Durin's Bane vs Smaug - Who Would Win?

Durin’s Bane and Smaug the Golden are both powerful creatures of chaos in Middle-earth, but who would win if they fought each other? Let’s discuss it! Thank you all so much for watching, let me know your thoughts on this in the comments below! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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[@whiteknightcat]

Let us not forget that in the wars of Beleriand, Balrogs commanded dragons in battle, driving them on with their whips of flame.

[@jakealter5504]

Or using them as mounts

[@Swatta637]

Haha! That's pretty good.

[@adamsinger123]

Now THAT would be a thing to see done properly onscreen. Seems like not in this universe, unfortunately, but perhaps somewhere out there…. (Can anyone 🤔 get pirate copies of shows from other parts of the Multiverse?)

[@yomamma.ismydaddy216]

And targaryens ride/command dragons as well, lol, but I think we all know who would EASILY win in a fight btw them

[@jeremygerlach5488]

This is like saying an orc could beat a cave troll because it's the one holding the whip. The dragons are fragments of Morgoth himself, which is why they were able to be controlled, not necessarily because Balrogs are more powerful. This really comes down to whether you think a fragment of a Valar is more powerful than a Maia.

[@calebowen2006]

I think the easiest solution to this question is just to look at how Gandalf acted when faced with both problems. He was only supposed to use his powers in extreme cases and otherwise exist merely as a guide. When faced with the problem of smaug he sends some dwarves and a hobbit to deal with it, when faced with a Balrog of Morgoth he steps in and takes direct action to oppose Durin's Bane. If he felt that Smaug was as powerful and as dangerous to the peoples of middle earth as Durins Bane he would have probably intervened himself

[@ShamanJeeves]

Great use of the details of deeper lore to back your argument. This is why I love Tolkien's legendarium, there's always some detail that I haven't considered that can either cement or destroy an argument.

[@Atenejin]

To be fair though, he was forced to face Durin's bane - his initial plan was to sneak quietly out of Moria. Also, on the grand scheme of things, recapturing Erebor was not that much important. Fo Gandalf, it was more important to make sure that they distinguish the threat of the Necromancer (Sauron).

[@calebowen2006]

@@Atenejin one thing to realize though is that Gandalf didn't intend to sneak past a Balrog, only orcs. While there were tales of Durin's Bane, the dwarves did not know what it was and neither did Gandalf until it broke the magic seals he put on the doors behind them. The moment he realized what was following them through Moria he decided he could not let it escape the caverns unto the world of men, he did not feel the same threat from Smaug

[@greytiger10]

@@calebowen2006 I think he also fought the Balrog because he was afraid of what would happen if the Balrog got the Ring of Power too.

[@Mitchg511]

Very good point.

[@rafaelgustavo7786]

Durin's Bane fought the gods in the wars before the creation of the Sun and Moon. Participated in the siege of Utumno against the Host of Maiar and Valar. Fought the Noldor and armies of the War of Wrath (and survived). IMHO, brute force and fire don't work against the Balrog. It withstood a fall from the roof of Balin's Tomb, as well as a fall from the bridge at Khazad-dum (and he was not destroyed). His "death" was due to Gandalf's magic and the use of Glamdring (a recurring theme of enchanted swords that can smite magical beings).

[@matthewsalton887]

It has been shown that mortals can kill Balrog’s (and therefore by extension, Maia). So I have to disagree with you, I think Smaug would take one bite out of Durin’s Bane and he’d be done.

[@ericsmith8129]

A mortal killed Smaug so that cancels that theory out.

[@mateuszslawinski1990]

While it is possible to kill Balrog, you have to be already exceptional in some way; meanwhile you just need an ordinary human to kill a dragon.

[@aidangriffiths5075]

Gandalf himself told a party including Aragorn, legolas, gimli and boromir "This foe is beyond any of you", but happily sent some dwarves and a hobbit, who are for sure lesser than the fellowship, to take on Smaug Durins Bane wins

[@louisbrown4620]

Fire isn’t dragon fire.

[@lisboah]

Smaug could be beaten by a black arrow fired by a human. Durin's Bane was defeated after Gandalf, a Maiar, spent around 10 days fighting him.

[@CallmeKenneth-tb1zb]

Just to play devil's advocate here for the moment, because I agree with you, but Gothmog was slain by Ecthelion, and Elf, and Gothmog was most likely considerably more powerful than Durin's Bane, being High-captain of Angband, and one of the chief Lieutenants of Morgoth. Elves in the First Age were powerful, but not as powerful as a Miar.

[@30noir]

Only because a scale was missing which is incredibly contrived.

[@Tick421]

But that was preordained. So he had deep magic on his side.

[@lisboah]

@@CallmeKenneth-tb1zb The Elves from the First Age were top-tier badasses. Fingolfin managed to fight and wound Morgoth, Finrod wrestled with a wolf and killed it with his bare hands...

[@Adamadam-zc6pe]

​@30noir that was an invention of the movies. In the books his belly was covered with treasure and jewels. One spot happened to be exposed.

[@CallmeKenneth-tb1zb]

Durin's Bane because Balrogs were a creation of Ilúvatar , corrupted by Morgoth. Dragons were creations of Morgoth alone. The Miar are some of the most powerful creatures in the Legendarium, and no less so than in the twisted form of a Balrog. One of thing to consider. Smaug's main method of attack was breathing fire. How does fire harm a being made of fire?

[@HRHDaviaTheYounger]

I love your point and am not disputing you, but what of Saruman death? He was a Maia.

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

@@HRHDaviaTheYounger he became greatly weakened and yhat is why his death was that simple

[@EvidensInsania]

That's not how I view it. Dragons were a part of Morgoth, they had his spirit inside them and I think that is probably greater than a Miar spirit.

[@BudTezzy2345]

The Witch King of Angmar was human, but gained the power to defy Gandalf The White.

[@matwatson7947]

​​@@HRHDaviaTheYounger He didnt die as such. When he was stabbed his physical body died and his spirit became so weak he could no longer hold or even hope to gain back physical form. When he "died" a grey mist rose out of his body (his spirit). It tried to turn West but was blown away and dissipated. His spirit is like Saurons now. Technically being alive but so weak and feeble it can't interact with anything

[@finrod55]

Perhaps another point in favor of Durin’s Bane is that Gandalf says something that implies the balrog had great magical powers. In Moria Gandalf says [the balrog] detected his shutting spell, and cast a counter spell ( “The counter spell was terrible. It nearly destroyed me”). This makes me suspect “Advantage balrog” since any powerful Maia would have an intrinsic advantage over a physical being and it’s not clear what magic Smaug might have had at his disposal. ON THE OTHER HAND the Elves Ecthelion and Glorfindel killed balrogs in single combat,and Finrod held his own a good while against Sauron. Of course these were not ordinary Elves but among the mightiest of the Eldar of the First Age, when the firstborn were at full strength. I guess it’s a pick ‘em.

