Dungeon Craft #30: Dungeon World Review

The Professor reviews Dungeon World by Latorra and Koebel.
"Fury of the Dragon's Breath" by Peter Crowley
Bandcamp : petercrowley.ba...

[@jgroth3906]

There's a reason players often say they dislike Dungeon World and other PBtA games. DW is about the GM and players coming together to craft a narrative about fantasy adventurers getting into dangerous situations and risking life and limb for the chance of fortune and glory. It's about giving the players the chance to embody a fantasy adventurer facing down ever escalating threats. It's about experiencing the thrill of real risk and reward. Most players don't want that. They might say they want that, but most players actually want to find the right ways to manipulate the game mechanics to "win". Who can blame them? That's the way most players have been trained to think by video games and most modern RPG systems including 5e. Dungeon World is not a game to win. It's a set of mechanics aimed at crafting a shared narrative. Players should revel in their character's victories, and lament their defeats, but they also need to play to find out what happens and understand that character failure is not equivalent to the player losing. Some signs a player may be in the wrong mindset is if they say something like, "I hate how I'm always getting punished by rolling 7-9". This implies that the game should reward taking the "right" action and punish doing the "wrong" action. There is no right or wrong action because although some actions have better or worse odds of succeeding depending on who's doing them, the most likely outcome is always 7-9 because DW is all about crafting a narrative about adventurers facing down escalating threats. Another sign is complaining about the lack of options. The options for approaching any given situation are practically infinite. Just because it isn't listed in a book, doesn't mean it isn't an option. Appreciating the beauty of Dungeon World requires a shift in mindset, one that players may find difficult if they never GM. (I think GMs are more used to occupying the "fiction first" headspace). Dungeon world is about creatively engaging with the narrative, to create an exciting story full of danger, and playing to find out what happens. It's not about engaging with the mechanics to win the game.

[@AndrusPr8]

After playing a couple DW sessions and facing a DnD 5e session again, now I realize how time consuming the DM's turn are. In DW, with the lack of rounds and turns and the GM depending on your own moves, the players are constantly in the spotlight. Combat is way more engaging and reactive since it progress under the players decisions and not so much the GM intervention. DnD DM-Player interaction DM: I attack you with a mace, 14 hits? Player: No DM: Ok. And now I go with a claw. 18 hits? Player: Yes DM: Ok, that's... 8 damage. Dungeon World DM-Player interaction DM: I attack you with the mace, what do you do? Player: I defend myself DM: OK. That's a defy danger roll, describe how you defend yourself. Player: I set a trap for the goblin. This place has a slight slope so I place myself in such a way that when he tries to strike me the goblin trips. DM: That could be quick thinking or a sharp observation, roll either with INT or WIS, whatever suits you better. Player: 10 DM: The goblin trips over and your tactics work.

[@override367]

I've played with various Homebrew and d&d to make it faster, one of the easiest ways is getting rid of anything that would change a character's AC mid-action. And I'm going to be honest I feel like the biggest offender is The shield spell just slowing the game now but there are other ways. I am seriously leaning on despite my players objections and incredibly strenuous objections at that, bowling forward with making it so that all reactions in the game require you to declare them before the enemy takes their action. So if I tell you the goblin is attacking you you have to say I'm using shield or warding flair or whatever right then otherwise I'm going to roll and you're going to take the damage because I already know what your armor class is

[@jeremymullens7167]

DnD Dm-player interaction Dm: The monster attacks in a flurry of blows and scores a hit with their claw doing 8 damage. I tend to know the AC of my players. I write down all important statistics and don’t ask them for that information. A failed hit does not need to be described.

[@jeremymullens7167]

The mechanics of the game can largely be hidden from the players. A DM could roll all the dice and players would know even less. What’s important is what the DM feels comfortable managing. A common one is encumbrance. Lots of DM’s just drop it. They don’t track it or simplify it. Another DM might have a system or strategy to manage it. Most of the simplification I’ve seen in DnD is largely aimed at making it easier to DM and dropping the harder systems. The initiative system in 5e in my opinion is not the best one. It is, however, easier to run. Even though people still get bogged down

[@jkwatcher47]

This is EXACTLY the type of RPG review I’ve been looking for. I want to know how the game plays! I want to know how the mechanics are different. Maybe I’ve been looking in the wrong places, but thank you for this review.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks. I try to be useful.

[@gogonomo5604]

You need to go back through his videos. Some mind blowing revelations in them

[@Zorato1]

I think many of these "newer" RPG´s really understand there are alot of 40+ year old players that do not have time to play all weekends as we could do when we were 14, and the game needs to have a really effective flow when you play them. Many people trying these new games for the first time are often amazed how much you get done in one session when combat does not take 30-60 minutes and instead 5 minutes.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

daarco2 Yep. Couldn’t have said it better.

[@noreaster7171]

👍🏻

[@knghtbrd]

