Dubious Legality of the Emancipation Proclamation

[@chrisharper80]

This is an absolutely brilliant scene. Lincoln quietly whittling while they gripe at him is funny as hell. Then he interrupts mid-sentence and tells a funny story that doesn't seem entirely germane to the subject. He laughs at the punchlines before he even says them. Then he proceeds to conduct a complex legal debate against himself for 4 minutes, arguing every nuance of the law and making the arguments of two opposing sides, as though he is actually 2 lawyers making arguments in front of a judge. After a lull and another self-depricating joke, he pronounces his ruling and demands the support of the cabinet. In one scene, he acts as proxy for the attorneys from both sides, then the judge and ultimately transitions to executive. The way he navigated the legal ambiguity and tenuousness of the situation is represented perfectly in this one scene.

[@JRobbySh]

Indeed.

[@bcdside]

Well said!

[@sherriecaskie3111]

Lincoln had the ability to view his actions from a "third" persons point of view. That is an admirable trait, in which few people can imagine or be willing to do.

[@edjones9235]

The man was a genius and a champion of freedom who knew how to play the game.

[@dirdib69]

"No one has ever lived who knows better than you the proper placement of footfalls on treacherous paths." Mary is, in her way, in awe of her husband. She talks later about how people will "marvel" at him, and that they should.

[@kkroeger5868]

I can't imagine having a president this morally clear and dedicated to higher goals...

[@ambrosephill9]

Really higher goals, have you seen the crime statistics in our major cities and who is committing them?

[@adamwallenfang]

​@ambrosephill9 You seem to be implying that abolishing slavery was a bad thing. Besides being an extremely minority position in the 21st Century it's also an inadvertent admission that the war was indeed about slavery.

[@Mattribute]

The movie character is quite different from the reality. The real man was a horrible person and president. Maybe even worse than Millard Filmore.

[@ambrosephill9]

@@adamwallenfang I don't really care if people think that the war was over slavery. It does not matter. Slavery was legal. The North never boycotted any of the crops produced in the South. The North just seemed to love Southern cotton, rice, sugar, tobacco, alcohol, indigo, etc...... If they had a problem with slavery. They should have boycott the South. In fact if the North had that much of a problem over slavery the should have kick the South out of the Union. That would have solved the problem.

[@662wc5]

@@Mattribute Thank you for giving us such a fine example of confirmation bias in action

[@dirdib69]

I love how Lincoln appears to be evading the question and then answers the question fully, from every angle. An extremely intelligent but practical man, he's thought about the question quite a lot.

[@michaelreidperry3256]

Thank you, Mr. Day-Lewis, for playing our president so brilliantly and honorably.

[@fencingperson]

Memorize this real quick: Abraham Lincoln: Back when I rode the legal circuit in Illinois, I defended a woman from Metmora named Melissa Goings, 77 years-old. They said she murdered her husband, he was 83. He was choking her and she grabbed a-hold of a stick of firewood and fractured his skull and he died. In his will he wrote: 'I suspect she has killed me. If I get over it, I will have revenge.' No one was keen to see her convicted, he was that kind of husband. I asked the prosecuting attorney if I might have a short conference with my client. And she and I went into a room in the courthouse, but I alone emerged. The window in the room was found to be wide open. It was believed the old lady may have climbed out of it. I told the bailiff right before. I left her in the room she asked me where she could get a good drink of water, and I told her Tennessee. Mrs. Goings was seen no more in Metamora. Enough justice had been done; they even forgave the bondsman her bail. John Usher: I'm afraid I don't see... Abraham Lincoln: I decided that the Constitution gives me war powers, but no one knows just exactly what those powers are. Some say they don't exist. I don't know. I decided I needed them to exist to uphold my oath to protect the Constitution, which I decided meant that I could take the rebel's slaves from them as property confiscated in war. That might recommend to suspicion that I agree with the rebs that their slaves are property in the first place. Of course I don't, never have, I'm glad to see any man free, and if calling a man property, or war contraband, does the trick... Why I caught at the opportunity. Now here's where it gets truly slippery. I use the law allowing for the seizure of property in a war knowing it applies only to the property of governments and citizens of belligerent nations. But the South ain't a nation, that's why I can't negotiate with'em. If in fact the Negroes are property according to law, have I the right to take the rebels' property from 'em, if I insist they're rebels only, and not citizens of a belligerent country? And slipperier still: I maintain it ain't our actual Southern states in rebellion but only the rebels living in those states, the laws of which states remain in force. The laws of which states remain in force. That means, that since it's states' laws that determine whether Negroes can be sold as slaves, as property - the Federal government doesn't have a say in that, least not yet then Negroes in those states are slaves, hence property, hence my war powers allow me to confiscate'em as such. So I confiscated 'em. But if I'm a respecter of states' laws, how then can I legally free'em with my Proclamation, as I done, unless I'm cancelling states' laws? I felt the war demanded it; my oath demanded it; I felt right with myself; and I hoped it was legal to do it, I'm hoping still. Two years ago I proclaimed these people emancipated - "then, hence forward and forever free."But let's say the courts decide I had no authority to do it. They might well decide that. Say there's no amendment abolishing slavery. Say it's after the war, and I can no longer use my war powers to just ignore the courts' decisions, like I sometimes felt I had to do. Might those people I freed be ordered back into slavery? That's why I'd like to get the Thirteenth Amendment through the House, and on its way to ratification by the states, wrap the whole slavery thing up, forever and aye. As soon as I'm able. Now. End of this month. And I'd like you to stand behind me. Like my cabinet's most always done. (Beat). As the preacher said, I could write shorter sermons, but once I start I get too lazy to stop. DDL is amazing.