[@kaidorade1317]

My money is on Durins Bane! Not only was his final battle a stalemate, he gave Gandalf just enough XP to level up and become Gandalf The White! Also can’t wait for next week’s video!

[@Cristian_Cioaca]

Durin wins he has sword and fire dosnt efect him

[@sweeperboy]

You make a good argument, and I'm not saying you're wrong about it, but I think it's more interesting to do the counter-argument of why Smaug _might_ actually win: - 1. Yes, the Balrog needed to be killed by another Maia (Gandalf the Grey). However, that Maia was in a diminished form compared to his original form of Olorin - this implies Olorin would have had less difficulty handling the Balrog than Gandalf the Grey did. 2. Other Balrogs in the Canon did not need to be killed by Maia. Many were killed by Elves - to be fair, First Age Eldar of Valinor (like Ecthelion and Glorfindel), but still not Maiar. Some like Ecthelion killed _multiple_ Balrogs - thus their status as Ainur who were at the start of creation didn't seem to help them. On the other hand, I don't know of very many Dragons that were killed in hand-to-hand combat by individuals. Glaurung was stabbed to death (with an enchanted sword) from below and thus surprised rather than fought against and prior to this his only defeat had been as a young dragon with incomplete strength against a host of dwarves in fireproof gear; Smaug was killed from afar by someone with a special arrow who knew where exactly to aim it; Ancalagon was cast down by someone who as practically an angel wearing a holy jewel. 3. Forget the Peter Jackson depiction of the Balrog as this immense fire-demon. It would have been 10-12 feet tall "only" - and still immensely powerful but not something that would rival the dragon in size. 4. If the Balrog did not know about Smaug's weak spot, would his weapons even penetrate his armor? 5. I don't buy the argument of dragons merely being drones or puppets of Morgoth. I think they were gradually bred and given greater intelligence; so they were sentient beings _corrupted_ by Morgoth rather than _created_ by him. if they were just drones, I don't think they would have been that effective when he was cast down and locked out in the Void. 6. Dragons have powerful magic too, and cunning to go with it.

[@skaraturbo]

They also have incredible senses smell hearing and sight.BNut ofc the Balrog is probably very intelligent to a Maia that has lived since the dawn of time!

[@Procrastinater]

Not sure why you think Gandalf using all his might (which he never did before or after) is weaker than his true form of Olorin. That said, Gandalf managed to kill the Balrog by giving literally all he had, fighting without any inhibition as he died shortly after his victory. Every single being that defeated a Balrog died for their troubles, even a Maiar were no exception. Do not mix Tolkien's earlier and later writings. Balrogs were once thought of as some greater demon elite infantry, numbering in the thousands. Later they were reduced to "perhaps three, no more than seven" and the combined might of which could drive off the void spider Ungoliant, a being Morgoth himself feared. Ecthelion slaying multiple Balrogs and Gothmog were written decades before Lotr, when it was written Balrogs were not even Maiar, but beings created by Morgoth himself. (which was later changed as Melkor/Morgoth in later writings could not create, only corrupt) Tolkien just never got around to change his writings in the Silmarilion to allign to the new conceptualization of Balrogs. As such, using the depiction of Balrogs from the outdated parts is of little utility, they are completely different creatures/beings. As for the Balrog's size, they have no set form or size, being able to "draw themself up to a great height" or spreading their shadows out like wings to such an extent that it could fill the cavernous halls of Khazad-Dûm. While I am not suggesting a Balrog could turn himself massive like a mountain, limiting them to 10-12ft when they are embodiments of fire is probably the wrong way to consider them.

[@skaraturbo]

@@Procrastinater Still it was the Dragons who Morgoth himself said was the strongest weapon he had saved against The Valar who is stronger then Maia who for a while turned the tide against the mightiest army that has ever existed in Tolkiens writings Most of the Balrogs was alredy beaten or had fled and still the Dragons managed atleast for a while beat that army back!

[@skaraturbo]

@@Procrastinater Btw it never said in Silmarillion atleast. That Etchilion killed many Balrogs it only said that he and Gothmog fighted eachother to death and both died! And if Silmarillion does not count then we dont have much to go on he wrote new stories or letters that changed stuff in Lord of the rings to should we not count that either?

[@Procrastinater]

@@skaraturbo A host of flying dragons lead by Ancalagon the black drove the forces of the Valar black. That is numerous flying dragons. If you want to compare that way, then compare it to how a host of balrogs would have fared. Beyond that, a flying dragon can very well be more effective against chaff but less so against mighty beings, of which the Balrogs were almost always the ones to kill. So using that as a way to figure out who would win if two fought is not really a worhwhile endavour.

[@melkhiordarkfell4354]

Considering Glarung had disobeyed Morgoth and went out early that one time shows they had free will and souls, unlike say the moment Aule created the Dwarves and they could move if Aule wasn't controlling them. In the case of dragons, I imagine like Orcs, Morgoth took an animal that was already rather monsterous and corrupted them.

[@simonbeecroft5566]

good point

[@cm275]

Smaug seems far too intelligent to be a mere drone of Morgoth. I’d expect his creations to be little more than animals, if that.

[@melkhiordarkfell4354]

@@cm275 Well we know animals in Tolkien can be very smart, take the Ravens in the Hobbit, clearly free thinking and wise, same with Wargs even, Tolkien makes it a big deal in the Silmarillion that speaking with words is a huge deal. It's not crazy to think the original creature for the Dragons were equally wise if not outright speaking creatures.

[@skaraturbo]

@@melkhiordarkfell4354 Did it not say in Silmarillion that Dragons were made from corrupted giant eagles?

[@deadbrother5355]

Nameless things.

[@stormruner9183]

It would be so amazing to see a full on battle between the dragons (Glauruhg, Encalagon, Smaug etc.) and all the Balrogs.

[@frenchsterr4708]

Agreed! I think The dragons would get wiped out.

[@KeacePeeper]

It would be cool. But I can't help to think that the Dragons should win. To me at least Glaurung seemed to be the most effective of Morgoth's Servants even if he was no Ainur. He had physical and magical prowess as well as a cunning and sly intellect. Balrogs seemed to be far more blunt tools compared. So if the dragons all inherited some of this variety in theri Evil from the Father of Dragons then they should gain an upper hand in such a Battle.

[@Jordan-vr7ip]

I think Glaurung would destroy any balrog except Gothmog.

