Dragons of Old Time: Paleoart in Gilded Age America, 1860-1897

During the late 19th Century, the central hub of paleontological research shifted from Europe to the United States. New discoveries made in the 1860's demonstrated the Richard Owen's vision of dinosaurs as bulky mammal-like quadrupeds was incorrect. The relatively complete remains of Hadrosaurus and Laelaps (later Dryptosaurus) revealed a new image of slender bipedal dinosaurs. Benjamin Waterhouse Hawkins, creator of the famous Crystal Palace sculptures, travelled to the US and was commissioned to design a Paleozoic museum that would stand in Central Park, New York. Unfortunately, this project was shut down by corrupt politician William Tweed.
Later, Hawkins produced a series of paintings now on display at Princeton University, which showed very lanky, almost anthropomorphic visions of Hadrosarus and Laelaps. Later, the activities of Cope and Marsh brought to light an array of spectacular new finds, included iconic animals such as Allosaurus, Brontosaurus and Triceratops. However, little art was produced by the duelling scientists, due to their rather elitist views on science. It wouldn't be until the late 1890's that museums acknowledged the power of dinosaurs to educate and bring in commercial investment. Soon, the thunder lizards would be catapulted into the public consciousness.
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[@zanejohnson9730]

I'm glad to finally see somebody who appreciates old Paleo art. It seems every other video on this topic just makes fun of the past.

[@thursoberwick1948]

Some of it is pretty good art. Very niche interest though and hardly anyone discusses it, like I said.

[@justanotherrandomfilipino9018]

I would like to see a dinosaur nature mockumentary that gets its facts precisely from old paleoart.

[@keithfaulkner6319]

We have it. Look at the early king kong movies.

[@Casmaniac]

There's an old timey movie where cowboys fight stop motion dinosaurs, maybe that's something

[@keithfaulkner6319]

@@Casmaniac or you might try ALL of the Godzilla movies. Nothing realistic there.

[@Casmaniac]

@The Philosoraptor The Valley of Gwangi, 1969. Never saw it, but if you're into old timey movies, it looks like a fun one

[@Casmaniac]

@@keithfaulkner6319 Shin Gojira from 2016 was very good, much better than the American ones

[@DoodersDen]

I love how bizarrely mythical yet familiar the recoconstructions during this era were, theres such a poignant sense of curiosity and development towards how we viewed what the public quite literally perceived as dragons! It gives such a stark snapshot into how our perception of these animals developed over time! Great video Doc!!

[@girlbuu9403]

I have been looking forward to this ever since I saw how non-judgemental and informative you were in the first one. Instead of the usual "Haha look how dumb these early paleontologists were" it is "this is why they thought this, they didn't have the power of hindsight like us" and I can't put into words how happy that approach makes me.

[@seanmckelvey6618]

I think my favorite take away from these old paleoart pieces is that, at the end of the day, good art is good art regardless of scientific accuracy. Hawkins paintings have an almost biblical quality to them, which makes sense given the time period, but it leaves a real impact & really gets the imagination going. It's also interesting how active and agile his Dryptosaurus interpretation seems, it's almost mammalian in a way. I find that especially interesting because it seems like some of this really early work was on the right track before later interpretations regressed in their ideas.

[@dr.polaris6423]

You’re absolutely right about that! There were some very interesting ideas concerning dinosaurs and other extinct reptiles in these early years. The oldest known image of a pterosaur depicts the animal with fur, Richard Owen imagined dinosaurs to be active and mammal-like and Flammerion showed a fully terrestrial sauropod for example.

[@slapnuts4370]

I feel the same way it’s cool to see how they interpreted dinosaurs I actually collect antique dinosaur toys fore the same reason.

[@42ZaphodB42]

Marsh's comment on paleoart is still remarkably accurate today. Since Jurassic Park, almost every pop-culture dinosaur is still depicted like the movie counterparts (even Jurassic World did not dare change those designs for marketing reasons), although their depictions have changed incredibly early afterwards. Yet, I still think it is important to depict them at all, unlike he said.

