Dr Iain McGilchrist - The Intersection of Consciousness and Matter - Beyond the Brain 2023

[@mrscpc1918]

Lancashire uk The presence of Rupert in the world makes me glad to be alive.

[@karengallegos750]

✌️🤩happy to be alive in the times of Rupert 🙏❤️

[@mrscpc1918]

@@StarHuman-ii4re what is what ? What are you referring to that you never heard of ?

[@mrscpc1918]

@@StarHuman-ii4re it’s hard to know where to start really. His background covers decades of wide ranging study from biochemistry/ pharmaceutical/ botany / philosophy/ physiology etc , but it is his willingness to step beyond the bounds of ridged scientific ideologies and discuss and experiment with what has often been dismissed as pseudo science by many still uneasy with the nature of consciousness and the universe and what abilities we may or may not have. He is a mystic to many and happily combines spiritual/ religious and scientific fields in an interesting and thoughtful manner. He is an author and father to amazing sons and has been in a long marriage to another author Jill. He has written many books often related to interesting experiments. He also has a web site full of fascinating things.

[@mrscpc1918]

@@StarHuman-ii4re his critics are uneasy ( did you misunderstand me ). I’m afraid I didn’t get what you meant about college kids. He is learnéd and sensitive and educated beyond measure. A truly remarkable human. His books are great despite the wide ranging areas of subject. Hope that helps you.

[@PlumGustave]

@@StarHuman-ii4rewhat ignorant, sad and bizarre comments..

[@maryhitchcock-nn1nm]

I am in boise Idaho usa. Upon waking to our first snow of the season, I began my day by looking up anything new from Rupert and/or Ian. What a thrill to find this podcast. It is 7:15am

[@vickigriffiths6800]

Hi Mary - I'm Sandpoint ID (just moved here from the UK)..and it snowing here too!

[@lovanah]

Your comment is so wholesome, and reminds me of my own days

[@jimjiminy5836]

Big shout out ( hello) to Boise, from an Englishman in loas.

[@scotland_from_up_high7440]

Can't wait to listen to this on my long drive to the north of Scotland this morning

[@marlou169]

Praying is a conversation, the answers are occurances, new insights, feelings of comfort, or motivates me for action...and there is so much to be grateful for!

[@borderlands6606]

One of the blessings of new media, is the platform it has provided for longform discussions of this kind. MSM has abandoned any pretences to serious discussion, hamstrung by assumed audience attention levels, viewing figures, commercial imperatives and political bias.

[@mortalclown3812]

Sad truth in these words. I'm in the US which feels particularly adrift from and even hostile to these topics.

[@georgegolitzin6196]

I was only sad that this conversation had to end! I am a great fan of Rupert, but have not yet read Dr McGilchrist. Well I shall remedy that soon. Thank you both, your conversation is like a spiritual rainfall in the middle of a materialist desert.

[@kt4774]

Dr. McGilchrist has written a wonderful 2 volume set 'The Matter With Things'. It is awesome. Also if you can fine the tiny book 'Ways Of Attending'; another treasure.

[@siyaindagulag.]

Well then ! You are in for a treat. The type of which; should we all indulge , bring great much needed change. Fine metaphor btw. .

[@georgegolitzin6196]

​@@kt4774 thank you for the tip!

[@georgegolitzin6196]

​@@siyaindagulag. Thank you for the encouragement!

[@siyaindagulag.]

simile....oh well ! 😉

[@kerrymccarpet]

Really appreciate such an open and accessible conversation on scientifically complex and imaginative subjects. Hope there are many more between you both here!

[@TheDAT9]

Because I have nothing but respect for these two, I could listen to them all day. I followed the standard path. I was brought up a Christiane by my mother and the church When I got into adolescence I dismissed it all as superstitious nonsense. I spent my working life designing, making, and fixing machines I true mechanic. When I retired I started looking around at the World, and didn't like what I saw. I now know what I am, and why I am here. These two gentlemen have helped me in that. I can now pass on to the next plane of existence at peace with myself. Blessing to all you seekers of wisdom.

