Dr David Rose explains that eating meat & fish can be done in a sustainable way

This debate has been sponsored by GenV genv.org
Dr David Rose speaks for the opposition of the motion that This House Would Go Vegan. Dr Rose is a Visiting Fellow at Royal Agricultural University. His work focuses on sustainable agricultural systems.
This is the fourth speech of eight.
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[@nerdslikeus6690]

Veganism is based on ethics, and seeks to end exploitation of all animals. Vegans boycott animal based food, clothing, entertainment, and testing. It doesn't matter if the exploitation is done in a more environmentally sustainable way. What happens to the individual animal matters to that animal.

[@andrewestbrook4473]

Vegan agricultural practices destroy more animals than rearing livestock.

[@lewisgreen5910]

I massively disagree. The last few years there has been a huge push on sustainability from cattle farming and livestock crop feed in order to push and further guilt trip people into veganism. There is a new wave of vegans emerging from this. My own household has already cutdown on red meat for sustainability issues. Modern veganism It is definitely not just about the individual animals life (or death)

[@seanogorman3617]

@@lewisgreen5910that’s your opinion which is wrong. Just like human rights will always be against oppression and exploitation, regardless of whether or not someone tries to oppress humans and call it ok cause it’s the “new human rights”

[@nerdslikeus6690]

@@lewisgreen5910 You are not alone, many people are confused on this topic. The label we use for this, is plant based, not "Modern veganism". If someone is boycotting animal products to avoid animal exploitation, then that is veganism, anything else is plant based. There are many people who go plant based for selfish reasons, like health or environment. Unfortunately, they do not extend their abstinence of animal products beyond their diet. But even if they did stop using all animal products, they would still be plant based. Vegans are against all animal exploitation (it is in the definition).

[@lewisgreen5910]

@@nerdslikeus6690 thanks for the info , but is doing it for environmental reasons selfish ?

[@theomer1]

Regarding farmers' livelihood, if killing animals unnecessarily is unethical then it has to be stopped even if there are people profiting from it. You wouldn't make the argument that human trafficking or slave trade needs to continue so that the perpetrators can put food on the table for their families. In ethical issues, the victim's perspective always takes precedence over that of the oppressor.

[@RatsPicklesandMusic]

9:57 people who work in slaughterhouses often end up with mental disorders, addictions, and PTSD from the conditions and killing they are expected to do... Come on, man... My god.

[@jackmichaelpeter]

Point of contention: the cows in a majority of cow milk production are fed supplements

[@RatsPicklesandMusic]

6:32 exactly. The prices for meat and dairy are artificially low due to subsidies. Switch the subsidies, switch the prices.

[@jackmorgan8684]

What about all the other milk alternatives? What about the ethical questions? Why can't these debates cut out the pathetic personal insults from an academic debate?

[@davidformosa7626]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hV6pfmiJnapjnas

[@onlyguitar1001]

I eat vegemite and have nutritional yeast on pasta dishes as well as eating fortified foods and every couple of weeks taking a supplement. I doubt that this guy gets as much B12 as I do and he's getting it indirectly from the farm animals getting B12 supplements.

[@ashlynprather45]

Why is it bad to get b12 indirectly?

[@prettynoose888]

So, he doesn't know the animals he eats are supplemented with B12🙄

[@JulieAdams-td4xx]

Did a vegan Facebook page tell you that?

[@prettynoose888]

@@JulieAdams-td4xx Just do a Google search and you will find tons of articles and also pictures of the B12 products they use as feed supplementation and injections for farm animals.

[@ASOT666]

@@JulieAdams-td4xx No, industry reports/analyses and data did. From the international magazine for animal feed and additivies industry: 1) Global feed vitamins was worth USD 10.32 billion in 2021. For reference, the global vitamin B12 market was USD 266.9 million at the same time. Meaning it's very likely the vast majority of B12 revenues are sourced from industrial agriculture, so it is in effect feeding the non-vegans, just indirectly. 2) Feed vitamins are very essential for all livestock, and there's an increase in the demand for quality meat, health concerns, and disease outbreaks which have further increased growth.