More importantly, even if you CAN play three hours every week, if a villain escapes after 2-3 rounds of combat, it's "Get back here, you're the bad guy we've been after for months and you're not getting away!" After 15 rounds? "Get back here, we've just spent the past 45 minutes kicking your ass and we're NOT going through all of that again!" I love Prof. Dan's way of handling mechanics quickly in a way that makes the story and the cinematic action rise to the top. I love the world where the monsters are usually men or … things that maybe were men once… I love that they aren't trying to be human … but still have things like families if players start getting too bloodthirsty (an that maybe the best thing to do is NOT kill everything in sight…) I say that despite coming to this channel not from D&D but from HeroQuest. Never had any positive D&D experiences growing up, but a friend did own HQ and we had a blast back then. There's almost NO story, there's basically no good reason to leave monsters alive ever, and … actually combat still happens quickly, though some of the mechanics are a little weird. We do role play it, but since there's no real story the role playing doesn't have to make sense. The elf found a wandering orc who couldn't hit him even after being buffed by a threat/complication house rule designed to keep players moving, so we decided his ghost was still trying to ineffectively stab the elf. We exorcised him but in the next quest another appeared, "…I don't know, out of the wizard's hat, yeah…" and immediately attacked the elf again, missing still. Reincarnated? Must be. We should name him in case he comes back again… Bob! His name is Bob. And as far as we know … his ghost is still trying. Bob: Stab is how orc show he care… Wizard: I don't think that's how that works, actually… Dwarf: I don't know, it doesn't sound like a bad idea to me… Elf: Did someone wake up on the wrong side of the rock pile this morning? Wouldn't mind a D&D game with adults or even with teens today, but in the latter case I'd probably have to be running it and I haven't got a ton of experience as a player even. What I had dates back to 2E and THAC0 and a table full of people who were determined to make sure that I didn't want to play again since they were OBLIGATED to allow me to be there if I wanted to be. So, yeah, I came for the making stuff cheap. Stayed because the Cavern's campaign seems like so much fun, and the kinds of games the Prof runs actually sound like fun to play.

[@Jay-ql4gp]

This is four years late, but I played a session of 3.5 once where one battle, just one...took nine hours of real time. Now there were nine players, who had been gaming for a few years by this point, but there was so much page turning, and so much discussion and planning on how to take the monsters out that it just sucked the life out of me.

[@Zorato1]

@@Jay-ql4gp Been there, done that :) That is the oldschool way of doing it. Nowdays it just goes so much faster.

[@martinphillpot2010]

6 or less means the gm makes a move, not necessarily a fail.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

True.

[@jerramiemiller]

This trigger means that the DM can simly do a counterattack. I was thinking on a d20, the total rolled score... 1-9 fail 46% 10-15 success @ a cost 36% 16-20 success. 18% Ive actually rolled this out on multiple dice rollers and they all seem to get pretty close to these same numbers. Nat 1 and 20 rules still apply.

[@martinphillpot2010]

@@jerramiemiller a mere counterattack lacks imagination, one time I set a city on fire on a roll of a 6.

[@Jupiter065]

I think Dungeon World is going to always be fighting the visceral psychological resistance players have to hurting their characters with their own rolls. It doesn't really matter that it's mechanically and logically the same as opposed rolls or enemy rolls against their defense, there's a powerful psychological benefit to being able to blame someone else's good luck rather than one's own bad luck.

[@WARCERER]

I think most PbtA games, need a change of psychology, to learn to embrance failure and complications. Besides, usually one thing anyone who plays them has to understand is that you are not "hurting yourself", the opponents and adversaries are acting, and you are interfering... and that may come with a cost...

[@gogonomo5604]

I'm going to present it as "you engage in hand to hand with the orc, roll to see who gets the upper hand, that person rolls damage".

[@Baalur]

You can let other players roll the damage for the one suffering it. "The player to the left of you rolls damage." It could create some tension with certain player types. But usually it works pretty well.

[@gogonomo5604]

@@Baalur I did this at my last game. It was so funny. Made 2 brothers roll the damage each would take. Colourful language indeed

[@Dinofaustivoro]

Its the same as making a jump check, you roll the dice and you may get hurt if you fail.

[@biggrump4967]

ICRPG player right here - been in the system since the beginning. Seeing you mentioning it in your vids and comments has upped my fandom of your channel to 11! I really liked this ‘review.’ Our community has been raving about your content; keep it up! We are with you - the shield wall approves! I would argue this was more of an analysis of what you found at your own table and I preferred that style to “this is what it contains.” Others already do those. I really like how you bring experience to your videos. I personally think ICRPG is the perfect pairing for the TAGS in dungeon world. I really like the HP system in dungeon world but since ICRPG does not use an actual stat, it is a tougher conversion. I also think the effort in ICRPG can be adjusted to match classes similar to dungeon world (mix up the D4, D6, and D8 in ICRPG to the effort your class is best with). I haven’t found the sweet spot yet between the two systems. As much I want to try the 2d6 concept... we all grew up with the d20 and you are right - nothing beats the natural 20; either from the GM or the players. I don’t think I can switch to that.

[@TheFleahost]

So glad you commented. I'm just now hearing about DW and ICRPG. I was wondering if they worked together. Thank you Big Grump!

[@kevingooley9628]

Sounds like you're pretty experienced with ICRPG, if you see this, is there any official TAGS for ICRPG? I like the system, but he gives tags as a vague suggestion, as I'd he decided to not go forward with using them. I was wondering if anyone had created a list of tag effects or usages to go with the weapon tags he gives?

[@hunterironside9969]

I love the Apocalypse engine. Dungeon World is my fave of that engine. Kult: divinity lost is also really good.

[@lordleif1]

Do you still feel the same about it?

[@paulofrota3958]

This is the first time I watch a video on your channel and I'm surprised with the quality of writing and editing. Congratulations, you deserve a hundred thousand subs! Ok, now for the complaints. Everything you said about the system was correct but very, VERY superficial. You grossed over the best thing about DW, the actual roleplaying/conversation mechanic between GM and players and how the moves and tags actually work - a dragon's description may be brief, but its tags give the GM so many options and ideas! Also, all playbooks (that's how the character sheets are called) are available online. I understand the video had time and content limitations but I think this game deserves a more in-depth review of what makes it unique and I believe you could deliver great content about it. Thank you for the video and keep up the great work!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Paulo, you are correct about the video being superficial. Reviews have to hit broad concepts, but if I were to do it again, I would certainly mention the tags, which are really cool and innovative. Thanks for your compliments re: the writing and editing. You can help get my subscriber numbers up by sharing my videos, for which I am always grateful!