[@foxwolf7107]

WOW

[@MickeyFlipper]

Just a slight emendation. “Why cod at the opportunity.”

[@marshalironsides8777]

Well done.

[@RobertWF42]

Nah, the script is written down on the papers in front of him. :-)

[@fencingperson]

@@RobertWF42 Oh yeah, it could be hidden behind the pile after the 2:11 cut. Before that, he certainly memorized the first section. The rest...he does looks down at the desk just often enough.

[@abehambino]

What I loved the most about this movie was its exploration of the legalities and politics behind the Civil War. These days the complexities and nuances are glossed over. I agree, that given the subject matter of dealing with freeing an oppressed people, it’s hard to question the morality, but very few people today understand just how illegal, unenforceable, unconstitutional, and downright dangerously abusive of executive authority it was. This is simply one of the best legal lectures ever put to film.

[@IggyTthunders]

"This is simply one of the best legal lectures ever put to film." Watch John Adams debate the Declaration of Independence w/ John Dickinson. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nnSlmIyDh6eYY68 kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIKrnHqGjbJ2i5o Now *that* was debating an illegal and dangerous political maneuver; and that was just the manifesto of the States declaring independence.

[@sherriecaskie3111]

@Doug Bevins Yet again well writ! Regardless, of my personal reverence for A. Lincoln. I'm compelled to ask you if he made any actions that could've been deemed impeachable?

[@StrategicWealthLLC]

@Doug Bevins - I'm amused at your self-righteous rant. Your comment about the Greeks doesn't come close to addressing the tensions between the authority of the federal government and state governments in Lincoln's era...especially prior to the 14th amendment which completely changed the game. You have not addressed - AT ALL - how a federal executive had the authority to overturn a state's laws while simultaneously claiming that those states were not in resurrection against the federal government. As the actors in that clip discussed, while it could reasonably be argued that freeing slaves DURING THE WAR (against whom?) was justified (using the logic you expressed), there was every reason to believe those freed men and women would be re-enslaved after the war using the logic expressed in the clip. And the "you know, YOUR white supremacy" comment was the comment of a jackass.

[@StrategicWealthLLC]

Doug Bevins - You may continue to copy and paste as you did before but, like before, your points are not addressing the points brought up in the clip. That is so obvious that it borders on the ridiculous.

[@StrategicWealthLLC]

Doug Bevins - No, you didn’t.

[@mikecoles6602]

I think this is one of the best 6+ minutes of acting by one individual in movie history. Just my opinion. There's humor, anger and a sense of uneasiness all rolled into that scene. Lewis did a 5 star ⭐ performance as Lincoln.

[@dougdouglas3945]

100% agreement!

[@petermancini593]

Brilliant scene. Tony Kushner hit this out of the park.

[@mygoogleemail2063]

Lincoln knew when to wait. He also knew when to act. "Listen boys, I'll tell you why this needs to happen but make no mistake this is going to happen"

[@mikevaldez7684]

Willwork 4 XRP, Sounds like Biden right now with the Relief package he's proposing...I love it

[@mygoogleemail2063]

@@mikevaldez7684 don’t make me sick. Biden is a disgusting idiot.

[@dougdouglas3945]

LoL, exactly

[@peterkierst2744]

This is artistry of a very high level. The writing captures much of subtly and sophistication of Lincoln's thinking, the performance of Lewis captures that, as well as Lincoln's personality as described by people who knew him, in a completely authentic way, and the direction and performance of the other actors creates a thoroughly realistic, almost jarringly authentic, sense of what being in a room full of people talking about something important is actually like.

[@johnschuh8616]

That Lincoln could have let an old lady get away with murder rings true, for both judge and jury would have regarded his action as equitable, as themselves being overruled by a higher court, or as the old lady having been pardoned by executive action.

[@TomKaren94]

Daniel Day Lewis may very well be the greatest actor of all time.

[@dougdouglas3945]

I agree. I'm hard-pressed to think of a second best actor that has anywhere near his talent

[@dougdouglas3945]

Hear, hear

[@notd0ll109]

Nah he is.

[@michaelreidperry3256]

No doubt.

[@AttilatheNun-xv6kc]

It's hard to think of an actor whose range of technical and artistic skills is superior to his.

[@dkupke]

This scene embodies why I think Lincoln was one of, if not the best and most capable presidents we’ve had. The constitution does grant the executive office expanded powers in times of crisis, and the situation Lincoln walked into was absolutely a crisis. Problem was that because they’d never been invoked before, no one really knew what they were so he had to wing it and improvise as he went along. And I don’t think anyone could have done better.

[@johanneshjortshj8646]

I always come back to this scene for some reason.

[@jacobcorcho2518]

Because humanity. What it is like to be a human that doesn't hate others for the color of their skin or where they come from.

