Drums that Move makes the Marble Machine FUN!

[@Wintergatan]

Check out the awesome Marble Machine from Engineezy: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWLOpGOMrp5rgas Double conveyor belts on that one looks so great :)

[@kaisersozeh7845]

There is a Spanish guy making a digital clock, and I am amazed to see him pulling it off, last I checked. Nice one sharing Engineezy! Edit : Ivan Miranda's digital clock

[@wombleofwimbledon5442]

Why not just light it with LEDs?

[@yama-fanboy]

ffs stop tinkering and get on with the project

[@Tsudico]

@@wombleofwimbledon5442 Yes, it would be so much better for the drum to remain stationary so that the marbles have reduced variability in the path they might travel. Making the drums light up when hit would still provide indication that they were hit while reducing the possible errors that can occur by a moving drum.

[@sinisterresident]

what's next? fire and a waterfall? lol

[@awkwardsaxon9418]

Martin: drums need impeccable timing Also Martin:

[@vilian9185]

actually yes, he made everything have perfect timing, so they can relax in other parts to make it cool

[@ltecosta]

beat me to it

[@alexashitomi]

My fear of Martin redoing all project in 2028 saying Function over Form:📈📈

[@TheLuizfrds]

@@alexashitomi we will get there

[@SweetishSnail]

He literally said he doesn't care about that anymore

[@Rurexxx]

"Drums should move when hit" is already an implementation detail. I think the requirement is "Instruments shall visibly indicate when they are being hit, even to a distant viewer". Maybe moving up and down is the best way to do it, maybe it isn't. You could consider other ways, like for example sound-activated LEDs, which would be visible even better and even further, and can be applied to other instruments, like the vibraphone.

[@mattnold8557]

@@Rurexxx absolutely brilliantly said!

[@Art_for_Mage]

While LEDs would show when they get hit, its not mechanical. This is meant to be a mechanical instrument

[@raedev]

Alternatively, automated fake movements would work too. Why rely on the drum and springs changing everything based on temperature, humidity and other variables, when you could make the drum "bounce" with decent enough timing in a fake way that is always the same and behaves well based on the actual programming wheel?

[@JamesBlacklock]

LEDs are not allowed!!!!

[@stephenpinkston8300]

came here to say this.

[@LastRoseStudios]

25 episodes later - We are making the drums stationary because the timing is too far off and it is not precise enough.

[@dallenpowell2745]

Better than never trying in the first place.

[@Lasergurka]

@@dallenpowell2745 Is it? Him constantly pivoting on his vision is what made me check out of this project, but as long as there are a few people still supporting the patreon then I guess he can infinitly redo everything

[@dallenpowell2745]

@@Lasergurka I don't come here to watch him make progress. I come here to watch him have fun. I root for him to make progress. The creative process is rarely fast and never consistent.

[@WesHawkins0]

@@Lasergurka I'm confident he's never finishing this thing just so he can milk Patreon subs as long as he can.

[@LaggyLuke]

@@WesHawkins0 Yeah I would have kept supporting him on patreon if he had just made one full song on MMX. He was happy enough with the first one to make a full song, why not the second one?

[@The4stro]

wintergatan: "feature creep is bad" also wintergatan every video: "look at this new feature im adding to the marble machine"

[@sean_miller]

We are soooooooo far past anything resembling a realistic project. Bro's just having fun with musical nonsense and we can watch or not. lol

[@Rex-zs9jd]

@@sean_miller when he first started making videos about the MM3 it seemed achievable, but its now going back to what caused the MMX to fail

[@stevesteveson2435]

The shirt should be changed to "I used to believe". It was going so well too.

[@oBCHANo]

@@Rex-zs9jd The only real issue with this project is the scum watching it whining about everything he does.

[@jerrr-c-squared]

@@Rex-zs9jd The difference here is that he's not starting with a form factor for the machine and trying to cram everything into in, and having to redo whole sections when things don't work as planned. Now he's looking at what he wants and thinks could be included in the machine first, testing those ideas, and then he'll figure out how it can go together.

[@RaoulEvilD]

1 pivot: predictible movement, tuning possible. 2 pivots: fundamentally unpredictible movement, this is one of the most famous chaotic kinematic movement know as the "double pendulum". As famous as the "3 bodies problem" in physics or predicting the wave patterns in deep sea.

[@theoarcher896]

This. And it’ll make it much harder to predict where the marble goes after it hits the drum.

[@timepasteque]

This has nothing to do with double pendulum chaos, it is perfectly predictable but just harder

[@YogiTheBearMan]

1 pivot looked better I think

[@TYANTOWERS]

@@YogiTheBearMan I liked one pivot too, but on the arm with the counterweights, not the spring. I think the long arm should pivot and have springs for faster return. Or make the drums a bit heavier

[@RaoulEvilD]

@@timepasteque the only thing making the contraption somewhat pedictible is its high dampening factor. Indeed, providing the time constant is however resonably short Martin decides it to be, to ensure consistant behavior the contraption must be either: 1) over-dampened enough so that small variation of the spring rate or dampening factor doesn't lead to high variation of behavior or 2) very well controled dampening and spring rate. This flies against the "resilient design" concept. I believe it is "easy" to ensure tightly controled dampening and springs rate with semi-specialized parts, but I doubt those are the parts you will find in your local home-depot. Therefore the most robust solution is to overdamp the contraption. Overdamped systems drastically reduces the visual feedback, which goes against Martin's will. Hence the challenge that I am forseing using 2 pivots instead of 1. I might be right, I might be wrong... Further investigation is needed in my opinion...