[@philgatt3069]

Listening from Cottesloe, Western Australia on a warm, sunny Saturday morning post shallow water snorkel where the profound experience is the inter-connected of all things. Nature, its appreciation of it and the irrefutable truth that I'm in it helps shut down the default network. Extraordinarily ordinary is this primacy of consciousness. Breathing in and breathing out. Inspire and expire. Antidote to despair and depression. Thankyou Rupert and Ian. We need you. I need you as inspirers of the non-material reality of life

[@peterjones6507]

How wonderful to hear intelligent and well-informed people talking to each other.

[@elogiud]

I cannot express the joy of having had the opportunity to listen to this conversation. Had I been born earlier this material would not have been made available to me unless I traveled a great distance! I have so much appreciation for the works of both of these brilliant minds, and I am grateful for the information shared, the respect for each other, and the good humor; priceless!

[@poipoipoicromo]

Portugal. I love this guys!!! Never stop please!!!

[@william91786]

I wish Terence was still with us to contribute to these discussions!

[@peterfrance702]

Terence would cartwheel all over this conversation.)

[@FoursWithin]

That would be interesting in this talk . I've only seen part of this but the way Sheldrake talks about Christianity while Terrences has voiced almost the opposite we could hear how they work out their different opinions and perspective.

[@william91786]

@@FoursWithin Yes, I really enjoyed the trialogue series because of this.

[@Obilio222]

This was absolutely wonderful! I didn’t think I could be more satisfied and then you brought up Micheal Levin. I think the three of you are the future of science today if it is going to go anywhere important, which I hope it does. We have spent most of my life learning what does not work (I’m 64). I remain optimistic that you all have paved the way for a “new/old” shift in thinking . Thanks so much for this!

[@nickidaisydandelion4044]

The problem I have with Michael Levin is that he conducts tests on animals in laboratories. And I told him that.

[@anonymoushuman8344]

I fell asleep with this video playing and found myself between the esteemed discussants, as if the conversation was happening live and I was right there. But instead of Sheldrake and McGilchrist, the interlocutors were two old school friends that I haven't seen in many years. I couldn't get a word in edgewise! :)

[@sun.sneezer]

Dr. McGilchrist is a wonderful example of a Jnana Yogi... does he know this? :) seems he has come very close to Illumination via study, language, rationality. As he acknowledges that all fundamental truths are metaphorical in nature (11:19), this is a marker of true wisdom. Capital T Truth is unlanguageable. Brilliant minds inevitably rise to the light. Kudos that he has not got stuck in the many traps of the Western mind... no dogma, no ideology, no bullish hill to die on... finding his way in, around, and out of the brutalist labyrinths of Logic. Bravo ✨

[@cheri238]

Thank you all again.❤

[@DadaNabhaniilanandaTheMonkDude]

The Varities of Religious Experience was the first spiritual book I read when I was 19. At that pivotal point in my life it brought me tremendous clarity and comfort.

[@IndradhanuSingingHeart369]

I soooo appreciate being able to listen in on these wonderful conversations. Two absolute Titans of they're game.

[@GuerrillaNature]

Leicester, UK. Two of the finest minds on the planet in such deep discussion about one of the most important subjects we could contemplate is greatly appreciated .Thank you so much! 💜

[@wendyg8536]

A wonderful conversation from a few of the loveliest minds in our world today. Thank you. Sad it was cut short at a point of discussion and crux of relevance today in regards to magnetic fields..which in our environment are now overwhelming our natural rhythm and resonance to a wholistic existance by their commercial and destructive application by technology to the point of pollution of the ether, severing by intensified artificial order the creative and natural principle of chaos.

[@edybrasfield1345]

Thanks so much for giving us access to your wisdom. Blessings

[@Arrian1111]

I'm circumventing the reading scenario by listening to 'The Master and his Emissary' in audio format. It's a far harder read than 'The Science Delusion', for the relatively uneducated. But hearing this talk has inspired me to buy the The 'Science Delusion' again as I see it's narrated by the author! I can't get enough of Iain McGilchrist's talks. However, on the point of prayer (41 mins), the new testament sees Jesus praying to be spared the sacrificial death. The Lord's Prayer is also a litany of petitions.

