Duskmourn MTG Spoilers | Many Marvin Combos and My Least Favorite Card From the Set

[@BaltanTwo]

The black enchantment removal will continue until pronunciation improves.

[@WendigoNet]

PFFT

[@samueldavidson6502]

Endooring Coorage

[@Optimator7]

THIS

[@double2helix]

He absolutely butchered Trazyn

[@HouseFullaFrogs]

17:38 this is the exact issue I've been having with the execution of most of the recent sets, even as far back as March of the Machine. There's nothing inherently wrong with Top-Down sets (I could argue that Bloomburrow is a top-down set drawing on Redwall and the like), but the recent approach to their implementation has felt less immersive and more like a theme park. Step right up and take a picture with your favorite villain in a cowboy hat! See the Dimir Guildmaster doing his best Columbo impression! Remember movies from the 80s? WotC does too, and now you can remember them as referenced in card titles which only make sense if you consider them outside the context of the genuinely interesting world we created, now reduced to a backdrop for references and puns and cheerleaders which take two soldiers to kill in combat. Edit: I want to be fair. Wizards has always printed reference cards in their top down sets (see Grave Bramble in original Innistrad), but the themes of the referenced concepts were woven into the worldbuilding. There wasn't a card meant to be a stand in for Victor Frankenstein, but rather, Stitchers and Skaabs were a part of the world referencing Frankenstein. Duskmourn as a world could exist independent of a technologically advanced society or 80s movie theming, where Innistrad could not exist without Gothic Horror.

[@alfredosaint-jean9660]

I read a comment of someone saying that Wizards does it better when it focus on what is already in the new world, rather than on how the recurring characters feel in this new world. May explain why Bloomburrow was more engaging. I don't remember the last time I have seen so many people enthusiastic by a main character.

[@lesternomo6578]

I’m hoping this is just a kind of phase or they just realize that the appeal of these types of sets is something they have already worn out

[@JStack]

It went from tasteful integration to gross nostalgia bait

[@ildathet]

Duskmourne is especially grating because the human look like DBD survivor played by underpaid real actor photoshopped into cards

[@eliaspadari2761]

​@@alfredosaint-jean9660 i guess MTG has a Lore.

[@CyberNewType]

Seth: I hate, hate, hate, black having enchantment removal cause it breaks the color pie also Seth: Oh look, a blue enchantress, that’s great. 😅

[@Graatand]

Blue drawing cards??!? Perish the thought!

[@arghanothername]

That’s a false equivalency though. Blue drawing cards and doing things with enchantments is within the colour pie. It’s a new specific action for monoblue, but well within the expected actions blue could do. Destroying enchantments, on the other hand, is a complete break for black, and continues the trend of weakening the colour pie.

[@discoviolenza1984]

So you're fine with blue cutting into white and greens part of the color pie by drawing off enchantments, but black removing enchantments is a bridge too far. Calling this an auto include in mono black deck seems like a wild statement to me.

[@khub5660]

It honestly is an autoinclude, but it's not for a bad reason

[@casuallydone468]

@@khub5660 I'd disagree 2 vs 3 mana on a removal spell is a big ask, and Black is starting to get a lot more access to enchantment removal in general.

[@khub5660]

@@casuallydone468 1 more mana for instant speed interaction along with only 2 life is a major upgrade. Idk what you're smoking, but you gotta lay off it if you think this card isn't as good or better than Feed the Swarm

[@Graatand]

But card draw has always been blue even when there’s been conditions like “your opponent casts a spell and refuses to pay the 1”. Why should “an enchantment enters under your control” be an unacceptable condition for a color that usually gets uncoditional card draw?

[@Magnet977]

I'm down for black enchantment removal. If green and white both get removal that can target any permanent on top of a whole bunch of other excellent removal, I think its okay for black to have 2 target cards that can hit enchantments (one of which costs you life equal to its cmc!). Black still can't deal with artifacts at all save for 1 single card from masters so I think we'll be ok.

[@ben_clifford]

Yes. Green and White have both been able to efficiently deal with either artifacts or enchantments since the 90's, and Red has been great at destroying artifacts since the beginning. This has left enchantment as the safest non-land permanent type, and for color-balance purposes, I like seeing that handed to Black (because Blue does and should have a hard time dealing with permanents).

