Dreams & Dreamers Q&A

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[@GeekFurious]

Fact: while I was in Iceland for 5 weeks, I listened to your "Dreams & Dreamers" podcast every single night before going to sleep.

[@HistoryofWesteros]

awww shucks... What kind of dreams did that give you!?

[@Jennifer-di4nl]

Westeros History Dragon dreams of course

[@robbypodobinski824]

Westeros History wet dreams

[@DavidLightbringer]

Nice job guys, I have a feeling we could talk about dreams for like ten podcasts or so. I just wanted to make one comment about the idea of trying to figure out whether a dream is mostly a product of a character's subconscious or if it's more prophetic - either prophetic in the sense of the character themselves having a prophetic dream, or in terms of us readers analyzing the dream 4 symbolic foreshadowing. my opinion is essentially that Martin designs all of his dreams to work as something of both, because he loves to leave ambiguity where it concerns Magic, and also because I think it makes for good writing. All dreams should be explainable to some extent as a product of the character's subconscious. For example, John's dream of wielding a burning red sword and defending the wall - a very important dream loaded with Azor Ahai symbolism. not only does he have the burning red sword, he also kills his love, Ygritte, just as Azor Ahai kills Nissa Nissa with Lightbringer. he's defending the wall alone against the forces of the north with a magic sword forged in dragonfire - and this makes him sound a lot like the last hero with dragonsteel. but we can also explain the dream as a product of Jon's subconscious, because he's just been hearing Melisandre and Stannis talk about Azor Ahai and lightbringer quite a bit. He is the Lord commander of the wall, and he's obviously quite concerned with defending the wall against the forces of the North. He is plagued with guilt over Ygritte's death, as you guys mentioned in your episode. Occasionally, I will see people use the fact that a dream can be explained buy the dreamers subconscious to argue against a more symbolic interpretation or a prophetic quality to the dream. But I don't think they're necessarily in conflict in most cases - I believe Martin writes the dreams to function on both levels. In my opinion, Martin has been giving Jon dreams which very subtly hint at prophetic qualities, or dragon dreams such as Targaryens have. Jon can almost see them and can almost hear their flapping wings when Val talks about dragons in ADWD, and there's that line from A Game of Thrones when Tyrion says to Jon , "you've had the same sort of dreams haven't you?" Tyrion had just confessed to having two types of dreams: dreaming of burning his family in a fire , and dreams of riding dragons. we are supposed to understand that Tyrion is implying that Jon has also dreamed of killing his family, but because of the ambiguous wording, you can almost read it to say that Jon has dreamt of riding dragons too. Tyrion definitely meant the first thing - killing a family that doesn't quite accept you - but I think these kind of things are metaphor clues for the readers to think about Jon and dragon dreams. Point being, George can't give Jon dreams that are too clearly prophetic or dragon oriented, at least not until he's ready to do the reveal. But I think dreaming of wielding a burning red sword it's certainly taken by many as foreshadowing of the future, so we are getting there.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Ah, I see you agree with me - I left the first comment after only the first 15 min or so. Glad to see you discuss Jon's dream a bit more, I agree it's super important and totally loaded with info. As for the gnarled hand, I'm not sure exactly WHO that hand belongs to, but the only clue we have to go on is "gnarled." That is a word usually applied to tree roots and branches, to wood in general. to me, that implies the hand of a greenseer or weirwood presence.

[@HistoryofWesteros]

Yessir my man, we're on the same page on quite a few things for sure. In fact I'm sure I got a few of these ideas from you during our chats without realizing it. Regarding the gnarled hand, as he turns to face it's owner, he wakes up to Mormont's raven, so that could big Bloodraven hint. He's probably the best guess we have, but not with any certainty. For Tyrion, you think maybe GRRM himself hadn't fully decided the question of his parentage, and wrote it in a way that he could go either way when things got farther along?

[@jimmybones4299]

Lucifer means Lightbringer I'm glad to read your interpretation of the gnarled hand. First thing that came to mind for me was Bran's hand as described in Catelyn's chapter when he's in a coma (as a claw?). Gnarled tree root of a Greenseer to Bran's claw hand connects in my mind...