[@mortalclown3812]

Your post reminds me that, decades ago, when I got sober via 12-steps, I discovered power in an abbreviated prayer. I started simply 'sending up' two words: 'Thy will'. My reasoning, such as it is, is comprised of the belief that (God) Universal Sentience is far more loving, abundant, witty etc than my own silly will. And I don't pray 'for' people or situations as much as envision them flowing into a more optimal space. Of course, that doesn't always happen. That's when 'the Serenity Prayer' is second base. I so wish that groups of us 'sending up' powerful intentions could become a thing - and one wholly apart from religion which can chop up God like so many pieces of pie.

[@mortalclown3812]

Valuable time spent with those who further insight re: the continuation and especially the connectedness of consciousness. Thank you, Dr. Sheldrake. To many of us, there is nothing more important in this life. Paz y luz 💫 from Los Angeles (by way of Alabama)

[@oogway73]

Deluded freemasons love what they consider secretive.

[@JessicaCooper-m4i]

I’am from Chicago, Illinois . Looking forward to receiving my books. (The Matter With Things) ❤

[@jimjiminy5836]

Hi Chicago. Love from England🙏

[@ash9x9]

Consciousness is inherent in matter - Only the degree varies. It is almost dormant in the matter. As things get sentient, Consciousness evolves therein.

[@aalexjohna]

You lie.

[@nicoavella3843]

Or perhaps matter is an appearance in consciousness. Not human consciousness, but consciousness as an ontological "substrate." And the increase of degrees is of meta-consciousness, or the ability of consciousness to re-represent itself as an object of experience.

[@amanitamuscaria7500]

The time has come, the Walrus said, to talk of many things. Of sailing ships and sealing wax, and cabbages and kings. And whether the sea is boiling hot, and whether pigs have wings. Brilliant conversation. Thank you all.

[@peterfrance702]

“There are more things in my cup of tea, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” I think it was Hamlet who said that.

[@michaelpisapia4866]

North Carolina, USA. Wonderful conversation.

[@mariabyrne1954]

There is an appetite for these conversations....it's so wonderful Thank you both

[@yasminp.f.5444]

This was absolutely fascinating, I hope they have another lengthy conversation such as this one because they can really complement one another and come up with very interesting common ideas.

[@johansigg3869]

Rupert mentioned David Bentley Hart, a thoroughly underrated theologian

[@mahtabmawla8792]

Thank you so much gentlemen for this scintillating conversation. Please continue this. 🙏🏽

[@fionacrowe9216]

Will there be a part 2?

[@WhiteStoneName]

1:02:37 “the Trinity is the best explanation of panentheism.” - Dr. McGilchrist

[@carlalakins]

I was just talking about Dr Sheldrake (one of my favorite people) …. and here he is … 3 hours later!

[@Dan_Izvoranu]

Birmingham UK/ Thank you very much indeed for this wonderful interview 🙏

[@DaleRogers]

Getting the recording from Nashville, TN. I’m a student of New Thought. Very much in line with Dr. Sheldrake.

[@mills8102]

I am inspired to continue my reading of the collected works of William James. Thank you gentlemen for sharing this conversation with us.

[@mrickenbacherwest]

Shaking up a bag of magnets is a perfect way to title these talks and to think about life. cheers

[@KR-jq3mj]

Champion duo

[@nickwest9039]

Two legends have read them for years. Awesome thanks.

[@tangerinebreeze6474]

A Most Important Conversation.....at this moment in History.... Well Done, KZbin !!!!

[@LibriumMusic]

Thank you so much for bringing these brilliant minds together 🙏 I think it would be lovely to have a conversation with Bernardo Kastrup as well, his thinking is much on the same track.

[@Fintan33]

Fantastic, thank you - a real pleasure.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Thank you Pop Rupert for attending...with my pop Lain! Attending unto our OWN. Specially unto our OWN who am I? Hiers gratitude and Honor commanded to provide space and room to grow! Indeed from Here GROWS!

[@MrPochybovac]

Hi all, is there any way to get this paper by Tanya Luhrmann - Porous Mind, which Rupert talks about in 20:40 ? Thank you for any suggestions.

[@pugix]

I was drawn to this conversation because of the title, and also because I've read Iain McGilchrist's books. And there is also a synchronicity, since I am just up to the chapter on mysticism in The Varieties of Religious Experience, which I returned to recently, having read it over forty years ago. It is a remarkable book.