[@mumiemonstret]

9:40 "I wanna lay such a *FIRM* foundation so that the project can become a success"... Let's make a *WOBBLY* drum!

[@maartenvandervalk6062]

Hahahaha😂

[@DevinDTV]

lmao

[@Squant]

The foundation is in the marble drop. Implement tightness where it matters, so that you can have fun where it matters. The soul has returned to the music.

[@gustavgans8278]

@@Squantwhen you scrap one whole project, because it wasn’t accurate enough, it sounds ridiculous to add inaccuracies at the planning stage. Why won’t you build the marble machine first, before worrying about aesthetics? There were multiple episodes focusing on form follows function. Moving drums can be implemented once the project does work. It shouldn’t be a priority at this stage. Getting lost in details is dangerous. And he’s seemingly aware of that. It’s easier to make a working machine fun, than to make a fun machine work. He already learned that lesson.

[@zipperking007]

On next week's episode: KINETIC FINGERS!

[@andrewbailey8424]

Kinetic Fingers have entered the chat.

[@SimonRosen-]

YEEEEEES! We are so close to the time ive been waiting for.

[@LordAlcol]

@@SimonRosen- Time to start a new machine from scratch?

[@orb-enjoyer4980]

​@@LordAlcolkinetic fingers would be better than moving drums, prove me wrong

[@travisbic]

@@orb-enjoyer4980 Hear me out, kinetic fingers, bouncing drums, rotating percussion block wheels, super precise timing, no marbles lost, it'll be beautiful. How hard can it be? /s But seriously, I love watching this and I sincerely hope that one day the artist and the perfectionist in Martin find a middle ground where they're happy putting together a machine to play full songs.

[@bonzairob]

Another visual trick could be to use fluorescent marbles and a blacklight. It'd brighten them even in well-lit stages, and in the dark they'd probably leave cool trails through the air...

[@melimsah]

I just internally swooned at the idea of this! God that would look so cool

[@anteshell]

I'm not sure if there's any kind of paint that would stick on smooth metal while also withstanding constant grinding and abrasion. One solution to that would be to stone wash the marbles. The paint would stick much better but it would also induce much more wear and tear to the machine. I'm not sure if the trade-off would be worth it, as that kind of slow degradation would make it really hard to predict if something is going to give in during a gig and subsequently increasing maintenance cost heavily. The best case scenario would be if the marbles could be electro-plated, anodised or diffused with some kind of fluorescent material, but I'm unaware if there even exists such materials.

[@ramani3565]

Using a stroboscope could also give really nice effects of "frozen" marbles in the air

[@nathaliea_girl4616]

I was thinking LEDs on the drums, but your idea is better

[@Krmpfpks]

@@anteshellit would require the marbles to be coated in plastic, acrylic or something like that. Pure would be to light I guess.

[@brianknow9142]

I feel like we have done this and pulled back because of drop consistency.

[@HenrikMyrhaug]

Yes, but... Last time, he wanted tiny funnels for the marbles to land in. This could still work if he has a big funnel.

[@famitory]

@@HenrikMyrhaug don't need to worry about marbles on the floor if you make the entire floor your return funnel

[@gunar.kroeger]

yeah but imagine the noise from the marbles falling to the floor level

[@el_es]

@@gunar.kroeger he had a 'solution' to that on previous video (a throw in a bucket, so thick wool material in a large opening)

[@Rex-zs9jd]

yes this video almost dooms the project in my mind tbh

[@xandermoyle]

Keep the marble stationary and drop many drums on a single marble.

[@kanesideram7651]

This is heart breaking to watch. Every time he takes a definitive step forwards as an engineer, he pivots and takes a step backwards with feature creep or extra complications. More mechanical parts. More things that can go wrong. And then a few months later he’ll realise and do another “I’ve read 3 books on design and I’ve seen the light”. Rinse repeat. Videos like this genuinely make me feel like we’ll never see this thing completed. Its still a fun journey, but man.. these moments can be exhausting.

[@Squant]

I feel like you're putting too much emotion into this if you're not just watching the videos and being amused at the crazy man making a marble machine. Fix yourself, fix the problem.

[@yeeliz2400]

he's just milking the cow as long as possible. people are paying this guy to play with balls and run in circles

[@AbrahamLure]

I feel sick watching his vids. As a creator myself, these videos remind me of the worst of creature creep

[@ChristianBChr]

I feel like this'll either end up being the creation of a perpetual motion machine, or turn into a somber tale that'll be told for generations to come

[@yeeliz2400]

@@Squant nope, making false promises in exchange of money (Patreon) and not sticking to those promises is unethical, that's the problem.

