Dr Iain McGilchrist - The Intersection of Consciousness and Matter - Beyond the Brain 2023

Iain McGilchrist and Rupert Sheldrake delve into a spectrum of profound subjects, touching upon the essential role of spirituality in human endeavors, the revitalization of spiritual practices, and the fundamental structure of the cosmos. They discuss panpsychism's implications for the interconnection of consciousness and matter, the enduring nature of memory, the archetypal forms that underpin our reality, and the subtle energy fields that animate existence. The conversation also navigates the terrain of values and the purpose they serve in our lives.
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Dr. Iain McGilchrist, PhD, is a distinguished psychiatrist and author, celebrated for his insightful analysis of cerebral asymmetry and its far-reaching impact on human civilization, as detailed in his influential book "The Master and His Emissary." His recent work, "The Matter with Things," builds on these foundations, delving deeper into the relationship between the brain's structure and the complexities of reality, challenging our understanding of the interplay between matter and consciousness.
/ @driainmcgilchrist
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Dr Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. At Cambridge University, as a Fellow of Clare College, he was Director of Studies in biochemistry and cell biology. As the Rosenheim Research Fellow of the Royal Society, he carried out research on the development of plants and the ageing of cells, and together with Philip Rubery discovered the mechanism of polar auxin transport. In India, he was Principal Plant Physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics, where he helped develop new cropping systems now widely used by farmers. He is the author of more than 100 papers in peer-reviewed journals and his research contributions have been widely recognized by the academic community, earning him a notable h-index for numerous citations. On ResearchGate his Research Interest Score puts him among the top 4% of scientists.
www.sheldrake.org
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The Scientific and Medical Network is dedicated to promoting open-minded debate and interdisciplinary research into scientific, medical, philosophical, and spiritual questions. The Beyond the Brain conference is their annual interdisciplinary exploration into consciousness, going beyond scientific materialism to include philosophical and spiritual dimensions often lacking in mainstream discussions.
/ @scientificandmedicaln...

[@mrscpc1918]

Lancashire uk The presence of Rupert in the world makes me glad to be alive.

[@karengallegos750]

✌️🤩happy to be alive in the times of Rupert 🙏❤️

[@mrscpc1918]

@@StarHuman-ii4re what is what ? What are you referring to that you never heard of ?

[@mrscpc1918]

@@StarHuman-ii4re it’s hard to know where to start really. His background covers decades of wide ranging study from biochemistry/ pharmaceutical/ botany / philosophy/ physiology etc , but it is his willingness to step beyond the bounds of ridged scientific ideologies and discuss and experiment with what has often been dismissed as pseudo science by many still uneasy with the nature of consciousness and the universe and what abilities we may or may not have. He is a mystic to many and happily combines spiritual/ religious and scientific fields in an interesting and thoughtful manner. He is an author and father to amazing sons and has been in a long marriage to another author Jill. He has written many books often related to interesting experiments. He also has a web site full of fascinating things.

[@mrscpc1918]

@@StarHuman-ii4re his critics are uneasy ( did you misunderstand me ). I’m afraid I didn’t get what you meant about college kids. He is learnéd and sensitive and educated beyond measure. A truly remarkable human. His books are great despite the wide ranging areas of subject. Hope that helps you.

[@PlumGustave]

@@StarHuman-ii4rewhat ignorant, sad and bizarre comments..

[@maryhitchcock-nn1nm]

I am in boise Idaho usa. Upon waking to our first snow of the season, I began my day by looking up anything new from Rupert and/or Ian. What a thrill to find this podcast. It is 7:15am

[@vickigriffiths6800]

Hi Mary - I'm Sandpoint ID (just moved here from the UK)..and it snowing here too!

[@robertforsythe3280]

thank you I was worried too.@@vickigriffiths6800

[@lovanah]

Your comment is so wholesome, and reminds me of my own days

[@jimjiminy5836]

Big shout out ( hello) to Boise, from an Englishman in loas.

[@scotland_from_up_high7440]

Can't wait to listen to this on my long drive to the north of Scotland this morning

[@borderlands6606]

One of the blessings of new media, is the platform it has provided for longform discussions of this kind. MSM has abandoned any pretences to serious discussion, hamstrung by assumed audience attention levels, viewing figures, commercial imperatives and political bias.

