Dreams Are Messages From The Deep | Dune: Part One Analysis | State of the Arc Podcast

Today, we'll be analyzing Dune: Part One, the 2021 film adaptation of Frank Herbert's classic 1965 novel. Directed by Denis Villeneuve, renowned director of Blade Runner 2049, Arrival, and Sicario, this movie tells roughly the first half of the story. It is filmed to the brim with great filmmaking to break down and is without question one of our favorite films of the last five years.
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[@rainmaker709]

I was a friend of Jamis. Jamis taught me that a price must always be paid for power. Jamis taught me that I cannot avoid doing what must be done. Jamis taught me that the more that I try to avoid the doing, the higher the price paid for the doing.

[@dennisf.5086]

The comment about the palm trees stood out to me. ~10 years ago I was in Lima, Peru which is a very dry environment. They would use trucks to spray water on city parks which had neatly trimmed and lush grass that was totally out of place. Meanwhile, they had aquifer and mountain reservoir problems for other parts of the country. "We could have watered 100 people with this," can still apply to today.

[@vic101roman]

This film is my favorite film ever. I went into Dune part one with nearly zero knowledge of Dune. I had somehow avoided it even though all my friends love the book. All I knew is that there were sand, worms, and Star Wars was influenced by it. And that it was supposed to be an amazing book... Denis Villeneuve is one of my favorite directors and blew me away with Blade Runner 2049. Then Dune Part One had me leaning forward with my head tilted the entire time. The way they build the world, the cultures, the characters, was beyond fascinating. Then the cinematography was just absolutely beautiful. Every shot hits this immense feeling of otherworldliness and unbearably large scale. Then the soundtrack and audio design just makes you feel everything. I remember distinctly feeling the sound of the sand in the theatre. It's so visceral, so captivating, so good. Villeneuve is a master at sci fi and beyond. We literally ordered the first three books before we got back to the car when leaving the theatre. Of course the books did not disappoint at all

[@WalterGirao]

I on the other hand think yueh was done WAY better in the book. One of my favorite moments from that book is his tense chess like dialogue with Jessica when he can't let her realize he is about to betray them. That tension was totally lost by trying to portray him as the usual "surprise traitor".

[@restlessoblivion]

I love that this is as much a philosophy channel as it is a media analysis channel. Great discussion. I'm almost done and haven't heard you bring this up, so I wanted to mention that there's also a clear analogy being drawn between Spice and our world's oil, and the exploitation of poor Middle Eastern countries as a result. While oil was discovered and refined in America and other places prior to the 1950s, those reserves are quite small compared to the vast oil fields discovered in the middle east in the early 50s. The usual corpos suspects in that industry swooped in and started their exploitation project. After about 20 years of that, the rulers of those countries were rich from oil $$ and tired of being exploited, so they banded together and created OPEC in the late 60s/early 70s in an attempt to regain some power and influence from the Shells of the world. So that's one of the contexts/real world parallels that Herbert was drawing on when creating this world.

[@TheRetroBrian]

First LotR and now Dune. Thank you for covering some of my favorite works of art/stories ever. The books first, but the movies are great as well.

[@GMrDrew]

Hey I thought Jessica made Paul because of her love for Leto. She was ordered to make a daughter for the Sisterhood. But Leto wanted a son - a male heir. She chose her love for Leto over her devotion to the sisterhood. It wasnt until Paul grew up and started exhibiting sisterhood powers that she started considering him the QH. And I think it's only a coincidence that Paul's life was so close to the Sisterhood plan to produce the QH. Paul was supposed to be a girl and have a baby with Fayde and their girl baby was supposed to be the QH. He was the wrong gender one generation away from the plan. And I'm not sure Jessica knew the sisterhood was that close to producing their ideal QH. Paul was a freak accident and set off the DUNE universe events. If only Jessica had twins - a Luke and Leia. She could have made everyone happy.

[@jimanyon8143]

In the books Jessica gets Paul, because she loves Leto, who wants a son for political reasons, namely the Emperor having only daugthers. The film is silent on this matter, but given Jessicas wastly different characterisation I would not put it past her to want to be the mother of the QH. The QH is a male (super) Bene Gesserit. Thats the whole point. In my interpretation, because the BG see themselves superiour to Men, they will not accept the guidance of a male ancestor and therefore lock themselves out of the male genetic memory. In the books Jessica fully knows the sisterhood is 1 step away from the QH. They litteraly tell her how angry they are for knowingly messing up their plan so close to completion. Jessica had plenty of time to also get a daugther...

[@rainmaker709]

You are correct in that she did it out of love with 0 consideration of the QH. His training however started as a babe. She knew that he would need to defend himself and wanted to make sure that he could even against the Sisterhood if needed. Leto also had him raised to be a Mentat as he believed that a Mentat Duke would be a force to be reckoned with.

[@NameNotAChannel]

I'm glad someone else pointed this out, because I paused the video right there, and was about to comment, myself :)

[@Rithysak101]

The movie feels so unique when you compare it to some of movies released in the last few years by giant Hollywood studios.

[@rpdt96]

WOW. The drums are not playing in a steady rhythm; I never made that connection. This analysis is amazing. You’ve helped me keep the conviction that yes, this is a genre film of the highest caliber, THIS is what a high budget Hollywood production can be.

[@danimal519]

Most people say the books get worse and worse after the first, but I think If one can really appreciate the mysticism of Dune, they just get better and better. In high school i thought Dune Messiah was a bore, then just re-reading it at 40 years old I was astounded. Children, God Emperor.... it's just, incredible.