[@paulofrota3958]

Will do! You deserve much praise! I've been watching your videos non-stop for the past few hours and I'm really impressed :-) Congrats again on the amazing work! And let me say this, when I said the video was superficial that might have sounded a little bit harsher than I intended, so sorry for that. I understand that reviews need to be broad and (in a short video) can't explain everything. What I really meant is that maybe some people who never read the book or seen the game being played might misunderstand some concepts and dismiss the game as 'silly' or 'simplistic' (I've seen that happen). You know how some players find it hard to describe actions and go right for the name of the moves? How they focus on the strategic aspects of combat instead of the cinematic ones? I think you mentioned your own players disliking DW... It would be awesome to see a video about that experience and hear your opinion about the reasons you think your players didn't enjoy DW and preferred to go back to D&D. Regards and thanks for taking the time to reply!

[@john-lenin]

The point is that with a narrative system you don’t need hit points. You only need statuses and effects. The tricky thing about the system is defining the time period and meaning of success and failure for each encounter so that the expectations of the players are clear.

[@paulofrota3958]

Oh, before I forget: those are some of the best-looking minis I've ever seen '-' Congrats!!!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks! Many of them I obtained quite cheaply. I have a couple of videos coming up that features those minis and I talk about which lines made them and how much they cost, if you're interested.

[@michellefloyd2216]

Ever since running Apocalypse World, Dungeon World has been my go-to for swords & sorcery.

[@ronwisegamgee]

Good review, Prof. DM. Besides its innovative game mechanics, other area of high praise that I would give Dungeon World is the DM section. Never have I ever seen a DM section that spells out what a DM does like Dungeon World, from sticking to the DM agenda to having a solid list of consequences whenever a character rolls anything under a 10 to setting up fronts. It's damn near foolproof, IMO.

[@1simo93521]

I ran three campaigns in DW I found it fit my fast paced style of GM'ing really well. The trick with DW is to only roll dice when you are prepared to inflict consequences on the players and also go big with the most outrageous scenes and enemies you can, the game really rewards outrageous action.

[@matthewconstantine5015]

I'm not going to go into a long thing, but I'm not a fan of D&D. Never have been. However, Dungeon World seems like something I could really enjoy. All the style and theme, but with rules that don't make me want to scream. What you said about it being what you'd make if you tried to make D&D today is close to what I said when I first read it. "It's like someone decided to make D&D actually fun to play." Cool review. And I'm enjoying your videos. Thanks.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

You're welcome. Try it out. And keep watching this channel. I try to make it system agnostic. Next week's episode is about horror. Cheers and thanks for watching!

[@ichifish]

If it's the mechanics that bother you about D&D then you're gonna love DW. If you're not a fan of fantasy settings (I've outgrown it myself), I would highly recommend Apocalypse World or one of the other games that use the Powered by the Apocalypse engine, which is what Dungeon World uses. Check out the Roll20 Apocalypse World play-throughs for examples. There's also a great example of a Dungeon World one-shot with first time rpgers here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nam6fHiDhqyiZ9E

[@Pastor.Jeff.Strong]

Dungeon World is easily the best role playing game I've tried. It's so fun and fast-paced. As a GM, it's SO much easier to prep for, and so much more enjoyable to GM than D&D 5e.

[@VaGuS343]

Thanks prof! I use this for my 1 evening 1 shot adventures or my around the camp fire (while camping) adventures. Prep is minimal, as you said....I can play with both new and old players....we all have a great time with the free flowing narration style game.... and i have fun cause it is so casual.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Glad I connected you with this great game.

[@VaGuS343]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Yes. Thanks for doing that. I also got connected with DCC, and ICRPG.... Thanks again. PS: I left a comment just a few minutes ago on your magic video ... I know professors are very busy people but I'd love your opinion. Take your time. Thanks again!

[@starkfels-diespielefestung2680]

I wouldn't say you necessarily fall into the bottomless chasm if you rolled a 6 or lower. What would happen? Your character just dies? How is this interesting? The beauty of this system is that it produces outcomes to drive the story forward, and not producing dead ends. So what could happen instead? You want to jump over the chasm. If the GM thinks you should make it, no problem. You don't even need to roll. If he wants to introduce a danger or have your actions have consequences, you roll. But as a GM you should keep in mind what those conseqences could be and how those could make the scene more interesting (after all one principle is: Be a fan of your players characters). On a 6, the goblin chasing you might be faster, grabs you by the ankles and have you dangling down the bridge on his side. A makes for a much more satisfying outcome because now the player needs to act again. In this way you can snowball dangerous situation instead of just "letting a character die".

[@ichifish]

I don't think I'd put a bottomless chasm in my settings for exactly that reason. If it were bottomless, on a miss I'd have the player stranded on a ledge 50' below.

[@taragnor]

Yeah ultimately all a failure by 6 means is that the DM can "make a move." It doesn't necessarily mean catastrophic failure. Granted you could be heavy handed and kill the players, but it'd be far more exciting if you did something like the "put them in a spot" move where you have one precariously hanging by one hand on the edge... do his fellows go and rescue him and put themselves in danger of the pursuing goblin's arrows or do they leave him to die?

[@apilgrim8715]

You don't have to die in DW really. This game has a considerable amount of negotiation.

[@strygian192]

Games where you can’t die or are saved repeatedly are boring.

[@Jupiter065]

@@strygian192 There's a whole lot of options between "can't die" and "fail a single roll and die". The latter is just terrible game design and worse storytelling, unless it's supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek meat-grinder game.

