The world is not a problem - Iain McGilchrist and Dougald Hine

Iain McGilchrist in conversation with Dougald Hine.
Dougald is a social thinker, writer, speaker and the co-founder of the Dark Mountain Project. Together with Paul Kingsnorth, he is the author of Uncivilisation: The Dark Mountain Manifesto (2009). His latest book is entitled At Work in the Ruins: Finding Our Place in the Time of Science, Climate Change, Pandemics & All the Other Emergencies
For more information on Dougald Hine visit dougald.nu.
For more information on Iain McGilchrist visit channelmcgilchrist.com

[@garymackelprang5716]

I feel inclined to offer a confession: I visited Scotland last summer, and offered (via some stupid, inane email) to buy Dr. McGilchrist a beer or glass of wine in the pub of his choice, because his writings and his thoughts have so transformed my understanding of the world, and my approach to reality. Now, a year or so after the initial (silly and kinda' embarrassing email) offer, I feel myself subdued; the truth of the matter is, I know that I am so inferior to his understanding and comprehension of reality that time in his presence would be little more than embarrassing. At this point, all I can do is thank him for his willingness to share his insights.

[@carolineoakshett8520]

Please don't speak of yourself as lesser. Dr McGilchrist is a source of immense unfolding to me too. I admire his deep and unique capacity to explore the mind and speak and write of his explorations. The capacity is in you too. It is not lesser. On other levels, we are all connected. Trust your own inner being. It is not lesser.

[@kbeetles]

We are all just vulnerable, often silly, human beings - yet in the image of God! Your offer sounds like good cheer!

[@johnarunachala]

Thank you Gary, for your beautiful humble confession. Ittouched me deeply. I just ‘discovered’ Iain McGilchrist and turned instantly a fan of him. His sharp intellect, his wisdom, his holistic mind-set and deep mystical intuition makes me realize that he is a ‘complete man’.

[@zaks7306]

gary, he is both a brilliant and humble person, and I am sure he appreciated it but felt unable to accept for good reasons which have no ill will towards you!

[@kkrenken895]

Good for you for trying!!

[@davidpeet3863]

The heart of the matter is Iain McGilchrist’s observation about ‘attention’ - it is an exquisite sequence that opens the mind to a whole new appreciation of reality and how it works. A radical, inspiring understanding of what it means to inhabit life. It’s not ‘new’ in the sense of a discovery. When it comes to ideas, there is nothing new under the sun, it is new in the sense that McGilchrist has found it himself, through his own investigation. It is where his research has led him. It is therefore new to him. And because he has found it this way, through honest toil as it were, it is deeply real to him. There is a ‘built on stone’ foundation to his point of view about the power and value of attention. This takes him from abstract ‘scientific’ theory to embodiment of his observation. His objective endeavour has become subjective through pure honest investigation. This might mean he has reached the same fork in the road as clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson. Peterson observes it is terrifying to think what a person might transfigure into if they ‘ran the programme’ of 100 per cent belief in God. If we define God as Love - both are wondering what might result if we gave our attention 100% to Love. I think Rowan Williams recently gave a lecture on attention. I think Simone Weil has a lot to say about it. Where we are, fascinatingly, is in the breach of experimenting with the fact that our reality responds to the attention we give it. But obviously we need to purify our attention….no small task, and no one really gives us this advice as it rather pulls the rug out from the reductionist, materialist world view that currently runs the show - and runs it very badly! I think a few brave pioneering souls can make the difference. Question: if an individual’s attention influences his or her reality then is the quality and scope of that attention the determinant of the type and scale of changes effected? Is it possible, through attention, if that attention is aligned with Love, is it possible to, for example, raise the dead? Where is the limit to the power of attention to effect change in our reality? Is it possible for one person, fully accomplished at giving attention, to change the world? I think it was a wonderful conversation and generated by Dougald Hine

[@SerendipityInTheSky]

I’ve watched a loving spoonful of McGilchrist talks and this is by far my favourite, not only due to the topic - which as a trained biologist and former political advocate for climate action and environmental conservation turned birdwatching student poet, lived experience philosopher, and amateur artist - but also the guest speaker had so much wisdom to share. I’ve heard of Dark Mountain in passing but now I will surely investigate further. Thank you both for so eloquently discussing many of the points I’ve been trying to communicate to the scientific and political communities where I am from. I will surely share this video.

[@cheri238]

I absolutely love this dance and stumbleling discussions. With the deepest appreciation and admiration for both of yours illuminating another way of viewing things. ❤

[@kateoneal4215]

It's absolutely sublime for me to create art while listening to these discussions! ❤

[@lizzie1896]

Thank you both. What treasure lies in these ruins - love that it's being seen and the encouragement to stop trying to explain or extend the story.