[@xtrplpqtl]

2022: "Overengineering is the enemy" 2024: "MOVING DRUMS!"

[@MCRuCr]

There is a tradeoff between playing "tight" and playing "fun". It's the death every engineer has to take

[@rinnin]

Is Martin an Artist or Engineer though?

[@MCRuCr]

@@rinnin why not both?

[@AbrahamLure]

​@@MCRuCryou can be both but it's pretty much impossible to be both at the same time in a project. He needs a buddy and accountability partner at this point

[@feedee92j]

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[@AbrahamLure]

I love this quote so much

[@Purified-Bananas]

Martin left the kinetic fingers aside, but the kinetic fingers have never left Martin.

[@flipperdk123]

Form from function Martin. Keep it simple, make it work, add embellishment later. Don't redo MMX mistakes.

[@thomasbecker9676]

Too late.

[@Rex-zs9jd]

yeah while the new wintergatan wednesdays have been fun to watch, every single one of them has been about a new feature that wasn't even part of the MMX, and this one is an old MMX feature brought back. the MM3 sounded achievable originally but now i dont know if I see how it can go any different than the MMX if he doesn't return to the principles he started with

[@juntobeats22]

Where’s the “FUN” in that…? 😂 (sorry for the Patreons.. again)

[@xmtxx]

@@Rex-zs9jd Exactly my thoughts. It's feature creep over feature creep. On the other hand Martin stated that, without those, he wouldn't feel happy. Pretty sure he would loose interest in the project. I just hope, that he knows, whilst having fun, the MM3 will not be achievable.

[@izanefe4231]

so we've come full circle now with the drum designs lol, just like the first MMX prototype but with real drums now

[@kumbackquatsta]

aka fraud

[@ilyaholt8607]

​@@kumbackquatstaNah. Hanlon's razor applies here.

[@elindred]

The MMX was the empire strikes back. The marble drop timing standard deviation minimizer arc was the return of the Jedi. Wobbly drums is admiral ackbar dying by being sucked out of an airlock.

[@erik_erikson]

Wow, this feels like I'm watching somebody during a manic episode.

[@dranorter]

I think there's always been an aspect of "watching someone go insane" in marble machine videos. Someone made a story game inspired by early MMX, and that story game always ends with failure of the machine.

[@Jeronidemus]

This video feels like a big middlefinger to all those months of hard work getting the machine to be able to play tight music that can go right into the bin.

[@mrbfox1775]

It’s all a grift by a KZbin content creator. The goal is not a machine that plays music with marbles. The goal is the patreon revenue.

[@craigtorso]

And thank god for that. “Tight” music was always the most boring goal of this project.

[@Squant]

Nah, it seems like the payoff. Extra precise engineering on the boring stuff means more leeway on the fun stuff.

[@yeeliz2400]

more months = more money $$$$$ (for him, not you)

[@HoriakChannel]

-🗿engineering should be simple and ingenious - 😁it should look good - 🗿if it looks good, then it ceases to be accurate - 😁oh sure, and also it still has to look FUN ... and again and again 😂

[@orbi2542]

My daughter was in kindergarten, I showed her Marblemachine and she was delighted. It's been 10 years ago. Now my daughter plays various instruments. She takes the first places in music competitions and is disappointed that Wintergatan has not built a new Machine yet. It's a pity!

[@BlueDrumSteam]

I love this. It‘s like watching Groundhog Day for the fith time

[@raylandmagalhaes1462]

8:11 see you guys in 9 years

[@thomasbecker9676]

That's optimistic.

[@PoniePie16]

This part where he keeps talking about planning all feels like coping from him lol.

[@benoni3665]

FOCUS MARTIN!! We've been through this before. And don't take this the wrong way. Just looking out for you

[@thomasbecker9676]

There's money to be made in prolonging the problem.

[@hangair9736]

Martin is deep in the KZbin game! I hope he realizes and gets out of it in time. I miss his music...

[@Squant]

@@thomasbecker9676 And entertainment to be had. You keep looking for faults though.

[@thomasbecker9676]

@@Squant One doesn't have to look far. You keep believing though, and join the rest of the cult in line for the world tour.

[@piratk]

Coming up: programmable drum movement tension.

[@williamcadence]

As much as I love the eccentricity Martin. I also would like to see you on the world tour before I'm 50 😂 (38 now)

[@lambo_drives]

Hear, here 😊 build kit; tour; then make awesome kit of dynamics…. Or something for a sideshow

[@Rex-zs9jd]

yeah all these new features are going to add up, not to mention old MMX features being brought back, after it was acknowledged why that project failed

[@osculant]

World tour was always an erroneous parameter. Millions of subscribers, hundreds of thousands of regular video watchers, yet a world tour would only ever sell dozens of thousands of tickets. Personally, at this point I couldn’t care less as to designing the MM3 turns impedes a world tour as long ad the video production quality doesn’t drop. Let’s be honest, the videos are the art of his that 99.9% of us will ever consume.