[@dr.polaris6423]

In a way I certainly do understand his trepidation about how to communicate scientific discoveries to the public.

[@girlbuu9403]

Assuming it was an accurate representation of his views, Marsh's reasons for hesitation is certainly more understandable than Cope's. Marsh realizing they'd have no way of knowing much about these animals is shockingly refreshing compared to some modern people who go charging in with near absolute certainty and near religious zeal. See: the entire debate concerning feathers on a tyrannosaurus rex which people on both sides of that discussion can take far too personally. Those who say nay usually do so solely for nostalgic purposes but I do see too much certainty being touted on the other side. Either as a response to the zeal of the opposition or out of some misguided notion that newer theories and speculation are automatically better than older ones.

[@garthst.claire3459]

I mean there's at least some pelo art that shows dinosaurs according to the newer/newest findings; feathered raptors, a semi-aquatic Spinosaurus etc. Don't throw out the baby with the bath, so to speak.

[@manzac112]

I find it funny that all this old paleoart looks like some of the creatures that are in the Paleozoic Era and in the Triassic period in some ways or another.

[@_NEPO_]

I feel like I had a stroke reading this

[@kateaveryavery1342]

@@_NEPO_ Why actually?

[@mdalsted]

@@_NEPO_ Why? Do you disagree or is there something wrong with how they wrote it?

[@_NEPO_]

@@kateaveryavery1342 @Martin D. "Some of the creatures that or in the Paleozoic era" I'm assuming he meant "that are in the" but either way I struggled

[@AUstudios]

Try again

[@thedarkmasterthedarkmaster]

The depictions of this time, such as oil paintings really come off as far more energetic, less like the fail creations of Morgoth and more like a race of lizard men from some lost time before Conan, yet perhaps due to being in-between the Victorian and the later work of those such as Charles R. Knight's generation(Which I assume will be covered next?). they lack some of the better aspects of both with the notable exception of the first reconstruction of a Sauropod by that French guy. It's a shame that we never got that large menagerie due to Tweed, whether due to hatred of dinosaurs or just corruption. But it wasn't just him for the reason why there is so little paleoart of this time the scientific community seemed to scoff at the idea. Sure, in the end it would have been as dated as the ones in the crystal palace by today's standards it would still be a good piece of culture and perhaps inspire art like how old victorian depictions do.

[@melvinshine9841]

Hindsight's 20/20, but it's always been funny to me that the breaking of hadrosaur tail bones in order to get them into the tripod stances, apparently, wasn't any kind of tip-off that, just maybe, their tails weren't supposed to do that. I'll always love Leaping Laelaps. Pretty sure I found an updated, more scientifically accurate version of it before, but I've no idea where to start looking for it.

[@dr.polaris6423]

The Leaping Laelaps painting is my favourite example of Knight’s work, taking a surprisingly progressive view of Theropods as active, dynamic animals.

[@keithfaulkner6319]

You just have to think bob baccar loves this painting but jack horner hates it.

[@genghiskhan6809]

Hindsight be 20/20 but still in this particular case, how? What perspective could you possibly have to not think you're doing something wrong?

[@girlbuu9403]

Yeah, that one is definitely on them. I am thinking of what logic he used to justify it. "The projected vertebrae mold must be incorrect" as he didn't have the whole skeleton? But wouldn't you cast a new one with a more flexible tail if that was the case? Or did he just think "Oh, that must have been my fault, I was being too rough with it"?

[@JohnSmith-sk7cg]

@@genghiskhan6809 Fossils can be deformed through geological processes. It's possible that he thought this was the reason it didn't fit correctly.

[@Naivuren]

"[...] error in a case of this kind is very difficult to erradicate from the public mind." Oh, how correct he was

[@GamingIndominus]

Wow, it is awesome awesome that you are doing a entire series on paleoart. I love channels who try to bring topics like this to the public eye, and it also really helps out with my own knowledge as well.

