DramaQuest - Toxic Casuals (and Pantheon EA launch)

[@JERRYSkid131]

Bigcrits on Quarm perfectly fits the "toxic casual" title. Doesnt understand camp rules, makes up server rules, gets told hes wrong by GMs, then tries to get you kicked from your guild. Sad little dude there. Take screenshots when you deal with him.

[@Ysu-EQ]

It's pretty simple. All mobs that I want are mine and if you take MY mobs you are toxic.

[@Staysa001]

Frank taught me the trick of clicking the little x on tell windows. Real handy for drama.

[@GC_Rallo]

Started my camp for the Sturdy Tree Branch club on my Paladin at about 9pm EST last night, called it quits after another PH spawned at <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="435">7:15</a> AM. Woke up at noon, logged in, killed 1 PH and 15 minutes later the named mob spawned and I got my club! Definite EQ feels

[@FacelessZaide]

@@GC_Rallo I’m super happy to hear people are enjoying Pantheon. Especially after all the nonsense the team has had to endure over the years. I hope it continues to grow and hits its real launch as a massive success.

[@insidethemindseye1]

Great idea for a series: how to build an effective guild Some ideas I’d love to hear your perspective about: How do you choose an officer? (successes and failure examples would be spicy) What makes a guild leader? (What is your why? for wanting to be a guild leader) How does an effective guild leader handle real life responsibilities w/ the responsibilities of leading an online community? (Success & failure examples would also be spicy) What’s the first thing you should do when wanting to start a guild? Just some ideas looking forward to listening to whatever gets produced

[@donteatpaint]

I think there's enough material for multiple episodes. Looking forward to it!

[@Slayheim]

I've come across your EQ videos in the past, but I just discovered this Podcast series. Good stuff, enjoying it alot. I love the style. Keep up the good work. Thank you :)

[@dluxx7378]

Historically I most commonly shared the view of the Reddit op. After joining Faceless for Teek I saw it from another side. On one end you have a player who shows up to a camp intending to wait out the mob having no clue when it's likely to spawn. On the other you have a player who's done the research to find out when it's likely to spawn and shows up slightly before that time. Both have put in just as much time into obtaining that loot. One is far more smart and efficient than the other. The researcher is potentially gaining several loots in the same time period that the camper is hoping to get one assuming they've done similar research on a few camps. In hindsight I'd rather be the smart player and risk ruffling the time sink campers feathers.

[@donteatpaint]

Poster: "I spent 10 hours camping this mob." Same Poster: "Visionary Realms doesn't respect my time." SMH

[@andyprice2383]

And there will be wipes, so it will be for nothing anyway during alpha. That’s the epitome of having your time wasted.

[@Motorzerker]

The logic seems flawed to me. "I'd rather have DPS races. You can't outclick a bot but you can outDPS a bot if you plan carefully." And they can script up a crew of HTing, (or other DPS mechanic like Plane wands) to out DPS you at anytime too if that's the norm. They also typically can roll up with a large bot crew faster than you can gather a crew. I seem to remember certain server DPS races where the winner of those races was who's script was best. Also, using your "Michael Phelps!" swimming reference, take that back to camping an item. If you are swimming in a lane or at the gym working out, what is the proper courtesy? Do you wait for the person who was there first (camping an item) to be done or do you yank away the weights from them because you are stronger or more aggressive/less courteous? In your examples, taking away their weights is OK because they aren't entitled to use them just because they were there first because you both want to use them.

[@FacelessZaide]

@@Motorzerker You assume that they can produce as much dps as a group of real humans which is only the case if the mob is dying more or less instantly (very atypical). The Michael Phelps reference was related to something entirely different. Why are you using it for the camp dispute conversation?

[@jessemaccharles-hf2fk]

Great episode, Many Cheers from the Gnomes of The Faceless on Mischief. /salute

[@andrewgrace7701]

Your right about Pantheon, the real point is they have 2k average players, decently popular games run around 200k, the don't cry about kill stealers is fine and right, its just about 1% of people like it or are prepared to tolerate it, hence why this game is running at 1% users playing of a half decent game and is DOA before its arrival.

[@FacelessZaide]

@@andrewgrace7701 Shit take

[@andrewgrace7701]

true take backed by stats, unfortunate you don't like the take, doesn't make it wrong :)

[@FacelessZaide]

@ I don’t think Pantheon has ever aimed for 200k concurrent even from its earliest days. It’s a niche game for a small audience.

[@landil9034]

Here's to 50 more! Edit: Do you know who were some of the main contenders for stuff like name reservation? They also seem like people that can't deal with a lot of the stuff you were talking about. <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="890">14:50</a> - <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="908">15:08</a>. Very unsatisfactory people.