[@oldercloudify]

I wrote a supplement for Dungeon World called Mort Tanis. I ran it with my group, but they hated Dungeon World. It’s so fun to run.

[@TorianTammas]

I noticed that what seems to be fun for the GM is often hated by the players.

[@hoogmonster]

Whilst an experienced DnD n player might feel underwhelmed by the 2d6 roll mechanic one could always make the roll of natural 12 a crit if one wanted to. So 10 and 11 are as the rules state but 12 deals double damage. If you want then add the modifier to the damage dealt.

[@BrJPGameplay]

This was the first system that I played and I love it, the amount of storytelling besides combat is great, you and your DM contribute to the story together much more easily than any other system I played afterwards.

[@saintmatthew956]

Great review. We have been playing DW exclusively for almost a year now. There's custom character sheet (or playbooks) online. To me, the strength of the system relies on risk/reward rather than the pass/failure. If bad roll on Discern Realities might lead to a complication, you might not roll to look for traps in every room and corridor. Lastly, the advice on Fronts should be required reading for any DM/GM.

[@ichifish]

Yes, I totally agree about the risk of failure in Powered by the Apocalypse (the ruleset used for DW) games making everything more interesting. A player in my homebrew game tried to extract part of an engine, hard missed, and blew up the airship. If he'd missed the roll in D&D, he just would have missed it. Another time the doctor tried to heal another player but missed, causing the player to go unconscious at the worst possible moment. Fun stuff.

[@TorianTammas]

@@ichifish My players hated it from the bottom of their hearts.

[@jgroth3906]

@@TorianTammas Sadly, most players don't care about exciting narratives and experiencing risk vs reward. They just want to "win" the game.

[@EmeranceLN13]

What about just sort of combining the ideas of both in terms of dice rolls? Drop the 2d6's and use the d20. Add in your previously mentioned idea of simpler DC checks like 5, 10, 15 and then go up to 20 or 25 depending on the level/modifiers of your players and enemies. Then you incorporate in Dungeon World's concept of failure, success with consequences, and success. You still give your players the wholly psychological endorphin rush of hitting a natural 20. But, you maintain the speed of combat that Dungeon World offers. I am starting to feel the drag of long combat sessions as both a player and DM. I went from playing sorcerers or rogues to simply barbarians. I charge every enemy, swing my sword, and most of the time it works out great and I end combat fast. Then I can get back to the more interesting storytelling part. My annoyance with DnD combat and most games nowadays is the number bloating to enable instant gratification. Dealing 2 damage to kill an enemy in one hit is the same as dealing 20 damage and killing an enemy in one hit. The 20 is just a larger number than the 2, so we feel better about the 20 than the 2. This comment was way more than I planned to write 30 seconds ago. But, ultimately, I wanted to say that I love your videos and you have read my mind about my own issues with games from D&D to video games like Skyrim and such.

[@azuretigers5562]

WOW ! Thank you Professor Dungeon Master ! I was extremely curious about this game system of Dungeon World - thank you for explaining the system - - it makes it so simpler with your demonstrations !! I can confirm that there is something ''enchanting'' about the D20 system that cannot be easily replicated. I must say however, that I do enjoy the combat systems proposed in D&D The Boardgame (with the yellow/orange/red/purple dice) and the HeroQuest system. One thing I must complain about though with any original D&D game (from 2nd Edition to 5th Edition) ; it created an entire population of people who seem to focus entirely on D&D without trying new systems. I'm tired of Goblins and Fairies and Gnomes and Dragons - - yet, I seem to be the only one offering something different and I cannot find players, or it's extremely difficult for me to find players. Even when I propose something more GrimDark - - people are very reluctant to try it.

[@aksantom]

This is the best system I have ever played. I wish I discovered it before I bought all the pathfinder 1e books...switched all my campaigns to DW

[@amdnable]

what a great review! illlustrating the rules with your toy soldiers was much more entertaining than blocks of text :D

[@mrgunn2726]

Great review! I agree with you on the character sheet. The first thing I like to look at with a new RPG system is the character sheet, it can tell you a tremendous amount about the system and what questions to ask first.

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

I am an RPG writter and both my published games are PbtA's (Powered by the Apocalipse), the same genre of Dungeon World. My First book actually started as a DW hack i published for free over a few years before i turned It into a comercial product. I really love the move mechanic for resolution. It makes games way more interesting and dynamics compared to D20 System.

[@InnoVintage]

The thing I personally like about dungeon world isn't the innovative combat, it's the ease of DMing. In D&D, with undefined stakes, and difficult rules, it takes a lot of skill and talent to run. But in dungeon world, it's incredibly easy to run, you just talk to the players, and tell them when to roll, it's an easy to learn RPG. And what's more, it's all one book in comfortable language. And the consequence system makes the game much more consistently interesting than the difficulty system of D&D. But I love D&D, for different reasons.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Very well reasoned. I loved DW because it was a snap to run. While the consequence system is innovative it starts to feel sort of....meh....boring... after several sessions. The natural 20 is thrilling in a way a natural 12 isn’t. What do you think?

[@iainmaclean1205]

Have you tried Monster of the Week? I ask because we have a regular d&d game, 3 years and counting, and recently we have tried MoW whenever our regular dm has had to work shifts. It has the same mechanic as DW but has a totally different feel as we are trying to recreate the feel of tv shows like Buffy and Stranger Things not epic fantasy. The play is to figure out what the monster is, where it is, what it is weak to and to somehow defeat it while developing character back stories and creating the world. The players have a lot of power and as a game it feels more like collaborative story telling than anything I've experienced with 5e (and AL in particular). Now that we are familiar with the system and the feel of the game (although we do play it for laughs) we are now talking about giving DW a shot. We are getting used to our character's fragility (only 7 hp, and you are dying when you hit 3) and learning how to play more creatively - you cannot just trade blows with the monsters, you will die. I wonder if trying the system in a different context would make your players more amenable?

