Dune Imperium: Immortality - Deep Dive/First Impressions

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[@bastange8856]

47:20 Don't forget that it only requires a Bene Gesserit in order to be able to get to places, the other half of the effect happens even if you don't have a Bene Gesserit, so it's not only Bene Gesserit synergy, but also graft synergy, since graft will also allow access and therefore also allows you to get two bumps.

[@DoctorPhilStayingAlive]

What about long reach + ghola? Is it copy whole effect? 2 bump in 2 fractions?

[@bastange8856]

@@DoctorPhilStayingAlive Yes, which I do believe means that Ghola copies the additional spots allowed, meaning Ghola can go to all the factions because Long Reach is a Bene even though Long Reach can't because Ghola isn't. The implication being that you can get 5 bumps with just one action.

[@henryaudubon]

I think you might be underestimating the Scarab track a bit. We have 7 Scarabs = 2 VP + 2 intrigue card (+2 spice if you reach it first). Since you think the Scarab intrigue card is weak, we can say that Intrigue card > Scarab. So we can subtract off the 2 Scarabs and 2 intrigue cards from their respective sides of the equation and get 5 Scarab = 2 VP. That's not much worse than the faction tracks, and if you get the 2 spice then you're clearly ahead of the factions.

[@draheim90]

Yeah I was going to say something similar. My guess is an intrigue card is roughly worth half a point so 7 scarabs = 3 points therefore 1 scarab isn’t 1/4 of a point but rather 3/7 (.43) a point, which is pretty close to your 2/5 (.40) estimate.

[@Warlock0000]

Re: Scarab; I too think it's value is decent if you manage to get 4 scarabs in a game. In this scenario: Scarab equates to 1.5 spice, and instead equates to 2 spice if you're first to the 2 spice (mind blown - inception).

[@bartoszkiernicki9227]

and if u push on scarabs track u you got guaranteed 2 vp not like in fraction row, who sombody can steal your alliance

[@Youssef-qb3cx]

Agreed - after playing the expansion, this track is actually quite good - you’re also doing pretty much the action you want anyway when you’re gaining scarabs - you’re not really forced to do a lesser action to get up the track (main way is of course researching which you’re probably playing to go to a spot you want or spending 3 specimen in reveal phase (probably only going to do that when the tleilaxu row is bad which is rare or near the end of the game though)

[@wouterluijten9033]

@@Youssef-qb3cx I found it pretty hard to complete the scarab track. The research board only gives you a maximum of 4 scarabs (also implying that you finished the board which isn't a given) so you need other cards to complete that track. Scarabs being scarce means that the few opportunities to gain some should be valued as such -if- you plan on completing that track.

[@bastange8856]

24:00 Yes, but it does allow you to deny imperium row cards to your opponents and allows you to get real good one time use effects without having to buy a card. The aforementioned Power play being one of them. Not to mention any cards that have additional abilities as you trash them, some of which would not get bought usually because people don't have the ways to trash the card. Like in the board you're using for your explanation. There is a good chance nowone will buy Ix-guild compact, but it might be a great one time use.

[@marsexpert4276]

Great video! Nice to hear your opinions on the new cards. Really looking forward to this expansion :)

[@orski78]

Thanks! I am too I think it’s going to be a fun one

[@TheMrRedMad]

Occupation is quite good I think. If you use the triangle to send your agent to interstellar shipping or smuggling, you can recruit the 2 troops you get for retrieving your spaceship from the 2nd or 3rd row. If you send your agent to conspire, same thing, which is huge considering the rewards from this space. And it also makes you draw a card

[@Warlock0000]

Although "High Priority Travel" can do the InterstellarShipping/Smuggling trick for only 1 persuasion. Also as a side buff, I assume Combat icon also allows you to deploy up to 2 troops from your garrison.

[@poprockssuck87]

At 1 persuasion, High Priority Travel feels broken-it turns Rally Troops into a mini Heighliner. 4 Silari instead of 6 Spice is a solid deal. Getting a perpetual mini Heighliner in the second or third round for just 1 persuasion is wild. You'll almost always dominate the conflict early on with 4-6 troops, turn after turn. Plus, Rally Troops is almost always available.

[@TheMrRedMad]

For me this expansion is missing a new leader. I could have seen a new leader with a signet ring ability that lets you get a research bump (which can in the end be a draw)

[@orski78]

Agreed, it’s a bummer

[@MadElk32]

Pretty sure theres a bunch more leaders in the expansion

[@iphatbass]

@@MadElk32 there's none

[@TekGriffon]

On the TTS they were talking about their being some kind of mini expansion after this one that focuses on new leaders. Not sure if it's true and, if it is, I'm not exactly happy they're splitting it off into another purchase.