[@johannystrom-persson2966]

Absolutely. I revised my opinions in the same way as I got older.

[@JohnChronakis]

I find it curious that they didn't also give the 80's film a try, as a parallel; it's made by David Lynch after all. On the subject of David Lynch, please do a Twin Peaks analysis (not for the faint of heart...)

[@jackbyrne5214]

Love the water gag at the start 🤣🤣

[@Broku17]

I somewhat disagree with the statement at 23:55, where Mike mentions that the main theme of Dune is that manipulation of people through legends and religion is impossible and that you cannot control people. While the Bene Gesserit failed to create a Kwisatch Haderach they can control, Paul and Jessica successfully take advantage of the Bene Gesserits legends of the Lisan al Gaib and the Mahdi to attain control over the Fremen. Although by the end of the book Paul is unable to hold back the Fremen as they go on their jihad to conquer the other planets, I don't think the main point of Dune was to show us how no one can control the religious fervour of militant fanatics. Frank Herbert's main intention was to show the dangers of following charismatic leaders, and that "charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: May be dangerous to your health". Throughout Dune, we see the Paul fits in with the image of "the Chosen One", however we find out it's all fake. His genetic makeup was calculated through generational crossbreeding between royal houses, the legends of the Lisan al Gaib were planted by the Bene Gesserit as part of their Missionara Protectiva, essentially legends that were designed for BGs to utilise for their own benefit. Jessica used these legends into making the Fremen into believing that her and Paul were the chosen ones, and this allowed them to manipulate the Fremen into serving them. We see them take advantage of the Fremen for their own interests, they have them fight their battles and wars for the ascension of the Atreides house. And I believe that's what Herbert wanted to warn us about, the aura and otherworldly nature some leaders have are not always geniune, that we should not just blindly trust them. I think what's interesting is that in the fourth book we see the God Emperor rule over the known universe and successfully opresses the inhabitants for many, many years. I don't think Frank Herbert wanted to show us how you can never have total control forever, I mean nothing lasts forever, I think his intention was to warn us that we should never let tyrants like the God Emperor come to power.

[@Broku17]

I don't think Mike is fully wrong here, he is right to some extent, but I wanted to highlight another point that wasn't really brought up in the discussion.

[@CielBlanche]

Yes, I think what he said is basically the complete opposite of Dune's thesis. The political interests of a powerful entity, the Bene Gesserit, were facilitated via weaponized religious propaganda deliberately spread amongst a less powerful group of people, in order to get that population of people to perform in a manner aligned with the interests of the powerful group. That's religious sociology throughout history in a nutshell. Any time a particular doctrine is telling a population that the "others" are ungodly, impure, or unclean, who must be hated, who must be killed, whose lands and resources must be taken for the cause of good, it's purely a means of getting people to serve power, be it a king, an emperor, a prophet, the broad interests of capital, or any other form of demagogue. The Bene Gesserit are successful in getting the Fremen to do what they want them to do -- disrupt and upend the established system of House powers. You can get people to do whatever you want, particularly if they are immiserated, brutalized, and desperate. Religion is just a convenient facilitator. People like Dawkins, ironically, behave in the manner of the demagogue, facilitating their own interests by telling us to believe that it is the religion itself that is at fault. If their critique was at least consistent, all religions would be equally criticized as a facilitator for powerful interests, not individually appraised for varying levels of imagined latent evil. And any serious analysis would point to societies which have demonstrated both liberal and dogmatic expressions of the same broad religion depending on varying political, material, social, and historical conditions. But of course, all of that is completely and deliberately ignored. Dune correctly tells us to look to power when assigning blame. Sociology is the biggest predictor of mass human behavior, and sociology contains many factors, including religion, all of which can be manipulated most easily by the powerful.

[@travelsizedlions]

"Charismatic Leaders should come with a warning label on their foreheads" Have you by any chance read the Stormlight Archives?

[@Broku17]

@travelsizedlions No I haven't, this is my first time hearing about it.

[@travelsizedlions]

​​@@Broku17 It's an epic fantasy series that's ongoing and the next book is about to be released next month. The main character (or one of them, I should say) is a leader in an army who was betrayed and sold into slavery. He literally has a logogram branded on his forehead which means "dangerous." It's like if you had to live your life with a big ol' "⚠️" slapped on your forehead. 🤣 It's a fantastic series, in all seriousness. If you're a fan of Lord of the Rings and/or George R.R Martin's work, you'd love it. It's all about the difficulties of promising and living up to ideals, but the power they bring you in return.

[@redzero1649]

Dune is my favorite book of all time. So excited for this

[@edge1710]

Not until the God Emperor of Dune (book 4) do you realize how very wrong their plans turned out for the Bene Gesserit.

[@edwardnowakowski5990]

Or how right they turned out, SOMEONE was going to need to follow the golden path for humanity to survive

[@the_Analogist4011]

I've tried to explain to people that religion is about changing yourself in conformity with some higher standards or principles that themselves do not change. The rationale of a truly higher order would thus be something for everyone else to submit to. It is a curious notion in the book since it was merely a product of engineering. If your creation "gets away from you", that itself is the golden path

[@RetroFrito]

These movies are such audible masterpieces you MUST watch them with a great sound system. Surround speakers, subwoofer, it's all necessary.

[@Scimarad]

It was similar with Blade Runner 2049. That was such an experience in the Cinema.

[@claudemartin7785]

Yes. Dont watch this on a phone or laptop.

[@patrickweller5254]

Just a correction on the Butlerian Jihad (Herbert's son Brian tried retconning this) but the original idea wasn't necessarily literal AI but just computers and a disagreement over the reliance on technology. Not necessarily a Terminator-esque scenario.