[@dkbibi]

Side note, on a 10+ of hack n slash, if the player chooses to do +1d6 dmg he also gets attacked by his enemy whether or not he kills it.

[@starkfels-diespielefestung2680]

5:40 Don't forget: In order for the fighter to actually do damage, he would need to have a method of doing damage. Just wailing with a sword on dragon scales might do nothing at all because you simply can't penetrate them with a sword.

[@Plotspider]

I'll give you the d20 feeling. I like that very much too, but I LOVE DW and it is precisely because I did not want to just have to figure out the DnD world and work with things out of it.

[@tomyoung9834]

Great Video, thanks! As a gamer who started in 1983, who now runs Pathfinder, I’ve been intrigued by DW, now will definitely check it out!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

For $20 it's worth it--even if you only steal some concepts.

[@crowgoblin]

You can you a d20, adjust the targets... 1-10 miss/fail 11-15 partial hit/success 16-20 full hit/success It’s the same 50/50 hit/miss chance, although dice probability is different. On a d20 there’s exactly 5% chance of rolling any number, whereas on 2d6 there’s a curve, but statistically rolling double 6s is only 2% chance, much rarer than a Nat 20.

[@daveinsel]

the lack of d20 usage is my only complaint about Dungeon World. The 2d6 roll is objectively better. I just love the d20.

[@snakeoi1sean]

Then switch the values around a bit, maybe make a short table for critical success and failures and add a d20 when you play (is what I'm thinking).

[@crowgoblin]

You can you a d20, adjust the targets... 1-10 miss/fail 11-15 partial hit/success 16-20 full hit/success It’s the same 50/50 hit/miss chance, although dice probability is different. On a d20 there’s exactly 5% chance of rolling any number, whereas on 2d6 there’s a curve, but statistically rolling double 6s is only 2% chance, much rarer than a Nat 20.

[@WaitingforArmageddon]

You are what I have been looking for in a RPG reviewer! Thank you for being you!

[@pattersonleong8898]

Love this review. Hits the nail, great ideas for solo RPG GM. Will test and adept to Pathfinder, WFRP, Warhammer Quest too! I realized for those partial success, as a Solo GM, I may need to find random tables for that circumstances. Great review and thanks a tonnage.

[@trouqe]

I just recently been following Adam Koebel and also just recently heard that he created Dungeon World. I knew little of it but heard great things. Thanks for the review and I may play this with my own friends.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Glad it was helpful.

[@mikehill9806]

I've played Offworlders, which is based on Dungeon World, and our veterans love it. I really want to pick up Dungeon World now. Thanks.

[@CJ_esc.artist]

Wow, going back to this video again after all these years. Do you still play Dungeon World Professor DC?

[@benvoliothefirst]

Knowing that you're on a quest for simple and fast-paced RPG's, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the 1-page RPGs like "Lasers & Feelings." Is there such a thing as "TOO simple?" Also, I just purchased Dungeon World based on your recommendation. Thanks!

[@Pokarface7]

Lol, lasers and feelings is just 1 to 3 die throw to see if you succeed and how well

[@benvoliothefirst]

@@Pokarface7 Yes. Correct. AND...?

[@bonzwah1]

I think the choice to combine attacking and defending into a single roll may be a turn off to some players. Would be fairly simple to split it up. Have the player roll their action and dont deal damage to the player. Then, roll defense at the end of the turn to determine if there is damage. The rhythm is nice too. The gm can narrate a cinematic attack and rhe player gets to describe how they will attempt to defend against it. - It doubles the amount of rolling, bur it might be worth it if people dont like the feel of having one roll be both attack and defense.

[@shamanicdreams9701]

Thanks for this review! Just ordered this game. Seems very interesting.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

You're welcome. It's very innovative and I loved it (even though my players didn't).

[@craigsisco1894]

Thanks for the review! And presenting the masses with a different way to dungeon delve. I bought this book solely for the Fronts section. A valuable tool for modeling a living breathing world for the heroes to thwart the Doom…or Dooms. 😅

[@Lazarus178]

Strictly speaking, your HP *can* go up very slightly if you choose to increase your Constitution when you level up, but you're only getting one additional HP each time and you often have better attributes to be raising.

[@LeMayJoseph]

No no no, Dungeon World is absolutely designed for first-time players. The reason there's no sample character sheet is because there's no need for one. The way the character sheets work, you only need to fill the sheet in and the instructions are on the sheet.

[@cybermerlyn2]

I have often thought that substituting the dice mechanics from the Quest rpg into Dungeon World would give players the feel of the d20 rolls with the resolution of DW mechanics. I would be surprised if someone out there is not already doing this.

[@jeremymullens7167]

A lot of the details seem like Dave Arneson’s game. He didn’t like increased hp and gave characters more abilities leveling up. I think he also used damage adoration.

[@agsilverradio2225]

The armor absorbing dammage part, sounds *more* complicated than armorclass.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

It CAN be in a large group.

[@TironCruvi]

Great review! Have you ever read/played Apocalypse World, the game that the engine running DW comes from? I've had so many great sessions with that game, and so I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

No. Have not had the privilege.

[@jerramiemiller]

Good Video as always. Ive been trying for a long time to adapt something to modern/scifi/post apoc. This seems to be much quicker and streamlined. However, it doesn't account for a criticals. Any thoughts on this specifially using the DW mechanic? Or does combat speed account for these types of big hits due to only a 25% chance of success without consequence?