[@evanhadkins5532]

The way of being in the world that we need (c.3:15) I don't think has been lost, it has been devalued and we have been taught to be blind to it. We experience it all the time and we can show people where they experience it in daily life. Friendship is a major one where we can stop with the categorising and respond wholistically to the person we are engaged with.

[@carolineoakshett8520]

Beautifully said. A moment of deep recognition for me.

[@evanhadkins5532]

@@carolineoakshett8520 Thanks

[@dionissiakabylis]

I agree that "the way of being" hasn't been lost, as, it was never completely "found" across time, space and cultures. Every era of human civilization has shown some people who pay deeper attention to conscious existence and some (usually many more) who don't. However, never in recorded history has such sharing of information and peaceful exchange of ideas taken place globally. That, in itself, is a sign of progress and every single person has their potential place in it.

[@mariavarelas8041]

A conversation with Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor would so be fascinating.....Thank you

[@iankclark]

The McGilchrist maneuver: "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is". Lyrics by Donovan courtesy of Buddhist saying

[@donbursch9429]

To quote the Tao te Ching: “To know one’s place in the universe one must be able to separate and unite”

[@curtisgrindahl446]

A beautiful and profound conversation, perhaps the most subtle and honest... hospice for modernity perhaps.

[@druidjuicer636]

I love that Iain and Dougald spend a lot of time discussing the fine art of doing nothing, something my father impressed upon me many times but I still find a challenge at times. Those who act with urgency to all things end up with more power than they have wisdom. It requires much more discipline to wait for understanding to form.

[@bookchaser1103]

I was not at all surprised to hear Iain quote Alan Watts a time or two, as his philosophy was in a similar vein ....

[@zaks7306]

power without wisdom sounds familiar from The Master and His Emissary

[@finnmacdiarmid3250]

Brilliant insight. Urgent is the nature of pursuit after all. Application of pursuit is undisciplined perhaps?

[@druidjuicer636]

@@finnmacdiarmid3250 Thank you Finn. It's the automatic, unthinking application of pursuit that carves holes in people. It is only rarely that immediacy is completely necessary.

[@DavidKemp-xn4ln]

Great conversation… thanks both 🙏

[@cheri238]

It is, isn't it!!! Dr. McGilchrist books I am going through now. I am amazed by all these others who have conversations with him. It leads me to others' wisdom and books.❤

[@bookchaser1103]

​@Cheri Why Joseph Campbell once suggested finding an author, artist, poet, philosopher, etc that really resonated with you, then go and find who inspired them, and then who inspired them, etc, and the universe can unfold in a rather wonderful and consistent way. I personally came to Iain McGilchrist in an article about William Blake by Philip Pullman, and here I am.

[@cheri238]

@Book Chaser . Joseph Campbell, who taught at Stanford University in the eighties, "The Power of Myths," I loved him also. I guess it is serendipitous, isn't it? (When one loves to read books on many subjects.)

[@westcoastkelpie]

Fabulous conversation. Helped me clarify, or added dimension to, my work, and the material for a new course I'm designing. Thinking about your mother being born out of this world while your daughter was being born into it... In my mother's day, this would have been happening in the same house - different parts of the same house in a kind of sychronicity, a sychronicity which remains nonetheless the length of the motorway, but it seems to me one would be steeped in it, present to and with that, and so attentive, in the one house at the same time. I recall sitting with my mother through her last day and night here, and it was as if all the spheres were just ... there, shimmering, at the same time as her breath was changing... but there was no simultaneous other birthing

[@leonoraperron4751]

There was no simultaneous other birthing? True only if you limit your experience to the boundaries of the room. Pan out to include a greater perspective and see our birth/death dance of Life as sychronistic and ongoing.

[@TheLivirus]

Part of the problem is the shift of science from learning about nature to harnessing it. Curious people have a natural inclination to learn and seek understanding. But we are told by our institutions and culture that understanding is only as valuable as it is useful to business or goals set out by leaders. I think this is part of why the scope of science has narrowed down and produces a very fragmented picture which is often ignorant or in conflict with what makes life worth living.

[@GillCraneJournal]

I love your work. If you get the chance, please re-record your books on audible with your own voice, so much of what you say is communicated by the cadence of your voice. I feel it would make a big difference in getting your point across.