[@akasmarty2003]

Lincoln was a genius. Way ahead of his time. RIP Abe

[@kayvan671]

He sure knew how the Game worked. He was a political genius indeed.

[@collinsagyeman6131]

I love how Stanton is just sitting there stone faced. Not laughing at any of the jokes

[@nonsense1558]

Stanton was known as a serious, no nonsense man. He was exactly the man Lincoln needed to run the War Department!

[@bcdside]

In the immediate chaos after Lincoln was shot, Stanton ran the country, no question (Seward and his son Frederick had both been injured and nearly killed that same night). Even after Johnson was sworn in the morning of April 15th, it was Stanton who was pulling most of the levers of power.

[@AbeBSea]

Stanton does that to this day.

[@jguitar151]

Classic Stanton

[@mikevaldez7684]

@@bcdside It has been speculated that Staunton was at the top of the plan to assassinate Lincoln

[@Spongebrain97]

I love how after his eloquent monologue, this other guy seemingly not listening or understanding, just labels Lincoln a tyrant by twisting meanings of the law. And Lincoln is just like, "Well, I gave the people a year and a half to consider what I did, and they reelected me so there."

[@johnschuh8616]

Lincoln is NOT a sophist.

[@siege2218]

One of the best written, most engaging scenes I've ever watched. Tony Kushner + Daniel Day Lewis = Magic

[@benkeel2966]

Daniel is so amazing. This performance is profound and epic. Like Lincoln himself, Daniel is passionate and has embraced this character with his heart. This is why he retired. He went out on top. GOAT

[@yorktown99]

It's not stated in this scene (yet is stated elsewhere in the film), but Lincoln wants the Amendment passed by Congress before the war ends. He understood that if the war ended first, the Amendment might not pass at all, either because of the readmission of the Confederates or from Northerners' desire to change as little as possible.

[@B2Roland]

It makes a lot of sense to pass the amendment with the southerners not at the table in Congress and begin reconstruction with a 'clean slate' and with the issue of slavery done and settled.

[@662wc5]

Did you watch this scene? Watch it, again if necessary. It's absolutely stated in several ways throughout this scene that the 13th A has to happen before the war ends, such where he and others in the room explain that the EP was a war measure and won't stand up after the war is over, so the 13th A is needed before that happens. It's also stated again where holds up a pen and says he wants to sign the 13th A on February 1st (in 1865, in other words, before the war ends). It's what the entire scene was about.

[@ijunkie]

Story telling is the most important art a lawyer must master

[@pendragon0905]

Can't agree more

[@lenharper8502]

It’s amazing how much thought went into his analysis. Pondering benefits, risk and morality and weighing those data points against the tools available to the government. I like how the movie depicted Lincoln’s decision making process and the explanation behind it.

[@jacklandaupresents]

Lincoln was 5 steps ahead in the art of legalities.

[@lenharper8502]

@@jacklandaupresents I agree. In my view, this scene is an excellent example of critical thinking and planning.

[@dougdouglas3945]

Well said, couldn't agree more. Not only having that thought process but then being able to explain the process in an understandable way.

[@662wc5]

It's why Lincoln aged so noticeably in five years. He was only 56 in 1865 but he looked like a man in his 70s.

[@johnschuh8616]

Lincoln carried Euclid around with him as he rode the circuit. He was a great logician.

[@mikegalvin4843]

I remember being a young child in school and asking my 2nd grade teacher, What did Lincoln do that was so Great? She told us that he had saved the Union. This movie certainly helped show me, years later, the conflicts within his party and himself. I had read the books, but they didn't show the human side of the man. Arguably one of the best performances by an actor ever done. This scene and its roller coaster of emotions was a big part of it.

[@iana3892]

I found the voice choice strange at first. Today, I cannot imagine Lincoln’s voice as anything but this: soft but strict southerner with a tinge of elderly age and an overall tone of wise. Daniel Day Lewis nailed it, from before the front to after the end, even if I couldn’t understand it then. I truly can’t imagine Lincoln any other way now, I can see why Daniel had said that this was one of the few characters he has performed whom he truly loved. It’s hard not to.

[@pyromania1018]

The Emancipation Proclamation was a political gesture that gave the UK and France an excuse to not get involved in the war after the battle of Antietam (which Union propaganda painted as a "second Zama") made them question the Confederacy's chances of victory. That it brought the subject of abolishing slavery to the forefront made supporting the rebels (who didn't even try to hide that protecting slavery was their reason for rebelling in the first place) politically unthinkable for two nations where slavery was illegal (and hated by the working class), as did the Union's possession of a crop that both nations considered far more valuable than cotton: grain.

[@moblinmajorgeneral]

And after helping the Ottomans win the Crimean War, Turkish cotton became significantly cheaper in the short term, so they could afford to cut the South loose and not lose money on textiles.

[@joaoascencao575]

That was certainly a big reason following the summer of 1862. I would just say that at this point in 1865 Lincoln's viewpoint on slavery as it pertains to the war had changed a lot and it became almost a spiritual perspective. Lincoln came to believe that the bloodshed and suffering of the war were to atone for the sins of slavery and that there was now virtually no distinguish between the ending of the war and the ending of the institution of slavery

[@662wc5]

Yes, the EP had several purposes and was an excellent tactical move. Acting as a restraint on European involvement was just one of those purposes. Lincoln had such great intuition about leading public opinion along while being careful to not get too far out in front of it. He if lost the border states or got tossed out of office by the voters in '64, the whole effort and sacrifice would have been moot. It was an incredible balancing act.