[@lambo_drives]

@@osculant yeah; but after watching hours and hours of HANNES keeping us in check during the MMX streams… I only felt it fitting to implore him to embrace Martin and whisper to him “noooo” 😊

[@madixj]

I would also like to see the show before I'm 50 (I'm 17 now)

[@stagesol]

This has changed from `I want to make world tour` to `lets tinker a little bit every week or so`

[@mrbfox1775]

That’s the goal. The KZbin money. Not a concert or a functional machine

[@timonix2]

​@@mrbfox1775 bloody finally. Sure if he would make a tour I would likely watch it if it was in my home city. But man that's very unlikely. I am basically guaranteed to watch everything on youtube though. Build it for the tubes. It's about the journey, not the destination.

[@pcl89]

​@@mrbfox1775 and the patreons money. He really should do sponsorships instead of taking so much cash from his patreons...

[@Squant]

@@timonix2 This guy gets it.

[@lennon4710]

Feature creep is back on the menu boys!

[@briancampbell179]

No. Feature creep happens AFTER the feature set has been specified. He's not there yet. It is good that Martin is testing the feasibility of features before adding them to the list. The easiest thing in the world would be to just write up a list of features and start designing. That would result in failure as would stripping the features back so far that the resultant machine would not do what he wants. From what he says at the end of the video, he is aware that if he gets stuck in this phase, the Marble Machine will never be built. The flip side is that if he skips through this phase too quickly, he'll build another one that basically doesn't work.

[@xmtxx]

​@@briancampbell179 Features have been set by MMX, as he couldn't even achieve it. The goal of the new method, was to finish the machine, not to iterate on a working version (which doesn't exists). This is definitelly feature creep, and over complication. And he has been doing it since, very early into the project. On the other hand, I've heard Martin stating that those feature creep, are fun to him. Seems that, without them he would loose interest in the project. I just hope, that he knows, the MM3, won't be achievable, at this point.

[@briancampbell179]

@@xmtxx, no he didn't. Feature set for MM3 is whatever HE decides the feature set for MM3 is. It is not decided by you or me

[@xmtxx]

@@briancampbell179 You can get all "technically" ou want, you don't get my point. As he couldn't even achieve MMX, the most features he should expect for MM3 to have a chance of building it, are the ones from MMX, or less. And I'm pretty that was agreed on, in the begining of the project (MM3). Not more. Every time he adds something, he gets farther from its original goal of building MM3, and the more likely the project is to fail.

[@briancampbell179]

@@xmtxx , it wasn't the feature set that brought the MMX undone. It was his whole design approach which is the exact thing he is addressing here. With MMX, he drew it up in CAD then started building. Everything was designed with no idea whether it would actually work. It is why so much was swapped out and changed as it was built. It was not the number of vibraphone channels it had or the range of percussion instruments incorporated in the design. It was having to add a demagnetiser because the lift mechanism magnetised the marbles. It was having to totally replace the marble distribution system because marbles jammed. It was having to replace the release mechanism. All basic functions needed by any machine regardless of the feature set. This time, Martin is taking a more methodical approach to the actual design. I sense a lot of impatience amongst his audience with the tinkering with feature ideas. He is progressing more slowly than a professional engineer would because he's not a professional engineer. That doesn't bother me. I understand what he is doing and believe he is on the right track. Whether it will produce a successful MM3 is something only time will tell, but he has a better chance now than before and it has absolutely nothing to do with the feature set. So yes, I did get your point. I politely declined to comment on it because it was nonsense.

[@dvdemon187]

Maybe our Grandchildren will get to watch Martin's Grandchildren play the machine on tour when it's finally done. 🤣

[@YozhikvTumane]

Kinetic fingers

[@abrafkalif]

oh, so true

[@juntobeats22]

Yes, Lets do that again too 😂

[@rosseastman2134]

That's where my mind went I won't lie. I worry about Martin having another crisis of faith with MMX, but sympathise with the rollercoaster of design and implementation. Personally, I think the project might suffer from not having a restricted enough set or requirements. Because when a product is designed well, the designers aren't happy that they couldn't get extra features in and the engineers aren't happy that they couldn't use a technique or material that could have made the product _perfect_. This is when end users get the best experience, when no one has gotten quite what they wanted out of the design and production stage, so the product is balanced. Just my unsolicited 2p

[@SimonRosen-]

Do it do it do it!!!

[@jvrcreativedesigner2680]

Surely I can't be the only one shaking his head in disbelief throughout this video. WhatTAAFAAAA...

[@Rex-zs9jd]

this is bad

[@Naimed1983]

Yep. I was like, "Oh no."

[@mrbfox1775]

His goal is the KZbin revenue. He has no intention of making a machine and touring.

[@jvrcreativedesigner2680]

@@mrbfox1775 yeah, it's deceiving and actually starting to bother me. I'm this close to unsubscribing.