[@skaraturbo]

@@frenchsterr4708 No way the Dragons even stopped the army of Valar for a while and Ancalagon was so huge that he destroyed a mountain when he crashed down!

[@bibbster2571]

​@@frenchsterr4708 ancalagon could easily step on all of them, he could take em alone imo

[@Thomas.Wright]

Notice that both Dwarf kingdoms were destroyed by evil fire.

[@anthonyp3066]

Good point and I noticed Only when the Dwarfs become greedy. They dug too deep in search of riches and uncovered the balrog. Also, the arkenstone drove the dwarfan king mad with "dragon sickness" and Smaug invaded. interesting the lessons or peril from the greed of the dwarfs.

[@Thomas.Wright]

@@anthonyp3066 No, the Arkenstone did not have the power to drive people insane. That was just Thorin's own greed getting the best of him, and his strong sense of family honor locking him into his choice of actions. The "Dragon Sickness" was only a movie convention, because they wanted to absolve Thorin of actual wrongdoing. But no, Thorin was a jerk. IN the book, he was pretty much an arrogant jerk from the very beginning, and that only changed when he saw the Men, Elves, and Dwarves fighting together against their common enemy and realized he had been wrong.

[@anthonyp3066]

@@Thomas.Wright I was not talking about Thorin but his father as quoted by Balin. Thank you for your speedy response

[@marcusblackwell2372]

Honestly, Smaug wouldn't even wanna fight when he took over Erebor. He'd only do it to protect his hoard

[@TheSmileMile]

There was a video about a week back of a guy driving, and someone threw a bottle at his car, which, he then drew his pistol and fired it while driving, with his eyes closed. I just imagine Bilbo coming by, quickly stealing a cup, and Smaug blind firing fireballs now.

[@malcolmt7883]

And then, Balrogs are introverts, only fighting when Morgoth made them, or when some dwarfs broke into his house.

[@marcusblackwell2372]

​@@malcolmt7883 Yes

[@KeacePeeper]

@@malcolmt7883 Gothmog seemed up for some slaughter when ever he got the chance but yes Durins Bane was far less inclined to take action on his own.

[@LadyAhro]

​@@malcolmt7883 Two reclusive housemates screaming at each other when coming into unwanted contact comes to mind. Like Smaug coming into to take something shiny with terrible results 😅

[@crusader2112]

Hey, I've been watching your videos recently and I'm a new fan of The Lord of the Rings. Keep up the great work. Peace ✌🏻

[@istari0]

One of the issues regarding Balrogs is that originally Tolkien conceived of there being many of them, hundreds, perhaps even thousands. Later, he reduced that number greatly but I don't think he ever propagated that change throughout his writings. So, it becomes harder to assess how powerful a balrog truly was. I also would not assume they are all equally powerful. As their captain, Gothmog would have been the greatest among them. Durin's Bane brought an end to Khazad-dûm by himself, albeit with the advantage of surprise and striking from within, so I think he was one of the most powerful ones. On the other hand, we don't know the origins of Dragons. I'm not a fan of the idea that they were basically extensions of Morgoth because I think the survivors of the War of Wrath would have died out once Morgoth was imprisoned in the void. My personal theory is that Morgoth managed to crossbreed some of his Maia servants with some other creature to create dragons and they were able to reproduce on their own afterwards so they were independently thinking creatures. Another point I think is in the favor of Dragons is that Morgoth bred them because he realized his existing forces weren't strong enough to defeat his enemies and that was with Balrogs. Morgoth wasn't willing to take part himself (other than his duel with Fingolfin) so he came up with Dragons. I don't think there is a clear answer. Too many unknowns and what-ifs.

[@jacobhoover1654]

Morgoth made dragons from the sea serpents of Ulmo, it says something like that in an appendix. Breeding fish for bigger fins that act as wings could have been what happened but crossbreeding with a Maia could also explain it.

[@ImperatorPenguin]

And now I'd want to see Morgoth pit a Dragon and a Balrog to see who was strongest.

[@matwatson7947]

Epic Rap battles of History: Durins Bane VS Ancalagon the Black ... BEGIN

[@SyberiusRex]

It's literally like a kid doing his sound effects while clashing his toys together .

[@kevinboudreaux7860]

Which dragon? Smaug was the last and smallest of the great serpents. No balrog could do anything to Ancalagon who was the size of a mountain

[@Parasmunt]

@@matwatson7947 Gothmog v Ancalagon V Ungoliant V Eonwe (Cage Fight)

[@LamaswithHands]

Love the work brother keep it up!

[@SenoritaJes]

I just happened to refresh my feed and saw this video. Yay! 🎉

[@georgemercer402]

Personally I think the two of them are so evenly matched that neither one would be able to easily take the other down; it would come down to sheer dumb luck to find the final victor-- Durin's bane being able to find Smaug's vulnerability requires a keen eye that only the most observant can see

[@Diegoromir]

People tend to think that the Balrogs were more powerful than the Dragons, but I humbly disagree, Melkor created the Dragons because the Balrogs were not enough to stop the armies of the Noldor in the First Age. There are two instances that, in my opinion, show that dragons, in general, were more powerful than balrogs: First in the Siege of Gondolin, at one point in the siege, the Noldor held one of the gates even with Balrogs attacking and even killing several of them, but when the dragons arrived, they had to retreat. Second, in the War of Wrath, the armies of the Valar were pushing Morgoth's forces, balrogs included, but when he released the winged dragons, the armies of Valinor, composed of the mightiest forces in Arda, were push back. Smaug was much larger than Durin's Bane as evidenced by a passage in the Hobbit which says that even in his youth he could not stick his snout into the secret passage of Erebor, I believe this would conferred an enormous advantage for the dragon and I must remember that Gandalf feared for Rivendell and Lothlórien if Smaug allied himself with Sauron, even though both realms had the protection of Rings of Power (and that I must remember that dragons were known to have destroyed some of the seven rings of the dwarves, and Smaug was the most powerful dragon of the Third Age). Smaug was defeated by a well-placed magic arrow, more the result of chance and luck than the power of his adversary, Bard the Bowman, similarly, Túrin used stealth to thrust his sword under Glaurung and defeat him, not engaging him directly. If I had to gamble, I'd put my money on Smaug.

[@CommonSenz]

If we want to go with metaphors, Balrogs are elite supersoldiers and dragons are nukes. Dragons are better for mass destrucion, but a balrog could just "dismantle" a dragon before it goes off. I mean the potential of destruction does not necessarily grant the dragons an edge against a balrog in a 1v1 situation.

[@Diegoromir]

@@CommonSenz I think there are more powerful dragons and less powerful dragons, I see it like this: any balrog is stronger than a smaller and weaker dragon, but the bigger and more powerful dragons are stronger than the balrogs.