[@mortalclown3812]

Sad truth in these words. I'm in the US which feels particularly adrift from and even hostile to these topics.

[@georgegolitzin6196]

I was only sad that this conversation had to end! I am a great fan of Rupert, but have not yet read Dr McGilchrist. Well I shall remedy that soon. Thank you both, your conversation is like a spiritual rainfall in the middle of a materialist desert.

[@kt4774]

Dr. McGilchrist has written a wonderful 2 volume set 'The Matter With Things'. It is awesome. Also if you can fine the tiny book 'Ways Of Attending'; another treasure.

[@siyaindagulag.]

Well then ! You are in for a treat. The type of which; should we all indulge , bring great much needed change. Fine metaphor btw. .

[@georgegolitzin6196]

​@@kt4774 thank you for the tip!

[@georgegolitzin6196]

​@@siyaindagulag. Thank you for the encouragement!

[@siyaindagulag.]

simile....oh well ! 😉

[@TheDAT9]

Because I have nothing but respect for these two, I could listen to them all day. I followed the standard path. I was brought up a Christiane by my mother and the church When I got into adolescence I dismissed it all as superstitious nonsense. I spent my working life designing, making, and fixing machines I true mechanic. When I retired I started looking around at the World, and didn't like what I saw. I now know what I am, and why I am here. These two gentlemen have helped me in that. I can now pass on to the next plane of existence at peace with myself. Blessing to all you seekers of wisdom.

[@marlou169]

Praying is a conversation, the answers are occurances, new insights, feelings of comfort, or motivates me for action...and there is so much to be grateful for!

[@kerrymccarpet]

Really appreciate such an open and accessible conversation on scientifically complex and imaginative subjects. Hope there are many more between you both here!

[@poipoipoicromo]

Portugal. I love this guys!!! Never stop please!!!

[@peterjones6507]

How wonderful to hear intelligent and well-informed people talking to each other.

[@Obilio222]

This was absolutely wonderful! I didn’t think I could be more satisfied and then you brought up Micheal Levin. I think the three of you are the future of science today if it is going to go anywhere important, which I hope it does. We have spent most of my life learning what does not work (I’m 64). I remain optimistic that you all have paved the way for a “new/old” shift in thinking . Thanks so much for this!

[@nickidaisydandelion4044]

The problem I have with Michael Levin is that he conducts tests on animals in laboratories. And I told him that.

[@eviechris1]

I cannot express the joy of having had the opportunity to listen to this conversation. Had I been born earlier this material would not have been made available to me unless I traveled a great distance! I have so much appreciation for the works of both of these brilliant minds, and I am grateful for the information shared, the respect for each other, and the good humor; priceless!

[@wendyg8536]

A wonderful conversation from a few of the loveliest minds in our world today. Thank you. Sad it was cut short at a point of discussion and crux of relevance today in regards to magnetic fields..which in our environment are now overwhelming our natural rhythm and resonance to a wholistic existance by their commercial and destructive application by technology to the point of pollution of the ether, severing by intensified artificial order the creative and natural principle of chaos.

[@anonymoushuman8344]

I fell asleep with this video playing and found myself between the esteemed discussants, as if the conversation was happening live and I was right there. But instead of Sheldrake and McGilchrist, the interlocutors were two old school friends that I haven't seen in many years. I couldn't get a word in edgewise! :)

[@carlalakins]

I was just talking about Dr Sheldrake (one of my favorite people) …. and here he is … 3 hours later!

[@philgatt3069]

Listening from Cottesloe, Western Australia on a warm, sunny Saturday morning post shallow water snorkel where the profound experience is the inter-connected of all things. Nature, its appreciation of it and the irrefutable truth that I'm in it helps shut down the default network. Extraordinarily ordinary is this primacy of consciousness. Breathing in and breathing out. Inspire and expire. Antidote to despair and depression. Thankyou Rupert and Ian. We need you. I need you as inspirers of the non-material reality of life

[@Dan_Izvoranu]

Birmingham UK/ Thank you very much indeed for this wonderful interview 🙏

[@IndradhanuSingingHeart369]

I soooo appreciate being able to listen in on these wonderful conversations. Two absolute Titans of they're game.

