preferred to do it with Panda, but it would benefit both parties involved If that miracle weren’t to happen (I understand how unlikely something like that would be), then at least the community could learn from this & grow . So when something similar or in the same realm happens again, people won’t be so quick to act at least until more facts are out there . That bare minimum could be huge for the community

[@1NameGoesHere]

@@problemsnearyou8899 That's fair to say, and it's ideal. The problem I feel is why I bother to type the last paragraph. The Smash community literally feels like high school, and it seems like they're not even trying to learn, grow, or even DO the bare minimum. I'm not too involved in the Smash community, but I was curious enough to follow it, especially growing up with it since 64. Now I literally follow it as a social experiment, discussing it with people on the outside because a lot of behaviour cultivated since Melee would seem very unusual to a lot of outside spectators. But hey, you're hopeful, which is something needed. I personally don't think it makes ANY sense whatsoever to invest in the Smash community in its current state, but it would be cool if the community could actually get its shit together and work with the big leagues or at the very bare minimum the average people.

[@problemsnearyou8899]

@@1NameGoesHere as someone who originally started his fighting game ventures with Street Fighter & how they have their own circuit running for a decade now, id love to see it in Smash grow into that as someone who grew up with it since 64 too . To me, it seems like a lot of this incident could’ve been avoided if Nintendo wasn’t the way they were . Capcom allowed the grass roots orgs to keep running their events & even would use some events as shoe ins for you to get into Capcom Cup if you won . Nintendo threatening grass roots cause they gave someone an exclusive license was extremely idiotic on their part & destroyed their community/money . Tbh their narcissism is to blame here regardless of where Alan/BTS had their errors . They had the power to nip this in the bud & continued to shoot the community in the foot . Completely unfair to all parties involved

[@1NameGoesHere]

@@problemsnearyou8899 Oh yeah, a part of me still wants the community to thrive, and I'm not saying I always agree with Nintendo's decision, but I also understand why they would be extremely protective, especially now, with (what the public might think) who they associate with. At the end of the day, we have to realise that Capcom is NOT Nintendo, and each company has their way of doing things. That's unfortunately business. Even within Capcom, if Street Fighter wanted to create a Dante costume, but the team/creators for DMC said no, that's it, no costumes, so if a Street Fighter tournament has a Dante mod, I wouldn't be surprised if there would be an issue. Besides, Nintendo gave licenses to other TOs. Unfortunately, VGBC, for example, was not one of them and for valid reasons from what I have gathered.

[@2FadeMusic]

Alan seems like a likable guy. It really is sad what happened to him. Still no idea who was to blame for what happened behind the scenes and everything, but no one deserves the harassment and threats he received. Social media is so toxic. Glad he's doing better now