[@MrScottie301]

Lucifer and Azes (is that how you spell your name?) pleas tell me you guys have joint videos coming up?!

[@lincolnnoronha4128]

I agree. People sometimes get too hung up on plot points, and ignore character development and overal poetry (lyricism? is that a word?) of the story. Come on, people! If all you focus on is a bunch of reveals and plot twists and the meaning behind prophecy, go watch a Shyamalan movie or smth. lol.

[@renlysotherlover294]

Dont make the shows shorter I love the long ones and the same goes for the radio westeros crew. The long ones have been excellent on both pages as I feel like you guys cover everything and really get into all the detail. Love both these channels so much!

[@everdawn8212]

Your videos are so well done and very thought provoking. I've watched them all, some of them twice LOL. Thank you for all the hard work you all put into these! The Ghost of High Heart has always been of extreme interest to me. I wish more was known about her.

[@HistoryofWesteros]

thanks for saying so, we'll keep them coming!

[@caitlinbrewer4843]

I personally think that the hand is Bloodraven's, who is also Jon's greatx7 uncle.

[@Seelenverheizer]

The new camera looks even better in this one.

[@sherry-lynnm7613]

Maybe the point of Ygritte telling that he knows nothing at that point is that he thinks he's a bastard but that he really isn't.

[@whereuwannabe7796]

Jon isn't going to be undead. Wights are undead. Jon will be fully alive. Resurrected.

[@joejessup9775]

Jon Snow's dream where he's fighting the reanimated corpses and then a gnarled hand grabs his shoulder and turns him about. The clue is in who woke him up: "a raven pecking at his chest". Bloodraven was observing Jon's dream and woke him up on purpose.

[@DiCleverly]

I think the gnarled hand was meant to be Bloodraven's, singifiying he was sending the dream; isn't the word gnarled used to describe Weirwood roots and limbs throught the book and compared to old man's hands and liimbs? Also, the snow melting in Robb's hair reminds me of the last time Jon saw Robb when they said goodbye at Winterfell. I really liked this segment, but I miss Ash! I know she works a lot, but I just really like the back and forth between the two of you. :)

[@DD-qo1tw]

Regarding Jon and the crypt, he could be meant to discover Lyanna's tomb which also has something of Rhaegar's in it. Or even his body alongside hers

[@coltthomson9126]

great Q&A and subject series as always!

[@childofpersia1213]

Imo, it seems like the crypt dreams are sent by blood raven to try and awaken Jons gift and point him in the right direction. North of the wall, Jons magic is enhanced and he can better control his magical gifts (i.e. warging). So he has the wolf dreams using his natural gift. Just like bran "opened his third eye" when he was unconscious, so will Jon ... So I think we're in for only more wolf dreams and Jon using his own power. No more of bloodravens help, no more "sent" crypt dreams

[@jayisbored]

Damn 3:20 am some times insomnia is a good thing

[@peterfontaine2057]

Rhaegar's harp being down in the crypts is important for Mance Rayder, who needed it to play during the wedding feast. Rhaegar's Valaryian strings hyptnotize the listeners. Just like Orpheus in greek mythology. Who could charm all living things and even stones with his music, his attempt to retrieve his wife, Eurydice, from the underworld, and his death at the hands of those who could not hear his divine music.

[@joejessup9775]

Golden Company Episode, hurry up!

[@jammmorris]

Can't wait to watch this

[@Lily2U1515]

The gnarled arm/hand is most likely Bloodraven

[@HebrewsElevenTwentyFive]

Nice upload guys!!

[@renlysotherlover294]

You guys should redo some of those originals especially the varys one and a few others i know id very much appreciate it.

[@chinaskibloodline]

Jon seeing Grey Wind in the crypts; he's also hearing drums from a feast he thinks is in the Great Hall, but that's surely the drums from the Red Wedding, right?

[@srf222]

Jaemi Zahra-Hall right!

[@BeatrizOliveira-fi9my]

Curiously, there is actually a feast going on in the Great Hall with loud music in another dream: the feast with the dead, in Theon V ACOK

[@chinaskibloodline]

Yep, I always took that to be a premonition, although it could also just be Theon's guilt and/or literary foreshadowing. With Jon's it's happening around the same time so I took it to be kind of like a wolf dream, he's connecting to Grey Wind through Ghost and therefore hearing the drums

[@Hambie76]

Dolorous Jaemi Good point!