[@mortalclown3812]

Valuable time spent with those who further insight re: the continuation and especially the connectedness of consciousness. Thank you, Dr. Sheldrake. To many of us, there is nothing more important in this life. Paz y luz 💫 from Los Angeles (by way of Alabama)

[@oogway73]

Deluded freemasons love what they consider secretive.

[@KR-jq3mj]

Champion duo

[@GuerrillaNature]

Leicester, UK. Two of the finest minds on the planet in such deep discussion about one of the most important subjects we could contemplate is greatly appreciated .Thank you so much! 💜

[@william91786]

I wish Terence was still with us to contribute to these discussions!

[@peterfrance702]

Terence would cartwheel all over this conversation.)

[@FoursWithin]

That would be interesting in this talk . I've only seen part of this but the way Sheldrake talks about Christianity while Terrences has voiced almost the opposite we could hear how they work out their different opinions and perspective.

[@william91786]

@@FoursWithin Yes, I really enjoyed the trialogue series because of this.

[@WhiteStoneName]

1:02:37 “the Trinity is the best explanation of panentheism.” - Dr. McGilchrist

[@amanitamuscaria7500]

The time has come, the Walrus said, to talk of many things. Of sailing ships and sealing wax, and cabbages and kings. And whether the sea is boiling hot, and whether pigs have wings. Brilliant conversation. Thank you all.

[@peterfrance702]

“There are more things in my cup of tea, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” I think it was Hamlet who said that.

[@michaelpisapia4866]

North Carolina, USA. Wonderful conversation.

[@Arrian1111]

I'm circumventing the reading scenario by listening to 'The Master and his Emissary' in audio format. It's a far harder read than 'The Science Delusion', for the relatively uneducated. But hearing this talk has inspired me to buy the The 'Science Delusion' again as I see it's narrated by the author! I can't get enough of Iain McGilchrist's talks. However, on the point of prayer (41 mins), the new testament sees Jesus praying to be spared the sacrificial death. The Lord's Prayer is also a litany of petitions.

[@mortalclown3812]

Your post reminds me that, decades ago, when I got sober via 12-steps, I discovered power in an abbreviated prayer. I started simply 'sending up' two words: 'Thy will'. My reasoning, such as it is, is comprised of the belief that (God) Universal Sentience is far more loving, abundant, witty etc than my own silly will. And I don't pray 'for' people or situations as much as envision them flowing into a more optimal space. Of course, that doesn't always happen. That's when 'the Serenity Prayer' is second base. I so wish that groups of us 'sending up' powerful intentions could become a thing - and one wholly apart from religion which can chop up God like so many pieces of pie.

[@mahtabmawla8792]

Thank you so much gentlemen for this scintillating conversation. Please continue this. 🙏🏽

[@DadaNabhaniilanandaTheMonkDude]

The Varities of Religious Experience was the first spiritual book I read when I was 19. At that pivotal point in my life it brought me tremendous clarity and comfort.

[@mariabyrne1954]

There is an appetite for these conversations....it's so wonderful Thank you both

[@johansigg3869]

Rupert mentioned David Bentley Hart, a thoroughly underrated theologian

[@NoeticEidetics]

I love hearing Rupert Sheldrake reference Charles Taylor, probably the greatest living philosopher. Both Sheldrake and Taylor are intellectual heroes to me.

[@edybrasfield1345]

Thanks so much for giving us access to your wisdom. Blessings

[@yasminp.f.5444]

This was absolutely fascinating, I hope they have another lengthy conversation such as this one because they can really complement one another and come up with very interesting common ideas.

[@nickwest9039]

Two legends have read them for years. Awesome thanks.

[@cheri238]

Thank you all again.❤

[@ash9x9]

Consciousness is inherent in matter - Only the degree varies. It is almost dormant in the matter. As things get sentient, Consciousness evolves therein.

[@aalexjohna]

You lie.

[@nicoavella3843]

Or perhaps matter is an appearance in consciousness. Not human consciousness, but consciousness as an ontological "substrate." And the increase of degrees is of meta-consciousness, or the ability of consciousness to re-represent itself as an object of experience.

[@pugix]

I was drawn to this conversation because of the title, and also because I've read Iain McGilchrist's books. And there is also a synchronicity, since I am just up to the chapter on mysticism in The Varieties of Religious Experience, which I returned to recently, having read it over forty years ago. It is a remarkable book.