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

The big hit IS the critical. My thoughts on the DW mechanic is new players love it, older ones want their d20s. For rules-light apocalypse I recommend "Death is the New Pink." Nice little game. Index Card RPG also comes with sci-fi rules. Thanks for watching!

[@TorianTammas]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I have had different experiences as old and new players did not warm up to it.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

TorianTammas Full disclosure: my players HATED it and let me know. They wanted their d20s back!

[@zaqcausey8514]

Dungeoncraft is the best channel on KZbin Hope that does enough Im so drunk

[@tristanevans5024]

Love Love Love Dungeon World and the companion piece Class Warfare

[@terrybeal2252]

I totally want to run a Macho Women with guns campaign. 😂😂

[@lucaskorte2202]

It does make me a little sad that ttrpg players don't want monster illustrations in their manuals. As a professional illustrator, one of the things that inspired me to draw and take up art was the old ad&d monster manual from the 70s. Feels like one less opportunity for me to make something cool, and one less opportunity for people to make a living. I'm sometimes disappointed by how barren the art direction can be in some game manuals. I'm surprised to find out people prefer that.

[@jbirkins]

The natural 20 thing is pure pavlovian conditioning. It's a dopamine hit just like a slot machine jackpot or social media like. It will understandably take time for the conditioning to build. Once it does, players will be shouting "boxcars!" even though in craps a 12 is usually a bad thing.

[@RottenMechGaming]

Great review thanks for the info. Dungeon World is a great game!

[@commonweakness9060]

very interesting vid. and a lot of great comments. having never played DW it seems like there is more freedom for both players and DM's. some people will be into that...others not so much. when it comes to the 2d6 vs 1d20, why not convert a d20 to the same % that work for the 2d6? a little homebrew to get what you want...everybody is happy-ish. thanks again for the vid. i will be buying a DW book today.

[@paavohirn3728]

The basic mechanic is fantastic! It's genius! It's a lot of fun for players and the GM. But the character creation and advancement are really unsatisfactory and it's one more system where the damage reducing armor doesn't work. When you have a small damage die and can't get through armor, that's worse than too high AC you rarely hit. After trying DW out I've never stopped trying to bring the best elements into a d20 system.

[@HowtoRPG]

Thanks.

[@matthewmarks4868]

As a DM, I don't have time for a D&D campaign. If my players wanna play, then they are gonna play Dungeon World. It is too easy to run, with too much flexibility for all the players. My only complaint is.... No. No complaints. A game played is better than no game at all. ;)

[@natersart6854]

Thanks for explaining the mechanics, I'm a visual learner. There are a lot of great elements to this. I think I'll hodgepodge something together for a oneshot to test it out.

[@ichifish]

If you haven't already checked out DW, I recommend watching Roll20's let's plays of it. Really helped me get a feel for the system.

[@GattacaKain]

When creating a character, can a player examine the rules and determine the best way to do what they want, a.k.a optimizing?

[@BewareTheCarpenter]

Having only 3 stats for each monster makes prep work easy, but doesn't it get monotonous? There's no different strategies to take down different monsters, no difference between a small/fast/ smart enemy vs big/slow/dumb etc.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

There are other rules. I want to be fair to the designers. I just didn't get into details. Reviews need to be short.

[@amberjones4067]

I think the philosophy of Dungeon World is more you don't the enemy to have +3 intelligence or +3 wisdom to make it smart or cunning, you can just play them as smart or cunning. In other words, for your own prep you could take an ogres stats, put a note at the side saying "loves to eat sheep and dwarfs" and play as targeting those creatures first.

[@TorianTammas]

Beware the Carpenter - Yes it does. As soon as one tried awhile it gets very repetitious as beside the colouring of the GM it is the same.

[@israelmorales4249]

i came from the future ...this reminds me the system of succes by PF2E and the new siystem from CR Daggerhart

[@godfreemorals]

I think that DW is for old hands who want a narrative driven game that is rules light, as someone else said, because we're time limited people now! And I think that Quest is the same but for brand new gamers. That game looks very user friendly. Perhaps this isn't that and maybe (just maybe) the reviewer (Prof DM) hasn't quite got the manner of playing the narrative way that DW requires. Personally I played a lot of games other than D&D, like White Wolf games, and these made less about the blooming dice rolls for the better.

[@tankatim13]

Couldn’t you convert the 2d6 into a d20?

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Great question. No, because of the bell curve. New video, btw: m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4LLlWxoaqeGrM0&start_radio=1

[@kravenbludd]

That figurine reminds me of Michonne from the Walking Dead.

[@override367]

I think you could probably find some Middle ground between dungeons and dragons and dungeon world that wasn't so viscerally repulsive to players who are very opposed to their rolls hurting them. Especially in the way dungeon world handles lots of weak enemies. I like minions and d&d but it still raises complications especially with the caster power scaling. Since I use virtual tabletop anyway, I have toyed with the idea of minions who have hit points but if they're hit with a weapon attack they simply die. So you can't kill all of the minion ogres by casting fireball however they will die in a single weapon attack

[@DrRotwang]

"Macho Women With Guns" is a terrific game, just like "Xanadu" is a terrific movie -- it is what it wants to be, shamelessly, on roller skates. ...okay so only one of them features roller skates. BUT THE POINT STANDS.

[@blinddog4288]

Always time well spent watching your videos. I think I would love the game but fear my players wouldn't. Like you mentioned - everyone likes rolling a d20 and scoring the crit.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

It's a GREAT way to introduce new players to the game. Very quick combat means more play in less time.