[@Wilczylak]

Everything lead to this, i'm not in disbelief, it was a matter of thime

[@yama-fanboy]

Martin: No more tinkering Nobody: Future Martin: hold my beer

[@adriannunez5209]

might be difficult to play repeated notes fast when waiting for the drum to return to its original position

[@VegascoinVegas]

More drums then

[@lightspiritblix1423]

He did say in the video that he doesn't care about that at this point

[@Sthunderrocker]

@@adriannunez5209 exactly

[@the24throguecannon]

assuming the splayed out layout of the machine, he had the space for a less accurate marble catching setup

[@VegascoinVegas]

Maybe add an echo chamber

[@Isenlyn]

15s in and my brain is screaming "marbles on the floor !" Let's see where this rabbit hike goes. ^^

[@NomadTheFerret]

I'm taking a wild guess here, but this seems like a procrastination tactic. Personally i feel this addition adds significantly more complexity and setup(logistics is crying right now) to the design with very little benefit, no one other than the front row would even notice. If your intention is to make a stationary museum piece and tinker forever, do that, but let people know, you have backers with an expectation, you should manage it. But at the end of the day, I LOVE WHAT YOU'RE DOING, KEEP DOING IT!

[@geckomoshpit]

He needs to get over the idea of building the perfect MM3 in one go. I love all the Animusic inspired explorations that have happened, but adding those as mandatory features into the next version of the MM3 is a recipe for disaster. It's too much to manage and poses a real danger to ever seeing a reliably functioning MM. Martin needs to learn and kill his darlings. And he desperately needs a success story in the not too distant future. A barebones MM3, along the feature scope of the MM2 should be his aim right now.

[@mrbfox1775]

His goal and grift is making the videos and taking peoples patreon money.

[@ThatSockmonkey]

​@@mrbfox1775nobody made anyone sign up.

[@xmtxx]

Well, you expressed what I've been feeling for month, way better than I could do. i concurr.

[@Squant]

@@mrbfox1775 Dude, you keep repeating the same comment. You are by far the most desperately miserable person on KZbin right now. Go to bed.

[@TurtlesLV]

Oh no, he's at it again.

[@killymxi]

"I know which machine I want to work with for the upcoming 10 years" - Martin, 2024

[@YozhikvTumane]

If 10 is enough

[@FuncleChuck]

10 Years in engineering terms is “we know it’s possible but we are never going to get there.”

[@dflosounds]

I think he meant "work with" as in perform with.

[@John_Weiss]

​@@dflosoundsYes but at this rate, it's more like "Work _on_ for the next 10 years."

[@killymxi]

@@dflosounds I think the same, but I decided it is an interesting statement either way

[@Nullpersona]

"Our drummer can't keep time, but by golly do they look cool trying!"

[@jittipatshobbakbun6516]

I know this is like not very precise and all but I do like there he doesn’t loose his child like wonder seeking even after getting dragged into all the engineering spreadsheets, processes, etc.

[@AbrahamLure]

He is so clearly depressed, man. He's chasing feeling fun but isn't able to feel it. I hope he gets better.

[@m8edofallm8eds]

IMO the small fast pivot looks best 👌

[@EVILBUNNY28]

Martin I’m so glad you’ve had your epiphany moment about the timing. You’re a professional musician, you can hear the slightest deviation in tightness. Most people can’t. I certainly can’t, I started watching the marble machine project for the engineering/marble aspect of it, I’m not the slightest bit in the know of any of the music side. When you did your tightness tests a few months ago you were completely tearing all the timings apart, and for me it all sounded great. We don’t want a perfectly timed, well oiled machine, we want a fun machine with all the bells and whistles, having slight deviations adds character and gives to the whimsical wacky feeling that a live band should give off. It gives personality and life to the performance.

[@arvidnorberg3530]

Id believe the trajectory would be inconsistent, and with your millisecond standards, id think the outcome of moving drums would work against your goals

[@RazingthenRaising]

The level of complexity you are headed toward is going to be mind boggling. Setting this up is going to be a MASSIVE ordeal, and making it so that it can be taken apart, put back together, and then played is going to be amazing to see. If you can do that without WEEKS of set-up and tuning for process, you will have succeeded in an engineering feet few could ever do, much less pull off.

[@BurningPixels]

Maintainability? More things to break? Feature creep?

[@emilrostad9720]

I would suggest using a drum trigger that can be mounted on the rim of the drum, and use the midi signal from drum hits to trigger lights or other effects, this way you get to keep the precision and possibilities for drum beats and fast fills. You can use acrylic drums and mount the lights inside it, making for an awesome light shot. The loss of precision seems way to big to be worth it, and it severely limits the number of drum beats that you can program by having to wait for the drum to return. Also, the new different angles that the drum will have at different times means the "catching" mechanism has to be bigger. This will probably obstruct more than the small movements will show motion. Flashing lights can be seen in the whole concert hall.

[@OperationDx1]

Exactly.

[@DaP84]

Yes, but it doesn't communicate the drum being played in a mechanical way, by being hit by a marble. Won't be apparent a bit further back

[@ripplesplash6505]

Very MM1-esque! Always love the parts of the machine that act more like kinetic sculptures

[@JIVV]

This is honestly a big no, not only it will drastically change marbles trajectory each bounce, potentially making them fall to the floor again, not only it will ruin the whole "keeping timing consistent" thing you've been struggling with for over a year, but it will also acomplish nothing realistically speaking, that little bounce sure looks cool but only if you're insanely close to the machine, people in a stage will not notice the slightes movement from that far away. Maybe a better solution would be to have colored marbles (maybe flourescent?) so everyone can see their trajectories from any distance

[@kin2naruto]

He is using a "catch basin" style prototype for the marbles. Put a transparent panel in front as a backstop and ALL marbles will always be caught. No "bounce targets" to be missed!