[@KelpandFern]

@@JulieAdams-td4xx he mentions Wales pasture a lot, I have lived in the mountains of Wales for the last 8 years and in most fields in Wales you see red, green, black, white buckets called "sheep lick" or "mineral lick" and the cows and sheeps eat from these and they all have supplements in them. I have hundreds of photographs of them from around North Wales.

[@jhunt5578]

😂 Its funny how bad his points are get almond milk rather than soy mik to compare. Talks about lack of B12 causing heart disease when vegans supplement and animal products massively increase risk of heart disease due to saturated fat. The he talks about money, with that attitude why change anything keep horse and carts rather than cars, keep hot air balloons rather than planes. Smh.

[@gracepearson5905]

I laughed when he pulled out the almond milk, talk about grasping at straws

[@candykane4271]

Eat nuts, drink nuts!

[@jackmichaelpeter]

Point of contention; is dietary science really as simplistic as ‘this food has more of x nutrient therefore it is better’? Iron has quite a lot of iron in it but I’d recommend consuming raw iron.

[@ASOT666]

heme iron is also potentially (not definitely - just possibly) not good for you either, despite being bioavailable. colorectal cancer, type 2 diabetes mellitus, and cardiovascular disease... This is well-established, refer to this review from 2021 which summarizes 34 meta analyses which had 46 unique health outcomes: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34583608/ Thing is, even if its not causal and just a correlation, this is still a problem for the meat eater, because the sole people with high iron are non-vegans/vegetarians. Something else which is highly correlated with heme iron is in their diet and causing the issue. That issue is not present

[@RatsPicklesandMusic]

5:40 he should have compared it to soy milk at least. 🙄 Weak.

[@RatsPicklesandMusic]

Yeah this is embarrassing... Oh my god... 🤦‍♀️

[@cristianpurcaru]

What a bunch o nonsense! Where are his arguments against the vegan philosophy? 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@j4rvismick]

£1 a pint, again another person trivialises the costs to the animals. At £1 a pint they are obviosly going to be well looked after. He joked over the hormone question, how many people realise the estrogen content of milk! The employment argument doesn't hold either, whatever happened to the millions of heavy industry jobs (Steel, Chemical, Mining and Power Stations) that were lost in the 70's, 80s and 90's? We re-trained.

[@andrewestbrook4473]

We retrained as burger flippers, baristas and estate agents. Way to go.😂😂😂

[@Itsmelandsteve]

This dude thinks he’s a baby cow.

[@jhunt5578]

Dudes gut is on display but hes still hungry. Figures.

[@dougydoolittle5255]

Saying the animals are "Products" is a big problem the animals face.

[@honestmuscle896]

If you rely on drinking cows milk for protein you are not doing it right. You would need to drink a boat load of milk to help meet protein goals. We are vegan bodybuilders who use Soya milk instead which basically matches cows milk so his argument is void anyway. These arguments supporting consumption of meat and dairy were so weak it was embarrassing. Tradition and humour was what they seemed to rely on for the most part. Both not acceptable ways to debate a point when science and ethics say otherwise

[@querywizard]

Sustainability is a fine goal. This argument misses the giant point though. We don't need to farm animals. There's no need. It's wasteful and horrible. Plants have everything we need. Farm plants sustainably instead.

[@candykane4271]

I think they are producing fertilizer. The cycle of nutrition.

[@ollaitsrealgood]

The data that says that there is increased risk of heart disease from eating red meat is dubious, at best, and I question the methodology used to gather it.

[@someguy2135]

Can you look your food in the eye and say "Sorry, time's up?" There are plenty of alternatives which are kinder, less likely to cause pandemics, less likely to cause antibiotic resistance, less likely to cause climate change, less likely to cause oceaun dead zones, pollution, deforestation, habitat loss, and biodiversity loss.