[@diegolarraguibel6038]

They are probably waiting for the second part of the movie to introduce the Corrino House and characters like Feyd Rautha, Elia... with the movie actors illustrations.

[@sourskittles1294]

Is there a TTS workshop that has the new expansion in it?

[@pedroalvarezgarcia5776]

Long Reach bumps work with Grafting as well. You don't need another Bene Gesserit card. That's only for its own symbols.

[@bartoszkiernicki9227]

i played probaby 20-25 games and: - Scarab track is very important, now the results of thevp are even closer and these 2 points often decide -x-137 in grafting is much stronger then u think, scarab are stong and if u grafted it with stiched (who is great too) - slig farmer is great if u play ilban or princess -usurp is very strong, trashing card who same one want to buy - espinoge is great card, combo with him with ghola on end game and u can draw 7 card in 1 action for 2 water - stillsuit can be played 2-3 times and this is power of this card(u dont need use it on reaviel) -long reach can be grafted, so u dont need bene to got 2 bumps - show of strength can be drafte so can be played in 1 round and with reflexes can draw 4 card - t. surgeon is very strong and e. give u 2 vp, if u combine him with x-137 or stiched

[@Youssef-qb3cx]

If you graft ghola and tleilaxu master, you could acquire two 6 persuasion cost cards from the imperium row and add them to your hand!

[@orski78]

Trueee that’ll be dirty. Some of the new combinations are going to be insane. Love the possibility of seeing these play out

[@bastange8856]

51:25 Occupation is like a Swiss army knife of okey. I think this is the kind of card you kind of want, but only if you just happen to be short of a spice must flow. It's the consolation prize if you had a bit of bad luck basically.

[@JappriCZ]

1k subscriber :) Great video like always.

[@orski78]

Ayyy thank you!!!

[@Crimzy2304]

I really enjoyed this video, you talking about the cards and whatnot. I got into the game recently and just got the IX expansion, which I know has been out for a while. Would've loved to hear your thoughts on those cards as well, though I know that video may be slightly overdue since everyone else has already played it a bunch.

[@mathieuboucaut364]

playing first card "show of strength" would work ok with graft (any combat spot) as you can deploy troops before activating the card ability

[@TekGriffon]

I'm not anywhere near as experienced as you, but I think Usurp is going to be a lot of fun. Trashing means you can get both the agent action and dump action of quite a few cards. It's not your card being played means it overcomes that issue of grafting (burning through your hand too quick). At best it can let you use a high value card an opponent is targeting, and at worst it's still going to help you cycle the imperium row through its trash phases.

[@orski78]

I agree, these were all initial reactions and I’ve been thinking about it more. I think this card can be really good and is incredibly flexible

[@Lemonhead209]

Great review, I've got it on Pre-order here in the UK.

[@orski78]

Nice! I got my physical copy recently, very good quality

[@Warlock0000]

Tleilaxu Master and Spiritiual Fervor are *unique* in that they allow you to draw cards in the reveal phase! Cool!

[@pmduguay]

I think Stitched Horror is much better than you give it credit for. Its versatility certainly is something I think is very valuable.

[@itsthisguyagain1002]

>Combine Slig Farmer with fold space (the card you get from guild)

[@KMReviews]

It’s funny coming back and seeing this after seeing how you view the cards now lol. You said Tleilaxu Surgeon wasn’t good lol.

[@joakimfredriksson3889]

Slig farmer grafted with fold space looks like a fun combo

[@bastange8856]

41:53 I think the advantage in this case is that it offers yellow access instead of green access, giving you options depending on what access you need. So it is about the same value as Arrakis Liaison I'd say.

[@dylanhardy3215]

Interesting to see your take on the new cards. Although I don't disagree with your general sentiment that the Tleilaxu icons are somewhat weak (and thus the cards that give them all seem a bit under-tuned as well) I do think that you're overestimating the degree with the metric you're using. Thinking of a single faction "bump" as "half a victory point" is somewhat misleading since the distribution matters, it's easy for increases not to net a point and each track gets quite a bit more inefficient once you've gotten the first VP. In my opinion, the better comparison is to compare the entire Bene Tleilax track to the track for a single faction and to compare a Tleilaxi icon to a bump for that specific faction. So a card which reveals for an increase with the Bene Gesserit (like In the Shadows) is the reference point for a card which reveals for a single Bene Tleilax icon. If you get 6 Bene Gesserit "bumps" then you'll have maxed out the track, earned a VP, an Intrigue card and (likely) gotten the Alliance for another VP (assuming you got there first). If you get 6 Bene Tleilax "bumps" then you'll have gained 1 VP, 2 Intrigue cards and 2 spice (assuming you got there first); but one more icon will get you that second victory point and, unlike a normal faction track, nobody can steal it from you and you can get it as late as you'd like. All of that makes me think that a Bene Tleilax icon is very comparable, often better, than a single faction increase which always goes to the same faction. Just some food for thought.