[@SomeFreakingCactus]

Besides: The South’s greatest natural resource of the time was cotton, of which Egypt was able to produce a fair quantity.

[@blueconverse87]

I don’t know if the black and white was intentional, but it gave the scene a good Turner Classic Movies feel.

[@adamwallenfang]

It was intentional...but to avoid copyright infringement.

[@howardlovecraft750]

After this movie was made it became an instant classic, one that'll be watched over and over again for years to come.

[@64MDW]

He who accepts slavery as an institution should be willing to have himself and his own family wear the chains and be sold like cattle at the whim of his owner.

[@scottloar]

The man Lincoln did have powerful argument and subtle reasoning.

[@NealX_Gaming]

You know what else was dubiously legal? The Declaration of Independence.

[@ProjectEkerTest33]

That wasn't dubious at all. It was flat out illegal by British law but then illegal isn't the same thing as unjust

[@major_kukri2430]

​@@ProjectEkerTest33eloquently said.

[@whyme3904]

The other actors listening to Daniel were like....man hes good

[@007ndc]

In a historical context just about every man in the room ran for the presidential nomination in 1860 against Lincoln himself. Their egos made them think they were better than he was.

[@benn454]

@@007ndc And Lincoln's brilliance in appointing them to his Cabinet to both assuage hurt egos and enable him to keep an eye on his political rivals was a stroke of genius.

[@RMB42]

@@benn454 Keep your friends close and your enemies closer

[@johnpitchlynn9341]

There is no dubiousness in Lincoln's policy. The Constitution and his oath gave him the authority to do what he did during wartime. He wasn't the first President to exercise these powers nor was he the last. God bless Abraham Lincoln.

[@mightymartianca]

Whether true or not, without the amendment once the war was over, it would become a question of states rights.

[@chrisholmes6132]

He does such a good job of acting that he makes you forget that its acting. Its like you're watching Lincoln himself

[@dougdouglas3945]

True that! Get chills watching and listening to that scene

[@christianrubert126]

Wish they had VHS back in 1865 closest well get

[@pedrozaragoza2253]

God bless Abraham Lincoln.

[@DoorknobHead]

Without people feeling a justified god given superiority over other people, would there have been slavery during this time of U.S. History? Seems this god character likes to play both sides.

[@jasonhayden5077]

@@DoorknobHead god had given free will. What you do with it will be deemed at judgement day.

[@mism847]

Tribe god Kanahaah bless Abraham Lincoln

[@palmerlp]

Spielberg is a master of every filmmaking technique known to man and a few he invented himself, but in this scene he shows that with a great actor sometimes the slow push-in is all you need

[@tomrockhill8634]

I still can't get over how much he looks like Lincoln.

[@mickeyj5922]

Didn't know that there were hidden cameras in 1865 hot damn.

[@dougdouglas3945]

Dude, they are EVERYWHERE!

[@christophercaldwell6888]

Interesting ... early cameras DID exist at the time of the American Civil War (and slightly before), called "Daguerreotypes". We actually have stills of Lincoln. Alas, not very good for spying: Huge, noisy (loud flash required) and STINKY (developing chemicals). About as subtle as a tank. And of course, totally unsuitable for taking moving pictures or sound track. Still, people being people, you just KNOW somebody tried to use one of these things surreptitiously!

[@jacobcorcho2518]

They needed to get all those angles baby ​@@dougdouglas3945

[@joliecide]

This was an excellent explanation of why the 13th was needed in the first place.

[@RakeeshJ4]

‘Version of cheap labor’. Well that’s certainly one way to refer to human slavery.

[@Eazy-ERyder]

The Emancipation Proclamation was the most UNpopular of our Great president's decisions, and also tbe best thing that could have EVER happened to this country.

[@carrickrichards2457]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

[@daviddelaet8116]

Lincoln was the best lawyer in our history.

[@dragonchr15]

This is what happens when you surround yourself with men who hate your guts, but still want the same ultimate goal....

[@johnfinck288]

It's cliche at this point to say Daniel Day Lewis is a great actor, but, wow, he is fantastic here. I've seen dozens of actors play Lincoln in films and television shows. Most are cartoonish and hammy. A few, notably Henry Fonda, managed a fairly good performance. Only Lewis has ever risen above the hat, and the beard, and the weight of history, and found an authentic human portrayal that was neither melodramatic, saintly, nor corny. Lincoln was a great man, but he WAS a man, and Daniel Day Lewis brought him to life in this film - a remarkable performance by a truly great actor.

[@Krebssssssss]

“I knew the people would tell me. I gave them a year-and-a-half to think about it, and they re-elected me.” That’s what a leader does. You stand on principle, and you LEAD. Make your case as clear, as frequent, and as concise as possible, carry out your agenda, and let your people make their decision. Now days, politicians look at the polling, or get hung up on a few holdouts in Congress and throw their hands up and go, “Whelp, nothing we can do.” The leaders go out and get the votes. They don’t wait for the votes to come to them. Our leaders these days are cowards only concerned with their titles and positions.