[@31chh0rn]

I agree that the movement won't be seen from a distance. I'd rather at a light effects on hit. There would be basically infinite possibilities to make the percussion pop out visually for everyone, without any compromise to timing or mechanical complexity.

[@Koushakur]

@@31chh0rn This is a purely mechanical project, adding electrical solutions is a no-starter

[@Squant]

Unless we're talking stadium performances, they will 100% be able to see drums moving. I see it in regular performances with drums that aren't spring-loaded.

[@atstrollz6875]

Simplicity at its best 😂

[@HolySerega]

He's back at it...

[@Leyland1989Net]

Remember form follows function... form follows function... form follows function... Repeat after me, form follows function...

[@camembertdalembert6323]

what do you mean ? function follow form ? It's ambiguous

[@deathsheir2035]

@@camembertdalembert6323 Form follows function: Functionality is prioritized over aesthetics. "It looks cool, because it works." Function follows form: aesthetics is prioritized over functionality. "It looks cool, but does it work?" the two statements are, therefore, not the same.

[@00lack]

When the function is an art project, the form is the function?

[@kyoopihd]

Right - I feel like it was only weeks ago that Martin was highlighting inspiration from the industrial revolution. I'm getting whiplash here!

[@harmonic5107]

The function isn't "play the drums" the function is "be a sculpture that just happens to play music" The machine is as much a work of art as the music is. So form as others have said, *is* function.

[@Ishbosheth.]

Personally, I think the single pivot looks much better (and as another commenter mentioned, is easier to predict)

[@RickLaBanca]

In a large venue I wonder how much the movement would really show. Also what about a flash of light on hit.

[@BamaRailfan]

All these comments complaining.. I'm happy to see Martin embrace his artistry and combine it with his engineering knowledge. How will it end? Who knows. He's genuinely enjoying it now ant thats what matters!

[@justinnaramor6050]

They do nothing even remotely beneficial by complaining. That does not do any sort of beneficial service. Instead of complaining these people should really try to understand truly what Martin's doing here. This design approach has a better chance at success than the previous one, the one that lead to the MMX not working. What made the MMX fail had nothing to do with the feature set, anyone saying that was the feature set that made MMX fail is just speaking a bunch of false bullshit.

[@br52685]

@@justinnaramor6050Oerhaos you should read a bit more carefully. NOBODY has ever said that the first attempt failed because of too many features.

[@12flare]

I remember a time when Martin said: "The word 'tight' is essential! Because if there was one wish that I could have for a MM3 it would (be) that we would play tight music." 😅

[@piokul]

It was several months of the word "tight" being the most often repeated word in each video 😅😅😅

[@Rex-zs9jd]

I understand why he was onto the whole millisecond-perfect timing stuff because he wanted the machine to be as tight as possible once inconsistencies from all the other parts of the machine are added, but this seems to far in the other direction

[@superdude3112]

And you all hated that by being tight, it lost its soul and humanity. So what side do the commenters stand on? Tightness and perfection, or art and soul?

[@piokul]

@@superdude3112 You do realize there is no such thing as a side commenters stand on? You do know that commenters are a group of people that would happily pull this project in all possible directions. And whatever happens some subgroup will always complain? And here no one was even complaining. Just sharing memories of a completely different phase with a completely different vibe. No need to be defensive.

[@extracted225]

@@superdude3112 Didn't hate that at all. I do hate this current bullshit though

[@nathaliea_girl4616]

0:51 FORM FROM FUNCTION!!!! There is no way you can play tight music with a moving drum!!! NO WAYYY

[@PepijnHazelhof]

the first hit of the double hits is the most important, I guess the world tour will be in 2040 or later

[@alexflohr1453]

I love this! I'm so glad you are back on your kinetic fingers arc. Don't compromise your vision and we'll be here when you go on tour.

[@industrialvectors]

Unless you are using mechanical linkages you will get timing issues as the next marble may hit the drum at a different position. You may introduce enough play that you won't catch those marbles. Also, it starts looking like you're looking into version 1.25.0 features but you have yet to get version 0.1.0 that validates all your SINE QUA NON requirements.

[@industrialvectors]

I'll add that if you go from slow tempo to fast, your position will go from the highest to the lowest and you will have a delay between the drums and the other instruments. You could account for that, but that seems over engineered.

[@kaisersozeh7845]

For everyone pointing at the feature creep, it does hugely add to the kinetic performance of the machine - fills will look amazing. Context, we're talking about single hits and flams, the functionality of repeated evenly spaced pulses on the same drum is met elsewhere, it just needs to return to a fixed position in a useable period. Fills just don't happen often enough for a timed second hit to be a problem, if you have enough toms, or matched pairs (stage left and right?). I would avoid the literal chaos of two pivots, but if you can get it simple and consistent, it looks relatively easy to implement for a big payoff in the function as a piece of art Maybe this won't survive an oncoming cull of features crept, but I can see his reasoning and I think he is right.