[@SaberRexZealot]

Seeing you guys cover a Denis Villeneuve film again is wild but pleasant. The books are also excellent if emphatically weird.

[@killy9999]

Thank you for doing Dune analysis. It is my favourite book, one that has been with me for the past 25 years and that has defined my life. As such, I feel I must comment on a couple of things. Let's start with the Lynch movie. I don't think it is "so bad it's good" kind of film. It is a bad film that does certain things exceptionally well. Firstly, the acting is phenomenal and some casting choices I find a lot better than in Villeneuve film. Patrick Stewart's portrayal of Gurney Halleck is more faithful to the book, embodying a wise bard-warrior, as opposed to Josh Brolin's version, who's essentially just a warrior. Kenneth McMillan as Baron Harkonnen is fantastic, with his ability to go all red-faced when going into a rage. Piter de Vries, Jessica, Paul, Gaius Helen Mohiam, Emperor Shaddam IV, Yueh, Kynes - all great casting choices by Lynch (and Jane Jenkins). And then there are the costumes and sets, which are on par with Villeneuve's movie. Stillsuits are a lot more convincing in Lynch's movie. I've been very puzzled about all the belts and buckles on the stillsuits in new movie - they just seems so impractical. Also, did you know that Sardaukar uniform's in Lynch's movie were made of body bags? I mean, used body bags. Seriously. Anyway, despite being a flop, Lynch's movie was influential. It defined the visuals of the Dune universe for the next two decades, inspiring the looks of Dune games from the 90s (Dune, Dune II, Dune 2000). Also, one of the most famous quotes associated with Dune - "The spice must flow" - does not appear anywhere in the novels. It is from Lynch's movie. I've recently read a comment on Lynch's Dune which says: "Love it for what it is, don't hate it for what it isn't", and I think that's a good way of approaching that movie. Next, a minor lore nitpick about the need for spice for interstellar travel. Spice is not needed to fold space - that's done by the Holtzman drive, whatever that is. But without spice it's not really possible to tell where the travel is going to end exactly - perhaps the ship will materialize inside a star? And so the Guild Navigators use the spice to see the future and choose the one where the ship makes it safely to destination. I am not sure what to think of you interpretation of Missionaria Protectiva, i.e. Bene Gesserit's meddling with Fremen religion. Reading the books, I've never seen it as something that has any sort of long-term purpose. It was more like planting some superstitions and false prophecies, that a Bene Gesserit sister could use if she ever finds herself in trouble. See Appendix III in Dune, bullet 4, second paragraph. In the books the Fremen religion does not seem to originate from Bene Gesserit in any significant way. Sure, Paul and Jessica have made an extreme use of these planted superstitions, but I don't think that was the original intention when they were first planted. Lastly, the analogy between the sandworms and dragons is an accurate one, because like the archetypal dragon in Beowulf, the sandworms also avariciously guard a treasure - spice.

[@tehdii]

Edit for both podcasters, go read the afterword, a letter from Frank to his wife that did pass. Its warm and thoughtfulness is like Dune condensed in a thank you letter to beloved person. Yesterday I have finnished all 6 Dunes by Frank. I have read first Dune once a decade, but now I decided it is time to read all. I never knew you would be doing this ;) Now I am reading Dzihad, and I plan to read all Dunes by his son. It is a weird feeling to read in 2024 a novel about the war agains AI ;) Peple say, the other Dunes are not so good, maybe the heart is in a different place but they are still fun. Original Dune 1-6 will always be great, too long in places but great ;) For the last 12 months I have been reading SF, I have discovered Peter Watts. Check his Blindsight, Echopraxia, Island, Frame Revolution. Month ago I finally read Gene Wolfe The book of the new sun. It blew me away. It is Soul Reaver, Vagrant, Nier, 13 Sentinels level. All SF writers tell us he is the best writer not only in SF. I felt cleaned, refreshed after reading it. It has this redemptive(?) quality, it can change your mind, I do not know how to describe it. I refused to read it in my 20' and 30' but this time the book went on my top 2 in an instant. It is a leao of fait, no one can be told what The book of the new sun is, you need to see it for yourself :) One thing do not focus on the overtly religious methafors. Although Gene was religious, the book is so much more than flat religiosity that I am sick of frankly. Spirituality is fine but not religiosity :) p.s I do not like single film by Vil :( Dune is OK++ for me. It lacks for me Vagrant, Soul Reaver, Blade Runner gravitos, it tells story but not anchor it in soul. No one will be using movie Dune in culture, visual while superb do not have the impact on culture. Image of a Jedi will be immortal, images of Vil Dunes are servisable but not Benhur, Gladiator, Blade Runner heavy :( Books will be immortal, ideas in them are fresh-immortal.

[@Hess512]

It actually is their religion. They are Zensunni a fusion of zen Buddhists and Sunni Islam. The Lisan al' Gaib is the only part that was seeded by the benni gesserit. The movie in my opinion does too much to pass blame away from the Fremen. They are literally hungry for revenge on the rest of the galaxy and they use Paul as much as he uses them. Which is why he loses control of the Jihad once it begins.

[@narlzac85]

I've been reading Dune books for over 20 years. It's my all-time favorite series. Most analysis of Dune is from other Dune nerds, but this was very interesting for having a different perspective. I hope you find the time to get through the first 4 books.

[@danielalonso7478]

In terms of criticism towards Hans Zimmer, for me I often find his scores heavy handed and/or overbearing in a lot of cases. I don't have the musical knowledge to really delve into why I feel this way and it's not as though I think he's untalented, but that I feel he doesn't show enough restraint in his compositions. I do, however, feel the music he composes for animated films is more well balanced than his live-action tracks.