[@NoeticEidetics]

I love hearing Rupert Sheldrake reference Charles Taylor, probably the greatest living philosopher. Both Sheldrake and Taylor are intellectual heroes to me.

[@MrLoonzy]

Rupert is a fantastic communicator, i would love to interview him as i would propose questions that he doesn't usually get asked. The fact is these perceptibility is like a skill which is practised, you can play any instrument instantly it requires trying testing and study. But belief is just a nudge in the right direction, belief is nothing without experience, otherwise it's nothing but trust in someone else's word. Believe anything you like, believe anything you desire, but KNOW only what you experience, see the difference it's truly a massive gap.

[@anoopmahadevan5889]

Summary Dr. Iain McGilchrist discusses the intersection of consciousness and matter, emphasizing the spiritual foundation of human existence and the limitations of materialist views. Highlights 🌍 Exploration of consciousness as foundational to human experience. 📖 Discussion of William James’s influence on understanding spirituality. 🌌 Contrast between panpsychism and panentheism in explaining consciousness. 🔄 Memory and consciousness linked through morphic fields, not just neurons. 🧠 Importance of right and left brain hemispheres in spiritual experiences. ✨ The necessity of creating a space for spiritual experiences through practices like prayer and meditation. 🔍 Critique of materialist perspectives on consciousness and memory. Key Insights 🌱 Consciousness as Primary: Consciousness is not a byproduct of matter but its fundamental basis. This shifts the understanding of existence toward a more spiritual framework. 🌟 Spirituality vs. Materialism: Spirituality offers a deeper connection to existence than the materialist view, which often neglects the profound aspects of consciousness and experience. 🧬 Morphic Fields: Memory may reside in morphic fields rather than being solely stored in the brain, suggesting a collective memory influencing individual experiences. ⚖ Balance of Brain Hemispheres: Spiritual experiences often arise from a right-hemisphere dominance, promoting a holistic view of reality over the fragmented left-hemisphere perspective. 🕊 Prayer and Intention: Both prayer and meditation serve as means to connect with a greater reality, emphasizing the importance of intention in spiritual practices. 🔗 Interconnectedness: There is a holistic organization of life, where different levels of existence (cells, tissues, organisms) show a form of intelligence and responsiveness not explained by mere genetics. 🌌 Panentheism: This view reconciles the divine as both immanent and transcendent, offering a richer understanding of existence compared to panpsychism alone.

[@anoopmahadevan5889]

1200

[@EHGrows]

Greeting from Los Angeles, CA. Exited to listen to this and blessed day everyone!

[@EHGrows]

Rupert’s comment on magnets pushing and pulling and the whole movement not being symmetrical is quite a statement. There seems to be an order to pull, suggesting a force forward? Lovely conversation, thank you gentlemen!

[@oogway73]

​@@EHGrowsWhy are you people so narcissistic?

[@givemorephilosophy]

16:16 Experience is what the life atom is capable of 😊😊 along with understanding, evaluation, validation, tasting

[@tinfoilhatscholar]

That final line on the law of attraction was just wonderful. I wonder, has the good Sir Sheldrake studied the work of Schauberger? In my understanding, and in a corroboration with the primary thesis of 'comprehend and copy nature', there are fundamentally two different forces in the universe; that of explosion and that of implosion. The yin and yang, feminine and masculine, which possibly co-mingle in a process we like to call love. "Energy is primary and form is secondary" Excellent chat, thanks for having and sharing

[@timbeck6726]

Form follows function. "Comprehend and follow nature." The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience. A process that can't be understood by stopping it. We must move with the flow of the process. We must join it. We must flow with it. Let Go. - Denis Villeneuve's Dune

[@louisefincham]

Brilliant and fascinating. Thank you. Best wishes from South Africa

[@MikeFuller-ok6ok]

Plato believed in a spiritual existence of our place in the universe and believed we should look to the cosmos for answers. Aristotle had a more Earthly based view of reality, and this is what Raphael depicted of the two philosophers in his famous painting 'The School of Athens', Plato pointing to the heavens, and Aristotle holding the palm of his hand down to indicate the Earth.