[@gillcoombs9855]

That was a lovely collaborative dialogue. in the last 15 minutes Dougald managed, through rephrasing the question slightly, to draw Iain further than I've heard before on 'What can we do?' This is the substance that educators and practical ruin-builders of all kinds need to be able to extract from Iain's philosophical observations, if they are to mean something.

[@johnhare7580]

Born into the ending of a story - our task is to leave beautiful ruins Pretty much explains Gen X

[@williamgreene4834]

Given enough time the ruins are always beautiful. Asteroids, super volcanos, ice ages, etc., The Earth always makes it beautiful. It just eliminates the " problem". We just need to stop being a problem.

[@dalibofurnell]

I'm so glad I found this. It is so on point its good. It's real. It even gave God space to talk. Now that is what gets one closer to reality. I don't expect this comment to be understood. But, shall I add this: there needs to be more conversations like this.

[@chetom700]

I am grateful everyday for the imaginations that created such technologies that enables me to listen to dialogues such as this 🙏

[@robtleroux]

“The artist’s task is to save the soul of mankind; and anything less is a dithering while Rome burns. If artists cannot find the way, then the way cannot be found.” ~ Terence McKenna

[@missh1774]

Thank you for writing our human stories for this earth. 💛 "Born into the end of the world" wow. Sounds like the vine. Really amazing and strange conversation. Lol thank you all the same.

[@socrates399bce]

Amazing, enlightened and enlightening. I'm going to share far and wide.

[@foxdenham]

...and I very much appreciate you (Iain) sharing that personal moment surrounding the birth of your third child and the death of your mother. I have known a similar experience in my own life and the reality of time perception and emotional resonance (that surrounded these types of events) can not me quantified, or indeed fully explained with words. Her mystery and beauty are beyond my general, stumbling ways of communicating. Thank you for your sharing this xx

[@jylyhughes5085]

Beautiful!

[@kathybochicchio1411]

The world may be something other than what it appears

[@mattspintosmith5285]

I've read Dougald Hine's new book. I found his section on the predicament of the Estonian town reliant on a polluting industry now facing closure the most thought provoking excerpt within it.

[@GrimrDirge]

On the one hand I do experience the field of being as a unified whole experiencing itself subjectively; very similar to the Gnostic/Alchemical/Hegelian/Vedic/Buddhist perspective. On the other hand, I don't see this as a problem but a solution; for the same reason why my entire body is not mapped an felt by one enormous nerve, but a network of nerves reporting subjectively. The Gnostic/Hegelian/Marxian instinct seems to demand a "reunification" but I cannot understand how they bridge the is/ought gap to conclude a problem so great that it justifies mass murder. Am I alone in this? I feel that there is a cosmic reason for our separateness which may be beyond my ken, which would be insane to countermand.

[@andrewblake2254]

The hungry sheep look up and they are fed.

[@foxdenham]

Thank you chaps. A wonderful, freeing discourse. This perfectly correlates with Rupert Sheldrake's observations (in his book 'The Science Delusion') regarding the limitations and possibilities of our challenges within the current zeitgeist.

[@asdf8asdf8asdf8asdf]

Poignant story to illustrate time at the end -saying goodbye to the grandmother, and hello to the child. ❤️ … stepping backwards in the talk to the CP snow, Goldman Sachs magic flute section.… One wonders how deep this ‘right/left’ divide goes…if even industrious ants who occasionally get caught in meaningless unproductive swirls on their work marches, are demonstrating a very early emergence of this divergence between busy/problem-solving and useful/connected?

[@johnalbert5786]

The problem with humans … is that we think we can and should control a system that We are far from qualified to take on.

[@moosmoosicformootualaid]

Fantastic

[@Ayesha_F]

This reminds me of the work Bayo Akomolafe is doing as well

[@mattspintosmith5285]

'Hospicing modernity' seems to me an Integral concept (in the sense of Integral philosophy).

[@memeful4]

Glad to hear Iain's thoughts here. I've been pondering on this topic as to where we're heading after reading his books, thoughts including this divergence of evolution that's converging to bust had potentially been reoccurring indefinitely; our planet as in a cellular sense in relation to a greater, larger consciousness beyond the "darkness" of the cosmos; imagination as a third place for various types of brains to finally see one another, and here, predicament/delusionment as a necessary phase, as coincidentia oppositorum, to incorporate knowledge for deeper acceptance of one's existence/reality.