[@nzwj]

Agree 100%, although I do actually quite like his Dune scores. It feels like he found a creative spark that seems to be missing from a lot of his scores of the last 20 years.

[@danielalonso7478]

@nzwj Yeah, there are parts of his Dune score I revisit, especially his "Sketchbook" album for Part One to check out his unused ideas. An aside, though, I often wonder what a Dune score composed by Jóhann Jóhannsson, Denis Villenueve's previous composer, would've sounded like as I felt his music perfectly complimented and elevated the visuals of his movies. It's a shame he passed away a few years ago.

[@NameNotAChannel]

I found the Dune soundtrack to be obnoxious, loud, grating and overbearing. Additionally, whoever did the sound mixing made it incredibly hard to hear some lines of dialog drowned out by the music. The movie would have been better without the music, at least in my opinion.

[@Alan_Chapman]

This movie is one of the few movies that had images that almost perfectly represented my vision of while reading the book. The one difference I can think of was when Paul and his mother escaped the storm in the ‘Thopter that they eventually crash land. I pictured that entire sequence happening at night for some reason when I first read it.

[@Omnicloudx13]

I really hope you cover Dune Part two, this was a fantastic analysis and covered things from the books which gave the movie far greater context that I did not know about.

[@zohebanjum]

Loving this analysis so much! The theme of the fremen being constantly manipulated by outside forces is such a pervasive one, and there's parallels in the worms themselves. Wasn't arrakis a green world before the worms buried the water deep in the earth? Despite that, the fremen have this incredible power to make the lies they were told true in some way. The destroyers of their world become the makers, the planetologist narrowly avoids death by fremen and they make his plan eventually succeed, the bene geneserit give them a prophecy of salvation and the fremen make it inevitable. Though Paul manipulates them he feels trapped by their fervor the whole while. They're a powerful, if tragic, example.

[@dbavatar]

1:49:50 The additional dialogue from Jamis is Jamis talking to Paul in alternate futures Paul is seeing, of which there are several.

[@myloxylotoify]

I'm convinced Dune is one of the greatest works of fiction ever written.

[@NameNotAChannel]