[@lioneddy]

Agreed. 2 VPs are a lot in this game. In addition intrigue cards are also always helpful.

[@sillyrunner1]

Thanks for this deep dive!

[@orski78]

You’re welcome!

[@casmx7300]

Quick question, I'm seeing that you're showing all of this off in TTS, which includes Immortality. From what I can tell, I'm subscribed to the same version that you listed in the description but I don't have Immortality. Is there a way for me to get the version that has Immortality that I'm missing cause right now, all I have is base game and Ix.

[@orski78]

The official mod isn’t out yet, just the save file. If you check in the discord there is a link to it

[@casmx7300]

@@orski78 Thanks for the quick response. I'll have to join the discord! lol

[@bastange8856]

57:46 Tleilaxu Surgeon is kind of like paying two specimens for a worse bump. Since the bump doesn't allow any of the faction track goodies, nor does it allow you to steal an alliance. On that note I don't get why they didn't just made the Tleilaxu track a normal additional faction track... That said though, the Tleilaxu Surgeon is actually pretty great. You get two to buy which is perfectly fine, but it allows you to ramp up your deckbuilding at the cost of losing out on combat power. There are plenty of characters that don't care too much for combat anyway, especially when facing a Baron or a Beast who might go heavy combat. On top of that the access is actually pretty decent, with emperor and blue access. Just pretend the buying tleilaxu doesn't exist.

[@elWhiteNinja1]

Scientific breakthrough will also draw you a card a good deal of the time as unless you are reaching the 2 icons that turn you are already there and the reward is drawing a card. Not sure if it is good or not as the game would probably be over before then but it is interesting.

[@nikolaykamishev7241]

What about the Slig Farmer -> Folded space combo? Do you think you should trash the Folded Space after playing it along Slig Farmer?

[@pedroalvarezgarcia5776]

Are the cards with "graft" forced to be actually grafted or is it just an option? Every time you showed one you said "when grafted" that lead me to believe that it is the former but from other reviews it was the latter (just an option).

[@monkeyunit4533]

Great video! While Face Dancer Initiate looks like a solid card you kinda ignored the fact it costs you a card in your hand. While graft looks strong, it can lead to less powerfull reveal turns if the cards or actions you take don't let you draw. The normal face dancer solves this and seems way more powerfull to me than the initiate. Nerving intrigue deck is interesting, but might just increase the luck. If one player gets 2 realyl good cards, and another gets 2 terrible ones it can swing the game. It will be interesting how it works out. I also wonder how all the new endgame cards will impact the usage of the Bene Geserit spot where you can steal cards. Seems a lot more likely you end up with 4 intrigue cards you can't or don't want to play right away. Having the option to play some of the endgame cards is a good thing. At 44:00 when talking about PLanned Coupling you state " and when you graft it you draw a card" and you say this a couple more times before. Grafting isn't optional tho, you HAVE to play the graft card along side something else ( and you will always draw if you want to) ( Edit: You talk about this a couple of minutes later) The good thing with Planned Coupling is have a Bene Geserit tag with the first card you play to trigger all the other Bene Geserit cards. Blank Slate is an insane combo with that Tleilaxu card that gives 1 solari for each agent icon on the other grafted card, giving you 7 solari! I doubt going to 11 ( or 10 in 4p) increases the gamelength that much, as the research track gives everyone more free resources and the Tleilaxu Track is there for everyone to get an extra uncontested VP. If anything it will be the relative low persuation on the new cards and graft getting you to play more cards which make it harder to buy Spice Must Flow which lengthens the game.

[@wouterluijten9033]

Beguiling Pheromones doesn't work with Power Play if I read the card correctly. Power Play trashes itself which means you can't trash it with Pheromones for the additional influence.

[@TekGriffon]

I kinda wish the Bene Tleilax mechanics provided an alternartive method for generating sol to help players work towards their swordmaster even if they got unlucky with their influence draws or got crowded out of shipping.