[@mortalclown3812]

I'm quite right-brained and have difficulty understanding astrophysics, for example, but looking heavenward, i.e. the JWST discoveries, presses my spirit to thoughts of Divinity - and how we all might access it together. Even a new comment can bring hope or illuminate an old one I'd forgotten about. Grateful to be part of this community. 💫🛸🌙

[@MikeFuller-ok6ok]

@@mortalclown3812 Plato had the idea that mathematical forms conform to a heavenly state, that the physical universe has a type of higher function with it too. The brain's consciousness perhaps behaves in a higher functioning level than what can be easily perceived in a purely literal sense. This may seem like spiritual nonsense but how does a brain composed of matter possibly produce thoughts? This question has baffled neuroscientists and philosophers for a long time. However, if the mind occupies a ghostly state outside the purely physical processes of the brain then this may make some sense and help to solve the mind / matter paradox. I personally think that thoughts are purely physical processes but just at a very small scale in the brain. Consciousness at a small scale though is as counter intuitive as consciousness at any level. But I do believe thoughts are purely physical happenings in the brain a a very deep level.

[@allanrogers865]

That is fantastic. Imagine my pleasure when this appeared today. My two top thinkers alive. The Bible does not say "be still and calculate that I am God", but instead "be still and know that I am God". We all know this experience. The joke IS funny. The love IS real.

[@suecheshire1591]

Wonderful dialogue - thank you! The image of the magnets' attraction finally overcoming their repulsion from each other parallels the notion of tikkun olam from Kabbalah.

[@NoeticEidetics]

It’s interesting, again, to bring Husserl back in to this. At 1:00:00 McGilchrist talks about consciousness being the basic reality. For Husserl there is a distinction between the way nature works and the way the person or consciousness works. Nature (questions of standard physics and biology discourse-things that need to be re-thought and redefined contra mechanistic materialism) is the domain of causality. Husserl contrasts that with the distinction of spirit which is to do with the domain of motivation: motivation is the fundamental “lawfulness” of spiritual life (Husserl, Ideas II) and is more basic than causality. For Husserl, these domains of spirit and nature contrast but are interpenetrative.

[@cathsrq]

Im listening from Sarasota Florida

[@jonathandrew3511]

Does anyone know the Rumi poem/quote in full ? source ? Thanks

[@rrosaseconda]

Thank you.

[@jamesridener3573]

I can’t help but think of Gebser when I hear Iain describe the social impacts of left and right brain thinking and how dominance of one over the other sways our collective way of thinking. I imagine Gebser’s Archaic structure as being exclusively right brain, with the movement from Magical to Mythical to Mental mirroring the shift over to exclusively left brain. The Integral structure would be the ideal harmony of both hemispheres, reaping all of the benefits that each way of thinking makes available.

[@Frederer59]

Dr. David Martin (of covid vaccine patent investigation fame) said we have 12 senses, one in each cranial nerve. Most of them are atrophied or even covered-up intentionally, he says. He mentioned the Catholic priest's collar and skullcap as examples. Perfect pitch in music and the sense of being watched were two other examples.

[@mortalclown3812]

I could feel my pupils get larger as I read your fascinating post. Looking this up right away. Merci! 💫

[@missh1774]

The problem with the positive thinking mindset is that it doesn't allow for variation. In fact when a suggestion or noticing is being shared as a positive critique...it often becomes sense deprived and can instead be misinterpreted as the negative projection, or jealous, or affirming weaknesses, rather than nurturing a co-constructing practice for insight with others. But it doesn't stop there. The value sets are challenged, then the family value sets are challenged, and more importantly the worldview sets are challenged. And if your lucky, you won't be disowned, attacked, made into a crazy person or targeted as having ulterior motives who questions for personal manipulation. See... sense deprived does that. It completely misses the love, care and familial security of being their number one supporter. Woops lol. I went on tangent. Love the rich context behind each of your work. Thank you Ian and Rupert.

[@ronalddegoede]

❤

[@EricYoungArt]

Great conversation, I'm so glad Michael Levins work was mentioned. Ever since I learned of his work I thought it confirmed so much in the Morphic Field theory. I can't wait for me conversations like this!

