Dr. David Bentley Hart on That All Shall Be Saved - Session 1: Introduction and Meditation 1

[@legit.jacquie]

I was only passively listening as I work, until I heard Dr. Hart say somewhere around 18:00 (paraphrased) "No Christian who believes in [eternal torment for finite sin/disbelief] is truly capable of loving God with all his heart, strength, and mind" and I immediately burst into tears. Somehow, I've always known this deep down, but never heard anyone else talk about it or state it so plainly. Quickly went to Amazon and ordered four of his books...

[@M-i-k-a-e-l]

Such merciful tears. I think we are crying for many when we sit alone and let them fall for the reason you mention. Thank you.

[@jonnyw82]

17:00 I felt the same as this kid, I almost had a mental breakdown bc I was so burdened and distraught over the idea of billions of souls in torment for eternity. I felt like I was in the most horrifying episode of black mirror and even worse none of my Christian friends understood why i was so troubled. I still haven’t fully recovered spiritually or psychologically.

[@SlamJammer421]

Exactly, it's like some people are just heartless

[@MarthaEllen88]

I am so glad to find this community on line. Why do most Christians not seem bothered about this? Or realise this cannot be of God? And then when there is good biblical reason to change doctrine, not investigate?

[@JimKanaris]

DBH cleared the path for me in my old age to reconnect with the God of my youth whom I loved and I intuitively felt unconditionally loved me. Years of well-meaning yet pernicious dogma eclipsed this God whose representation I rightly and subconsciously came to loathe, a being giving me a stone when starving for bread, a serpent when needing fish. DBH's rationally sensible treatment of tradition, thanks to his appreciation of Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Maximus the Confessor, and other careful readers of St. Paul, reconfigured Eckhart's celebrated prayer in me. No longer is it tenable for me to believe in a so-called omnipotent, omnibenevolent God less merciful than I calling the shots.

[@RealAtheology]

This was excellent! Thank you for hosting Dr. Hart!

[@gingersaiyan5516]

Can’t wait for this one!

[@jamesmccluskey7]

Amen. Thank you @legit.jacquie- that 18:00 minute mark is so helpful. How could anyone in the new creation (heaven) be in bliss while many of our friends and family are in eternal torment? We couldn’t. I love DBH. I bought his most recent translation of the New Testament and will have a hard time reading any other translation.

[@africandawahrevival]

55:14 That joke about Diane was funny, brothers 😂

[@karinyaboriskova441]

Hope the audio is fixed in the next parts.

[@cydmack4074]

Interesting - I’m in 👍

[@georgejabbour665]

I read your meditations on in a book many years ago and would like to reread psalms but canno

[@jerrymichaels9911]

once this premieres, will this stay on youtube for future viewing?

[@wesleywalker8923]

It will be on YT in perpetuity

[@thimychan202]

Hart is so smart I cannot follow what he is actually communicating. Really straining to understand his speaking. Will reading his book really help? If he speaks like he writes, I think I will be lost.

[@glenclary3231]

Thank you very much for doing these. BTW, did David pay you to say that Robert is his "older" brother?

[@kennethfurr7397]

I am definitely not in the school of "eternal torment" anymore. It is impossible to love a god like that. It really doesn't make any sense at all to me. I am still looking into whether this or the conditionalist view wins out. Edward Fudge wrote some pretty good stuff about the latter viewpoint. For me, the jury is still out.

[@joshanderson8566]

I'm confused by St. Paul naming different types of people who won't inherent the Kingdom. Why would he give the impression that in the end not all will inherent the Kingdom? It seems like mix messaging.

[@bw2442]

It’s true these different types of people won’t inherit the kd, however you have to read the end of the story to realize ALL will be saved. The lake of fire is to refine and open the eyes of those who ran from the light. The lake of fire is the fiery love of God.

[@EremiasRanwolf-d6z]

💯☝️​@@bw2442

[@PoetryInHats]

Hart talks about 2 eschatological horizons. In one there's judgment where the human race is divided into righteous and wicked. In the second there's a final restoration of all things.

[@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns]

DBH is misunderstood. But usually correct on these issues IMO. I prefer the writings of Talbott, Reitan/Kronen, and Parry.

[@cherylwilliams4738]

Does Mr Hart believe in hell?

[@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns]

@@cherylwilliams4738 yes, he “very much” (his phrase) believes in hell.