[@themcchuck8400]

If your players NEED to roll a d20, then you can about the same results as follows. 1: Critical failure (You can't have your strawberries without your bananas.) 2-10: Failure 11-16: Success with complication 17-19: Success 20: Critical success (Players do love their nat' 20s.) You can simplify the system even further into a single d6 roll. 1-3: Failure 4-5: Success with complication 6: Success

[@snakeoi1sean]

I will buy a copy based off of this review. Thank you.

[@oldercloudify]

I ran Dungeon World with my own published setting, Mort Tanis. It's a fun game, but it breaks down when you have larger fights. I'd definitely use miniatures and terrain to give the PCs a better sense of what's going on. My PCs didn't like the game either, to be honest. For some reason, one of them hated the term Move. Semantics.

[@strygian192]

Prof DM, forgive me if someone has already suggested this but how about this conversion: 2d6 10-12 success 7-9 success with complication 1-6 fail, gain 1xp Use instead d20 20 critical success , monster gains complication 15-19 success 11-15 success with complication 1-10 fail, gain 1xp

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks for commenting. I LOVE talking dice probabilities! I tried a similar conversion myself. the problem is 2d6 will produce a "7" 40% of the time and a "6" or "8" 30% of the time. I know this because I play a lot of Monopoly. A d20 will produce ANY number exactly 5% of the time, making the yield curve too broad. Also, it would screw up the Target # concept I take from Index Card RPG, which I think is a better game. That's just my two cents. I want to make it clear I REALLY respect you and think you deserve a reply. Cheers!

[@strygian192]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 No worries, I've watched your video where you went thru some stats bonuses and number translations like a boss and I'm sure you are correct, was just thinking how to address the d20 addiction. Actually I've watched most of your videos, as I have just started running a game after a 20 year hiatus and find your videos concise and beyond helpful. Hands down my favorite channel for game content. Has given me hope to adding some seriously cool mechanics and crafts to our game, thank you for replying and doing these videos!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

@@strygian192 I don't think you can beat the d20 addiction. I used to play WFRP, but my players LOVE d20s. It's just too iconic.

[@strygian192]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 agreed! 2d6 is the methadone of the dice world. Players will soon be back in the streets, joining 5e and Pathfinder games with strangers just to get a fix. Ordering index card RPG book instead

[@dalerimkunas]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 the point that we want to emulate though is the RESULT of the roll, not the number. i.e. fail, succes with complication or succeed, and we want the "center" (success with complication) result to be the "stickiest", or most likely to happen. They way to do this with d20 is to just make success 17-20, success with complication 8-16 and fail 1-7. This gives you more of a bell curve to the result, which is the 3 categories making the odds of success with complication more likely.

[@SolosferaRPG]

Great review, it was what i need!

[@tomdulski3729]

Distinctly remember not enjoying that game system.

[@jamesrizza2640]

lol rolls be 10 to 12. Love your videos great review, never played Dungeon World sounds interesting especially the 7 to 9 situations.

[@jackplant8045]

I played a few sessions recently and really enjoyed it, the rest of the party... not so much. I've been playing D&D since 2nd edition so was used to characters having not too many options mechanically and needing to come up with 'moves' as part of the narrative. I think players used to 5e where every character has a lot of action and bonus action choices felt that they weren't able to do as much with such a simple rule set.

[@johnwhite2412]

Hit points: I believe a character’s hit points is based on his class and her con modifier - not con score.

[@luke_skywhopper]

I had to do a double -take reading the rules the first time, but it is based on class die + constitution score.

[@morecringe89]

After throwing dices for three hours, I am ready to try DW. The book is 20 dollars and one book 😂.

[@calebjackson3895]

The biggest problem I can see with determining the enemy's success with the player's dice roll is that you can't fudge it... ...Holy crap, you don't fudge rolls, do you?

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Nope.

[@SaltyBoiJohns]

I just don't get why we need to scale towards infinity like a DC super hero...

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

I concur.

[@maxducoudray]

I am endlessly frustrated that the "authors" of this game don't do a more conscientious job of crediting where it comes from. This is a reskin of Apocalypse World by the brilliant Indie designer Vincent Baker. It was a clever idea to adapt it to a D&D setting, but the creators of DW never mention Baker, who created all of these systems and innovations. By implication, they take credit for the design of a system they did not create. I don't even mind that their game is more successful than the original, but they really owe it to Baker to invoke his name whenever authorship is mentioned.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Max Maloney I have to check that out. The way I recall it, it says, “powered by apocalypse world” a few times, including on the cover. But I haven’t looked in a while. I could be wrong.

[@Arnsteel634]

I like some of what I see. But I can’t comprehend the text. It’s so confusing to read

[@mlfetlesjdrenbref1306]

Wow, this is a mix of D&D, Hero Quest & Olivier Legrand's Solomon Kane; all three rolled into one? I'm in! Great review, keep up the good work!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks!

[@trashpanda5869]

My only problem is how the game doesn’t have any difficulty class

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Yes. That's true. It's a different way of thinking--and one of the reasons my players did not like it.

[@ar_xiv]

Macho women with guns looks sick actually thx for the tip lol

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

You can probably find it on eBay. I think rolled up characters for it but never played. My buddy owned it and the follow-up expansion "Renegade Nuns on Wheels."

[@garrick3727]

Although I like some of the concepts, and I am all for things being simple for the DM, I think Dungeon World is a little too simple. It reminds me of the Lone Wolf RPG (or books) where you roll a dice and both you and your opponent take damage from the result: roll high, and they take more damage than you, roll low and you take more damage. It's an elegant system but I never did like it in practice. There are many occasions where you make above average rolls and still end up dead because you had low health from a previous encounter. Also, the same damage for all weapons based on class is a bit odd. It would make sense if there were, say, three different classes of weapons (small, medium, large), but why is a fighter with a dagger better than a thief with a dagger? You could even have it so that there are two damage amounts per class, one for class weapons and one for non-class weapons, so a fighter would do more damage with a sword than a dagger, and with a thief the situation would be reversed. I'm not sure what the advantage of having different damage for each weapon is though - it is hardly a difficult concept.