[@CommonSenz]

@@Diegoromir true. that was the real weakness of dragons.. it took an enormous amount of time for them to grow. Glaurung revealed himself prematurely AFAIK, but once Ancalagon was ready to go, it took a literal miracle to stop him.

[@mtrunkello]

I would bet on smaug as well. Even if balrogs are maiar they are not immune to damage. Saruman was a maiar yet a normal dagger killed him. Smaug could easily crush the balrog to death or grab him and drop him into a lake. He is immune to fire so that immidiately negates the balrogs strenght. Balrogs do not posess any unique weapons to pierce smaugs armored scales.

[@GuyChooo]

Bruh, Morgoth could've just got there and decimate the kingdom of Noldor instead of creating armies which weakens him due to him giving powers to his armies.

[@scorcher_11]

Definitely Durins bane. He's a Maia with insane powers and uncountable years of battle experience. He took out Khazad-Dûm arguably the greatest of the dwarven kingdoms as well. He's got a whip to bring Smaug down and a sword to finish the job. I understand why some people might think Smaug, but for me it's Durin's Bane all the way

[@BudTezzy2345]

Smaug did basically do the same to Arabor and the King under the mountain. Along with Dale too

[@neme6ben]

I agree, it would be an interesting fight, i just dont see smaug lastijg forever against a balorg, maia

[@daggerwulf338]

I dont know though. Durin's Bane was roughly equal in power to Gandalf, and I dont think Gandalf could have beaten smaug.. or he would have without it destroying laketown, imo.

[@shawn092182]

​@@daggerwulf338 So Bard, a mortal Man, beat Smaug instead?

[@daggerwulf338]

@@shawn092182 no, but the special 'magical' arrow did If bard didnt have that magical arrow, he couldnt have killed smaug.. and gandalf doesnt have a magical arrow either

[@mirygarrido4836]

Awesome as always!! Thank you for your videos 😊❤

[@sageofcaledor8188]

Excellent video!

[@gaslichttorwachter5939]

Durin's Bane vs Smaug - Who Would Win? certainly not the dwarfs

[@davidmcintyre8145]

Gandalf stated in the books that the dragon was a foe he was not equipped to face yet he faced the balrog

[@WhoIsCalli]

Nice battle scenario Yoystan. Great stuff as always

[@chadalicious374]

The video none of us knew that we really needed. Thank you.

[@c.ladimore1237]

both are impervious to actual fire so that kind of attack would be useless. however, durin's bane would never have known of the one weakness smaug had (which was dumb luck from bilbo & having one black arrow left), so in open air setting, smaug could just fly around (avoiding the whip) & bite durin's bane's head off.

[@istari0]

Well, to get close enough to bite Durin's Bane, Smaug would have to bring himself within range of the whip.

[@mtrunkello]

Exactly

[@mtrunkello]

​@@istari0 and what do you do exactly with a whip? It would be the same if you chained yourself to an f35 jet. It would have ripped your arms off.

[@cheesesauce1560]

I feel as this is a very wrong take. Durins Bane was 9ft tall, whilst Smaug was 90ft, and over 400ft long. I really think his size is being really underestimated. The Balrog is a 1 bite, and I think he'd crush him in his jaws easily. Also I don't think Gandalf has a chance against Smaug, but he did beat Durins Bane. Also, Smaugs death was more plot device than anything, as it was because he had a convenient missing scale, which he was too arrogant to recognise. I think with him knowing about what a Balrog is, he would never let his weakness be exposed.

[@paulbrickler]

Nice job, Yoystan! I enjoyed this matchup because there is not, on the surface, a clear advantage for either of them. But I think that you took a great approach to reasoning this out. Even though I wasn't convinced for either side at first, by the end of your video, I think that you're correct. (I think that you are incorrect about dragons being drones, but that's just my opinion, which I'm prepared to be wrong about, and I think also a whole other video)

[@TheLysineContingency]

Great video! I had to think about it but came to the same conclusion. If Ungoliant was driven off by a group of Balrogs and Durin's Bane was able to slay a Maiar, it is a strong statement to it's power. Smaug wouldn't be an easy adversary though

[@orrointhewise87]

"We come to it at last. The great battle of our time." Hmmmm both deal with fire and I'm assuming are largely impervious to it? I'd say Smaug might win but barely; he has wings, more agile, smarter, and has something to fight for which is his gold. But either way it would b one of the most interesting mini epic battles. Middle Earth fight night! Let's go! 😂

[@MichaelDouglas-24]

Yess! Do a versus playlist. Id like to see that

[@VoiceoftheRings]

Cool Video! Great IDeas for this.

[@shibalikchakraborty5344]

It's an amazing watch. Great video.

[@DraconimLt]

Dragons clearly acted indipendently though, Smaug made his own decisions after all, so they had to have been 'alive' not 'drones'. My take is that they were corrupted from already living creatures and upped in both power AND intelligence to the level of sapience. They weren't 'created' by Morgoth like the humans and elves were by Eru, they already existed, so the Flame was not needed.

[@dmdebruijn]

Here Yoystan shows his deep knowledge and understanding of Lore.

[@tincano-beans2114]

There is something to be said about a children's bedtime story villian vs a demigod from a thousands of pages long epic...

[@sethnaffziger1402]

I gotta say Smaug, I don't see what a fire whip or a flaming sword could do to a dragon, he breathes fire. Smaug is far larger, capable of flight, and cunning enough to pick the fight carefully. Dragons shifted the tide in the war of wrath, not balrogs... it was very clearly stated that Smaug was basically invulnerable to weapons but for the small gap that Bilbo noticed and informed Bard of via the thrush, whom only Bard could understand... basically a series of very lucky coincidences lead to the slaying of Smaug. assuming they have to fight hand to hand an immense, flying, mountain crushing beast with scales harder than diamonds is going to absolutely crush a 10-12 foot tall maiar, and the fight only occurs if we're assuming his fire did nothing to the balrog at all. let's all keep in mind that Gandalf chose to fight the balrog to the death, he did not even attempt such a feat with Smaug, meaning it's very possible dragons have some resistance or immunity to magic. Also, Gandalf saw it necessary to remove Smaug from the board before the free peoples fought against Sauron, Durin's bane had no such consideration.

[@rikk319]

It's a rock-paper-scissors thing. Gandalf, for example, could deafeat a balrog, but he never even suggested he could take on Smaug by himself. He did mention in the Hobbit that he looked for a warrior to take on Smaug, but they were too busy fighting one another in those days, making it seem like a sufficiently-powerful swordsman could defeat a dragon. In the time of the War of the Ring, Tolkien mentioned that Aragorn, Prince Imrahil, and Eomer were so skilled at arms that none of them took a wound at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, so I'd place each of them as capable of defeating a dragon single-handedly--but that the same time, none of them could have defeated Gandalf one-on-one. As I said, it's a rock-paper-scissors thing.