[@ThatSockmonkey]

Well said.

[@Mutaburasaurus]

Timing is only one problem. There is also the problem of unpredictable marble bounces, for example.

[@trevorhaddox6884]

Moving drums adds way more potential for marbles to miss the return funnels. Bad idea.

[@akaHarvesteR]

​@@Mutaburasaurusbased on the new layout he had in the stage mock-up, I think the marbles will all just fall into a large collection trough in front of the whole machine. I don't think he's trying to get them to fall into small funnels anymore.... Hopefully.

[@superjugy]

MOOOOOM, He is tinkering again!

[@almosthuman4457]

I respect the fact that you don't take sponsors. I also really hope you take sponsors that will help you with tools and hardware for the projects.

[@ArtemisMalak]

I am so glad to see how happy Martin is working to make MM3 both artistic and mechanical and not restrict himself in the creative process. Once MM3 is done, I hope the tour will find its way to the US. I'm definitely ready to see it live.😄

[@cutieowl347]

That's what I've been thinking recently too. He seems so happy and creative rather than perfectionistic ☺️

[@mrbfox1775]

There will never be a marble machine.

[@MrDoctorDave]

I'm losing faith he will ever finish and go on tour

[@thomasbecker9676]

Lol, you haven't yet?

[@christianvitroler5289]

That's not his real plan. He found out that he can make a LOT more money from his gullible fans.

[@mrbfox1775]

He is full on grifter. His goal is the KZbin revenue.

[@markhamilton6065]

When is he going to start…. Hire someone to finish this document and start building!

[@gregsmithy1986]

Feature creep is back then.

[@sky0kast0]

And the possibility to have to spend more to get more springs just in case they break easily during shipping or during the show itself

[@edumorales9090]

That’s the best type of feature !

[@giantpunda2911]

He's making the same mistake as last time

[@fredrikjohansson]

the project videos are so fun, interesting and pleasant! And Martin is motivated and happy! Could not have been better!!

[@grymkaft]

Back? Never gone...

[@23wrks39]

At some point you have to admit that the process is more important to you than the end product... And deadline.

[@zennycool]

Martin hates marbles hitting the floor, but still makes a marble trampoline

[@valkyrie283]

It’s really awesome to see Martin back to tinkering and enjoying what he’s planning ☺️

[@deisum]

At least he's honest that it will take him 20 years to finish. That's what he said, right?

[@ATOM-vv3xu]

He said he wants to work so long with it but I think he already included the performance time in the 20 year estimate

[@joshcurtis3752]

After all that energy you spent making timing so perfect, this is a step in the wrong direction.

[@SFtheWolf]

I took a step back and looked at this project's years of repeated failures to launch, and I decided that what it really needs is more variables, more moving parts, and a higher chance of breaking. it's okay though because *arrrrrt*. engineers don't understand *arrrrrt*.

[@Rex-zs9jd]

yeah I fear the MM3 may now suffer the same fate as MMX

[@imdadirtydan]

If the project isn’t inspiring to him he isn’t doing it, that’s the bottom line, and if having the project happen at all comes at the cost of not adhering to a minimalist perfectionism from an engineering sense, I’m perfectly OK with that.

[@SFtheWolf]

@@imdadirtydan it's not going to happen at all with him working like this. you know as an artist and engineer myself the false dichotomy people keep drawing in these comments really irritates me. everyone's like "the critics are all just fun haters who don't believe in DREAMS". it has nothing to do with inspiration, he's faffing about aimlessly in his shop making youtube content. saying that any different way of working must be "minimalist perfectionism" is just delusional. I really worry about how many young creatives he's imparting terrible self-destructive habits to. he can only do this because he's part of the idle rich and accountable to nobody.

[@imdadirtydan]

@@SFtheWolf the monologue about how everyone else, young creatives, and Martin the "idle rich" doing his own project are the problem speaks more to you than it does anything else. Its not a false dichotomy, the form vs. function is real, and where Martin wants to be on that spectrum to create the machine he wants is his decision. At the end of the day its an art project with engineering requirements, and an artist learning to engage in engineering practices to help with that art project. And then suddenly you villainize the artist because he's not doing the project the way you would want him to.

[@SFtheWolf]

@@imdadirtydan I'm not trying to villainize him, I'm not saying he's being immoral, I'm criticizing the world view and the aimless showmanship masquerading as something technical. he can do what he wants. I was rooting for him back when I thought he was serious. but I'm stating what's obvious to anyone who hasn't emotionally bought into his brand image.

[@startrek0336]

To all those people complaining about feature creep: he does one important thing differently than with the MMX. He prototypes, which enables him to fine tune things before doing it on big expensive machine with custom made parts.

[@Krmpfpks]

It’s funny how all his engineering methodology has lead him to where he was at the very beginning 😂

[@Cuperino]

That looks like so much fun, but don’t forget about your well-being. Programming the drums considering delays between marbles could make your life so much more difficult.

[@maartenvandervalk6062]

So what about when you want faster notes and the drum has not reset yet before the next marble?