[@cherylwilliams4738]

@@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns To be honest I haven't listened to much of his stuff I just know some universalist don't believe in hell. I was just curious. I'm fairly new to this way of teaching. Less than a yr. I'm actually very very sick ,in horrific 24 7 pain..on my deathbed, so my question probably doesn't make any sense. Sorry, I probably should listen.

[@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns]

@@cherylwilliams4738 That’s awful 😞 I’m sorry. I hope your suffering dissipates as much as possible

[@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns]

@@cherylwilliams4738 in Hart’s model, hell purifies. As Jesus says, hell fire “salts” (he listed hellfire as an example of salting fire in Mark 9:49, and note the way “salting” is used elsewhere)

[@jonnyw82]

If you believe non-Christian’s will suffer torment for eternity you have a moral obligation to sell all your possessions and spend every waking hour evangelizing yet nobody does this. Do they not really believe it deep down or do they hate their neighbor?

[@AnHebrewChild]

Do you believe there are people suffering in _this_ world whose suffering might be alleviated through financial means? Are you spending all of your discretionary budget helping them? Why not? Are you not concerned with their suffering? Do you hate your neighbor? Or do you not actually believe there are these sorts of suffering people?

[@TheJoeschmoe777]

@@AnHebrewChild But you're comparing temporal suffering to never ending suffering. It's apples to oranges.

[@AnHebrewChild]

@@TheJoeschmoe777 yeah, still seems like it matters.

[@joshanderson8566]

How would we square universalism and 2 Peter 2?

[@thesacramentalists9855]

Which part of 2 Peter 2? vv. 17-22?

[@joshanderson8566]

@@thesacramentalists9855 thank you for getting back to me. My question is a real one, not a KZbin trolling one. I know it's hard to tell these days. Let me look real fast. I had just read it in my Anglican ordinariate daily office morning readings. No not just 17-22, but the whole thing. Peter talking about the angels and Noah.

[@bman5257]

@@joshanderson8566Remember universalism isn’t the view that there’s no Hell, it’s that Hell doesn’t last for all of eternity. So 2 Peter 2 has no bearing on universalism.

[@10.6.12.]

Are not the wages of believing in eternal damnation a life relegated to rebelling against a God that is endlessly and eternally merciful in some kind of grotesque delusional dance of pietism at best or at worst a life of nihilistic despair.

[@heavybar3850]

David bentley Hart is quite the comedian

[@claydiddy63able]

He's a joke, that's for sure.

[@heavybar3850]

@@claydiddy63ablewhy?

[@EremiasRanwolf-d6z]

Feel free to defeat his argumentation if you can. ​@@claydiddy63able

[@carolinenorman6141]

Cant hear properly

[@jericosha2842]

Thanks for this. I devour this stuff. But please let the man speak and clarify. That was so repeatedly awkward lol.

[@joshanderson8566]

Dr Hart claims everyone is wrong and that everyone's translations are wrong. How we to ever know the truth? If I go to the Eastern Orthodox translation of the NT, I see in Jude, the use of the eternal chains of the angels and the eternal fire of Sodem and Gomorrah. This is all so confusing. Where and how do I find the truth? Did God really make it this difficult?

[@joshanderson8566]

@@eremiasranwolf3513 Dr Hart's and Balthazar's book are in my cue to read. I'm trying to finish "The Eurcharist form of God" and Saint Newman's Development of Doctrine right now.

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

🇷🇺☦️🤝✝️Exactly brother! Thank you for defending our holy faith from the Pseudo Orthodox Protestant clowns like DBH & Gay Dyer, who hijacked our identity👏 None of the Church fathers & saints ever claimed absolute Universalism as Origen the pantheist heretic who said parts of Bible are allegories🤢 did, they only believed in the correct view, whereas Hades was a transitional station for the judgement of God, whereas some would be moved to heaven & some would either stay in hades (sheol), which is a subterranean space - the Earth's mantle (as taught us the holy Tertullian), which in turn leads to hell/lake of fire - the Earth's core, where only God's SELECTED souls are saved by His grace & the others forever damned (so God didn't even create "a hell", only allowed Satan, His agent for testing man, to use Earth's inner core for that purpose) Fr. Rooney is 100% correct, and as an eastern Roman Orthodox, I am so ashamed of heretics like Hart & all those modern academics, who corrupt our teachings, saying that God's will & creation are necessaries to Him & reject the concepts of mortal sin & justice. With their logic, even Hitler is saved. Yes, what a "good" just god they're believing in, those twisted wiseguys..🤦God bless you, Fr. Dominic for exposing their heretical deception!🙏❤️