25 minutes in, and I'm disagreeing so much... and I don't know if it's just how bad the adaptation was, or.... because I got entirely different takes from what's being presented here. Major spoilers required to make my points (Points herein are in order of when they are brought up in the video, mostly, as I wrote my thoughts as I watched the video.) On a personal level, I disagree with Frank Herbert's philosophy and the themes he has put forth in his books, at least in some respects (particularly religion, though I know why he has his opinions). I agree with a few ideas he has, but for much different reasons, reasons that he would not agree with. However, I like to think I have a strong sense of reading comprehension, so this is what I gathered from my readings of FH's books. (I consider his son's work, and that of KJA, to be works of fan fiction, because they deviate wildly from the source material of the original 6 books.) 1st Point: The theme of Frank Herbert's work was not about how you cannot control everything... I could write essays about what it's about... but in short: beware your blind spots. A number of blind spots were introduced in every area he covered. In opposition to the control theme, the God Emperor effectively controlled the entirety of the imperium during his rule, which by design caused the people to forever have an unquenchable wanderlust to prevent them from allowing all of humanity to come under the rule of a single person, ever again - the first results of which would be seen in the great scattering. The God Emperor also sought to breed into humanity a permanent blind spot against a much greater evil somewhere in the universe that was humanity's greatest future threat, that could also use prescient foresight. Results of that breeding program were people who could not be seen in prescient visions aside from the sediment they stirred up in their movements. The warning about blind spots extended to the most obvious: don't blindly follow a charismatic leader. However, this was extended into the distant past with the Butlerian Jihad and the laws formed from that event. Humans fought other humans, both sides using thinking machines, and they blindly trusted those machines to make decisions for them... don't blindly follow thinking machines. Quote: “Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.” “ ‘Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind,’ ” Paul quoted. “Right out of the Butlerian Jihad and the Orange Catholic Bible,” she said. “But what the O.C. Bible should’ve said is: ‘Thou shalt not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind.’ Have you studied the Mentat in your service?” “I’ve studied with Thufir Hawat.” “The Great Revolt took away a crutch,” she said. “It forced human minds to develop. Schools were started to train human talents.” And even later in the series, they had the creation of No-ships, which were, quite literally, blind spots, hidden from prescient vision. So the theme that permeates the Dune series is: think for yourself. Don't turn your decision making processes over to anyone, or any thing else; this includes charismatic leaders, thinking machines, religions, governments, the crowd of other people, etc. Paul Atreides was set up as the ULTIMATE Blind Spot - the best case scenario to be a leader of humanity. * He and his family were known as benevolent people who wanted the best for their subjects. * He was trained as a Mentat, allowing him to process all the information he gathered and produce the most logical conclusions possible. * He was trained as a Bene Gesserit, allowing him extreme control of his body with their Prana Bindu exercises leading to the fighting style of the Weirding Way, and techniques such as the Voice, granting him the ability to force compliance with his commands. Bene Gesserit perception was also a boon, allowing him to detect discreet motions and changes in people and the environment that gave him insights into a great many things, enhanced by his Mentat training to actually make use of all that data. * Paul also had the prescient foresight of the Guild Navigators, allowing him to actually see the future, and the consequences of his choices. * AND Paul (eventually) had access to the genetic memory of all humanity in his genetic history, like the reverend mothers, but included the male side as well. He was, indeed, much more than the Kwisatz Haderach. To top it all off, this leader was handed a devoted nation of warriors to lead, through their own religion, and some meddling of the Bene Gesserit's Missionara Protectiva (instilling in the Fremen their prophesies about the chosen one and his mother.) And here's the kicker: even a leader with ALL of those characteristics was powerless to lead the people down a good path, because of the bureaucrat filled government that grew up around him, and the religious zealotry of the Fremen that made him into a figurehead... he was powerless, despite being the most powerful ruler humanity had ever known up to that point. Despite his best efforts to blunt the jihad, it would have proceeded against his will, even if he had died before taking the throne. All he could do, was direct it to cause the least death possible, while staying on the Golden Path. It is ultimately foolish to put your blind trust in a human, no matter their best intentions and abilities. Before I end this first point, EVEN PRESCIENCE was warned against as a blind spot. You can't even put your trust in that, in a world where such a thing exists... the pitfall of that Blind Spot is probably the biggest one in the series. (Frank Herbert did believe in "oracular sight" such as claimed to be had by the ancient oracles as something that existed, and he and/or his wife practiced reading Tarot cards.) 2nd point: The Atreides had NOT become weak on their water world with abundance (they did "go soft and lost their edge", but I would place that in a different category). They conducted raids on Harkonnens, rescuing slaves (it was an OLD and on-going feud). The emperor feared the Atreides warriors being on par with his Sardukar. Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck were two of the most renowned warriors in the imperium, both under the Atreides banner. The Atreides were loved among the other houses. Leto could have, in time, swung popular opinion to put him and his house above the Corrino family (who were relatives, technically.) You did point this out, but it confirms that taking down the Atreides had to be a joint effort, due to their power and influence in the imperium. The whole sham of stripping Arrakis from the Harkonnen and giving it to the Atreides was a ploy so the Emperor could assist the Harkonnen to wipe out the emperor's greatest rival. Doing this on Arrakis, and using Sardukar disguised as Harkonnen troops, with nearly all the evidence wiped out by sandstorms and sandworms, and attributed to other extenuating circumstances, allowed this all to be done right under the noses of the other houses. And Leto had a plan, just not enough time to implement it, allying with the Fremen. It could be said that the Atreides were at the height of their power when they were sent to Arrakis. 3rd Point: The Bene Gesserit weren't a religion... they were a school, and their operation was political. To the outside, they were valued as Truth Seers, which was of obvious use to rulers in negotiations with each other and CHOAM. Some of their "Black Ops" operatives planted the Missionaria Protectiva on other worlds, as an escape plan if any of their sisters (called "personnel") got into trouble there. It wasn't the same teaching always for each world... they had several, and the one they used on Arrakis was "particularly" powerful. I forget the exact wording of how it was described, when Jessica came to understand which one they used here. They already had the Zensunni religion. The Mahdi was the Bene Gesserit addition. 4th Point: This may be in addition to, rather than an opposing opinion, but during the Gom Jubar scene, with Jessica in the hallway... she was cradling her hand... because she went through the same test and was recalling the pain she felt back then. I highly disliked that they had Jessica reciting the litany against fear, instead of Paul... that was an Iconic scene for HIM, and they took it from him and gave it to his mother. Also, I intensely disliked how emotional they made Jessica in the movie. It's nearly as bad as the super emotional Aes Sedai in the Wheel of Time series. I think it all comes down to not knowing how to portray the feelings without having the actors show it so intensely, despite knowing full well that a key aspect of these original characters was how well they could hide their emotions on the visual side, while they were contending with these thoughts in their minds. By making them emotional like this, it removes one of the things that makes them so powerful. (Continued in my first reply: points 5-8)

[@NameNotAChannel]

More spoilers and points 5-8 5th Point: The Fremen weren't natives of Arrakis... they were a space faring nomadic people, mostly forced from wherever they settled by others, due to undisclosed reasons, but implied that it was their religious beliefs, as an offshoot and combination of Zen and Sunni teachings (descendants of Zensunni wanderers). They had a saying of never forgetting or forgiving what was done to their ancestors. This is what drove them to their jihad that escaped Arrakis and spread across the imperium. The Fremen weren't horribly oppressed as a whole, on Arrakis. The Harkonnen did hunt the Fremen for sport, and those who chose to live in the northern hemisphere were often slaves... they didn't NEED to live in the northern hemisphere at all.. they CHOSE to do so, and likely so they were in a position to work against the Harkonnen forces on Arrakis. Those living in the southern hemisphere were not even recognized as existing by the Harkonnen, so they couldn't have been "oppressed" by them in any meaningful way (unless the Fremen just really liked living in the northern areas and were forced not to do so, which isn't indicated at all.) Also the Fremen could pilot Thopters and had factories in the south, where they produced Stillsuits and other desert survival technology. They weren't just backward, primitive natives of a desert world. I cannot see the Fremen culture in the same way as you spoke about it in this video. It was utilitarian, it was harsh survival; in many ways, it was disgusting to me, with the viewpoint it caused the people to have when looking at others. I have this same opinion of the Aiel in the Wheel of Time (another desert dwelling people) and the Klingons with their honor. However, I say this also, because I didn't see them being influenced from the outside as much as you tried to say. Their own Zensunni religion was present before the Bene Gesserit implanted the Mahdi sub-plot to allow a Bene Gesserit and her child to find refuge among these people. They have their belief in Shai Halud (I dislike that it's like God and the devil in one) and Kralizec (sp?), like their version of armageddon. Everything in their culture was built around water scarcity, even the extremes when it came to human life and the laws surrounding taking it. They likely already had a version of "paradise" in their Zensunni religion, long before Kines introduced the idea... but Kines offered a path to it, through their own efforts. (and terraforming Arrakis leads to the worst ecological disaster known to that world since the introduction of the worms - which I highly doubt the writers/creators of this movie realize, trying to paint the Fremen efforts in such a good light, pushing modern environmental movements into the story.) 6th Point: I liked Dr. Yueh in the books a LOT more. They cut so much stuff from this whole bit. The plans within plans of the Baron... The baron is so much more cunning in the books... in the movie, he's just an intimidating mob boss... I have a lot to say about all this, but not quite as important. 7th Point: Paul's awakening scene. I think the movie failed hard, but I think it was intentional. You touched on this, but I think it bears repeating: They completely overlooked Paul's Mentat side. What Paul was most upset about, in that scene, wasn't that he had Bene Gesserit powers; it was that he didn't feel anything about his father's death. He noted it as a data point in a Mentat calculation; THAT upset him. This is the scene in which his Mentat powers blend with his Bene Gesserit powers, and he understands the future, formulating a "main line calculation" that isn't just based on statistics, but everything added by the prescience and more. I think the focus in the movie ONLY on the Bene Gesserit, was a MAJOR failing. Part of what makes the Bene Gesserit so powerful is the presence of the other factions... if the other factions don't exist... it changes the whole dynamic of this setting. 8th Point: The sand working like water was intentional by Frank Herbert, as he studied the fluid dynamics of sand... it was just like really slow moving water. This study, like Tolkien's study of language, was a main reason for his writing about this setting.