[@arghanothername]

The problem is that the colour shouldn’t be balanced by all being able to do everything, otherwise, the colours start to lose their identity and the art of balancing a deck starts to become too easy. Part of what makes MtG interesting is the decisions you make in deck building. For example, I can build mono-colour, which gives me great consistency, but should leave me with structural weaknesses, based on what my colour can’t do. Alternatively, I can build mutlicolour, at the cost of more complexity and variance, but I get the potential strengths of multiple colours.

[@Magnet977]

@arghanothername agreed. The issue is though that the fact that Beast Within/Generous Gift exist already violates that idea and kind of throws it out the window. White and Green shouldn't get the ability to remove any kind of permanent they want compared to other colors based on the original intention of color separation, but here we are.

[@ben_clifford]

@@Magnet977 Beast Within is an acknowledged design mistake. But Generous Gift has been possible since the beginning. White had different cards that could destroy all 4 permanent types way back in Alpha, albeit with drawbacks for lands and creatures. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just adding historical context.

[@Optimator7]

Three colors can destroy artifacts. Now three colors can destroy enchantments. It's FINE. Also, one of the original tenets of Black is that it can do anything... for a price. Enchantment removal is fine.

[@gs9444]

Comparing Withering Torment to Beast Within is WILD. Not the same targets (2 types vs 6), not the same costs. Tell me you would play Withering Torment or Feed the Swarm if they weren't B (or R). I feel like Seth defeated his own argument against it twice this video. First, he talked about how U is now a core enchantress color, adding more non-creature threat vectors for standard and edh. Then, he talked about how he thinks B enchantment removal should be mostly unplayable, like bad edicts. Feed and Torment ARE bad removal spells, but they are playable so they're too good for Seth, who fairly admits he's just biased against all of them. I don't want to disagree with Seth here. i'm getting sick of B being on top of constructed, and I agree the modal edict-type effects are where it should live (would love to see a Pharika's Libation for 1B). But now, "B shouldn't touch enchantments" is becoming the new bitter old magic boomer take. The game has changed A LOT in 5 years, and honestly, B not having the ability to interact with 2 core card types would border on unacceptable with how crept permanent threats are now. 100% agree on aesthetic. The monsters and horror elements are on point, but the survivors are corny in an ugly way.

[@LilTuba]

Let's not forget these too: Magic boomers: Magic 30, Pinkertons, the game being power crept into oblivion for the last 5 years: I sleep Digital-only cards, not having only 2 colors being able to remove enchantments: real shit?

[@ausiidnd]

You're spot-on with the fact that Blue becoming an Enchantress color and Black gaining the ability to remove Enchantments are just two sides of the same coin in what is clearly an Enchantment-focused set. The fact that this Enchantment removal is more playable in an Enchantment-focused set than, say, Shatter the Oath was in Wilds of Eldraine, is actually a good thing!

[@dac2007]

Black has discard though It was already able to "touch" enchantments

[@casuallydone468]

Feed you could argue outside white, 2 mana sorcery kill a creature or enchantment is versatile outside of white, and would be playable in literally any monocolor except white.

[@krunchyapples]

There's just so many strong enchantments now that not being able to do anything about them ever if you are in black just sucks and would make it unviable in the current state of the game if you had zero options for interaction against such a prevalent card type. Green used to just be about big stompy creatures, but now it gets to do pretty much anything that any of the other colors can do but better. That in itself is another issue

[@Tyrant372]

IF there is 3 colors that remove artifacts, there should be 3 colors that remove enchantments, It makes sense. It ALSO MAKES SENSE that because of commander this needed to be fixed. Now when black starts to be able to kill artifacts THEN we have an issue. Black shouldnt be any worse than green or white at removing enchantments. It is 1 OF THE 3. Not a lesser of the 3.

[@chzoronzon9472]

Make it Blue then... but not for the strongest color, which has been black for many years, at least for Standard Black has the best removal, the best creatures, the best hand disruption and the arguably the 2º best card draw...making it even better by nullifying one of its few weakness is a bad decision

[@Tyrant372]

@chzoronzon9472 blue already can bounce any permanent..... blue doesn't destroy or exiles things. Also historically blue has always been the strongest color in magic. It being the only color with both card draw and catch all answers. Black doesn't have the strongest creatures, that's greens domain, always hs been. It doesn't make sense for blue to be the third enchantment remover at all.