[@user-kv7bs7ug8u]

I’am from Chicago, Illinois . Looking forward to receiving my books. (The Matter With Things) ❤

[@jimjiminy5836]

Hi Chicago. Love from England🙏

[@mills8102]

I am inspired to continue my reading of the collected works of William James. Thank you gentlemen for sharing this conversation with us.

[@suecheshire1591]

Wonderful dialogue - thank you! The image of the magnets' attraction finally overcoming their repulsion from each other parallels the notion of tikkun olam from Kabbalah.

[@LibriumMusic]

Thank you so much for bringing these brilliant minds together 🙏 I think it would be lovely to have a conversation with Bernardo Kastrup as well, his thinking is much on the same track.

[@tangerinebreeze6474]

A Most Important Conversation.....at this moment in History.... Well Done, KZbin !!!!

[@ronalddegoede]

❤

[@ninasimpson7669]

Excellent talk by Rupert.

[@luisr.comolli4828]

Outstanding

[@johnnicholas1488]

For years now, I've known my brain is porous. Over seventy years back, mother informed me I have a hole in my head. Bless her she was correct. I have spent a life time proving true mother's kind proposition.

[@nickidaisydandelion4044]

Wonderful.

[@allanrogers865]

That is fantastic. Imagine my pleasure when this appeared today. My two top thinkers alive. The Bible does not say "be still and calculate that I am God", but instead "be still and know that I am God". We all know this experience. The joke IS funny. The love IS real.

[@Finn11233]

Fantastic, thank you - a real pleasure.

[@jamesridener3573]

I can’t help but think of Gebser when I hear Iain describe the social impacts of left and right brain thinking and how dominance of one over the other sways our collective way of thinking. I imagine Gebser’s Archaic structure as being exclusively right brain, with the movement from Magical to Mythical to Mental mirroring the shift over to exclusively left brain. The Integral structure would be the ideal harmony of both hemispheres, reaping all of the benefits that each way of thinking makes available.

[@mrickenbacherwest]

Shaking up a bag of magnets is a perfect way to title these talks and to think about life. cheers

[@oliverjamito9902]

Thank you Pop Rupert for attending...with my pop Lain! Attending unto our OWN. Specially unto our OWN who am I? Hiers gratitude and Honor commanded to provide space and room to grow! Indeed from Here GROWS!

[@PLACEBOBECALP]

Rupert is a fantastic communicator, i would love to interview him as i would propose questions that he doesn't usually get asked. The fact is these perceptibility is like a skill which is practised, you can play any instrument instantly it requires trying testing and study. But belief is just a nudge in the right direction, belief is nothing without experience, otherwise it's nothing but trust in someone else's word. Believe anything you like, believe anything you desire, but KNOW only what you experience, see the difference it's truly a massive gap.

[@DaleRogers]

Getting the recording from Nashville, TN. I’m a student of New Thought. Very much in line with Dr. Sheldrake.

[@rrosaseconda]

Thank you.

[@louisefincham]

Brilliant and fascinating. Thank you. Best wishes from South Africa

[@karolewebster9741]

Excellence - from two excellent minds. Thank you.

[@Frederer59]

Cobourg, Ontario.

[@HeronMarkBlade]

wonderful

[@joygwin6673]

love!!!

[@jordanedgeley6601]

Beautiful discussion ❤❤❤

[@tinfoilhatscholar]

That final line on the law of attraction was just wonderful. I wonder, has the good Sir Sheldrake studied the work of Schauberger? In my understanding, and in a corroboration with the primary thesis of 'comprehend and copy nature', there are fundamentally two different forces in the universe; that of explosion and that of implosion. The yin and yang, feminine and masculine, which possibly co-mingle in a process we like to call love. "Energy is primary and form is secondary" Excellent chat, thanks for having and sharing

[@timbeck6726]

Form follows function. "Comprehend and follow nature." The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience. A process that can't be understood by stopping it. We must move with the flow of the process. We must join it. We must flow with it. Let Go. - Denis Villeneuve's Dune

[@viola1972]

Loved it!

[@pw4444]

Thank you All for this wonderful discussion .❤🙏.I would love to see Bruce Lipton with in the next session.

[@EHGrows]

Greeting from Los Angeles, CA. Exited to listen to this and blessed day everyone!