[@gustavramirez2891]

Top-notch breakdown, sir, love it.

[@timothyconover9805]

Interesting. In Morgoth's army a dragon is not a warrior, but a weapon of mass destruction.

[@Gigas0101]

I feel that Smaug would defeat Durin's Bane. "A well-placed shot" sells short how Smaug was all but invulnerable save for a small patch devoid of scales or encrusted coins and gems, and a relic like the Black Arrow "forged by the King Under the Mountain" was needed to slay the dragon. Also, Smaug himself boasts of how all the accomplishments to his name were made when he was "Young and tender", so we could assume he is capable of feats greater than his listed accomplishments at the time Bilbo found him in The Hobbit. I don't think Smaug could slay Durin's Bane, though, as the Balrog is a Maiar and his soul would survive the destruction of his body. However, I do believe that Smaug would be able to destroy the Balrog's physical form before Durin's Bane could rend his treasure-encrusted scales and fatally wound Smaug. Either way, it would be an incredible battle to behold.

[@hendrickson3414]

Morgoth treated his dragons like prized possessions. Even angry when Glarung entered the battlefield before Morgoth was ready to reveal him. He never showed such concern for the balrogs. It's like they were disposable to him.

[@forgetmemaybe6735]

Thank you for this video. Really interesting to pit these two against each other. I was thinking about the differences between them. One of which is a fallen angel , a demon, who could be defeated, but only by one with great power, and usually backed with magical weaponry. The other is a very large animal that is decended from the originals (however still very powerful). I think that even if Smaug were to strike the balrog, I feel like it wouldn't do much damage to his immortal body/spirit. I seem to recall that Durins bane survived being crushed, etc. I think it would take something of a highly magical nature to bring him down, and I don't think Smaug has that much magic in him. If you look at Gandalfs fight, he had his own magic, a powerful elven blade, and probably most importantly, the elven ring of fire. I wonder how the fight would have gone if cirdan had not given gandalf that ring. Lastly, and this one made me giggle. What would happen if legolas fought these two opponents. Legelas vs Smaug. Smaug is dead. Legolas vs Durins Bane. Legolas dead. At the end of the day, it's all subjective 😊

[@glenn_r_frank_author]

The dwarves were the target of both of these beings. Seems it was the dwarves greedy love of riches that brought both the Balrog and Smaug's rage upon them. I assume this was the theme JRR had in mind for both of them.

[@RovingPunster]

A good assessment. I pretty much agree, although i'd probably have focused a bit more on Balrog's more spiritual/mystical nature, whereas Dragons are more purely physical. It would be a dramatic confrontation for sure, but IMNSHO the Balrog's ancient & powerful mystical nature, its savagely powerful spells, and its magical weaponry, would cause serious wounds to smaug, and I think Smaug would be smart enough to realize he had little to gain from such a fight, and would eventually just fly away and establish a new lair - esp when it became apparent that his breath weapon was totally useless against the Balrog (re: literally a spirit of flame ... the "Flame of Udun"). Also, smaug would lack similar immunity to the Balrog's spells and enchanted weaponry, so the handicaps he'd face keep piling up, despite his edge in size, strength and aerial maneuverability.

[@darktenor4967]

As regards dragons, Tolkien often talks of "the foul spirit within", speaking of creatures like Wargs and werwolves. I also believe he uses this term to describe Glaurung as well. So given that Morgoth could not create life, but dragons such as Glaurung and Smaug act independently, I always assumed that they were literally incarnate Maia. Indeed, this might be where the difference between cold drakes and dragons lies, with cold drakes being simple animals corrupted to evil, while dragons contain manifest spirits, rather like the difference between wolves and werewolves. So, a fight between a dragon and Balrog would basically boil down to a fight between two spirits, one with, and one without flesh, so would probably be mainly conducted by will and dominance, rather than physical force, indeed Tolkien suggests that most often when powerful beings clash it's on the level of mind, and will. So, I suspect the battle would be more like a staring contest, with the two striving in thought with one another, and end with one being dominated, and serving the other. My money would probably be on a Balrog to win that contest, though I suspect that if the dragon spirits are indeed embodied Maia, it would probably be a grim struggle.

[@abrahamames911]

I agree with what you're saying but I believe there were spirits lesser than Maiar described (which of themselves were not equal). More to the universe than Valar, Maiar, and the children of Illuvatar. I think these would have been one of the foul spirits within that Morgoth may have used to corrupt a drake(?).

[@darktenor4967]

@@abrahamames911 That is a good point, though it also depends upon which take of the legendarium you consider. In early draughts, found in the unfinished tales, Tolkien does talk of lesser spirits of earth and nature who were neither aligned with the Valar or with Morgoth, but independent, sort of the precursors to the Fey. I've heard one argument that the stone giants found in the hobbit were some such nature spirits, though I doubt that myself, since in a world with Ents and trolls as independent beings, there doesn't seem much need to have more mystical origins for giants, anymore than for hobbits. I suspect though he rather dropped this idea later (with the arguable exceptions of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry), talking instead of all spirits having one allegiance or another. It is possible though, that the spirits of dragons, like the spirits of werewolves were some sort of lesser order than the Maia, since a lot of times Tolkien does indicate that there were many beings of the same order who were not as great, some of whom followed Morgoth, some of whom didn't, so it's entirely possible dragons were some of those. That being said, the power shown by dragons in the silmarillion, a power to devastate armies and nature which seems greater than that of Balrogs, suggests fairly powerful beings in and of themselves, indeed as is pointed out in the review Smaug was actually a relatively lazy dragon, so even if the spirits of dragons were some sort of order similar to the Maia, I don't think their power was that much lesser, in the same way Ungolient's power was pretty much equal too, and indeed at one point surpassed Morgoth's.