[@alexanderfisher7261]

I think black should get a version of abrade but for enchantments. I think enchantments being hard to remove tends to make games worse.

[@Shimatzu95]

Yes

[@StingRay0000]

Really surprised that it wasn't the BLUE enchantress effect that felt over the top. To me, Essence Tracker is such a massive color pie break. Like, yeah, I get that blue draws cards. But enchantress effects like this have only ever been a green/white thing. Also, not to mention the mana value is extremely fair for arguably the best version of this effect, as it triggers on-enter rather than on-cast. I'm a complete 180 on the opinion of black not needing to have enchantment removal. Whatever makes that entire archetype easier to manage, the better. Enchantments are too safe and too powerful

[@RasmusVJS]

The fact that something *hasn't* been done doesn't mean it's a color pie break. Blue is *the* drawing color, and Blue having access to Constellation effects (aka "get a trigger when enchantments enter") has been a thing at least since Theros, so logically, they can have "Constellation - Draw a card". By your logic, every new card is a color pie break if it isn't a direct copy of an old card.

[@erictherecreationalhistori7821]

We’ve had four years of black enchantment removal and it has yet to cause any significant problems in a single format and has seemingly only helped designers create formats where enchantments are neither irrelevant nor unbeatable. There have been many color pie breaks/mistakes throughout Magic’s history, but there’s a difference between a break in the color pie and a *very intentional* change in the color pie. If the color pie never changed Magic as a whole would be significantly worse. I think detractors of black enchantment removal need a better argument than just “it’s different” when so many of the recent changes have been overwhelmingly positive across formats (blue vigilance for limited, red & white card advantage in commander, and, I’d argue, black enchantment removal in everything from limited to commander.) Edit: I’ve seen several comments to the effect of “they’re just letting every color do everything” and I just cannot take that seriously. They gave the color of removal the ability to remove a problematically difficult-to-remove permanent type while reiterating that black’s inability to remove artifacts is important for both gameplay and flavor purposes. It’s called the slippery slope *fallacy* for a reason.

[@jdgarrison9913]

I see what you're saying, but let's compare Green Enchantment removal to Black's. Okay, they lose two life. Big whoop. Black usually doesn't care about the 2 life. Now, let's look at Creature Removal for both colors. Oh wait, Green's might as well not exist, because it's a Fight or Bite spell, and the Black deck just killed Green's creature with the fight/bite spell on the stack.

[@erictherecreationalhistori7821]

@@jdgarrison9913 What you are describing is the fact that, despite adding enchantment removal to black, the colors are still distinct from each other. Green’s core strength is that it gets the biggest and most efficient creatures, but its core weakness is its over-reliance on those creatures. Black’s core strength is that it has very broad arsenal of tools available to it as long as you’re willing to pay additional costs (life, sacrificing permanents, discarding/milling cards, etc.) but its core weakness is that those additional costs will add up over time if they’re mismanaged. I agree with you that 2 life doesn’t feel like enough of a cost, but it’s good to know that the black color pie councilor has said that he believes black overall needs to pay higher costs when it comes to paying life specifically.

[@OwlpoAnimations]

@@jdgarrison9913are you arguing with their point??? Green was never meant to be good at efficiently removing creatures, that’s white, black, and sometimes red. Artifact removal is white, red, and green. Enchantment removal so far has only been white and green, adding black makes sense.

[@TonTon-gb1hv]

​@@jdgarrison9913still waiting for the comparison of black's enchantment removal to Green's

[@dac2007]

​@@TonTon-gb1hv 2 mana: kill an enchantment or artifact/flyer Vs 3 mana: kill an enchantment or ANY creature. Lose 2 life. One card is sideboard, the other is maindeck Guess which is which

[@MajraMangetsu]

I see no problem with Black having enchantment removal, literrally a new player told me that back not having that was BS in her opinion. And I remember telling her that Wizard would covert it at some point. Glad to see I didn't lie.

[@hobez64]

I'm pretty sure that Wizards is purposefully making Black the Tertiary enchantment hate color. We've been getting quite a few in recent sets. They're not the best at it, obviously, but there's a clear direction to make them better, so I don't understand why people still consider it a color pie break. The color pie is allowed to change. Maybe Feed the Swarm was a break 4 years ago but we're getting more options now so it's clearly intentional

[@VincentWolfeye]

Black enchantment removal is as colorbraky as white drawing cards.