[@dmitryw.2209]

"little Jimmy" LOL

[@FreddiesRPGVault]

I heard little jimmy and immediately thought *r-truth has entered the chat *

[@FirstNameLastName-okayyoutube]

No idea what a toxic causal is as defined here... but i may be that seeing i felt the need to say this..

[@FirstNameLastName-okayyoutube]

Good news I'm not a toxic casual! Just retarded..

[@FacelessZaide]

Na a toxic casual would come post an angry comment about how they’re not toxic. See PappaSalts comment somewhere below for example.

[@FreddiesRPGVault]

Good listen. I wanted to try Panth but I still think I am going to wait a bit. When I do though, knowing its an EQ-like, I fully expect to see the same behaviors that I see on EQ. Its just the way that games like this end up. You love it or you don't. Still enjoying Teek a little too much to venture out yet --- Stompzy

[@Catdaddyjones]

Looking forward to hear about Faceless an the mechanics. I made my Guild on Mischief. Fight Master. It was such a learning curve. I was out classed, but i had a lot of fun. My toon was "Belowzero" monk. Knock off subzero lol

[@GC_Rallo]

Shit take right off the bat. The OP's position isn't that of a "toxic casual", it's a dude with NO recourse, he can't PvP the guy that KS'd, so that "Real world" argument is just bad logic, if it was "real world rules" then the KSer wouldn't have an invisible forcefield around him making him immune to consequences. "it's early access get over it" argument is also short-sighted and dumb, if VR can't support a CSR/GM team then *now is the time* to come up with ways to solve the problem through game mechanics (like mob-tagging instead of dps-race for non-raid targets) otherwise they're just increasing the chances of the game dying. I doubt VR wants to be Daybreak, I doubt they want their game to be an EQ TLP. TLPs only work because people love to revisit a great game that during its heyday had a robust CSR/GM team that would absolutely handle disputes over things like this, EQ CSR guys from those days all have some crazy stories over incredibly strange, petty disputes they had to settle. If Pantheon just tries to emulate current EQ TLPs it will fail, it doesn't yet have the hooks EQ has so people's tolerance for fuckery is much lower. If you want "wild west hardcore crymoar", play on PvP servers with the real steppas, we always find a way to work it out amongst ourselves. advocating for Pantheon to take on the WORST aspects of EQ TLPs because that will tank the game for everyone who isn't a content creator that is insulated from the consequences of the shitty positions you're espousing.

[@FacelessZaide]

Mob tagging is far more easy to grief. You will not beat a scripted engage on a mob. You can win a dps race. The rules that exist in Pantheon exist in EQ and have for the last 10 years. They work. PvP is obviously the best version of this since it allows you to fight people for things in the most literal sense. The people who are whining about KSing are the ones least likely to go PvP though. Also, I’m not advocating for them to take any position, I’m talking about what the current position actually is.

[@ravanta]

Before I even finished reading your first sentence I knew you were going to mention PVP

[@donteatpaint]

LOL @ PVP. P99 Red was lucky to have two-digit players on at any given time.

[@Motorzerker]

@@FacelessZaide I played on Oakwynd. FTE was far better than people said it was and eliminated a huge amount of the fighting around spawns that you normally see.

[@FacelessZaide]

@ yeah that’s the thing, I don’t normally see much fighting for spawns at all. I’m not confident FTE resolves much. How was it better than people said it was? Why was it not used in subsequent servers if it was effective?

[@FraterOculus]

Okay, so by that logic, we should have PvP

[@donteatpaint]

PVP is dead. Just look at P99 Red.

[@FraterOculus]

@donteatpaint yeah but if you're going to have it so people can DPS race you after you've been camping something ten hours, then you might as well have PvP also. Basically in fact, this IS just a modified but lame version of PvP.

[@FacelessZaide]

@@FraterOculus I think PvP is great but saying that because you can compete in any form you should be able to kill eachother is a strange view in my opinion.

[@FraterOculus]

@FacelessZaide Is it strange though? If you're able to compete by taking 10 hours away from a person via a skillless DPS race, why say that it's going way too far to say that the other person should be able to fight back in a way that actually uses skill and that will take maybe five to ten minutes from the other person? You're saying its so extreme to have this player have a five or ten minute reset time caused by another player, but that its totally fine to have 10 or 20 hours wasted in this other fashion, simply because it involves the indirect agency of a player rather than the direct agency of player. Where's the argument?

[@FacelessZaide]

@@FraterOculus when did I say it was extreme?