[@johnmcternan4157]

You'd have a field day with the reimagined Battlestar Galactica (2003-2009) in terms of themes, it's the only thing I can compare to Dune in scope. Gargantuan achievement. Jung everywhere.

[@monto4944]

Hell yeah! Dune was one of the most important books in my life. I'm so excited that you are analysing this adaptation!

[@Scimarad]

I was playing the latest No Man's Sky Cursed expedition whilst watching this and as you were talking about the brackish tasting water from the Still-tent the game decided at that moment to comment creepily out of nowhere "We all drank the water..." 😄😄

[@CielBlanche]

i think dune is only one of many influences on star wars. the french comic valerian, flash gordon, buck rogers, the hidden fortress and other kurosawa samurai movies, the westerns that stole from those samurai movies, king arthur, and so on i wouldn't say it's an adaptation of dune or the same script but renamed. among all those influences i'd say dune is probably one of the least prevalent. the only real similarity is that there's a desert and a 'chosen one', but those are common to many stories, including something like lawrence of arabia. star wars doesn't really have a commentary on religious fervor or a focus on resources sought after by imperialist interests. star wars is a mythological interpretation of the battle against fascism dune is about political interests shaping sociology, and particularly its religious expressions, which is very interesting because there are modern commentators (including one that was mentioned in this video) that are taken seriously for some reason, who like to claim that the relationship is inversed, where particular religions are inherently more nefarious than others and dictate behavior from a vacuum, as if they are monoliths, and as if history, sociology, economics, and politics don't completely determine how behavior attributed to religion manifests, which is so myopic and naive as to be like a child's understanding of the world frank herbert and any serious academic knew that in 1965 and earlier, and i think it's the most valuable lesson dune has to offer, one that is very much needed today, not that the people most in need of it are likely to come to the realization the movie is putting in front of them

[@rdrouynriv]

Yup you are right. Hidden Fortress is the biggest influence on Star Wars. A new hope is almost a 1 for 1 recreation of Kurosawa's flm. The Dune influence is mostly visual (Tatooine vs Arakis, lightsabers vs knives) and some characters have similar arcs and jedi powers are similar to psychic abilities

[@WalterGirao]

1:36:00 - the twist on the "exploited" fremen in the books is that, despite all the manipulations and how "fake" and implanted their beliefs are, through their faith they're the ones who end up seing their prophecies coming to fruition even against the will of those who were "manipulating" them. That whole dynamic is perfectly encapsulated in the first dialogue between jessica and mapes. Jessica thinks she is being very astute and successfully manipulating mapes with all the "right answers" but at the end of the dialogue you see that mapes is the one pitying jessica because she realizes whats in store for her They simplified that dialogue in the movie and it lost its meaning

[@2002sensei]

Just thought, when Paul wakes up from the first dream sweating, it’s because his body is reacting to the perceived heat of Arakis being captured by his suit in those situations.

[@RiverSounding]

I'd love to hear you elaborate on why you feel so strongly about the outside influence/internal cultural influence- you describe an outside influence as "diabolical" and "unnatural", making it sound almost as if it's inherently that way- whereas I would be inclined to think that everything simply depends on the nature of said influence. A corruptive, manipulative system of control/belief has to be at least equally likely to develop/be manufactured by those in power from within a culture as outside of it.

[@kurtmager1626]

Regarding the Butlerian Jihad, the book doesn't really give a lot of detail, but it does give some. The 1984 movie, and the Brian Herbert prequels (Don't bother. They aren't worth it) suggest that there was a machine oppression a lot like the Cylons in Battlestar Galactica. But from the few details given in the original series, that doesn't seem to be what Frank Herbert had in mind. It was actually closer to the Protestant Revolution. People just stopped using AI for sake of morality.