[@Zadoc2010]

Bro…it is frustrating. You are not wrong. One thing to consider, which is something you probably do know. But just remember, the Father constantly tried to show the Jewish Nation His heart. The simplicity of his loving kindness fully revealed in Jesus led to His prompt unjust torture and crucifixion. Even though he foretold them and then demonstrated His glory magnificently before them. Nothing against the Jews. They are an example of one possible reaction to the Truth. The most extreme. Their example shows us that at our absolute worst. God chose to die for us. Freely giving us His forgiveness. His highest and best truth is actually incredibly simple. God is love. In Him is no darkness at all. We will unpack His beauty and glory for the ages. Good luck to you on your journey. All praise to Jesus the one true king. He is so precious.

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

@@Zadoc2010 Brother, what are you talking about, this is not the issue here AT ALL. We're dealing here with one of the biggest heretics & blasphemers of our time, and I don't even want to get into his vile arrogant prideful behavior even. He is the face of the Pseudo Orthodox modernist Origenist deceivers & sons of Satan, ok? The irony here is that he claims that God cannot be sending men for eternal fire, but his blasphemous ideas are exactly what has the potential to send them there. I suggest all you guys here how Fr. Dominic Rooney utterly destroyed & dismantles ALL of this clowns claims & that's the reason why he refused to debate him. We as Christians cannot let him get away with this & refute him!

[@easternRomanOrthodox]

​@@Zadoc2010Brother, what are you talking about, this is not the issue here AT ALL. We're dealing here with one of the biggest heretics & blasphemers of our time, and I don't even want to get into his vile arrogant prideful behavior even. He is the face of the Pseudo Orthodox modernist Origenist deceivers & sons of Satan, ok? The irony here is that he claims that God cannot be sending men for eternal fire, but his blasphemous ideas are exactly what has the potential to send them there. I suggest all you guys here how Fr. Dominic Rooney utterly destroyed & dismantles ALL of this clowns claims & that's the reason why he refused to debate him. We as Christians cannot let him get away with this & refute him!

[@thisgeneration2894]

Lol happen his middle name is Diane

[@paulafortin1044]

Maybe I should read the book. I skipped through the video and the speaker is so testy I can't listen. I hear him argue, though, what god can do. That reminded me of my objection to a popular preacher who does the same thing. I spend more time listening for God than preachers, and never heard one time, I am bound by men's opinion from anything surrounding Him,

[@markanthony3275]

Is God gonna save Satan and the demons? Because if He isn't then why would He save those who obeyed the demons? He told Adam and Eve that if they disobeyed His instruction about eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they would die. So did they die? Yes they did, He did not spare them. God respects the choice of every human. And if a human chooses to keep God out of his /her life, then God will honour their choice and send them to another place where He is also absent...for eternity. It's called HELL.

[@JoBo301]

How can it be for an eternity when Adam and Eve and all humans after them were NOT created as immortal beings??

[@markanthony3275]

@@JoBo301 Because God said in His word that we will all be resurrected into immortality "Some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation". Who said that? GOD said that.

[@JoBo301]

@@markanthony3275 So if someone becomes a Christian they do not inherit eternal life in this earthly life???

[@markanthony3275]

@@JoBo301 Their body belongs to this world, but when they are reconciled to Jesus Christ, their spirit enters into the kingdom of God, so that when the body in this world dies, their spirit does not die, and they receive a new body to go with their spirit into eternity in heaven. The Bible explains this quite clearly. Now the problem of course for those who are not reconciled to God is that like the believer, their body dies in this world but their spirit does not go into the kingdom of God, but exists shrouded in darkness. At judgement time they also receive an eternal body to go with their spirit...except they go to a place that they chose...they didn't want God while they were in the world so God honours their choice by sending them to a place where He will never be. a place called hell.

[@markanthony3275]

@@JoBo301 Romans 2:7 "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and IMMORTALITY , He will give ETERNAL life." If a person becomes ETERNAL they also become IMMORTAL. Only GOD has the ability to make what was not immortal into something immortal. OK ...I wanna see your word games now!