[@jamesshipway4131]

Sorry, but I'm absolutely effing speechless. Seriously, is this the best they can muster up at Oxford? The opposing side's speaker Dr Sailesh Rao talks about how living as a vegan can help prevent the end of life on the planet. This Dr. Rose clown tells us how his vegan meal hasn't filled him up (my god...) then proceeds to wheel out all the same tired arguments like whether we're getting enough nutrients - calcium, B12 , protein and so on...none of which he actually seems to know very much about. He uses price as an argument whilst failing to mention the huge subsidies which make animal products artificially cheap (until a member of the house points it out to him). Then he throws in how farmers sustain and preserve things like dry stone walls which 'we all like to take photos of' (I'm paraphrasing). Come on - just how significant are these when compared to the disaterous picture Dr Rao paints about the future of the planet if things continue unchanged? Dr. Rose, I ask you - how can we possibly compare getting enough calcium and having 'strong bones and teeth' (are we at primary school now?) to biodiversity loss and oceanic devestation? This guy has no argument compared to Dr Rao - his only argument seems to be that nobody can really be arsed to change so lets just paint a quaint picture about how marvellous Welsh sheep farming and Cornish fishing is and do nothing. It's so pathetic I actually wonder if he's on the payroll of big agriculture. Whover pays his salary, if our future depends on people like Dr. Rose and his frankly ridiculous arguments then I am not looking forward to the next few decades.

[@giialiinh]

honestly, we as humans the majority of us get excessive intake of calcium alr. too much calcium can even cause osteoporosis ^^ btw we can get great sources from, say Kale and vegetables (plants) too, not necessarily milk. We should know that milk causes multiple health problems too 😅 so basically, mentioning milk intake and bring up the connection between calcium and milk is something ... that is preposterous especially when we can get huge amount of calcium elsewhere without inflicting pain on the animals, without taking on the environmental risks associated with animal farming (and it's undeniably unsustainble).

[@ASOT666]

what does the audience member say at 6:00? "If that ??? was made by a short person ???"

[@jdghok]

What a credible speaker, very well informed, not a nonsense quoting fanatic

[@michelacampaner6192]

Embarassing. Never heard so many scientific and logical fallacies in a row. One more good point for vegans!

[@candykane4271]

I can’t believe this is a serious title.

[@Astroidboy.]

I'm down for hemp.

[@SeaTheLion]

hemp milk is delicious, I wish it was more available

[@joekrige2673]

Another weak speaker who had to resort to mockery. I'm shaking my head at how hedonistic their arguments are.

[@reggiperry1366]

them meat eaters have great body's not

[@JulieAdams-td4xx]

Well done, a great speech. Important that you mentioned about all the different farming production of different animals and in different countries. Also about Myles Allen’s work regarding methane and the new measurement of GWP*. Also about the different systems of grass fed beef production compared to grain fed beef raised in Cafos in South America where GHG emissions are higher. The vegans will never win when you look at nutritional value of meat and dairy compared to ultra processed plant based foods. Also the price of whole food compared to plant based is huge. Regenerative agriculture is the way forward and soil health is the most important thing for our planet.

[@dbruce581]

According to a UK government commissioned report British Beef has a higher carbon footprint than US Beef on average. So I'm interested where this guy is getting his data from? UK Beef also uses significantly more land and therefore also has a substantially higher carbon opportunity cost. Saying Welsh beef has a carbon footprint one third of the global average is meaningless for this debate....how does it compare to plant based alternatives? The answer is several times higher. Why didn't he play higher or lower with Soy milk? Because it would have been completely pointless, that's why. The other 88% of his B12 comes from supplements too, they've just been filtered through an animal first. Many Omnis are also deficient in B12. This is incredibly weak stuff overall

[@nomindstate]

farmed animals have been raised ultra-processed, so what you have is a garbage argument

[@shantishanti1949]

Vegetarian over vegan, Piscetarian over meat, chicken over mammals - whatever you can do is a help to animals ….👍👍

[@martinhruby7696]

except for the pescaterian argument. Currently it is far worse to eat fish than mammals for the environment.

[@andrewestbrook4473]

Vegan agricultural practices are dreadful in killing so many animals which eat crops.

[@davidformosa7626]

Anyone CAN go vegan - just depends on how much you care about animals being raped, abused, exploited, tortured, electrocuted, gassed and stabbed in the neck I suppose, eh?