[@NameNotAChannel]

Brian Herbert and KJA's retcon directly contradicts what little we have from the original Dune books: Quote: “Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.” “ ‘Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind,’ ” Paul quoted. “Right out of the Butlerian Jihad and the Orange Catholic Bible,” she said. “But what the O.C. Bible should’ve said is: ‘Thou shalt not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind.’ Have you studied the Mentat in your service?” “I’ve studied with Thufir Hawat.” “The Great Revolt took away a crutch,” she said. “It forced human minds to develop. Schools were started to train human talents.” So, it was people allowing thinking machines to make decisions for them being conquered by other people using machines to enslave them... not an AI uprising against humanity. It was still humans vs humans. This is why I treat anything written by Brian or KJA to be fan fiction, at best, and won't trust a bit of it as canon.

[@tacobales]

I really didn't care for the movie. I actually walked out half way through the movie. I thought the pacing was awful. Starting to reconsider that 😅

[@HRZN_YT]

To the point of thinking about Arrakis as an ocean world, symbolically. Interestingly, I believe in one of the later books they reveal Arrakis was originally an ocean world that was desiccated.

[@etienne00]

Well that was surreal. I had a random impulse to see if Resonant Arc had uploaded anything new in the last few days. Looked it up and saw a 1 minute old video. Freaky 😅

[@NowhereMan789]

Dreams are messages from the deep...

[@totallynotaspy2686]

I drove 2 hours to watch dune 2 on 70mm imax after watching it on release night. I don't think another movie compares as an experience.

[@Mezmero]

I love these movies but I get neck pain from even trying to spell “quii’zaat’tetteraak”.

[@Zoombeanie132]

If they think they got the overall theme of Dune here they're gonna have an aneurysm if they ever decide to read God Emperor lmao.

[@vic101roman]

Oh I'm so here for this series of videos

[@DanielSantosAnalysis]

Okay that's great and all, but why is his name Duncan Idaho?

[@travelsizedlions]

Because he's from California, of course.

[@dmen0563]

I love the books, but I appreciate these movies so much and in a great theater they are a religious experience

[@ShadyLurker16]

Dune takes place actually closer to 30,000 years in our future, It's 10,191AG (afterguild) being 10,191 years after the founding of the Spacing guild just after the end of the Butlerian jihad.

[@travelsizedlions]

Glad to know Idaho still exists that far in the future.

[@NameNotAChannel]

@@travelsizedlions There is a continuation of people having been named after places of the past, later in the series as the planet of Arrakis changes, and the people and places of the original Dune book are gone... they're kept alive in the names of people.

[@xiiir838]

What I love about Dune more than anything is, as Mike discussed in this episode, is the manipulation/influence of cultures by foreign groups. I like it precisely because of reactions like Mike's: people that are overtly disgusted by the outside groups messing with indigenous (often weaker) groups don't seem to realise how it is exactly the same when, for example, Marks's ideas spread throughout the whole world by people that might be indigenous, but keep close contact with marksts from foreign cultures/countries. Everything, from the decIara†ion of human righ†s, to fem¡№¡Sm, medicine, a modern education system, etc, etc, is ALWAYS an outside group influencing the indigenous group. But obviously, these interventions are moral, good and desirable, even though they're still a form of cultural coIonisa†¡O№ that we accept and celebrate

[@johnmcternan4157]

I agree, colonialism didn't change it just became more touchy feely. Bernays has a lot to answer for too.

[@Alan_Chapman]

I flipped back and forth between IMAX and Dolby Cinema for this, and ended up seeing it in Dolby since I had never watched a film in a theater with those standards before.

[@Wes_the_Bes]

Thanks! Great recap and analysis

[@orcbrand]

I saw the HU at the Bowery Ballroom once and it's crazy how far those Mongolians can take the throat singing.

[@johnmcternan4157]

You'd have a field day with the reimagined Battlestar Galactica (2003-2009) in terms of themes, it's the only thing I can compare to Dune in scope. Gargantuan achievement. Jung everywhere.

[@xvct2661]

Oh thank the lord i mean lisan el gaib for this podcast you guys are perfect for this Also for those who don’t speak arabic lisan al gaib means tongue of the stranger which could imply that the fremen should not trust paul but that’s just my speculation

[@ShadyLurker16]

It's similar to an arabic phrase but it's slightly different. In the novel it means "Voice from the Outer World" and it's a name for their prophesized (sort of) messiah.

[@AshenVictor]

@@ShadyLurker16 Nah, he was right. "No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero." One of the themes of Dune is that leaders like Paul becomes will bring a civilisational calamity, and that's what happens to the Fremen, who replace their original ideal of a terraformed Arrakis with Paul's galactic jihad which profits them not at all no matter how fanatically they believe in it, to the point that later on that dream of a new home is even perverted to bring about Leto's Golden Path. The movies will be bringing this all the way to the fore in the third one when they cover Dune Messiah.

[@xvct2661]

@@AshenVictor to add a little context to this dune draws very deeply from islamic theology with paul being a very unsubtle reference to the founder of the islamic religion Mohamed and also hes prophecized successor the mehdi pretty sure someone calls paul that in the movie not sure about the books with both figures being figures that started about as peaceful and then became violent in the name of liberation hope that adds context

[@ShadyLurker16]

@@AshenVictor He was right about what? Did you even read my comment?