[@wierdpocket]

I want to hear dbh actually engage a thomist, I only hear of him engaging them. My first thought regarding his prologue is Abraham seems to trespass Dbh’s rule about “actually loving” your children. He was literally ready to kill his son for God. Also, I feel it’s exactly the “indoctrinating” and “catechesis” that allows one to render Jesus’ statements about the eternality of punishment in Matthew as anything other than what is plainly stated by our Lord. Like, you need to know the intricacies of Greek and be a great philologist to wiggle those words around to make them mean something other than what, even an autistic child, would understand after reading Matthew 25. I guess I’m just saying that there seems to be a lot of double standards in DBH’s methodology, saying nothing about his conclusions.

[@gfujigo]

Check out his response to Ed Feser and his recent response to a Catholic priest on those issue.

[@gfujigo]

His response to father Rooney might be an example. I think father Rooney is a thomist. I could be wrong though.

[@Polumetis]

"Like, you need to know the intricacies of Greek and be a great philologist to wiggle those words around to make them mean something other than what, even an autistic child, would understand after reading Matthew 25." Thankfully the world is filled with people who don't know the intricacies of Greek and are poor philologists who can arrive at the correct interpretation. What a silly sentiment.

[@wierdpocket]

​@@Polumetis It's not "silly" at all! Why are people so passive aggressive in KZbin comboxes? My point is precisely that the "common sense" interpretation is not apparent upon reading the text because the text says, quite literally, that hell is eternal. The only way to get around that is through interpretive prowess. David's point was the opposite, that it's everyone *else* who does philological violence to the text, which is completely non-intuitive (especially for, using David's own example, an autistic child) : Arriving at a conclusion that means something different than what the words indicate requires an approach that is highly advanced. I'm not claiming one thing or another about conclusions here, only that David's apologia for his methodology makes no sense.

[@kristenswensen6451]

I don't know Greek, but it's very clear that the Life Jesus calls us to and the entirety of scriptural revelation is utterly incompatable with this idea of Hell as some conscious, limitless, torture. Frankly, its a christian scandal. No worries, though. We will be purified of our corruption, sin and delusions. The goat in me (and you) will be cast aside until we are united fully with God, through the indwelling of Christ. ALL

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

🇷🇺☦️🤝✝️None of the Church fathers & saints ever claimed absolute Universalism as Origen the pantheist heretic who said parts of Bible are allegories did, they only believed in the correct view, whereas Hades was a transitional station for the judgement of God, whereas some would be moved to heaven & some would either stay in hades (sheol), which is a subterranean space - the Earth's mantle (as taught us the holy Tertullian), which in turn leads to hell/lake of fire - the Earth's core, where only God's SELECTED souls are saved by His grace & the others forever damned (so God didn't even create "a hell", only allowed Satan, His agent for testing man, to use Earth's inner core for that purpose) Fr. Rooney is 100% correct, and as an eastern Roman Orthodox, I am so ashamed of heretics like Hart & all those modern academics, who corrupt our teachings, saying that God's will & creation are necessaries to Him & reject the concepts of mortal sin & justice. With their logic, even Hitler is saved. Yes, what a "good" just god they're believing in, those twisted wiseguys..🤦God bless Fr. Dominic for exposing their heretical deception!🙏❤️

[@gfujigo]

God bless David Bentley Hart for sharing the truth of universal salvation through Christ. Father Rooney is wrong on this topic - utterly and completely.

[@EremiasRanwolf-d6z]

With your logic Hitler is is hell. With his victims! Make that make sense. If you'd spend 5 minutes on Wikipedia you'd understand universalism doesn't mean there is no punishment or correction or no suffering in hell or that everyone IS saved or that Jesus is unnecessary or that we are saved through some other name or that nothing we do matters. I have no idea where infernalists get that stuff except from their own imaginations.

[@EremiasRanwolf-d6z]

Btw, you did some good shaming and ranting. But you didn't and you probably can't actually defeat even one of Hart's arguments. If you cant, don't blame him that his arguments point some kind of way you don't like.

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

@@EremiasRanwolf-d6z You heretics! You were condemned by our holy St. Emperor Justianianus with all your Origenism & Greek philosophy! Repent!

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

@@EremiasRanwolf-d6z What? The victims who were innocent are not with him, you sick people! The wicked are for ever in hell & if you don't repent so will you be with Hart..