[@mikevaldez7684]

Slavery was not the South's "version" of our "cheap labor", as Adam Wall tries to state here in the description; it was one of the greatest human injustices of all time.

[@jeffmorin5867]

calm down there short pants.

[@michaelterrell5061]

@@jeffmorin5867 He’s correct though.

[@arcade85_]

slavery is ubiquitous throughout human history. All living humans today are descendants of slaves, as well as descendants of slave owners. Slavery predates civilization.

[@adamwallenfang]

Yah, I didn't actually mean to glorify slavery with that comment but merely draw a comparison. In fact depending on your outlook, slavery might actually be more expensive since the "employer" has to actually cover a minimum amount of food, clothing, and shelter, but that's actually one of the South's common arguments against the Union and I'd prefer not to clothe myself in the rhetoric of slavers and traitors.

[@mightymartianca]

@@adamwallenfang The problems with slavery had been known since the days of the late Roman Republic, where the millions of people who had moved into Rome were largely underemployed, requiring one of the world's first mass social services program, and much of that had to do with the wealthy and merchants relying on slave labor, which was cheaper and with the growth of Rome's power and conquests, seemingly have those people an endless supply of cheap indentured labor.

[@ronditchen6664]

You know you always hear about Einstein and Tesla on all these other scientist great men that they said wer geniuses Abraham Lincoln was a genius he was a very very smart man blows me away about some of the things he's wrote and some of the things people's wrote about things he said and did was so far ahead of his time just a great great man

[@said11]

Lincoln like Einstein, I don’t know about Tesla were INTP’s on MBTI scale., just like myself. Lincoln was giant of a genius and intellect. He understood that in order to keep the United States together and strong well into the future and not splinter off and eventually be concurred by another country like Spain, Portugal or Germany. The demonic practice of slavery had to be abolished in perpetuity. Hate for another race is a cancer that rots from within. If America had fractured permanently, could we have fought and won WW1, could have defeated Hitler and the Nazi weakened, probably not. We face this same cancer in 2020. How many Americans will side with “the better angels of our nature”? Certainly not the on sitting in the Whitehouse right now. He’s not even a real Republican. Not a Democrat but a deranged demagogue.

[@Bulacanos]

Jim Crow really took on the 13th for another century

[@dougdouglas3945]

LoL

[@dclark142002]

This is the best scene in Lincoln, IMO. A very clear and direct assessment of the legality of the Emancipation Proclamation...and also a very good assessment of why legality and morality are not always the same thing. Laws are useful guides, but they are also the servants of their corrupt masters. Where the law is obviously confused...someone must take it upon themselves to deliver meaningful and positive change...and that prerogative by design in our system lies with the legislature. Executive action may be of use in emergency...but the judicial checks on it are such that the only real power to effect justice lies with the people and by extension their legislative representatives. Obama's executive orders were a timid step in the right direction, but unfortunately he did nothing to garner support in the legislature for the just cause he had begun...i.e. the roll back and dismantling of the absurd immigration rules and system we have established since the late 19th century. The people repudiated his efforts and now we have an administration attempting to enforce the laws without providing the due process services required by those laws. If only we would back up and divorce ourselves from the silly requirement to be 'authorized' to work...this whole problem could be solved...and millions outside of the protection of law would then be protected. Of course, that would mean substantial changes to our welfare system...

[@alalalala57]

Obama also, unlike Lincoln, had a largely opposition Congress.

[@dclark142002]

@@alalalala57, doesnt mean much. The art of politics is getting people to support your proposals. Relying solely on brute force party strength is evidence of a weak politician. I place most of the blame for our broken immigration system on the legislatures inability to move beyond selfish 'party-only' legislation. I consider both the GOP and Democrats to be failures and active hinderances to good government for the people. The sooner we get rid of these two evil groups, the better.

[@alalalala57]

@@dclark142002 "doesn't mean much". Tell that to Lincoln. Why is it then such a hurdle for him to pass the 13th amendment _after_ a Confederate peace if he doesn't fear the former-South reps and moderates of his own party voting down any thing remotely like it in Congress? The two parties have not been any more or less functional now then they were back during the Civil War era. Its just none of were born then to remember the shit show.

[@dclark142002]

@@alalalala57, and yet Lincoln worked to get Democrats on his side. Did Obama? Lincoln appointed people that hated him to positions of authority...sacrificing some of his goals for the goal of the amendment. Did Obama? People like to blame opposition for the failure of their goal...to which I ask...what did you do to change the opposition? All either party says right now to that is...nothing. They just blame the other party rather than actually working at politics to get something done. I refuse to accept the excuse anymore. All it indicates is the lack of competence by the person making excuses at politicking legialation.

[@parkergroseclose6956]

@@dclark142002 Mitch McConnell literally bragged about how he would not let a single bill pass while Obama was president. Looking at the Republicans now, its amazing Obama did anything.

[@davidlawrence3645]

THE best scene in a movie of many best scenes. Lewis was masterful. The script was masterful. I doubt that such a movie could be made today. There are not, after all, any Marvel comic book characters in it.

[@amlosaxon1773]

So historically authentic for the guy who uploaded this video to record it in 1865.

[@dougdouglas3945]

...that is why it's in black & white, right?