[@hobez64]

@@VincentWolfeye That argument feels very flimsy because "White card draw" has been kept primarily to the fields that white is already in its own pie for. 90% of white's draw is "Draw a card if you do this thing that White is already known for doing"

[@OwlpoAnimations]

@@VincentWolfeyeIt’s not a break if they intentionally are trying to make black the third, it’s a color pie edit/change. They realized only two colors being able to effectively deal with enchantments is stupid compared to artifacts having three.

[@collinbeal]

​@@VincentWolfeyethey're allowed to extend the capabilities of the color pie, since they put a lot of thought into it.

[@jyrinx]

I mean … yes, it's clear they're doing it on purpose. The difference between breaking something and changing something is _entirely_ down to opinion. And if they have a good reason, I'd love to hear it. “It's weird that enchantments are hard to remove” is a bad reason when the other side has “the color with the strongest creature removal should struggle with other removal.”

[@itsdeanbeaches]

Why does green get everything? Black can't touch enchantments but green gets to do everything and no one says anything. This new card is a beast within, not even and yet no one says anything about beast within.

[@Optimator7]

yup

[@manvsmanatee1793]

Beast within is literally a known color pie break

[@barbedwire9975]

I’m really curious if anyone can actually give me a reason as to why black having enchantment removal is bad. And no, “it’s a colour pie break” or “they didn’t have it before” is not a reason. It’s merely pointing out something happening and doesn’t explain why it’s bad for the game. The only reason I’ve ever actually heard is that it homogenises the colours, which would be fair except there’s still a lot of things black doesn’t deal with like artifacts. And like Seth said in this very video there’s basically always been 3 colours with Artifact removal and no one ever decreed that to be the end of magic or a secret plant for commander. Isn’t it possible, keeping limited in mind, that it’s kind of a bad play experience for over half the game to be unable to interact with one of its key permanent types?

[@chzoronzon9472]

That's the price you have to pay for the immense advantage of using just one mana color...if you don't get it...well, you don't

[@barbedwire9975]

@@chzoronzon9472 I mean there’s 3 colours with Artifact removal and that’s never been considered overpowered. Like we’re talking about a 3 mana instant here the card isn’t exactly optimal removal so there’s still a definite cost it’s just no where near as feels bad as having almost half the game completely unable to deal with a core permanent type.

[@SpellboundTutor]

My argument for Withering Torment? Any White or Selesnya deck in Brawl running 20 Banishing Lights when I'm playing Rakdos. Just let me have *one* thing back.

[@thatsedzoonth]

My favorite part of every spoiler season is when Seth says a new card is exactly the same as an old card…. Then lists all the ways it’s different. Never change!!!

[@discoveringreality4988]

I do like the idea of black removing enchantments but not artifacts. I feel there'll be a lot more in the future. And it'll be more like "which drawback can this deck afford". I'll add that red is the best at removing artifacts, where black is the worst here.

[@whaleofdarkness]

There is black artifact removal. You just have go back to 1993. Gate to Phyrexia.

[@hollowoat]

@@whaleofdarknessouch reserved list

[@DylanHunter64]

​@@hollowoatand Phyrexian Tribute

[@Shimatzu95]

So when can we expect a black boardwipe that hits enchantments (austere command style maybe)? 2026?

[@casuallydone468]

@@Shimatzu95 I feel like a black boardwipe that forces saccing enchantments. We already have Extract the Truth, Invoke Despair, Mire in Misery, Pharika's Libation, Baleful Beholder, and (Now) Vile Mutilator. Something like XBB each player sacs X Enchantments would be on pie with how much enchantment saccing Black has been given by this point.

[@Lucasbpc]

In Seth's perfect world Black would have access to more land destruction instead and we would see a color-shifted Armageddon...

[@TheBalogna7]

I am suuuuuper stoked for both Arabella and Enduring Courage for my Otharri commander deck. It's also nice to see an enchantress that doesn't have green in its color identity.

[@MelficeN7]

Agree the humans look absolutely awful. I expect the death race set to still be equally full of tropes. At least Maro acknowledged this problem in mkm and OTJ, hopefully the sets that can be influenced by this feedback are influenced, too late for duskmourne and the death race set.