[@GamingIndominus]

@The Philosoraptor yes, I watch her channel every once in a while.

[@dr.polaris6423]

Thanks! I really enjoyed researching this subject and am glad that other people find it just as interesting.

[@GamingIndominus]

@@dr.polaris6423 no probs my friend.

[@ecurewitz]

I love this old depictions of prehistoric life. Thank you

[@mufflerdad5048]

Thank you for making another video on this topic! I love this stuff but have trouble doing my own research, so the work you put in to these are greatly appreciated.

[@bobbenson6825]

Thank you for this series and looking forward to more!

[@nicksanchez3796]

I want a book with all of the paleo art produced by these people. Big, detailed coffee table tome to look through

[@erickiernan1578]

I've heard that they had to break bones to make the skeleton stand the way they wanted them to. I've never heard what was the rationalization behind that though. It's something I've never been able to find out.

[@mdalsted]

Damn... I wonder what would've happened if Tweed's thugs never destroyed the sculptures. Like, would even more sets have been made?

[@dr.polaris6423]

It seems that Hawkins planned a large number of sculptures, although I’m not sure how many were complete by the time of the vandalism. His sketches show giant sloths, mastodons, pterosaurs and an Elasmosaurus as well as various dinosaurs.

[@thatswhatshesaid2777]

poor hawkins. I really want to see what those destroyed statues look like

[@gerikekisgvel]

I would love a video about the Bone Wars!

[@Ahturos]

Those two are really intresting figures to read about. I was like 5 when I had a book for children about Dinosauirs and some really well drawn comic pages depicted those two about the head being on the tail. It was only 6 panels but still I remember it after 25 years. It´s art is very dated but still a fun thing to look back on.

[@joabesouzasantos5671]

congrats on 30k subs! really good content, you deserve it all my man

[@Squeam9750]

Makes me wonder on how would dinosaurs have functioned if these were 100% accurate depictions

[@CwL-1984]

Awesome 👍👍

[@denizen9998]

I really liked the enclosed dinosaur table that all these guys had a party in. Now I want one of those!

[@dynamosaurusimperious2718]

This video was just so amazing

[@thelaughinghyenas8465]

Cool and often beautiful.

[@johnkeane1419]

Brilliant and fascinating. You might want to do something about the depiction of dinosaurs in comics, which also loosely evolved in relation to science.

[@conradojavier7547]

I want a Dinosaur Movie, where they look like Scaly Kangaroos with Super Long Legs, & Bulky Bear like Iguanodons.

[@andrewwynne6934]

1800s Dinosaurs: this creature was a giant reptile that battled every day, lived in swamps, and could breathe fire!!! Modern-Day Dinosaurs: It's a chicken.

[@madderhat5852]

I loved the statue of baby Gamera. And the debate over what the creatures outsides look like continues today.

[@lexietheemeraldminecart]

I whould love a book that just compiles a shit load of victorian paleo art

[@kuitaranheatmorus9932]

I absolutely love this video so much also just seeing these old paleoart is but nostalgic and lovely Also I wish y'all a good mother's day

[@keithfaulkner6319]

I think we should remember that they did the best they could with what they had to work with.

[@eviljoel]

Doesn't excuse the tripod pose.

[@keithfaulkner6319]

@@eviljoel long back legs, short front legs, made some kind of sense.

[@mattmorehouse9685]

When all you have to go on is a bit of jawbone and a tooth, there is a lot of margin for error.

[@Kapojos]

Are there any books about these old paleo artworks???

[@chasechristophermurraydola9314]

Can you do a video on the Loch Ness monster aka Nessie and I am asking because from 565 to 2015 it has been sighted and from 1934 to 2018 people have searched for it and like it’s an interesting creature because a lot of people think it is creatures like eels, otters, Greenland shark, elephant and catfish and people have also thought that what people are seeing is stuff like trees, seiches, wakes, optical effects and seismic gas but even more interesting to me scientists have also thought that it’s an exotic large animal species like plesiosaur, a long necked giant amphibian and an invertebrate and if you don’t mind me asking but when is the next speculative evolution video coming out and I am asking because I really enjoy the series.