[@stargazer7876]

We will obviously never know what was said during those real times, but damn was that amazing to just dream. What an amazing to put that on film.

[@adamwallenfang]

To me it's weirdly like another Spielberg classic, Jurassic Park. I know we don't know what dinosaurs actually looked or sounded like (in the raptor and T-Rex's case it's very likely they had feathers), but in my mind JP is what they looked and sounded like. I'm clearly not alone as the Rex roar has been recycled several times in other movies featuring one. In a similar way, I know Speilberg condensed and changed conversations and events surrounding passage of the thirteenth ammendment to make things more cinematic, but in MY MIND this movie sort of becomes what actually happened, lol.

[@ctotheb7775]

The look on Secretary Staunton's (Bruce McGill) face throughout this scene is brilliant.

[@footlesskicks1750]

That DDL sure is special

[@nickcara97]

The devil himself doesn't have a scowl quite like Edwin Stanton.

[@wrestlingbear1188]

"Thunder forth, God of War."

[@benn454]

@@wrestlingbear1188 Neptune, shake thy hoary locks!

[@steventorchia3905]

If only we had such an intellect in the White House now.

[@michaeldukes4108]

Steven Torchia ... Laaaame. Easy. Predictable. Can we leave Donald J. Trump out of one comment section, in the name of God?

[@steventorchia3905]

MICHAEL DUKES Trump recently referred to himself as the greatest president in history. I'll let you be the judge.

[@ruthlesshack1279]

@@michaeldukes4108 That orange POS cannot EVER be left out of anything. It must be derided and challenged, along with those who support him, and finally EXPOSED to ALL for being the true racist, narcissist POS that he is and always has been, period! Go ahead, you align yourself with trumpturd and get EXPOSED for being a racist POS traitor!

[@alalalala57]

@@michaeldukes4108 Putting God and Trump in one sentence? Poor taste.

[@abehambino]

If only we had such an intellect in the White House in the last thirty years. Trump is just one in a long line of idiots who have no respect for the Constitution and liberty, and yes, that includes the previous administration.

[@manilajohn0182]

While the Emancipation Proclamation was of dubious legality, it cannot be accurately stated that it was illegal. Lincoln's action tread the line on legality and by doing so raised questions regarding interpretation of then- existing law which had never been answered- because the questions had never before been raised. Taken as a whole. Lincoln's interpretation of Federal and state law at the time was superlative.

[@demibarton4271]

Lincoln (2012) and Steve Jobs (2015) are both movies I enjoy watching. It is the dialogue I think that hooks me. Hours go by very quickly.

[@kewltony]

Here's where it gets slippery

[@dougdouglas3945]

Powerful stuff

[@anthonyburn1010]

Best and most important scene in the film.

[@dougdouglas3945]

100% agreement! That scene explains everything Lincoln has done to that point.

[@neuvocastezero1838]

The only reason that I'm not giving this a thumbs up is because of the possible algorithmic interpretation of a "like" assigned to a video entitled "Dubious Legality of the Emancipation Proclamation".

[@markdudley5656]

A "score" is 20 years. In the Gettysburg address of 1863 when Lincoln said "four score and seven years ago" he was referring to 87 years before (1776). So in the description of this video, "150 score and 2 years" is equal to 3,002 years ago.

[@ThefightingCelt]

... and now you have Donald Trump . The mind boggles .

[@yavehsuarez9392]

He was a Republican

[@mitsumikyoya8746]

@@yavehsuarez9392 "Today version" of Republican. Totally not the original, Lincoln's Republicans.

[@kevinmorgan_truth]

Doesn't look anything like Abraham Lincoln but still carries on the Republican value of the individual rather than treating people by class or ethnicity. God bless the president of the United States.

[@JRobbySh]

You had Obama,. He boggled MY mind.

[@ruthlesshack1279]

@@JRobbySh Obama was a decent caring human being, completely unlike the real true orange POS that currently STAINS and DESECRATES the White House today. It absolutely take either a corrupt greedy ass or a completely stupid bigoted ass to embrace that Piece of Shit today, bar none!

[@ttrestle]

Imagine being an actor and memorizing all of this

[@christophercaldwell6888]

I cannot distinguish my admiration for the actor from the man he is playing. Would that we had such leadership today.

[@JRobbySh]

Excellent. Ironically, it illustrates the limitations of the law in the midst of a war, But also the usefulness of it in setting boundaries. Lincoln WAS a dictator in the Roman sense. or a tyrant in the Greek sense. But in each case, there was a moral dimension put to the use of force, an aiming for the common good. But that good was only partially achieved, and in the course of that achieving, much good was lost. Force always is unjust to a greater or lesser degree.

[@HappyHauntsMaterialize]

But then again they had to use Force because the South wasn't cooperating and Lincoln was in a precarious situation with the union slave states. Also England was interested in helping the South that made things much worse.

[@abehambino]

@@HappyHauntsMaterialize I agree, with both yourself and the OP. I’ve often been of the opinion that had Lincoln survived the war, he would have faced impeachment in Congress. Not that he would’ve been successfully removed, but once all these things came to light, the urgency of war over, and his political opponents restored to a little power, the discussion would certainly be had, and rightly so. The Congress would essentially ratify his actions by not removing him, as he claimed the people did by re-electing him, but make no mistake, he was treading some dangerous waters and much of what he did, for the noblest of reasons which I wholeheartedly support, we are still feeling the impacts of to this day.