[@orski78]

Agreed! And the new experimentation starting cards are going to make the shipping tract even more attractive

[@Yacovo]

Thanks for the reveal.

[@orski78]

You’re welcome!

[@federicolarosapsicologo]

So Immortality is already available on TTS?

[@orski78]

Technically, although I’m going to hold off on streaming immortality until the official release date

[@FlorisDVijfde]

@@orski78 Which Steam Workshop mod is this on Table Top Simulator? I could not find one called Dune Imperium Immortality. Thanks!

[@bartoszkiernicki9227]

@@FlorisDVijfde murphy version but u need save to play immo

[@federicolarosapsicologo]

@@bartoszkiernicki9227 Can you explain better how to play with immortality?

[@casmx7300]

I'd love to see the official ruling but my interpretation of the reading of Ghola with Carryall (15:20) is that it would be a waste. The way I read it, the agent you send to the space will only collect spice once. So, it's not like it's collecting spice once for Carryall and once for Ghola, it's harvesting spice just the one time. With that in mind, the wording of Carryall is 'Double the base (not bonus) spice you harvest with this Agent.' So, using The Great Flat as the space in question, the base (not bonus) spice there is 3. So Carryall will double that number from 3 to 6 and Ghola, mimicing the wording from Carryall, will repeat what was just done, doubling the base spice, which we just established was 3, to 6. The 2 numbers don't add together and it would be my understanding that the base number isn't 'updated' but rather would be what is printed on the board. That's the base number and that number does not change, hence the term 'base'. So, it's just doing the same thing twice with the same result. Making it into an equation might also help clarify. Let's say Base = 3. Carryall is saying, the spice you harvest is base * 2. Base * 2 = 6. Ghola is also saying the spice you harvest is base * 2. Base * 2 still = 6. Spice you harvest = 6. Now, I can definitely see the argument being made that the base number is being doubled from 3 to 6, at which point, Ghola would then double that number, making it 12. Setting aside the fact that just seems game-breakingly broken, I would argue that my interpretation of the interaction is further supported by the official rules based on how Ghola interacts with Power Play. Power Play states You gain 2 influence instead of 1. If you Graft Ghola to it, you still only gain 2 influence instead of 1. You don't gain any extra influence (though you would still have to trash Ghola). Now, if Power Play read, 'you gain 1 more influence' or 'you gain 1 extra influence', then it would work no problem. Following that logic, if Carryall said 'Double the spice you harvest (not bonus)' instead of 'Double the base (not bonus) spice you harvest' then I think that would also work. However, I'd argue that since it specifically states 'base spice', and if we agree the base is what is printed on the board, then I believe that my understanding of the interaction would be correct and that this combo would ultimately accomplish nothing. Again though, that's just my interpretation of the interaction and I could very well be wrong. I'd love to see an official ruling. Ultimately though, I suspect Ghola is going to be a very contraversial card with a lot of rules lawyering debates.

[@MrPanzerTanzer]

Mod doesn't show immortality for me at setup. Do you have a special version or am I to stupid to find it.

[@bartoszkiernicki9227]

u need save, a lot of players got this save

[@MrPanzerTanzer]

@@bartoszkiernicki9227 Ok thx. I thought about, what I am missing.

[@joramhartmann7101]

You are totaly undervalueing the Graft cards. the Agent icons on these should be considered as a Bonus to the icons that the card its grafted with has.

[@Flamingcloud083]

I think Usurp is really good... You can go anywhere and get whatever effect you want.. Yeah you won't always have lady Jessica to graft to but that doesn't make it weak.. Keep in mind that you will almost certainly be able to put this on top of your deck when you choose to acquire it meaning you may know exactly what you will be able to make use of. Also agree with what others have said, Scarab is definitely underrated.. If you don't have a way to gain 2-3 extra scarabs over the course of the game you will maybe get the one victory point (maybe not).. with a scarab card early you will not only almost certainly get 2 victory points but you probably will get the bonus two spice as well. Basically you said it yourself with the Scarab intrigue card... "It could let you push to the end of one of these.. but how often is that going to come up?" Pretty much every game for multiple players. This isn't like faction influence where you have tons of opportunities to get that second point. The only Scarabs you get are from the cards you buy, luck based intrigue cards, and science symbols.. I would say getting 3 scarab from the science board is extremely likely.

[@minebuild_]

I know this is not Immortality related but, Is it allowed to use signet ring to go on smuggling or shipping with duke leto. (While being 1 influence behind of an opponent) And then choose to go down the track. Using ring effect to tie the opponent and choosing the influence reward to push further on same track and take the influence token from that player?