[@Karrikln1671]

Perhaps Berric and Stoneheart are warning against passing life from one to another.

[@adgaydou]

I think the gnarled hand is supposed to represent either Bloodraven or Bran...

[@fr44man]

awesome episode

[@bunnie12345]

I don’t know how I missed this but this was so needed today! Thanks n miss u guys! Ps...what ever happened to old nan?

[@bethqmount1160]

Have you guys checked out the order of the green hand here on KZbin yet? Pretty awesome stuff ........

[@srf222]

ElizaBeth Mount yes they are. I love that chanel!

[@jamesgolden4600]

told them same thing!! lol

[@robbypodobinski824]

ElizaBeth Mount best channel in the game

[@adidaskorn12345]

Thanks for the reference, they are great too.

[@oldmoviemusic]

nothing beats history of westeros, but I'll check them out!

[@hambino28]

Hey Aziz, do you think Master Aemon would have lived till Old Town if Sam wouldnt have left him on deck while on route to Bravos??? That's how he caught that chill after all.

[@nononono3421]

Jon's dream where he cuts off Robb's head is to tell Jon to stay at the Wall for the Battle for the Dawn (there is even Darth Vader symbolism with the red blade burning in his fist and black armor). The raven glares at him balefully, in the predawn gloom. Jon won't go south to take Winterfell, he's going to stick to the watch even if he was stabbed by his men, and head to Hardhome to save the wildlings instead. His actual betrayal of his vows will be for Daenerys later on. This is like in the original outline, where Jon refused to help Catelyn and Bran and Arya when they came to the Wall, making him Bran's bitter enemy. He won't go take Winterfell. Jon's fear of the crypt, I believe is nothing to be fearful of; he is foreseeing himself being entombed in the crypts. Just like Lyanna and Brandon, Jon's body will be given its own tomb, out of respect. He just doesn't understand why. When Ned says to Bran that one day he will have to pass a sentence, and take no joy in it, Jon appears on the hill before them. Bran will "sentence" Jon one day, but ultimately give him his place in the crypts. When Jon thinks of giving Ygritte a flower from the glass garden, and the dream is sweet; that was echoed in Daenerys' vision of blue winter rose coming out of a chink in the Wall, filling the air with sweetness. Jon falling in love with Daenerys "cracks the wall", as in it goes against his vows.

[@top300rocksongs90s]

I think Jon's crypt dreams act as a symbolic prophetic foreshadowing of his eventual death. If you recall, when speaking to Sam he also mentions the abandonment of Winterfell which has striking symbolic similarities to it's eventual sacking at the hands of Theon/Ramsay. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones." This happens well in advance of the eventual sacking establishing Jon as a possible prophet. Which of course coincides with his Targaryen heritage. He then goes on to state, about the same prophetic dream, with regard to the crypts "Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don’t want to......I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream.” He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. “That’s when I always wake.”" As stated above, with these dreams possibly being established as prophetic in nature, it appears to me that the alluring down into the crypts, even against his own desire, symbolizes Jon ultimate demise, or rather his per-determined destiny if you will. Finally pay extra attention to the line "I want to scream." This mirrors the condition Jon is in as he is being slabbed by he brothers, "No Blades, he screamed. Put that knife........away he meant to say.....the word turned to a grunt." As well as the line stating "That's when I always wake." A possible symbolic representation of his eventual resurrection. Would love to hear what others think!

[@MrKGDickie]

At 1:00:00, I believe the reference to Robb with his hair wet from snow is a reference to the last time Jon saw him, at Winterfell. He's remembered that detail at least once before. It's a significant, lasting memory of the final time he saw his "half brother."

[@MrKGDickie]

Great video, btw. I don't want you to think I don't appreciate the fantastic work!

[@dr.embersfield1551]

Q&A: Is Weirwood an antipode to dragon glass?

[@robymarz]

Really interesting thoughts on Jon's fate!

[@johnlanouette8611]

Hey Guys! I would love to get involved in some of the art projects you mentioned. I don't know if my sculptures would have any place, but let me know what I should do!