[@jonathancummings6400]

What is "just", or "unjust"? Who decides that? Without forceful leaders throughout history, there would be no "CIVILIZATION". Maybe, not even Neolithic Farming communities. Even hunter and gatherer groups have governments, like Native American and New Guinea tribes having powerful Chieftains, who had powers that enables them to force the tribal members to do things against their free will or be forced out from the tribe or be killed outright, or suffer some horrendous punishment worse than a quick death.

[@thomashiggins9320]

All justice systems, all laws, comprise attempts by flawed human beings to achieve justice, according to their flawed understanding of that concept. No justice system, no set of laws, ever created by human beings has ever approached perfection. They've only ever been the best the people of the time could do, at the time they lived, in the circumstances in which they found themselves. That means, at some point, situations will arise in which the flaws inherent in human systems will become apparent, and indicate a "justice system," as it exists, actually *promotes injustice*. That was the case with the U.S. Constitution, at its inception, that declared black slaves as only 3/5ths of a human being, for the purposes of determining the number of representatives a slave state could have in Congress. The representatives of the Southern States wanted them counted fully for the purposes of representation, as if they were citizens, but also wanted to deny the slaves any of the rights and liberties of citizenry. As part of what was called the "Great Compromise" (division of the Legislative branch into two houses, with members of the Senate set at two per state, and members of the House set according to population), the agreement was never anything more than a kludgy compromise that all the Founding Fathers thought would get altered or improved by amendment, within a few decades (if it even took that long). Based on that horrible compromise, the Dred Scott decision -- and others -- steadily destroyed any vestige of protection for the rights and liberties of black people, in the United States. However, until corrected, that grotesquely injust system remained the law of the land. It took 87 years and a brutal Civil War to correct that terrible inequity. But until that Civil War was fought, and the slaver states curb-stomped, and the 13th Amendment passed, nothing could change. This wonderfully cogent analysis of the situation explains exactly why, and presents the necessity in a fascinating scene brilliantly executed. It is one of my favorite moments from a film I enjoyed very much.

[@Brianboru88]

As humans we sure tie ourselves up with words. Legality is whatever a body of elected reps say it is. In the UK, law and legality is whatever Parliament says it is.

[@mygoogleemail2063]

When the nice boss is tired of belaboring his point.

[@gerrymcguire7521]

To me, I would like to think, this is Abraham Lincoln! What an incredible actor. hands down my favorite president we have ever had. I think he was sent down here by God to lead us out of this mess. Daniel Day Lewis is mesmerizing in this role

[@martymcdonough1111]

1:02 onward - D-Day sitting there nonplussed...

[@timmaloney9976]

When the end titles said "Whereabouts Unknown", nobody had a clue he could travel through time.

[@benkeel2966]

What's funny about this story is that Mary Todd threw a piece of firewood at Lincoln early in their marriage. True

[@cynthiacassel]

I love that movie. Daniel Day Lewis did a perfect Lincoln.

[@bassdaddy6548]

Great scene! The Ethan Allen story scene is also one of my favorites.

[@onehumanhistory]

lol stanton looks so pissed

[@fasillimerick7394]

Edwin Stanton looks appropriately annoyed.

[@hlysnan6418]

This is my favorite scene in the movie. Shows the brain at work.

[@johnwatson9490]

President Lincoln stopped through the town I live in on his way to take his oath of office for his first term. We have a plaque where he gave his speech. I live in Indiana, but I am close to the city of Cincinnati and as he was traveling up to Railway line adjacent to the Ohio river. It goes right through my town. I stop and look at the plaque from time to time when I am walking alongside the river. The greatest president in our history. I’m still an little bitter as a northerner I just went to Charleston South Carolina a few weeks ago and went to Fort Sumter. I couldn’t help but think this is where the traitors first betrayed their own countrymen. I’m sorry to all southern sympathizers. My family is originally from Tennessee on both sides, my great great great grandfather served in the cavalry under Nathan B. Forrest. I even have papers from him asking for financial assistance from the federal government since he was a veteran. He was denied because he owned about 40 acres of land. But I’m a Yankee, born in Cincinnati, and that was treason in my eyes. He was lawfully elected and states rebelled. In my eyes that is treason. I hate the modern GOP and I grieve for what it has become because it was once a great party, but Trump killed it and big money sellouts killed it. That being said if any states succeeded from the union just because Trump was elected I would’ve taken the same view. That’s treason. I gritted my teeth through the Trump presidency, but I abided by the People’s decision as you should in a democracy. They didn’t, took up arms against their own countrymen, and brought about the worst disaster that has ever befallen this country. Just so they could own people. It’s revolting and disgusting. Shame on them and all of us for bringing about such a catastrophe. How can you sign your name to the Declaration of Independence while owning slaves? Sheer hypocrisy. It is a disgusting stain upon our own revolution.

[@robertoacevedo3805]

Daniel Day Lewis is a fuckin boss! What great acting, flawless! Wow!