[@NicksFitnessYT]

Gotta give it to Durin’s Bane. Also it’s worth mentioning that Smaug was pretty small for a dragon, though that’s probably due to his younger age and general laziness

[@Nimbus1701]

Depends on purpose, tactics, and honestly environment (imo). I'll start by saying I'm no proclaimed "expert" of lore, but I don't think that matters here. If we just "assume" everything discussed (Smaug has the missing scale, and Durin's Bane is trapped until released) that is enough. Here's why..... we have no actual number metric for intelligence. We assume due to the Balrog's previous existence they were essentially "angels of a sort" and a dragon is a "force" or I'd consider a type of "nature perverted" to bring about destruction and chaos. If we apply what we think "angels/fallen angelic beings" are, one would assume they have the edge of intelligence. Having said that..... Smaug's conversation with Bilbo he essentially uses simile to describe himself (Claws like spears, wings like a hurricane, etc..... and he breathes fire). That brings me to my last points, which are purpose for fighting (both serve the dark lord), and are content in their "dweillings" in the 3rd age (until disturbed). Last point, which is the type of environment they are fighting in. If they fight in close proximity, I would assume the power of fire cancels each other out..... then you have the ability of shadow (maybe an "aura") from the Balrog and the ability of the teeth, claws, tail, and wings (hurricane force winds) of the dragon. I have no idea what the aura of shadow would have on Smaug, but at least in the Hobbit movie he mentions (a darkness is coming), so he is intelligent enough to probably recognize it..... could he avoid it...... I'm not sure, since there is no real evidence of how it would impact a battle if another enemy (say.... Shelob or Ungoliant) if they had it, but the void/darkness of Ungoliant was enough to threaten Morgoth, so it does seem it is powerful enough to impact a powerful being even if they have a resistance to it. Leads me to the biggest point, which is that Bard defeated Smaug with a Black Arrow due to the missing scale. I don't think there is any mention that that a Balrog could use a bow, but they are intelligent enough to use them. It is very much a David vs. Goliath scenario to me because in no way was "David" or Bard the superior combatant, but they won by exploiting a weakness of their opponent. So, if we assume Smaug is even slightly intelligent, then all he would have to do is fly around and stay away from Durin's Bane until it reached a precipice (similar to the bridge) amd destroy it's footing, then it falls. If it falls for days, months, years, then why engage it because the battle is won. If the purpose was to kill one or the other, then I'd probably go with Durin's Bane, but it would likely have to conjure a shadow type weapon instead of fire ones to defeat Smaug.... just depends. It's all conjecture and fun, and there are no real mathematical "stats" to determine either. It is entirely possibly they could kill each other in the conflict, which is probably what Sauron would have pitted them (and Shelob) to do to each other had he destroyed the world of "men" because he wouldn't want any contention to his power at that point, and thise beings would have been the only power left to challenge him. Just my thoughts...... and sorry for the long post.

[@Aaron-fn4mz]

videos like this make me realise how much of a nerd I am hahaha so cool to think about a battle like this and the possible outcomes

[@lol101lol101lol10199]

I suspect The Hobbit might have been an even shorter book if Gandalf the Grey had the ability to just _beat up_ Smaug with his sword and staff and shiny bolts of magic like he did with Durin's Bane. "I smote my foe against the mountainside. So, anyways, Erebor and the gold are unguarded now and you can all just move back in and take it. Enjoy!"

[@patriarch7237]

My counterpoint: Gandalf and Durin's Bane are equally matched as each slew the other at the limit of their powers. However, at no point in the Hobbit is it intimated that Gandalf could directly go up against Smaug, even theoretically. Although Smaug is not Ancalalgon the Black, the latter is seen as the turning point in Morgoth's long war and the lynchpin of his strategy, even though we know M has an unknown number of balrogs at his command. This suggest that at least in this case, one dragon is presumably counted as a much greater threat than a "mere" balrog. I can't imagine a flaming whip is going to worry a fire-breathing dragon, regardless of what is carrying it. It isn't clear how intelligent the Balrog is - in the PJ film it appears as a monster with the impression that it is a mindless raging beast, but the book isn't so clear - it applies a "counterspell" to the door Gandalf has sealed, which suggests thought and purpose rather than hammering the door down. It doesn't speak, so it isn't clear if it has retained its original maia intelligence/personality like Sauron (or even the wizards to an extent) or is just a mindless evil monster. However it appears to have assembled an army in Moria - the orcs are afraid of it, but don't run away when it appears suggesting it is like Sauron, and not like a "fiery troll+1" they follow to see what it smashes. What happens as the Fellowship approaches the bridge of Khazad-dum appears to be an attempt to ambush the party before they escape. The balrog seems to be part of this ambush, suggesting a degree of planning and coordination.

[@HRHDaviaTheYounger]

This isn’t far from my thoughts on the matter after a friend texted me the question. It’s all about Location. With the advantage to either, in their respective arenas. In single combat above ground I think Smaug would win for the same reason that a human can beat a gorilla, even though they been around longer and are more brutishly power than us. It’s a matter of intelligence and strategy. (Unless we are fighting them in underground. Lol). There is a reason that Gandalf avoided direct combat with both creatures. Also, Durin’s Bane would not know that he had one of his scales were missing. I don’t take into account the matter of Smaug’s death. In that, Tolkien is merely paying homage to lore. A hero must slay the dragon. That is a trope you can’t break at the beginning of a genre, when you are relying on known mythology to connect to readers.

[@NerdPirateRadio]

"who would win" i don't recall seeing these before. Fun idea, good stuff!

[@ImagineMySurprise510]

Venturing off this topic briefly I want to consider the size of Durin's Bane in the various artworks and movie of it. I can't help but think it's portrayed as being too big. It was living in tunnels in the Misty Mountains and they mostly would not be 15 feet or more high. The tunnels the dwarves carved was for them, although Aragorn and Boromir didn't have to crouch to travel them, I'd guess they were typically about 7 feet high. So this leads me to think the Balrog was about man height or slightly more, but not the enormous creature we are used to seeing. Am I wrong?

[@quigonlynn1]

Durin's Bane's exact size isn't given in the books but its definitely much larger than a man. "A dark form of man shape maybe yet greater" also later the Balrog is said to "Suddenly drew itself up to a great height" and Gandalf is also described as looking small while stood before it on the bridge. Don't forget a Balrog is also a Maiar which can change its form at will. Only the Wizards were forbidden to change form but there's no reason why the Balrog couldn't.

[@ZzaphodD]

I think Tolkien is not consistent over time here, both regarding size/power and numbers. In early writings they were numerous, later few. In book of lost tales they are mentioned to be double the height of Glorfindel, who is a 'tall' elf (whatever that means, 7'?)

[@oldspice051]

I think it says in the books that when the Balrog stood as its full height, its wings stretched the length of the hall, so I'm thinking the movie wasn't too far off.

[@diggerdog9205]

@@oldspice051 does the book say wings though?

[@oldspice051]

@@diggerdog9205 “It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall.”