[@jadealexandria1234]

Love your channel

[@HistoryofWesteros]

Thanks!

[@laurahill9643]

So, something I noticed when I was listening to ADWD. When Davos is talking to Lord Manderly, one of his granddaughters (?) seemed to be spouting nonsense, at least that's how here family treated her. But she struck me as a Greenseer, or just a Dreamer. Am I imagining things?

[@puttanesca621]

Maybe the dreamers are the old gods so maybe dreamers and gods being impaled are the same scene viewed from different POVs.

[@rogersampeur7033]

Does Jon sleep anymore cause beric didn't sleep I don't think stoneheart or mountain sleep either?

[@visorah9299]

slightly off-topic, but does anyone know where the shirt aziz is wearing is from? i've been looking for a cool not too obvious asoiaf fanshirt for ages and this one is so neat. i love the podcast, it makes me appreciate the books on a whole new level. easily my favorite youtube content, thanks for all the work you put in!

[@CFord256]

If you did not know D&D have a cameo in the latest episode of Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

[@stanklepoot]

Is it possible that the Crypt dreams represent Jon's Targaryen heritage struggling to make itself known, and the Wolf dreams represent the power of the Children that flows through Stark veins? If so, then the Targaryen powered Crypt dreams could be overwhelmed by the power of the Children north of the Wall where the Children and their creations reside. South of the Wall, the dragon's blood of his Targaryen heritage is strong enough to force itself to the surface. Also, if he's ever to master the Song of Ice and Fire in the real world, must he first learn to bring those disparate parts of himself together in a proper state of balance? edit: That feeling when you think you've asked an interesting question, and then get to the point in the video where it's basically brought up. sigh.

[@SirWigSplitter]

Please tell me, where did you get that sick blackwood t-shirt? I need it

[@HistoryofWesteros]

here you go: www.designbyhumans.com/shop/t-shirt/men/raventree/612992/

[@prof.cecilycogsworth3204]

Where do those fabulous figurines in the intro come from?

[@MrScottie301]

Maybe spoiler for WOW.......One other thing the Dream Jon had fighting the dead he's wearing "Black Ice" could that be the Armor Euron is wearing in the sample chapter? Maybe a prophetic vision that Jon will fight, help fight, kill, or is gifted Euron's armor from someone else (Danny) for the great final battle?

[@Viridyana]

Sorry guys. Was super excited to hear about the new podcast but I cannot seem to find it anywhere. Is it out already?

[@HistoryofWesteros]

right here! fandomedia.reviews/

[@Viridyana]

Westeros History oh, thanks! I didn't realise there was only one m ;)

[@FreestyleFakiiri]

Aziz, LIGHT!

[@remurraymd]

I think Lyanna was seduced by and is buried with Rhaegar's Harp in homage to GRRM Hugo award winner Song For Lya(Lyanna) it would have logically been found by Ned and buried with her. Themes of self-sacrifice for the greater good are common in both stories.

[@GarryHuta]

Awesome content! I was surprised at the whole Jon having the different dreams beyond the wall as opposed to behind it. Can I give a critique? I'd recommend framing the shot of the show a bit closer to your face, as you are the subject, not the surrounding visuals. It is neat to see all the interesting maps around you but they get distracting and draws away from you, the subject, and the story.

[@jamesgolden4600]

guys love your stuff had a thought while watching this if someone was to die by fire but the body not consumed could they still to come back as a wight? I know kinda dumb but popped in my head Have you checked out Order of the Greenhand channel?

[@renzgarcia84]

Jon Snowheart sure sounds like Jon Stark

[@Hambie76]

Ya know, I really wonder how much Bloodraven actually know about the stark kids. Forgive my memory here, but I don't recall him alluding to or specifically referencing them. Also, why not tell Bran about his family if he does know? Again, I might be forgetting something. I.M.O. I think Bran is stronger and Bloodraven was more like all the Children could get. So I believe Bloodraven represents potential where Bran could be potential realized and embodied. I'm referring to this whole Bloodraven Conspiracy. Thanks Aziz. Good work.