[@anialiandr]

Anywhere Part 2?

[@Phoeagdor]

Yes, kettle is on, part two please. Great discussion. My brain is noded out of its mind, which is where these two men might suggest it truly lies.

[@johnnicholas1488]

For years now, I've known my brain is porous. Over seventy years back, mother informed me I have a hole in my head. Bless her she was correct. I have spent a life time proving true mother's kind proposition.

[@garyjohnson1466]

As a right dominate hemisphere, empath, this was a most enjoyably interesting discussion, thank you !

[@givemorephilosophy]

10:52 Relations are already in existence and understanding them is possible because of sentience.

[@Anders01]

Yes! Everything is relations, that's what seems to me to be the logical explanation for the foundation of reality. I think it's called relational monism in philosophy, but there seems to be different kinds. My view is what Dr. McGilchrist said, that everything is relations. I think of it as an ever ongoing expansion of Indra's net without the "jewels".

[@EHGrows]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hXXcdIFtYt9_fbsfeature=shared

[@jjuniper274]

I missed the live discussion, and like you to know I'm in Southern Minnesota on the Mississippi River. Pretty much in the middle of North America.

[@luisr.comolli4828]

Outstanding

[@pw4444]

Thank you All for this wonderful discussion .❤🙏.I would love to see Bruce Lipton with in the next session.

[@conradbulos6164]

That consciousness uses the brain and our nervous system as temporary seats by which we deal with the material world not so much to learn but to remember and rediscover who we are and our personal goals of why we chose this temporary material life for the betterment or refinement of our souls as we interact with others on this earthly plane.

[@ninasimpson7669]

Excellent talk by Rupert.

[@aaronfromohio8895]

These two guys together? 😍🤩🤯

[@nickidaisydandelion4044]

Wonderful.

[@mysticbeastproductions6811]

In 1997 I had a spiritual awakening that culminated in a mystical union, Three months of crazy brain activity eventually settled down. I immediately knew that my brain had undergone a literal transformation, an evolutionary leap actually. I was an atheist until then..

[@paullemay9573]

Well done chaps! Fields. Remember, Teilhard de Chardin talked about an "attractor'. Also, hello from rainy Vancouver, BC Rupert (co-author of Primal Mind, Primal Games)

[@MeaningSeekerPod]

Love this.

[@viola1972]

Loved it!

[@highvirusjef]

Portland, Oregon Thank you!

[@ALavin-en1kr]

We cannot mentally know that God exists, we can only believe. An experience of God’s existence removes all doubt when that experience is no different from the experience that we exist there is absolute certainty.

[@karolewebster9741]

Excellence - from two excellent minds. Thank you.

[@nochesdad]

I tend toward Dr. Sheldrake's view about the personal "experience" of the divine in a psychedelic personal event. From where I sit, ultimately, it comes down to how each individual human evaluates the experience. I have had the "experience" of what I interpreted as "the divine" that I have interpreted as ultimately metaphysically "real" ---however, I preface this with the limiting element ---that it is real to me personally. I allow that each individual has the right to be validated in their personal experience. I took great comfort and personal understanding with Carl Jung was asked whether he believed in God---his response was an immediate---"I know there is a God." I simply do not make this a universal truth. Each person, from where I sit, has permission to come to his or her own conclusion. It sounds like Dr. Gilchrist is leaning toward the idea that "truth" must be validated not only through the individual but through a larger human collective. Thanks so much. Great conversation.

[@here_now_I]

What I find over the years is that a lot of people have to experience the following before they have a chance to reflect. That is, they have to go through a lot of pains, or get extraordinary accomplishments which may have caused a lot pains either to themselves or people around them. As such, there doesn't seem be any solution to the problem. Even the speakers themselves here have to go through so many years of struggling.

[@martinarreguy2984]

Pecos Texas The Yano Etacado love Rupert, morphic resonance. Love his conversations with Terrance McKenna, admiration greatly!!