[@kayvan671]

He sure knows how to play good 19th century Characters

[@dougdouglas3945]

DDL is on another level, by himself

[@FEARisCOLD]

It’s weird I prefer watching the movie like this. The unsaturated look made it feel almost like a documentary was done back in that day. He also looks even more like Lincoln some how.

[@miguelservetus9534]

What a tour de force of writing acting and film making. And Lincoln was a gift from God. We could use him today. I still tear up when he walks out to attend the play. I want to scream Stop. Don’t go.

[@michaelblount2522]

I don't know how much of this is history vs Hollywood, but this meeting shows the narrow scope of the Emancipation Proclamation and how it got codified into the 13th Amendment

[@PatricKlein86]

Amazing how the found this original footage from a historic cabinet meeting!

[@JonSmith-zl5wc]

This how politics should be talk about with good friends and colleagues

[@dougdouglas3945]

Amen brother. A man might get the idea that he could make a difference exchanging political dialogue of this caliber

[@unbearable9770]

My favorite scene in the whole film.

[@leftymcnally6913]

Bruce McGill's subtle reactions are brilliant

[@mariocisneros911]

This is acting and true thought in how a movie is supposed to be . Unlike action movies that have the audience of a 14 year old

[@Waldenpunk]

Lincoln was an absolutely brilliant man.

[@uwillal]

Even Lincoln knew legality doesn''t mean a rat's rear end in the middle of a war.

[@cubefarmerhkc9105]

What a legal mind.

[@morgan4212]

Ladies and gentlemen, be aware of what your witnessing

[@marshalironsides8777]

what a great man was this

[@davidpeek191]

He nailed Lincoln.

[@Minoltalphafan]

How about the dubious legality of enslaving another human?

[@miguelservetus9534]

Oddly, unethical yes but by the laws at the time, legal. As the Dean of my law school said on day one, if you came to study ethics you are in the wrong school, but the law is a tool , a path to ethics.

[@crimony3054]

Abe says he never believed that slaves were property, but before he said he wanted to stop slavery's expansion into the territories. 2:49

[@benh7]

And what of the Corwin Amendment? I doubt Abe never believed slaves were property.

[@crimony3054]

@@benh7 Abe was a big liar.

[@benh7]

@Doug BevinsWhere did I ever say he was? From Lincoln's first inaugural address: "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." I understand a proposed Amendment to the Constitution has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service. Holding such a provision to now be implied Constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable." So your first point is void. Traitors? An attempt to overthrow a government is rebellion. An attempt to separate and govern oneself is not. So point 2 is void. Certainly he was a lifelong opponent of slavery as were many both north and south. And I really don't understand how I can be a "white supremacist" if I'm not white. But you carry on with your insults for no reason and live your hate filled life. All that I ask is to be left alone.

[@EricHabshey]

Doug Bevins LOL Doug. You’re the historical and Constitutional illiterate. Lincoln said he’d free every slave if it meant keeping the Union together and he’d keep every slave slave if it meant keeping the Union together and that he’d free some and keep others slave if that kept the Union together. He also thought blacks were inferior to whites in every way and should not be allowed to vote or mary or be educated with whites. And you’re an asshole along with being a douche. I suggest you go watch Lincoln by Spielberg again for the 100th time. You can’t handle real objective history so stay in your Disneyfied imaginary one.

[@benh7]

@Doug Bevins First rule of debate is if you have resort to insults you have lost the debate. In any case and in disregard of you being a raving lunatic please note that if you think Lincoln was not a white supremacist(by his own words he was) than I can't help whatever malady has crawled into your brain. Since you don't know me how do you know I am a race hater? Do I hate myself? I think monuments to slaves should re erected in every state. I believe no monuments North or South should be torn down by mobs in violation of law. Indeed, thank God for the historical record. Thank you for your visit.

[@sethjohnson5289]

Cinematic Power... the great Daniel Day-Lewis try matching him!!!

[@The10folks]

Just awesome writing ✍!!!!

[@jadedbrad]

Who is the Cabinet member to Lincoln's left. He never smiles or speaks. But BOY does he have a presence. Stanton? Seward? Someone he beat in 1860.

[@JustSomeCanadianGuy]

“I’m sorry Mr. President I wasn’t listening could you start over?”

[@chucksucks8640]

His argument was right because if you are saying slaves are property then captured war property could freed by the united states because they become the property of the United States military for which they could do whatever they want with.

[@FanboyFilms]

But he didn't recognize the Confederate states as a foreign nation so therefore he wasn't allowed to claim their property from the war.

[@pyromania1018]

@@FanboyFilms But they were making war upon their own country, and depriving an enemy of their war property is viable.

[@inigobantok1579]

​@@pyromania1018but to be in an official war, one nation must be recognized as belligerent therefore is in the green zone for seizure of land property contraband and in this case slaves. He said himself that the confederacy isn't a nation hence is not suseptible to the war powers he theoretically have of capturing contraband items hence his legality for the proclamation is in the edge of the legal table

[@johnwagner4776]

I used to think that Robert Shaw's speech/soliloquy about the USS Indianapolis in "Jaws" was the finest performance of that kind in American cinema. Daniel Day-Lewis (also a British actor) out did Mr. Shaw. Interesting to note that both those performances were directed by Steven Spielberg

[@bradchristy5002]

Brilliant analysis!