[@youtubeviewer4472]

I just feel bad that the dwarves had to deal with both Smaug AND Durin's Bane

[@coreldorn3653]

The biggest thing to consider is as you said early in the video. For all Smaug's power and might, he is still a slave to the will of others with no flame eternal to grant true Free Will. As a general of Melkor, would the Balrog not be able to just exert his will, which as a maiar is considerable, to control Smaug? In support, when Sauron rose again as the Necromancer, his plan was to use Smaug as a weapon, to do so would require control of Smaug. Sauron and Durin's Bane are no different really but for the fact that Sauron was corrupted and Durin's Bane ever a servant of Morgoth. There was no guarantee the Balrog of Moria would submit to Sauron, but he seemed very confident that Smaug would. As is also mentioned about Gandalfs response in another comment shows more of the reason I think there's truly very little contest.

[@samrooney2958]

So just out of curiosity why didn't Gandalf try to 1 v 1 Smaug? I don't mean this as a gotcha question but could Gandalf have killed smaug on his own?

[@vonfaustien3957]

Gandalf went out of his way to deal with smaug and openly encouraged his companions to fight him and never feels the need to overtly draw on his full powers. He was terrified when he found out about Durins bane wanted to sneak away and when it's antagonize tells his companions to flee because it's beyond them and has to drop the act and use his actual powers.

[@claytonbarnett7084]

"Do Balrogs have wings?" FFS. I've been hearing that since the 1980s. You just had to go there.

[@mrsamaritan6881]

Dragons were Morgoth's creation only in the sense they he bred them, twisting them via dark arts from already existing creatures. So no, according to Tolkien's text, they were not "drones" and yes indeed had free will - no flame unparishable required.

[@anthonyeder8360]

Great video. Ents vs trolls would be an excellent video too.

[@matthewwilson3673]

Love the channel, did you consider doing a one character ladder video?/? Like in mortal kombat playing a ladder is one character facing opponents until they lose, you could do galadriel vs various other known characters until she runs into someone who defeats her

[@notoriousj_]

Ancalagon would destroy them both!

[@dominushydra]

Ancalagon was basically Godzilla with wings. So yeah that's a no brainer.

[@EvidensInsania]

I don't know, the movies dramatically increase the scale of Durin's Bane. In the books he's only about 9 feet tall, something a dragon like Smaug could literally just swallow in one bite. Another thing to note is how when the free peoples had Morgoth besieged in his stronghold it wasn't balrogs who broke their siege, it was the dragons.

[@marlonjormungand7845]

I think smaug (book version) wins against the balrog (book version). In the book the balrog is just a bit taller than a human i dont think it could hurt smaug a lot with fire whip or sword while smaugs phusical strenght would be too much altough it might take days for the balrog to die. To me smaugss intelligence is way higher than the balrogs and his presence and how he looks through bilbos plan and his identity stands for incredible wisdom. If he would encounter the balrog he would immediately know if it would be smart to attack it head on or drop boulders on it or spit fire on it. He is more mobile so he could try everything out and work put a plan to destroy it. I dont think the balrog would be able to force his will on smaug or something like this because drsgons are the personification of an ego trip and seem to not give a damn about even the strongest beings except morgoth. Another point is that gandalf did not dare to fight smaug but fought the balrog so imo smaug can wothstand "magical beings" and their attacks like maiar to a large extend. Also winged dragons and not balrogs are described as the secret amd most powerful weapon of angband, even almost causing the tides to turn in the war of wrath where they fought against gods while balrogs were slain in masses by elves and even humans. My money is on the dragon.

[@jessmith7324]

I would say it was a draw. CQC-wise the balrog has weapons, but smaugs armor only had the one weak spot and even then it was only given away by a damn bird lol . I doubt a balrog would get the same courtesy.

[@madambutterfly1997]

At the very least, Balrogs are more susceptible to Sauron’s influence compared to Dragons

[@dominushydra]

Wrong.

[@razatiger22]

Why would a Balrog listen to its equal? Balrogs only serve Morgoth, not his lap dog Sauron.

[@madambutterfly1997]

@razatiger22 Sauron hasn't been there equal in some time considering how much power he accumulated between the first and third ages. Despite losing his physical body and much of his strength, he was still stronger than a Balrog

[@madambutterfly1997]

@razatiger22 only one balrog, Gothmog, was Sauron's equal, but he died in the fall of gondolin.

[@razatiger22]

@@madambutterfly1997 A Balrog would only listen to Sauron if he had the 1 ring. Sauron didn't have the ring when he first learned about him. So he would have no reason to listen to him.

[@timw483]

I can't even guess who would win, but this would be one pay-per-view I'd spring for

[@peterarrivey6320]

The mountain lake actually killed and quenched Smaug’s fire/life. Whereas the lake in the deep quench the Balrogs flame… didn’t kill it but changed it. The Balrog was able to keep fighting for days after.

[@kayden666]

Have you made a video on Beleg? I don’t see him mentioned much and he’s such a loyal character and a skilled Sindarin elf, he was especially renowned with a bow even among the many great elven warriors of the first age.

[@4Bobay]

I agree. Beleg and Mablung videos would be cool.

[@rmlp9881]

Duuuude! Love the new intro!

[@theemissary1313]

Regarding a dragon like Glaurung cursing the Balrog, in Moria Gandalf placed a spell on a door which the Balrog broke in an instant. So, the Dragon's magic kinda fails against the fallen Maiar quite badly.

[@bradleysmith7170]

Don't forget to mention that the Balrog can cast magical spells such as he used during his battle with the fellowship.

[@lunafencoven]

They used telekinesis to open a door, that was about it.

[@The1AmazinAsian]

Depending on how much smaug can lift, he can just drop debris on the Balrog.

[@rufusmcgee4383]

Smaug: "My wings are a hurricane. My breath is death!" Durin's Bane: Yeah, yeah. I fought the Valar, Feanor...and Ungoliant."

[@gigachud35]

The dragons fought off the Valar after all the Balrogs were dead and Melkor was hiding away

[@rufusmcgee4383]

@@gigachud35 Yeah, except all THOSE dragons are dead. 😏

[@gigachud35]

@@rufusmcgee4383 So are almost all Balrogs

[@rufusmcgee4383]

@@gigachud35 Well, except that one, until Gandalf showed up.

[@ianheins650]

Good work dude

[@Cauin450]

There is also the fact that this Balrog is thought to be the least and last, the runt of an incredibly powerful letter. If His Captain, Gothmog stepped onto the battlefield with his little brother, I think Smaug would wet himself and a long way to the south and east a certain dark Lord would feel a shiver go up his spine!

[@DouglasCharles83]

Do a video on the Witch King vs. The Balrog. That would be interesting.

[@mc_rysiek5277]

I mean... Gandalf fought and killed (albeit at the cost of his own life) the Durin's Bane. With Smaug, he didn't even consider fighting him.