[@ilrichard]

This video is just you pointing to a player who is saying that another player made a dick move and that made them enjoy the game less and not want to play. Then you and come in and make 100 excuses to justify people making dick moves, while acknowledge that people shouldn't in general go out of their way to make dick moves. Fair enough though, as you are entitled to your opinions. But to claim a player deliberately taking a camp from another player doesn't suggest ill intent is just silly. What other examples of people cutting lines or people outright stealing from others doesn't suggest ill intent? If some can do something, that means they cant have ill intent? You seem to be pro anarchy in these types of game because you like the idea of all this stuff being possible, but I'm not sure why that means others can't complain about negative interactions. Just because you like the idea that these types of interactions can occur, doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect others to like them as well. What is the issue if this "casual" complains, or quits the game. Shouldn't that interaction be just as free to occur as the action that preceded it? Why defend the first interaction so hard and then attack how someone responds to it.

[@FacelessZaide]

@@ilrichard it’s just two people competing in a video game. It’s more like knocking someone off the stage in smash bros than cutting in line at the grocery store. This shit isn’t real. No one is hurting you. I am pro players having the option. I think it’s more meaningful when people respect your camp even when they don’t have to.

[@donteatpaint]

@ilrichard No dick moves at all. It's literally the rules of the game -- there are no "camps". Imposing what you wish on the game while ignoring the reality of the game is just willful delusion.

[@roemer024]

Love the vids - though, I do think sharing frustration from another player's action is a part of the MMORPG experience haha. If some bunghole is going to try to ruin my day, it's worth a chirp or two

[@ThunderDanDan]

I think a lot of people who played under the everquest pnp were ignorant of just what was involved and the potential for it to be abused. People sitting at camps and NEVER leaving; they'd rotate in guildmates so that it's always (I mean 24/7) camped. Lists with prima donna keepers and good luck circumventing it. Everything people hated about open world raiding like poopsocking was just a billion times worse. The ONLY reason the pnp even "worked" back in the day was that people just didn't know any better. The vast majority of players didn't even go near top camps, didn't even know what they were, and didn't even have a max level character anyway. MMOs don't have that kind of innocence anymore, and the internet is far too organized anyway. If there is a BIS item, it will have people camp it, and if you allow a structured policy about that camp to sit in place, people will use the rules to win at all costs, and it can be even harder or with even less recourse to get access. My experience playing too much eq was that the pnp's removal was a breath of fresh air, and more than 9 times out of 10 my interactions are friendly despite its being gone, and most people are decent to each other. What's more, that rare time when people are not nice... the ability to deal with it without legalese nonsense is preferable. Or I can just go somewhere else. At least I have options. Under the pnp, there was no recourse, and the group content was a toxic monopolized mess. Good riddance. Hopefully the pantheon dudes leave that kind of pnp out too.

[@tylerlogan6289]

You shouldn't feel great that the majority of the player base realizes that pnp is totally alive for the most part until you see someone with "Faceless" as their guild tag. Was that way on mischief and certainly is that way on Teek.

[@FacelessZaide]

@@tylerlogan6289 I think you are projecting your opinion onto a lot of folks who don’t agree with you. We get more apps than any other guild both pre launch and throughout the life of a server. People are applying to us more than anyone else for a reason.

[@donteatpaint]

@tylerlogan6289 Way to lump hundreds of people into your limited world view. Try some critical thinking skills.

[@tylerlogan6289]

I also disagree. while your guild and a few others don't care about respecting camps and waiting your turn... Oh mischief and on teek I've experienced many times where as long as someone from your guild isn't involved people will wait their turn and actually respect the good old "camp rules".

[@FacelessZaide]

@@tylerlogan6289 no one suggested people don’t respect camp rules. The point of that conversation is that it’s just an etiquette thing with no enforced backing. Of course most people don’t dps race other players for camps. Most people avoid confrontation. You are debating a strawman here.

[@donteatpaint]

@tylerlogan6289 Hate comes from beneath.

[@kyleNoxiousEQbarto]

Pantheon is not good. Its not even close to be finished, and I am not just being a hater, look at it more objectively, not through the lens of "something new" or something that is very close to everquest (since I assume 90% of us watching here are everquest lovers)

[@FacelessZaide]

What do you dislike about it?

[@tylerlogan6289]

Ya the more I listen to these the more I realize we need to let this game die asap. Stop all support immediately and force a eq3 or something similar.

[@FacelessZaide]

@@tylerlogan6289 Sometimes I feel the same.

[@donteatpaint]

@tylerlogan6289 It's a myopic viewpoint thinking that EQ3 will "save" the game. EQ2 did that, right? /s

[@Ashentz]

Pretty bad take on the PnP. You're normalizing Daybreak just having shitty management of a shitty old dead game and saying that's normal now. We can expect better.

[@FacelessZaide]

@@Ashentz expecting better is the path to disappointment

[@donteatpaint]

You clearly don't understand business. PNP costs do not outweigh the benefit they provide. If you want PNP, then there's P99 with their huge volunteer staff.

[@Ashentz]

@donteatpaint uh yeah, I obviously do play on p99 because retail is idiotic dps races

[@donteatpaint]

@@Ashentz You play P99 but call EQ a shitty old dead game. The disconnect fom reality is real.