[@abcrane]

Coercive competition, forcible cooperation, these are the mechanisms of fascism, right or left. Spontaneous competition, spontaneous cooperation, these are the fundamental movements towards authentic democracy. The former, contrivances of the negating attitudes and actions wielded at life. The latter, rooted in life’s affirming unadulterated embrace. I believe when people try to solve the world's social and biological epidemics, they often try to to use force and coercion. This style of collective or individualistic (economic, cultural) approaches are of this left brain valuation process. So yes I agree that we must begin with this sort of letting go of the "trying" to solve problems, but that does not negate the need for structured, dynamic, organized approaches, which can be a very naive sentiment. It's the forced, coerced approaches that got us into this mess, and they will not get us out of it. Yet, it's the "reaction of disgust" with these mechanistic "herdings" that make us gun shy of the new structures that we desperately DO need. Early free markets did begin in the right direction, as did certain socialist movements of the decentralized sorts. Centralization in monopoly and government bureaucracy was their downfall. I fear that what both lacked, and thus made them vulnerable to force and coercion, was their lack of organization and direction. Marcuse pitted "production for its own sake" against "creativity for its own sake" then sort of concluded that productivity could and should be accomplished with technology that could produce for us. But in that sense, he was still admitting the (obvious) importance of production. This is an unnecessary dichotomy. The mending of which is the beginning of organic solutions in sustainability.

[@mattspintosmith5285]

The stopping - the walking way is characteristic of what is called the Yellow MEME (paradigm) in the Spiral Dynamics model. The first 'Second Tier' stage...

[@frankfeldman6657]

This is all making the spirit of Alan Watts very happy. :-)

[@MH-ln6pv]

John Michael Greer reference: would love to see JMG and Iain discuss their ideas.

[@suecooper9011]

Thankyou. "The effort to solve, control, plan, strategize and the arrogance of knowing, gives way to surrendering, surrendering to the 'not knowing' and all efforts are placed in the hands of a vast force that is more powerful than any realization of non-duality. When one finally gives up one's futile attempts to make reality conform to one's own wishes, and allows it to unfold on its own terms, all the energy that was tied up in foolish attempts to manipulate the universe is freed up"

[@givemorephilosophy]

16.45 min If we could explain the life atom or soul which uses the two hemispheres of the brain and does all the understanding. The evaluation the validation the visualisation all happens in different layers of this life atom which can be easily explained.

[@givemorephilosophy]

23.35 min The system is already there and all that human being needs to know as to what his name role in the whole complex system is. He will be able to do it only after understanding the same and not by leaving pieces of it. All that affects him and that is connected but will not affect him needs to be understood in its entirety🙏🙏🙏 I have that knowledge as a proposal and submit for your evaluation with complete confidence that you will be so aligned and feel it as the way forward for humanity

[@ingenuity296]

Unless we look young and as strong and healthy as the young, it's pointless to live forever.

[@givemorephilosophy]

40min Amazing explanation of God. A static non depleting energy field that coexists and so subtle to be with everything else be in everything else be around everything else and yet be static.

[@jameswaterhouse-brown6646]

Are we still treating co2 as a danger to the planet?

[@joshuamrosenau]

Is there a distinction being made here between the earth and the world or not?

[@andromadaus]

Invitation to stumble,(not goose step) together into a reasonable & collaborative joy dance, in which simple steps of harm reduction can help conceive then birth a large enough space for flourishing social,spiritual and environmental unversalism. All this with high hopes of maximum sustainability over a vast amount of time ?

[@hardlyearnest280]

Soaring though deep thinkers thoughts

[@sararichardson737]

Skye!

[@givemorephilosophy]

7.3 min The helplessness of the scientist is their dogmatic approach of sticking to empirical data and not experiencing reality which is beyond their physicochemical mechanical world. Not understanding that their knowledge is limited and we need to be open to learning and appreciating the knowledge outside the reductionist material world.

[@HCh-bj9ox]

21:05 Not surprised that the most left hemisphere of all institutions are approaching Dr. McGilchrist for advice and, as he calls them, ‘bullet points.’ Gutted to hear he’s willing to entertain their concerns.

[@givemorephilosophy]

10.30 min Knowing both the physical and the non physical emotional thing as a real substance. I can explain the formless and the form. In the form we have the visible and the invisible. Human imagination and vision can comprehend and understand all of these. I have and so will everyone. That will make us all human and rid of inhuman behavior. Neither exploit nor be exploited. Would love to get on a call and explain anybody interested 🙏🙏🙏

[@theorisoe3630]

11:50 Isn't climate change a dogma?