[@jennadarksister3680]

Hello guys long time listener first time to comment. I was just wondering if you have watched any videos by Order of the green hand they have some really great theories... The story has changed in my mind since listening to them, like puzzle pieces falling into place. You really should check them out, let us know what you think

[@MrScottie301]

So I know I sound nuts. I have been a R+L=J fan from the first time I read the books but resonantly I have gone back through a 2nd reading and I see more proof for N+A=J. Wouldn't it be a better story that Jon who always wanted to be a Stark is actually Ned's Trueborn first son?! Another KZbinr pointed out a great clue . After Robb HUGE marriage mistake Tyrion implies to Tywin that Tywin planned the whole thing from the beginning. Knowing Robb would marry the girl he deflowers to save her honor. Tywin response "Robb Stark is his father's son." GRRM love history repeating. So if Ned slept with Ashara would his honor allow him to not marry her? Hell no. Also a quote from GRRM when asked in few years ago if he would change his later books because fans have figure it out. GRRM replied " At least one or two readers had put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues that I’d planted in the books and came to the right solution." So as late as 2014 GRRM is only referring to 1 or 2 readers?! I think he let the HBO show go that route but I think the books will not confirm R+L=J.

[@michaeltyrionjr7461]

So Sansa is the second born child of Ned and Cat so she would want winterfell queen of the north

[@thisiskamTV]

Are your videos available for download?

[@18pablo88]

so what do you think of the order of the green hand opinion Jon is Ned son with the sister of the sword of the morning & young Griff is the son of rhagar and lyana.

[@michaelwatson8890]

Great job man but how is George going to close all the plots off in just 2 books

[@coltthomson9126]

Michael Watson because at the end everyone dies. haha jk I think that is one of the biggest set backs on him finishing WOW. I wouldn't be surprised if he decides to split ADOS into two books to help him finish all the plots he's started. I wouldn't mind if he did, as long as he does finish the series before he dies! lol

[@bethqmount1160]

!!!!!

[@Thullin00]

Listen to me guys i am 200% right. Jon Snow's parents aren't Rhaegar and Lyanna it is Ashara Dayne and Eddard Stark that is his parents. Aegon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. Ashara Dayne is Septa Lemore. The 3 kingsguard at the tower of joy are Qhorin Halfhand = Oswell Whent, Tormund Giantsbane = Gerold Hightower and Mance Rayder = Arthur Dayne. Melissandre is Brynden and Shier Seastar's daughter. Brynden is good and the Children of the forest are the real enemy in the world. The three kingsguard, Manderly and a few other are apart of a secret order called the order of the green hand which purpose is to defend mankind against the real enemy the children. Val is Jon Snow's Twin. The Children caused the doom of Valyria.

[@jamesgolden4600]

you been watching order of green hand love them I hope a majority of things that happen in show don't happen in the books, but you hav to atleast except the possibility that r+l=j and that stannis dies at the battle of ice. I personally hope that both are not true but as I stated previously you have to accept the possibility

[@Thullin00]

james golden I don't think R+L=J is possible anymore. No way that it is true. The evidence for the other theory is so overwhelming. No possible way of Stannid dying in the battle of Ice. Melissandre has seen him leading the fight against the Others.

[@jamesgolden4600]

Mel is usually wrong so there is that and what evidence, everything at this point is interpretation and speculation. I'm just saying anyone who 100 percent thinks one way or the other is just setting them self up for disappointment. Nobody knows anything till the books come out.

[@lilrhodap]

Very interesting. I've been hunting around trying to figure out Ashara's deal, but there are so many different theories - augh. It's frustrating, knowing we have only two more books and House Dayne is barely dealt with. With so many other threads to wrap up (or begin, lol), I worry Ashara and her possible offspring may get thrown out as part of the story. But one of my faves. One thought - Jon is not really good enough to wield Dawn, or do you disagree? Maybe. The Waif is, and she is the right age. eh. Can't think of anyone else. Two, totally unrelated - I want Drogon fight an Ice Dragon so freaking bad. ;)

[@michaeltyrionjr7461]

Bran my be cripple but can he still have children ?

[@chinaskibloodline]

haha takes two persons to make a children

[@kilmartin5]

Nice video, great content. narration of quotes is awful, really distracts from the whole experience. terrible fake accents, there is also no need for EVERY quote to be read in hushed dramatic whispers. also odd inflections at odd moments.