[@RE-sc9bz]

Nonstop scripted dps races between nothing but bots incoming! Any player can buy a bot or learn programming, so if youre mad enough, just do that lol.

[@TBKTheamazing]

I love the peak casual guild propaganda lol!

[@kearseymorton2078]

that was my first time listening to you and it will be my last time as well. Your argument is: "people are jerks are the real world, so it is ok for them to be jerks in a virtual world", really? that tells me that you are probably a jerk in the real world, good day to you, sir, hope i never to listen to your bs again

[@FacelessZaide]

Bye

[@Pappasalt]

First off, thank you for stating Faceless is hardcore, on both servers I've been on I've yet to hear that. With that being said I agree with you that the time investment is a lot lower then expected and casual/hardcore could mean different things ( at this point for me I feel it means the effort put in along with the drive...ie testing raids on test etc) but on selo along with mischief I've had to hear that Faceless is just as casual as anyone else...for me and my opinion on those words that is not been the case. Want to preface that, and I've stated this many times directly to leadership of Faceless, I am in no way trying to race your guild, be better than your guild, or to get some type of notoriety against your guild in terms of performance...Faceless is the best in terms of getting things done on TLPs by a large margin normally. My comparisons that I use against time input is simply a morale boost to my casual guild in comparison of guilds who are considered to be more hardcore, showing to my members that we are still doing well. Not all EQ players or any gamer for that matter play at an optimal level, we don't kick/sit people for messing up or not pressing certain buttons. You stated that "camp stealing doesn't exist because it's just how the game is played..facts" well time input is a fact regardless that you did it first or not. I don't contend that people got it first and I'm not trying to circumnavigate that, for me time input is more important but I merely use it as a morale boosting tool to compare to "top" guilds to see how well we're doing. Now that the friendly discussion is out of the way, you sir are very blind to your own guilds actions lol. You state that kill stealing/camps/etc are not part of the game, stating you do not do these things but then your guild members do then you pikachu face that people don't like your guild or the casuals are "toxic." Your guild sets the standard when they are on a tlp, your members of those guilds set a standard of toxicity and normally it's met in kind. All the while at the same time you showcase this by calling casuals "toxic" yet at the same time start calling other guilds shit that aren't on your level of efficiency. Think you need to look inward a bit.

[@FacelessZaide]

I ain’t reading all that. I’m happy for you tho, or sorry that happened to you.

[@Pappasalt]

@@FacelessZaide Can't imagine why people are "toxic" to you and your guild /eyeroll. But hey I'll come back and watch the next video on how to be an efficient guild leader lmfao.

[@frankthebank22]

Faceless stating its hardcore has always been dependent on who you are asking and what they're definition of hardcore is. I don't think it matters to the discussion, especially because your interaction with us on selo was THE most hardcore server, so really any guild on that server could be deemed hardcore. You are such a big whiny baby. You and your idiot brigade like scar STILL parrot factually incorrect things, because in your mind, there was no other explanation. Even your perspective is warped. Do you think Faceless members play at an optimal level? Faceless has some of the largest contingency is idiots in the entire game. The entire goal was sometimes develop a strategy in which the few could carry the many. Not kicking people is a fine gesture, unless 1 person is consistently wasting 53 ppl's time, then you are being a shit leader by being disrespectful of your guild's time. The VAST majority of faceless don't steal camps, no matter the server, because the vast majority of faceless are just nameless grunts who may or may not show up to raids to collect their dkp while drooling on t heir keyboard. Your assumption that faceless is toxic is in itself toxic behavior. Also, your insistence to lump all faceless entities together is hilarious. Do you know how different Selo Faceless was compared to Mischief Faceless? There is almost zero overlap in leadership. Not only that, we tried on selo for the better part of 2 years to help you, eventually stopping because you just spent every stream at some point bitching about us doing some (incorrectly) imagined slight. TL;DR - Stop acting like a giant idiot child, grow up, admit to yourself you were wrong (you dont have to tell anyone else) and move on. It's pathetic.

[@zohawn4398]

just train people until they go away

[@DraekosTV]

False. You're completely wrong and here's why: is how most of these people sound 😂

[@FacelessZaide]

@@DraekosTV Toxic Casuals missing the point and jumping right in lmaoo

[@charlesshook5834]

sorry pantheon was a bait and switch they had great graphics then after they got the money from backers they shit the graphics it sad i went back to EQ much better this game will never come out scam all the way

[@FacelessZaide]

@@charlesshook5834 it’s out, thousands of people are playing it. Who even cares about graphics? Are you 12?

[@donteatpaint]

A game can be successful if it's got great gameplay and shitty graphics. The reverse is not true.

[@bad_manbot]

@@donteatpaint what if it has neither? Cuz uhhh...