[@EHGrows]

Rupert’s comment on magnets pushing and pulling and the whole movement not being symmetrical is quite a statement. There seems to be an order to pull, suggesting a force forward? Lovely conversation, thank you gentlemen!

[@oogway73]

​@@EHGrowsWhy are you people so narcissistic?

[@arawiri]

Consciousness is 6500 years older, happy birthday Consciousness

[@EricYoungArt]

Great conversation, I'm so glad Michael Levins work was mentioned. Ever since I learned of his work I thought it confirmed so much in the Morphic Field theory. I can't wait for me conversations like this!

[@blessedbeing9993]

Unity is always Primary❤

[@SimoneMancini1]

São Paulo, Brazil

[@DeadManVlog]

Love this.

[@estellekingshott429]

Selby Victoria Australia thank you ❤❤❤

[@MikeFuller-ok6ok]

Plato believed in a spiritual existence of our place in the universe and believed we should look to the cosmos for answers. Aristotle had a more Earthly based view of reality, and this is what Raphael depicted of the two philosophers in his famous painting 'The School of Athens', Plato pointing to the heavens, and Aristotle holding the palm of his hand down to indicate the Earth.

[@mortalclown3812]

I'm quite right-brained and have difficulty understanding astrophysics, for example, but looking heavenward, i.e. the JWST discoveries, presses my spirit to thoughts of Divinity - and how we all might access it together. Even a new comment can bring hope or illuminate an old one I'd forgotten about. Grateful to be part of this community. 💫🛸🌙

[@MikeFuller-ok6ok]

@@mortalclown3812 Plato had the idea that mathematical forms conform to a heavenly state, that the physical universe has a type of higher function with it too. The brain's consciousness perhaps behaves in a higher functioning level than what can be easily perceived in a purely literal sense. This may seem like spiritual nonsense but how does a brain composed of matter possibly produce thoughts? This question has baffled neuroscientists and philosophers for a long time. However, if the mind occupies a ghostly state outside the purely physical processes of the brain then this may make some sense and help to solve the mind / matter paradox. I personally think that thoughts are purely physical processes but just at a very small scale in the brain. Consciousness at a small scale though is as counter intuitive as consciousness at any level. But I do believe thoughts are purely physical happenings in the brain a a very deep level.

[@NoeticEidetics]

It’s interesting, again, to bring Husserl back in to this. At 1:00:00 McGilchrist talks about consciousness being the basic reality. For Husserl there is a distinction between the way nature works and the way the person or consciousness works. Nature (questions of standard physics and biology discourse-things that need to be re-thought and redefined contra mechanistic materialism) is the domain of causality. Husserl contrasts that with the distinction of spirit which is to do with the domain of motivation: motivation is the fundamental “lawfulness” of spiritual life (Husserl, Ideas II) and is more basic than causality. For Husserl, these domains of spirit and nature contrast but are interpenetrative.

[@highvirusjef]

Portland, Oregon Thank you!

[@Phoeagdor]

Yes, kettle is on, part two please. Great discussion. My brain is noded out of its mind, which is where these two men might suggest it truly lies.

[@garyjohnson1466]

As a right dominate hemisphere, empath, this was a most enjoyably interesting discussion, thank you !

[@mysticbeastproductions6811]

In 1997 I had a spiritual awakening that culminated in a mystical union, Three months of crazy brain activity eventually settled down. I immediately knew that my brain had undergone a literal transformation, an evolutionary leap actually. I was an atheist until then..

[@fionacrowe9216]

Will there be a part 2?

[@mfr58]

Ian's opening sentiment says it all.....Unless we re-engage with our spiritual world, no socio-economic-cultural, reforms will amount to a hill of beans....That's it, no need to intellectualise any further...just do the work and trust in the divine....

[@paullemay9573]

Well done chaps! Fields. Remember, Teilhard de Chardin talked about an "attractor'. Also, hello from rainy Vancouver, BC Rupert (co-author of Primal Mind, Primal Games)

[@missh1774]

The problem with the positive thinking mindset is that it doesn't allow for variation. In fact when a suggestion or noticing is being shared as a positive critique...it often becomes sense deprived and can instead be misinterpreted as the negative projection, or jealous, or affirming weaknesses, rather than nurturing a co-constructing practice for insight with others. But it doesn't stop there. The value sets are challenged, then the family value sets are challenged, and more importantly the worldview sets are challenged. And if your lucky, you won't be disowned, attacked, made into a crazy person or targeted as having ulterior motives who questions for personal manipulation. See... sense deprived does that. It completely misses the love, care and familial security of being their number one supporter. Woops lol. I went on tangent. Love the rich context behind each of your work. Thank you Ian and Rupert.