[@EvilCronos13]

I listened to the audiobook for the first two dune books. I always found the ideas interesting, but the dry writing half put me to sleep. The old film is campy. I wouldn't call it good, but it's not terrible, more of an example of the time it was made. The new films I found that was I watched, all I was doing was thinking,"yeah and now we're doing this thing I vaguely remembered from the book when I listened to it a few years before. I loved the sound design and the interesting story is there, without all the awkward tangents and other issues I had with the writing. So I enjoyed it. It's not the greatest thing of all time, but it's very well done

[@edwardnowakowski5990]

The 2001 miniseries and its sequel are still my favorites by far, but this version was fantastic, we finally had the tech to get all the visuals perfect. And I don’t know how much of the series you’ve read, but if you dislike Duncan’s name I have some bad news XD Also, as soon as i found out they gender swapped kynes, I immediately told my dad who also read the books (we were at a drive in, so we could talk during the film) that i had a feeling they were going to drop the plot point of Paul inheriting Jamis’ wife after their duel. Having a system where wives are property didn’t exactly gel with a society that looks to a matriarch as their leader

[@AdeptCharon]

46:50 that interpretation of the BG ancestral memories (is pretty common, but) feels slightly inaccurate/flawed to me. I don't think that the BG are "able to access only memories of their female ancestry", they COULD technically access any of them. But they have strongly conditioned themselves to FEAR accessing male ancestral memories, as a precaution/safety mechanism, against "abomination". Think about it; Any BG's female ancestors are basically an long chain of exclusively BG sisters, who are "in" on it and therefore relatively safe to access, while basically all of their male ancestors are a chaotic selection of random dudes with unrelated values and beliefs. Essnetially, the BG are building up a safety system within their ancestral memories over the course of millenia, so that when they get to the Kwisatz Haderach, that person will then combine that with all the other gifts and training, to be able to safely access both, for the BG.

[@AdeptCharon]

This also means that the mechanics of it make sense with the later novels, where a lot of Dune fans instead kind of brush those off as inconsistent and retcons, when they're exactly what the idea of "abomination" was setting up.

[@TheBeird]

It's the successor to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. That will always be my favourite but in terms of scale and theme, it's nipping at its heels. Took me a few watches to fall in love with Part One though. First time I wanted more, even an Extended Version. But on the third watch, it clicked. Probably because I knew by then that Part Two was on the way. But it's only become better now the book is fully adapted. Prisoners is also a great Villeneuve film

[@astrea555]

I was waiting for this!!!

[@danielcaldas3247]

Have you guys ever thought about doing a Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind episode? That would be sick. Jung all over the place duuude

[@SuperHiddenaccount]

Let’s go. I love dune

[@YH-vj2xr]

I wonder how the films would adapt the whole series because dune is more about world building and philosophical, ecological debates rather than storytelling rich with characterization and action.

[@edwardnowakowski5990]

Well we’d get a LOT of Jason Momoa if they did

[@nickyrod22]

Dune is my favorite book of all time. I considered it unadaptable until this movie came out.

[@Swiss816]

God i loved this. Gonna make me read the books again

[@Scimarad]

I am very much in the classic science fiction mindset when it comes to rationalisim versus religion so the idea that we are not going in that direction is quite a depressing concept for me. That said, I absolutely love the Dune adaptations.

[@thiagogirello]

Hey Mike! We’re huge fans of your work and have actually connected before through the comments on your KZbin channel. Here at our game development studio in Brazil, everyone is a big fan of Resonant Arc. We especially loved playing through the Xenogears saga together (er even created t-shirts hahaha)-it was an awesome experience! We’d love to get in touch with you directly. Is the email listed on your KZbin channel the best way to reach you?

[@brianlinden3042]

I'm not sure if this is the correct pronunciation or not, but I've always gotten around the problem of Duncan Idaho's name being stupid by pronouncing it "ee-DAH-ho." If I recall, previous adaptations did the same thing, but it's been a while since I've seen any of 'em.

[@Beardmo]

Well damn, I'm early.

[@MrPejotah]

Duuuuuuuuuuune, let's goooooooo! :D

[@heyimSkyee]

Heck ya!!

[@rdrouynriv]

Denny VIllenueve's Dune is one of the best Sci Fi adaptations of the decade. Looking forward to your review.

[@grahamwade5932]

The other two are arrival and blade runner 😅

[@yuuts2619]

No

[@rdrouynriv]

@@yuuts2619 Yes

[@kickpuncher1892]

Nice

[@daveonezero6258]

It is throat singing.

[@Alex.Holland]

The 2000 era miniseries is still the best adaptation. The part that covers "Dune" is charming, but done on a budget and the weaker part, but the Children of dune miniseries that covers "messiah" and "children" is actually phenomenal.

[@coreyrachar9694]

Dunes are dreams of messages from the deep

[@El-Duderino-His-Dudeness]

Oh man, hopefully you guys have watched them since, but it's worth watching both 80s Dune and SciFi Channel Dune. SciFi Channel Dune and Westwood's Dune 2000s and Emperor Battle for Dune were my intros into this series. I liked Denis' Dune, but he left out so many details. I think he stripped it down too much. But I'm firmly of the belief that each of the three iterations of Dune all did something great. 80s Dune had great ambience, SciFi Channel Dune got the story the closest to the book, Denis' Dune got the scale and the action.

[@deathdoor]

44:40 genius observation. edit: that man notices the most interesting things.

[@EclecticEngineer604]

❤️🙏🏼

[@Galaxy-ds4lw]

Dune is the best sci novel. Bar none.

[@catmadethat]

DON'T WATCH THIS UNLESS YOU WANT FULL STORY SPOILERS! For whatever reason, they felt compelled to spoil parts of the story the movies haven't reached yet.

[@inxine]

oh god that movie. so boring. like literally, i fell asleep in the first 15 mins and woke up when it was over. i gave it a second chance not that long ago and turned it off after 20.

[@travelsizedlions]

What bored you about it specifically?

[@marcelzeferino3761]

Masterpiece book make overated movie.

[@Cruxics]

That's when I unsubscribed your honor.