[@HeronMarkBlade]

wonderful

[@BomTaileyVideo]

What a phenomenal conversation! Surely two of the most important thinkers of our complex and challenging age. Thank you. If I may - it’s strange to have your little pre-conversation not edited out. Of course of one level it really doesn’t matter but it perhaps speaks to a broader question about your comms, and how your are disseminating your ‘content’ online. So much more could be done to spread the messages you are relaying, ’build your audience,’ and so on. Perhaps you think that all slightly vulgar, and of course it is on one level. But both of your work should be reaching a much larger / broader audience and there is a game to play and I wonder if you might be slightly caught in legacy media landscape thinking. I’d be very interested to see what the effects on society would be if you both had Jordan Peterson type reach. Personally I’d be excited to see that. All the best. And thank you again.

[@TheDAT9]

Look at their upbringing, they are incapable of vulgariy.

[@lorilea3188]

Staggeringly clever.

[@shooshoojoon4]

Following deeply Iain McGilchrist; the connection felt is instantly destroyed when words, explanations surface. Interestingly Rupert Sheldrake was also puzzled by Krishnamurti in those early days in Ojai when small groups used to converse. It's our dilemma today seeing all religions, originally spoken, taught in words have been highjacked by human brains to create havoc ever since!

[@blessedbeing9993]

Unity is always Primary❤

[@Frederer59]

Cobourg, Ontario.

[@jordanedgeley6601]

Beautiful discussion ❤❤❤

[@givemorephilosophy]

14:59 The place of consciousness is the saturated complete atom that become sentient😊😊😊

[@TheCrossingBall]

Wonderful exchange. I am so glad we have Rupert to remind the science community of their biases.

[@floriescence2552]

At 10:45 in this video, Dr. McGilchrist said “... in fact, relations are absolutely primary. There is nothing that truly exists that is not a relation and is not, in fact, a process, as Whitehead pointed out.” Dr. McGilchrist makes an interesting point about relations being primary. I wish to suggest however that each of the more than a dozen fundamental physical constants of the universe, which are not a “relation” and are not a “process,” are themselves absolutely primary and they truly exist. Fundamental physical constants are fixed quantities that provide the bedrock upon which our understanding of the natural world rests. They underpin the processes and relationships found in nature. Planck’s constant coupled with the Elementary charge (Quantum electrodynamics); the Speed of Light in a vacuum coupled with the Gravitational constant (General Relativity) are prime examples. In the absence of these fundamental constants - which are givens and not derivable from first principles - relations and processes would not exist.

[@greensleeves7165]

I have a request. It would be great to see a long form conversation with these two gentlemen around the subject of the soul and continuation of consciousness after death. I have seen Rupert speak of death like a dreamstate, but it was a relatively short piece and I haven't really heard Iain discuss this area at length. I think it would be a fertile conversation. Near Death Experiences are very interesting, of course, but they mainly seem to disclose what is happening around the immediate minutes and hours of death. What can we say, if anything, about weeks, months, years beyond death? And how might we ever move in a direction where we could get to know such things (I mean, without dying!)? Who or what "are" the dead, really? Are the events and discoveries of our lives preserved in any sense along with our essence, or do they just sort of dissolve away again (which would seem kind of pointless at the end of the day)? And so on. Anyway, just thought I'd put the idea out!

[@FoursWithin]

That conversation would IMO be unusual for these two. Do you have any reading material to suggest that corresponds to the subject of your comment ? I'm curious for ideas on how it might play out , but I'm doubtful the conversation you desire will come any time soon.

[@greensleeves7165]

@@FoursWithin It would be difficult to live coherently in a cosmos of connectedness and meaning if we simply peter out. I think it would be a great topic for both speakers. I've seen both Rupert and Iain allude to it before, but again not in depth. Both of their stances seem to have implications for it, and it would be fantastic to see them explore it in greater depth. There is hardly a more important topic, really, at the end of the day. The understanding that we survive, at least in some form, might have significant implications for altering our collective behaviour, currently on a planetary-level destructive path. I'm not really sure what else is going to be capable of doing that, to be honest.