[@Zilevi]

I think playing Dungeon World purely by the numbers would have it seem very simplistic. But the rules are broad because the game is so focused on the fiction. When you know might get hit if you go straight in to fight with low health, then you need to think up ways you can avoid the fight or play it dirty so that you don't have to roll. on the same note a fighter with a dagger might not be "better" with it if all he's doing is charging straight in, because the Dagger has a very short reach. He might have trouble getting in close or even get hit jsut getting close enough to wield it, even if he does more damage when does hit. Also it's on the GM to be creative and sometimes make hard moves that are other than more damage if given the choice, since they're usually basically balancing the fight as it's happening if it needs to be balanced (sometimes players just charge in even when you tried to warn them...). And the class based damage dice I feel is there to reinforce the role of each class. It even says in the Character Creation overview part about choosing a class, that you're "The" Fighter or "The" Thief in the world. A fighter's thing is to do damage. A thief is stealthy and backstabs. (Not saying they can't do anything else but you get the point...). Also some people just like a more mechanically structured game, they can be simpler too in another way since you know what you can try and usually know the possible repercussions before-hand. This just a GM's perspective though, since I've only run Dungeon and Apocalypse world and not been on the other side of the table... But this is the feeling I get from the people I've played with. Ps. And if you wanted to, you just described everything you needed to homerule the damage dice. ;)

[@krisredmond1840]

Dungeon World is Apocalypse world flavored as D&D. It is not a retro clone or it's own thing. There are many games powered by the Apocalypse World engine. Sadly, fans of AW tend to dislike dungeon world and fans of D&D dislike DW. I hit the same wall you did and had to find people Brand New to ttrpgs to enjoy it.

[@Frederic_S]

I will never stop playing TTRPG's but I will also never going to run a complicated game like DnD. That to me is just to much crunch. No matter how complicated you make things. In the end it all comes down to you having a 0 - 100 % chance of success. The only question is, how long does it take you to find out if its 40 or 42 % chance of succeeding .. just before you role a 20 on your D100 ...

[@VeeInterstellar]

DND is flexible and can appeal to a lot of different play styles; so long as the DM can do the work to make that play style function. I'm trying to be kind here cause I actually loath this about DnD. It puts a lot of work on the DM to make the game the group will be playing. My good experiences are because of a DM who could make the game; and my bad experiences are from either a bad DM or a DM who's DND is different game from my expectations. Dungeon world is based solely in a more narrative style of play. And because it's focused on one type of experience; the work to make that type of game work is already done for the DM. Now the DM just has to run the game; rather than make it. For people who prefer their DnD games narrative driven; they're gonna be more receptive of Dungeon world. But for groups that prefer a more dungeon crawling based experience or players who prefer optimizing and stuff, Dungeon world is gonna be a big miss. Because that stuff is just not there. Tho tbh, most DnD players are not receptive to different systems in my experience. Unless they're either very mechanically familiar; or the theme and setting is radically different from what DnD has by default. Or both.(And even then it can be a hard sell) And so Dungeon world can be a very hard sell because you're going to have to answer the question of "why don't we just play DnD?" Even if your group is the sort that prefers more narrative driven games. Plus a players first experience with any game is going to be character build; and many long time DnD players will look at Dungeon world and see restriction rather than freedom. Because at first glance it doesn't look like you get to make many choices at character build, because mechanically speaking you often don't. And so then the players can get stuck in a negative spiral. Where they see the differences as exclusively negative, rather than just different. I don't say this as a judgement, i think it's a totally normal response. I feel like Dungeon World is, like you said, best for new players; or groups who love other PbtA games (or just other narrative first games) who have a hard time going to (or back to) DnD because it's not inherently narrative focused. That's been my experience, I somewhat loath DnD now because my old group was narrative first in the extreme. I mean I have fun while actually playing it still xD But I'm the first to suggest a different game.

[@john-lenin]

It’s a watered down version of the PBTA system that tries to make it more like traditional role playing games.

[@Agaton0815]

I Would say: its a version of PTBA that set the focus to Adventure and Dungeon Crawling.

[@rhinoxrifter356]

Interesting that the better target market is not who the game is marketed to. Hard way to make a buck. My feelings about the 10-12 versus the natural 20 are similar to your experiences. I liked the system but didn't love it. The players I've got did not like the speed at which everything goes to shit when things go to shit.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Interesting. It IS fast, and although I'm a fan of fast, it might be TOO fast. I kinda like the idea of the character taking damage on a low roll, though.

[@rhinoxrifter356]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I do too. I think that Dungeon World pretty much checks the box between The Black Hack and full D&D. After watching your review I pulled out my copy and started rereading it. It feels a bit fiddly with basic moves, racial moves and fronts and yeah. I do like the resolution system, essentially a B/X morale table on steroids. I also like xp on a failure. Our mistakes are the only thing we can call our own.

[@lpslpslpslpslpslps]

DW is pretty good but the paladin is very clearly OP

[@charlescrawford1788]

I remember MWwG. Wasn’t a bad game. 😂

[@john-lenin]

“Falls into a bottomless chasm.” Obviously that can never be an option in a role-playing game based only on a die roll.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

It is in mine! That happened just last month.

[@bonbondurjdr6553]

Hello, sir, Professor Dungeon Master, second time seeing this video so this comment is not related to it but... where do you get your miniatures? They look pretty detailed and awesome! :D