[@donbursch9429]

According to scientist Patrick Moore it is. He has very compelling arguments for why it has become an obsession and as far as I can tell he does not have a political agenda

[@benmcconaghy3313]

Interesting elision over the reality of war as they breeze through the 'map of Afghanistan ' and the military quest to get McGilchrist to help.them get lovely and intuitive. Talking about seeing reality without seeing the horror under your nose. That can't happen if you are innoculated from.the presumptions of privilege. Go and put your hands in the earth either to burrow for shelter or find some food.

[@Jane-xt4lu]

Thank you for the stimulating video, it made a bit more explicit to me, the underlying assumptions behind a wearying proliferation of battlecries to 'save the world'. Some thoughts arose: 1. Is it remotely possible to get from data to wisdom? Especially at the level of a global network of societies? (no). 2. What is this arrogance of one generation of people trying to 'fix the world' for all future generations. We know how that goes. 3. There are no 'things', except as nouns in language. In reality, all is process. 4. As the Buddha said 2,500 years ago, this is the essential nature of all existence: it is inherently impermanent, it is inherently unsatisfactory, and any sense there is a me, that anything is mine, is an illusion.

[@robertsmuggles6871]

Where political and social problems are concerned people often talk about a solution. As if life has an answer like a quadratic equation. Hitler had a final ‘solution’, the Chinese have similar 'solutions'. I blame maths teachers.

[@givemorephilosophy]

35 min The world is just the continuous present. The past and the future are in our imagination. This is the potential which every human being is endowed with. We just need to be in order as a species Aligning our thoughts speech and action. Can expand this to connect to everyday living..

[@patrickgoff6512]

summarization:. we are not God and we are desperately attempting to find a way to circumvent that fact. interesting discussion but ultimately we must change ourselves first ...... only then does the world change. Thy will be done🙏

[@benmcconaghy3313]

mass in b minor came out of the universe - it is of of the cosmos , yes , but the cosmos still says So What. We are in reality , of reality and our going will confirm that. Play the mass and let your God forget you.

[@geoffreydawson5430]

According to the diaspora of the Greeks and Kushans? I could easily show you depression in Japan. But, of course, you publish and have an audience in the West. So nice to still have uncolonised Nations that think differently, albeit today Thailand is the sex-change capital of the world despite being a conservative Buddhist country. Japan blurs images of genitals and shames people that do not follow a will of happiness. Thailand accuses transgender people of past lives. Meanwhile, we mindlessly follow Jon Kabat Zinn and his mindless crusade to being a Bodhisattva. So sick of being told I have to be kind. I would fall on the strict conservative side of Buddhism for I simply see no point in the State other than to tell me what to do. Happy to drive on the right side of the road but stay the hell away from my soul. Whatever happened to Pink Floyd concerts?

[@skynet4496]

Taoism and Zen Buddhism are much more realistic than the major religions which obsess over a theorized reality beyond this one, like Buddhism's nirvana. Pink Floyd is over but Roger Waters has carried the torch in his concerts and music. He questioned the COVID lockdowns and the jabs. He is anti war, especially the current one in eastern Europe. He wants Julian assange freed. A true anti-authoritarian. Gilmore on the other hand became pro authority, lol.

[@geoffreydawson5430]

@@skynet4496 Zen is Mahayana Buddhism (mindlessly staring at a wall with an open heart, whilst asking what one hand clapping sounds like. Hierarchical koan training). Taoism with Confucianism is of Chinese origin. Shinto, very similar (pragmatism), is of Japanese origin. But that is not my point. I was rambling as Iain's work is fascinating, but I find his philosophising difficult at times as I study the social anthropology of religion and its emergence with Western medicine. The Kushan Empire, from my understanding, through the influence of the Greeks, politicised the Buddha's teaching (there were many cults and religions at the time). Therefore making it a down-to-earth material political philosophy. Mahayana Buddhists do not rely on a lay community, logical because if we were all to be monks how would people eat (Theravadan monks cannot work, unless no other choice)? So, the secular West is being moulded into Mahayana Buddhists, through contemporary (hard?) psychology. "Have you done your five minutes of mindfulness today? No wonder you are so unkind". I have nothing against, as Iain argues, attention being an apriori moral act. Just unhappy when my morality is politicised.

[@user-xb6fl9ri6g]

Found my way here from a subreddit about Analytic Idealism, anyone who makes the short list with Bernardo Kastrup has gotta be worth hearing :)

[@paulmclean876]

How unfortuante for a conversation to be rooted in climate change nonsense. If one cannot rise above the cacophany of psedo scientific gobbldygook then what's the point - a wasted effort.

[@jameslaver6970]

And a conversation with a CC cultist to boot. It was really hard to stomach. I had to stop watching after 10 minutes and went onto the next McGilchrist video. Thank God