[@Aaron-xb4rq]

​@@greensleeves7165Perhaps it isn't so much a question of "Who or what 'are' the dead, really?" but rather, who or what are we, the living? Religion, furthermore, has been providing an answer in the affirmative to our survival of death for thousands of years and we see where that has gotten humanity in terms of "altering our collective behavior." The fear of death still reigns supreme and sin abounds because of it. Unfortunately, spiritual terrorism is not bearing the fruit we so desperately need. My guess is that Iain at least may even dismiss the notion of an individual soul and a person's "survival" after death. Yet, seeing all of life as an ever-unfolding process of becoming and the inherent unity of complex multiplicity, he would quite likely say that everyone and everything lives on in that which proceeds it and is a direct result of all that preceded it. And that no one and no thing can be separated from this oneness of being. Seen in this light, the classical religious ideas (especially Christian) of life after death become infantile and in need of serious theological development. Moreover, if there is in fact no life after death for the individual in a Heaven out there somewhere, then this has profound implications on how each human being ought to live and the value of everything in the evolution of the whole of which everyone and everything is inherently a part and can't be separated. The conscious, lived experience of this level of interrelated, inherent unity of being is love. And the manifestation of love is precisely what the world needs.

[@greensleeves7165]

@@Aaron-xb4rq Unfortunately, I don't think that's going to work. I can't say that the idea of being part of some "ongoing process" (however described) does much to assuage my sense of mortality and futility, which is primarily caused by a prospect of individual extinction. Moreover, I don't think that Ian's vision of a changed world really has much prospect of actually happening if this core sense of mortality and futility in human beings is not fully and adequately addressed in a new paradigm, ideally with evidence. I don't see myself as anything special in that regard, so what applies to me must also apply to milliions or tens of millions of others. The core issue is that developing an individual perspective and self IS futile if said self is simpy swept away to the winds again, even if they be deemed "spiritual winds". That has most of the problems of materialism under a different guise, I would say. Although, I am pretty sure that I have seen Ian express the idea that we do carry forward (I mean with the benefits of the individual intact) in some spiritual form. It is this I would like to see him explore, along with Rupert. Even Rupert is imagining participation in a divine expanded consciousness. But in order for it to be "participation" there has to be something of the self that carries forward. Otherwise it is just substitution by another name, imo. In general, I am skeptical of abstract collective "purposes" such as the one you have described. If the unique sense of perspective that an individual brings to existence is somehow lost, then that is a final and genuinely tragic loss, imo.

[@Aaron-xb4rq]

@@greensleeves7165 I humbly challenge you to consider the notion that mortality does not equate to the futility of individual life. This is only the case if one's life is driven and motivated by his or her selfish ego (brought about by the fear of death, typically). The whole point is that the mortal individual's life is of infinite and eternal value in co-creating the future. The fact is, no one and no thing would be as it is without the chain of being which preceded it and from which it can't possibly be separated. Would we ever say that a tree's life is futile because it's mortal? Or a bird? Of course not. All life radiates with inherent beauty and purpose. The immanence of all that is is infused with the transcendent, by nature. To embrace one's mortality is to "die before you die" and to actually live. Otherwise, what is the purpose of life but to acquire some eternal, egoistic reward? On the other hand, to live a life which faces head on one's mortality is a life which sees every moment as infinitely precious and divine, not simply mundane. Reality is non-dual. Human beings cannot be separated from the divine potential of which they (and everything) are a manifestation. Most are simply unaware of this reality and instead "lead lives of quiet desperation," chasing after pleasure and avoiding pain, never really knowing (which means living) the fullness of who they always already are. This is what it means to "participate in a divine expanded consciousness," as Rupert mentions. The divine consciousness which we are transcends space and time, and this can be known experientially by the individual. The proof that you're seeking lies within you. The self which carries forward is the same transcendent self which the immanent individual and everything is. This transcendent self must first be tasted in the depths of one's being and then lived in order to be known. When this transcendent fullness of one's being is experienced by the immanent individual, then the same is recognized in everyone and everything else. This is the collapse of the false dualism of subject and object, and instead the living of non-dual reality. This is experienced as pure, unconditional love. Therefore, "developing an individual perspective and self" is only futile if an individual's knowledge of their self is constrained by the false, dualistic belief that they are a separate self and that everything about their life isn't inherently interrelated to the whole of which they are in fact not separate. We can see then that mortality is not the problem. The fear of mortality which brings about the selfishness of the individual is a problem. The solution is in seeing reality for what it truly is and then consciously living and participating with it as an outpouring and overflowing of unconditional, self-giving love.