[@lorilea3188]

Staggeringly clever.

[@ALavin-en1kr]

We cannot mentally know that God exists, we can only believe. An experience of God’s existence removes all doubt when that experience is no different from the experience that we exist there is absolute certainty.

[@starobservers9862]

You guys are really smart

[@Frederer59]

Dr. David Martin (of covid vaccine patent investigation fame) said we have 12 senses, one in each cranial nerve. Most of them are atrophied or even covered-up intentionally, he says. He mentioned the Catholic priest's collar and skullcap as examples. Perfect pitch in music and the sense of being watched were two other examples.

[@mortalclown3812]

I could feel my pupils get larger as I read your fascinating post. Looking this up right away. Merci! 💫

[@vagnercocato8264]

BRASIL !! EXCELLENT .. GOD BLESS

[@nochesdad]

I tend toward Dr. Sheldrake's view about the personal "experience" of the divine in a psychedelic personal event. From where I sit, ultimately, it comes down to how each individual human evaluates the experience. I have had the "experience" of what I interpreted as "the divine" that I have interpreted as ultimately metaphysically "real" ---however, I preface this with the limiting element ---that it is real to me personally. I allow that each individual has the right to be validated in their personal experience. I took great comfort and personal understanding with Carl Jung was asked whether he believed in God---his response was an immediate---"I know there is a God." I simply do not make this a universal truth. Each person, from where I sit, has permission to come to his or her own conclusion. It sounds like Dr. Gilchrist is leaning toward the idea that "truth" must be validated not only through the individual but through a larger human collective. Thanks so much. Great conversation.

[@Roman-Pregolin]

That everything is at core relationships is my big conclusion from life

[@aaronfromohio8895]

These two guys together? 😍🤩🤯

[@TheCrossingBall]

Wonderful exchange. I am so glad we have Rupert to remind the science community of their biases.

[@martinarreguy2984]

Pecos Texas The Yano Etacado love Rupert, morphic resonance. Love his conversations with Terrance McKenna, admiration greatly!!

[@gideonsikk8733]

Strange how we suppose we are above animals and nature and yet mostly spend our intellectual endeavours trying to get back to our instinctive way of being. Big fan of sheldrake 😊 🍄..if u pray for gain, doesn't that mean u create a Loss in a polarised creation..

[@givemorephilosophy]

16:16 Experience is what the life atom is capable of 😊😊 along with understanding, evaluation, validation, tasting

[@BomTaileyVideo]

What a phenomenal conversation! Surely two of the most important thinkers of our complex and challenging age. Thank you. If I may - it’s strange to have your little pre-conversation not edited out. Of course of one level it really doesn’t matter but it perhaps speaks to a broader question about your comms, and how your are disseminating your ‘content’ online. So much more could be done to spread the messages you are relaying, ’build your audience,’ and so on. Perhaps you think that all slightly vulgar, and of course it is on one level. But both of your work should be reaching a much larger / broader audience and there is a game to play and I wonder if you might be slightly caught in legacy media landscape thinking. I’d be very interested to see what the effects on society would be if you both had Jordan Peterson type reach. Personally I’d be excited to see that. All the best. And thank you again.

[@TheDAT9]

Look at their upbringing, they are incapable of vulgariy.

[@goldwhitedragon]

Hi, Rupert. Ever considered getting Chris Langan on? You both are Christians and share a lot in common.

[@WhiteStoneName]

47:00 “celestial Amazon” 😅👏🏼

[@SonicDruid1]

❤❤❤

[@givemorephilosophy]

14:59 The place of consciousness is the saturated complete atom that become sentient😊😊😊

[@MrPochybovac]

Hi all, is there any way to get this paper by Tanya Luhrmann - Porous Mind, which Rupert talks about in 20:40 ? Thank you for any suggestions.

[@elizabethwatson4209]

A bit late but I’m in Sheffield uk 🧡