[@st.jimmy0244]

I think another factor that has to be considered is that the Balrogs are demons of terror. They can actually use terror as a weapon. In the books, Legolas was the one who recognized Durin's Bane, not Gandalf, and just the presence of Durin's Bane caused Legolas to cry in fear. Smaug has never been shown to be a particularly courageous individual. Sure, he's a "big bad guy" against those who are much weaker than him, but how would the terror of Durin's Bane affect him?

[@rocksnrolls]

Incredible argument.

[@brianthomassen2209]

During the attack on Gondolin, over 40 balrogs were killed compared to one dragon. The dragon that was killed was not the not the winged version. Winged dragons were the last and pinnacle of Morgoth's creations.

[@TheBigExclusive]

If Smaug can call upon gigantic "Ancalagon the Black" Dragon (Morgoth's most powerful servant), then how would they deal with it? Ancalagon was bigger than mountains and dwarf Balrog easily.

[@jamesricciutiGenXFed]

So Dragons are more agile with long range DPS and Balrogs are more Tanks with respectable DPS.

[@ricdiaz3721]

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[@violatione]

Flying Dragons would destroy Balrogs. Smaug grabs Durin's Bane flies a few hundred feet in the air and lets go...

[@snbond80ify]

Damn son. The dwarves had ops. 😂

[@iasonaskoutsoumis61]

According to lore both Dragons and Balrogs can be slain. In the Silmarillion the Urulóki are used as shock units, spearheading an offensive, pretty much like modern tanks/ attack helicopters. Balrogs on the other hand are described as elite bodyguard units or in the case of some powerful individuals, as military commanders. Different beings, different roles, different strenghts and weaknesses. One thing is certain: since Balrogs are fire-maiar spirits, they must have natural resistance to dragon fire.

[@1forge2rulethemall88]

3:00 While Morgoth could not create sentient life he could certainty pervert it, he created the orcs from the elves in short order, and so perhaps Morgoth made dragons from some deep thing of the Earth (Since he made them in secret deep underneath his great fortress.)

[@chidoemeka2486]

Smaug was beaten by a human with a makeshift arrow the first time he came out the castle while the balrog fought Gandalf for 10 days!!!

[@TheJacheed]

Morgoth may not have access to the source of the Flame Imperishable, but he does have access to Flame within himself. This is what the Dragons are made of: his own self. Just as Sauron and the Ring are One so are Morgoth and his Dragons are One. This magic is powerful and evil but ultimately self destructive. As Morgoth used up his own spirit and power to make more dragons he ultimately weakened himself to the point where he could be banished from the world… Smaug is a fraction of Morgoth and Durin’s Bane Morgoth’s servant.

[@corpsedesecrator2612]

I LOVE these could you do something like these: Glaurung vs Gothmog(High Captain of Angband and Lord of Balrogs of course not the Morgul Orc Commander) Fingolfin vs Ancalagon The Black Elrond vs Carcaroth Fëanor and his Sons vs The Fellowship Eönwë vs Sauron with the One Ring I would have to give it to Durin’s Bane but at the same time it depends on the Terrain where as an open field Smaug would carry an advantage but within the Legendarium, Smaug is one of the weakest Dragons as are most of what are left during the Third Age to contend with any Balrog whom themselves are still formidable Beings as we saw Durin’s Bane duel Gandalf to a stalemate in a sense both combatants resulting in death to me is far more impressive than what Smaug has done, though even among lesser Dragons in Middle Earth capable of bringing utmost ruin to cities as Smaug did I am sure Durin’s Bane could be capable of causing similar level of destruction though not as instantaneous and sudden as Smaug did as Dragons were known for the catastrophic level of destruction they caused in short span of time decimating entire forces so Balrogs and Dragons were essentially Morgoth’s trump cards but due to the fact that Third Age Dragons were not as formidable as their Ancestors and Durin’s Bane has been around likely before the Creation of Arda is why Durin’s Bane is my verdict.

[@DraconimLt]

If they could summon 'Allies' from past times, wouldn't Durin's Bane just call on his old master to come and put his pet's descendent in it's place? Smaug couldn't call on HIM because he likely never served him, or on the older dragons cos they'd not obey or even help him, he'd be the equivalent of a Chihuahua trying to command Wolves. Durin's Bane on the other hand may have fought ALONGSIDE those older dragons who might be more inclined to his side than Smaug's.

[@alessandrolocascio2226]

Might be difficult but I'd like to see a video on The Mouth of Sauron Vs Saruman.

[@burnheart2031]

poor dwarves, it must be tough having your home taken by a strong enemy

[@mariyontil]

Wouldn't Smaug probably be strongest toward the end of his life? It was then when he got his waistcoat. Also, he says at one point: "Girion Lord of Dale is dead, and I have eaten his people like a wolf among sheep, and where are his sons' sons that dare approach me? I kill where I wish and none dare resist. I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today. Then I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong, strong strong." So, Smaug was "young and tender" when he invaded. Gandalf earlier implies that Smaug used to be smaller than he is now, suggesting that he was really only a dragon tyke then, one who, so I think we can assume he was "young and scarce half-grown, for long and slow is the life of the dragons", as is said of Glaurung. It was not until around 195 years later when Glaurung is said to be full grown. Peculiarly, Smaug dwelt in Erebor for 171 years. So if, for example, Smaug was a few years older in the Sack of Erebor than Glaurung was in his first emergence, that might give us a good idea for how old he was.

[@maxpiemuse9584]

Yes, I think he missed this. Dragons get stronger with age.

[@mariyontil]

@@maxpiemuse9584 According to Farmer Giles of Ham (which, in all fairness is not in Middle-Earth), dragons continue growing all their lives. I will say that either way, Smaug probably has a size advantage.

[@shanenolan5625]

Thanks.

[@michaelsavage7884]

Honestly wonder about the Dragons being Morgoths drones? How much his malice would lessen in them over time or the magic in middle earth?

[@paulbrickler]

My own personal pet theory is that the original 'First Age' dragons, once created by Morgoth, were inhabited by some of those 'fell spirits' (Maiar) who he corrupted to his service and which were not already Balrogs, and that after the First Age, they 'multiplied after the manner of the Children of Illuvatar'. So, they would have free will. However, there is admittedly one very large gaping huge hole in my theory. And that is, of course, that there is not one word written by Tolkien to support it. At least, not that I have found. It makes sense to me inside the theology and the myth of the Legendarium, so it seems like it might fit, but I don't have anything to back it up.

[@jamesnielson7060]

Though I would have to agree, with out even calling allies into the picture, Durin's Bane would have the main edge being an actual being with its own life. The point I must suggest is that dragons tend to grow stronger with age. Smaug had, basically, done away with the main weakness of dragons after he took the Lonely Mountain. I'd debate the coin would have been a safer bet above ground after that time.