[@lightman3581]

Hey Dr Polaris ! Do you think that you will be able to finish the speculative dinosaurs series? It’s such an amazing series and everyone wants to see it being finished. Also what do you think about a “Permian speculative evolution “? series just like you did with Dinosaurs. And you are doing such an good job, keep going strong.

[@cyankirkpatrick5194]

Yes all the tails when I was growing up were drawn to drag just think when I seen a dinosaur with the tail not dragging it blew my mind.

[@lukebrowning4712]

The man was named cope

[@cyankirkpatrick5194]

Uh, Dr. Polaris what is your review on prehistoric planet, I nearly dropped off the seat when I seen the animation of T Rex swimming I mean 🤯💥

[@gattycroc8073]

OMG that's where I live 2:49.

[@DraptorRonin]

I'm gonna guess that the reason we haven't seen any Alter-Earth videos is because we pretty much caught up with your source material?

[@HassanMohamed-jy4kk]

Right after the evolutionary history of Terror Birds, why don’t you also get to make a suggestion to create the KZbin Videos Shows about the Amphicyons (Bear Dogs) in just a couple of weeks to think about that one?!⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️👍👍👍👍👍

[@nono9543]

I wouldn't mind a video game that depicts dinosaurs more like antediluvian monsters over being just animals

[@SuperCretaceousMZ]

The first drawing of the dinosaurs were very weird & wrong :0 Dragons are creatures in mythical stories & in movies ;0

[@averyclevername9012]

type "mythical" again

[@SuperCretaceousMZ]

@@averyclevername9012 Whoops

[@prizrenbucpapaj869]

Yes!

[@ekosubandie2094]

Hard to imagine that the entire Bone Wars Saga happpened because someone couldn't cope (pun intended) with the fact that their fossil reconstruction was wrong.

[@magical2145]

in class right now but I will watch it please tell me if it is good

[@cyankirkpatrick5194]

In a way this is art I mean just think about it they didn't lack in imagination 😂🤣🤣, just out of curiosity is anything from the Crystal Palace survived the blitzkrieg I mean the wild statue's that is.

[@dr.polaris6423]

Yep the vast majority of the Crystal Palace sculptures are still there. You can visit them in Sydenham Park in South London.

[@cyankirkpatrick5194]

@@dr.polaris6423 Oh thank you.

[@blazingtrs6348]

to be honest some of them look like permian synapsids/triassic reptiles

[@cyankirkpatrick5194]

Their dirty deeds were done dirt cheap.😂🤣🤯🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️🤷🤷🏼‍♀️🙄 C'mon you know that is a great song anyway 😂😁🙄😜

[@theholykaremtheholyshibe2029]

Dinosaurs walk on two legs true or false?

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

Depends on species?

[@gilvillamor5066]

this is where godzilla was based! ehheheh

[@dr.floridaman4805]

25 food distribution centers destroyed in the past 6 months

[@cyankirkpatrick5194]

What does that have to do with the subject

[@keithfaulkner6319]

There are always nuts who have to get their pet projects everywhere.

[@coryw3823]

@@keithfaulkner6319 why is he a nut? This has happened

[@keithfaulkner6319]

@@coryw3823 there's a time and a place to address issues, and this, here, is neither.

[@coryw3823]

@@keithfaulkner6319 where is there a time and a place? Lol anyone can ignore this comment

[@spammyv]

For some reason so much paleoart where the subject is front-facing like the background Elasmosaurus at 12:40 remind me of those Simpsons stills where they're front-facing. I can't put my finger on why but these depictions feel similarly "wrong" to me in a way a photograph of a modern animal viewed head-on would not be.