[@joramhartmann7101]

Planed coupeling ist crazy good because it will also count as a bene gesserit in Play, so yo can Graft another bene card and have it directly be activate as the second bene card in play

[@Denn1sdw]

How do you play this in TTS? It doesn't seem to be included in Murphy Zlaw or BrickHouse version or am I missing something?

[@bartoszkiernicki9227]

a lot of player have save on murphy version, on start of game save it and u got it

[@DBPCINC]

I would love to see your thoughts on playing this without Ix once you get your hands on it!

[@kurlykrenins]

The usual workshop mod hasn't been updated yet... You're planning on playing this week. Hmm giving me hope there will be an update soon lol

[@petervanderhelm4161]

I think you are undervaluing the craft cards like Planned Coupling an Bene Tleilax Researcher. They are enabler cards for cards that say "If crafted". That makes them better imo.

[@mildmildfire]

Yay, immortality!

[@orski78]

Finally!

[@bastange8856]

Planned Coupling is just a card to enable Bene Gesserit synergy, it refunds itself and activates your other Bene Gesserit cards, if you're not playing a Bene Gesserit synergy game, it's worthless to you.

[@mrTannu666]

Yeah it's the only way to activate "if you have another Bene Gesserit card in play" condition on your first turn which can be quite strong because BG synergy cards are really good.

[@bastange8856]

@@mrTannu666 Technically there is the BG card that lets you take another turn immediately. 🤔

[@mrTannu666]

@@bastange8856 Yes I guess that technically counts although it's not first turn anymore when you take another turn.

[@nazarbilozor9398]

Guild Impersonator seems to be good with Memnon and his ring)

[@orski78]

Agreed! That would be a great combo

[@Ganmue]

Great video, glad to hear your thoughts. One point though: I don't think you NEED to graft with the graft cards. At least that's what the original intention read like, Grafting a card unto another, merely gives more options, but graft cards don't inherently go -1 in card advantage. I think..... Could be wrong on that, but we'll have to wait and see. Regardless, great job!

[@orski78]

Thank you! I wasn’t sure either so I just looked it up, turns out they HAVE to be played with another card

[@Ganmue]

@@orski78 That.... is rather disappointing, but maybe they'll turn out better during actual gameplay, maybe for example, some offload cards will synergize with the cards that allow for trashing. The family atomics sounds like a very good way to manipulate the row, so I might test that out with my group before the expansion even is released, as it was something similiar to the imperium Churn optional rule for solo/duo games, that was really crucial to keep the game flowing better

[@periculum69]

On average it takes between 2 and 3 actions to get a victory point. It takes 3.5 scarabs to get both a victory point and an intrigue card. So basically, you spend 1 action for an intrigue, and then an average number of actions for a victory point. I think you're right that that's nothing special or too exciting, but it also doesn't really seem too weak or underwhelming. Just kind of, meh. Average. Which in my opinion is the best possible outcome. It makes it an option, but not something everyone will go for nor something everyone will ignore.

[@cadencepika]

So can Ix and Immortality be played together? My friend group was assuming no

[@zsoltnagy3991]

Yes, you can play with both.

[@orski78]

Most people I know are playing them together (and I will be too)

[@jamesknowles9236]

The triangle spots are YELLOW, not Orange. Drove me fucking nuts during the whole video.

[@Holybosss]

Orksi I wanna see you review this video after a few plays and walk back some of your comments haha

[@Gainward123456]

Holy cow, the Ghola looks crazy good. Now I am scared, that the new cards destroy the game. -_- e: Okay, after the Ghola were weak/normal cards.

[@orski78]

Same thing I was thinking at the time 😅

[@fan-i-am]

As much as I love Dune Imperium and Dune IP I think the game is perfect as it is, and adding another expansion like Immortality is going to just add too much/convolute the game. Too many cards that we'll never see in the Imperium Row, or the Intrigue deck PLUS the extra conditions/combos we'll need to utilize the new mechanics will not be able to pull off, or even keep up with someone who just IGNORES the new expansion strategies and keeps it straight-forward traditional strategy. BUT, I guess we'll wait and see.

[@fan-i-am]

@@auskali Yeah I know. But the other cards do

[@liamdoherty1620]

Wait, so playing ghola with power play is an instant alliance. 4 bumps with the same faction in 1 turn

[@orski78]

Damn didn’t even think about that one, actually insane value

[@federicolarosapsicologo]

No, the card doesn't say "gain an additional influence" but "gain 2 influence instead of 1". If Ghola doubles that text, you still will gain 2 influence instead of 1...