[@imdadirtydan]

He already addressed that in the video very specifically, it’s also worth noting that he can account for the position of the drum somewhat with the variable programming pin system

[@karolecki4137]

I'm happy that Martin abbandoned his obssesion with impeccable timing, and is willing to sacrifice it for some cool factor!

[@asherbernardi]

I don't know why everyone thinks this is inconsistent with his earlier emphasis on tight music... even if there's a slight delay on a double marble hit, the tempo of the music will remain consistent. It won't be slowing down and speeding up throughout the song. There will just be some notes that don't hit exactly on a beat, and the design requirement of having an adjustable lever motion will allow Wintergaten to make sure the music sounds good.

[@Mutaburasaurus]

But wasn't that the exact thing he wanted to avoid, during his "tight music phase"? Marbles hitting just slightly off-beat?

[@asherbernardi]

@Mutaburasaurus that's not what I remember. My understanding was he was worried about the tempo, basically the consistent rotational speed of the flywheel, because he wanted to a whole band to olay along side it and having vaoable tempos would make that impossible. What I remember is he was very concerned with getting the marbles to drop consistently. Now that that problem is solved, he can afford to have a little wiggle room around the base tempo. I'll add that it could make the machine sound a little more organic, like he was trying to do with the shakers a few weeks ago.

[@Vastafari34]

Please keep us updated on that progress chart. That's awesome to see! You're quite the role model.

[@jkell42]

0:52 kinetic fingers anyone?

[@Mark_LaCroix]

"Are we compromising the music timing? Yes we are." I've never been more proud of Martin 😆. But also, he's never been more predictable.

[@torgado]

LOVE that you're getting back to FUN! That's where passion is born. Best quote of the day from you, "I spent 3 years trying to get timing below 2ms... I don't care about that anymore because I want the drum to move!' With a big sh*t eating grin on your face no less. So, you're either getting back to passion or having a bipolar moment. I like this version of you better! It will result in better music coming from your passion-self vs. your engineering-self. Both are valuable, but we'd rather listen to passion than precision.

[@THarSul]

if you revisit this, try putting the hinge point for the drum on the other side of the block, at the top instead of at the bottom, so that rather than tipping forward, the drum moves downward in a more linear way, with most of the downward motion coming from the rear pivot, with the forward pivot allowing the head of the drum to stay level to the ground

[@Dallemations]

We’re recreating Pipe Dream!

[@seandunbar6427]

we are already working against ourselves here. Fantastic, ready for 4 more years of videos. Maybe the world tour can just be like a collection of youtube snippets with some kind of corporate music backing.

[@victorcercasin]

Sure! Now the angle of the drum's surface is variable and the marble's path is completely unpredictable

[@winebird8952]

3:12 I’m so happy to hear that you have given up the obsession with timing. Most people don’t hear sloppy music, they just dance!!!

[@AL-dj5qf]

Marbles on the floor again 👍👍👍👍👍

[@Engineezy]

By far the most fun part in any project is the planning stage! Also I would argue it’s never to early to prototype 😂

[@Engineezy]

Also thanks so much for the shoutout! So relateable

[@viniciuscollaco]

Today is 1st April? Seem's like.

[@Smeagol44]

This looks really awesome. At this point, the only thing that worries me at all, is that the marble machine doesn't look like a machine at all, but more like a system of machines that plays instruments and somehow runs on marbles. What I loved about the MM1 and the MMX, was the fact that the whole machine was entirely inside this weird gear-filled cabinet. It felt like a machine, like a giant typewriter. You never knew what lever was going to do what, where marbles were going or where they were going to show up from. Or even how the whole contraption worked at all. It wasn't just awe and wonder, it was magic. I must admit, I'm not feeling the same way with the (current) design of the MM3. Everything feels disconnected, separated, isolated, and just controlled remotely. I really hope that changes in the future.

[@musicfromakido]

Feels like we’ve been here before…

[@OliviaSNava]

About the sound matching the movement: the short arm movement seems like the initial hit for the drum, and the long arm movement seems like the ringing of the drum.

[@myrmidonprogress5423]

Martin.... You know better. Finish the marble machine first, then make the bouncing drum machine

[@ast_rsk]

The sympathetic movement will be key to taking this machine to the next level as a stage show production.

[@MultiAndAnd]

People from 30 meters away wont see it. They would hear the delay tho...

[@danneliu]

@Wintergatan maby look into RC truck suspension? I think you need dampeners for your springs. There you have lots of different springs and adjustable dampeners to play with 🙂

[@reggiep75]

My grandkids might be born before the gigs happen. My daughter is 12 years old. 😂😉😘👌

[@Krmpfpks]

8:40 😂😂😂 I love Martin. This is so much fun.

[@lmao4982]

I think you should have one carefully tuned pivot point or some other design that lets it depress straight down. i think the characteristics of the spring matter a lot too, you want it to pull back hard enough to be quick, but it has to be loose enough in the beginning to not hamper the visual effect. stronger spring constant, longer relaxed state i guess. also some kind of padding to stop it bouncing when it comes back to it's starting position