[@collinbeal]

Yeah, the State of Design article went over how there's a line they discovered between resonant top-down design and jumping the shark, and how they're going to attempt to cut down on the wackiness moving forward. I expect you're correct, and that Death Race will still suffer from the same foibles, but that Tarkir will see a return to form. I'm crossing my fingers that the Space Opera set will be campy, as that is inherent to the genre, but not obnoxiously so, and that the cards will seem grim and mythical.

[@nsmjohn]

Re black enchantment removal: it depends, if you're ok with Beast Within then you have to be ok with Withering Torment. Beast Within is a massive break, both targeted creature and land destruction on an instant for green, when they don't even have sorcery speed of either. Black doesn't need more after this but I think this was a fair inclusion.

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

Fight spells:

[@hobez64]

​@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle Fight spells aren't really a counterargument because it's very flavorful (for lack of a better term) for green to have that kind of removal, making sure they have the biggest creature by fighting the opponent's smaller ones. Saying "Green has creature removal" and listing fight spells is like saying "Blue has enchantment removal" then listing Boomerang + Counterspell. It's an option they have but they really don't have a wide reaching way to handle it efficiently like something like White

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

@@hobez64 it's almost like different colors are better at different things... I swear the color pie is a forgotten artifact at this point

[@Icameron259]

I think WotC's reasoning for black getting enchantment removal is entirely fair, i.e. that enchantments did indeed only have 2 colours capable of answering it consistently vs 3+ for every other common (nonland) permanent type, and black will have less efficient options than white or green. Withering Torment is now the strongest MonoB enchantment removal, and it's still considerably less efficient at that task than the options in white or green - what makes it good is that it's getting very close to on-rate for the other mode of destroying a creature, which black can already do extremely well.

[@hobez64]

@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle I don't think you understand the color pie. A card game can both be balanced by cards being able to only do certain things, as well as by them only being able to do things certain ways. Both of those are valid metrics of keeping the pie intact

[@jakob187]

Withering Torment is incredible. I'm thankful that we finally have, like, FOUR spells in black for enchantment removal (Feed The Swarm, Pharika's Libation, and Debt to the Kami, and now this). TARGETED removal is important. It's not like there are a million ways to remove enchantments in black, but aside from these, what other genuine ways are there to deal with enchantments in black? Great print. Also, the gremlins card is sick. 4 mana for 3 bodies with haste AND menace. Solid.

[@princeofrain1428]

I'm glad to hear that someone else agrees with me. A whole 4 cards is not going to suddenly make black super efficient at removing enchantments, and I think 4 is about the average number of enchantment removals in non-control decks.

[@dac2007]

Discard them

[@TheCubicalGuy]

Don't forget, roles also trigger essence tracker, so any instant that creates a role token also works.

[@colinbrown5646]

Seth's "Old Man Yelling at Clouds" hatred of Black enchantment hate always gets a laugh out of me. Definitely the most "back in my day" opinion Seth has.

[@ДаняСмирнов-ч4ю]

As a limited player I feel like a mono b enchantment removal card in an enchantment-heavy set is a necessity

[@Optimator7]

Exactly

[@NoLifeLeft13]

I love the contrast between mono blue enchantress being completely fine transitioning directly to mono black enchantment removal being absolute blasphemy.

[@derekcline950]

Valgavoth's Onslaught actually seems really good as a finisher in green aggro. Since they keep the counters, flipping cheap keyworded creatures is great (like Pawpatch Recruit, basically 1 mana to give the creature trample and pseudo ward). Also, playing it for 5 right after a Sunfall is a great way to beat control.

[@RaphaelAleixo]

The thing I hate the most about the black enchantment removal is that it allows you to target your own enchantments. You shouldn't be able to get rid of your own demonic contracts within monoblack.

[@Greg_Ulmer]

On withering torment- There's tons of enchantments in 60 card formats, and they've been making enchantment removal better and better. I don't think it's just 'cause of commander. And i don't get the argument that it's not playable in 60-card (...so why make it?), but also it needs to be weaker.

[@thetom341]

Yup. In 60-card formats the (somewhat valid) argument was that you could take care of enchantements with discard, leaving you vulnerable to a resolved enchantment later on. But in Commander you can't play targeted discard against 3 opponents, and color identity rules mean you can't splash to cover your weaknesses.

[@Zosh_]

Yes, but it still should be black's weaknesses to not be able to deal with enchantment. The point of the color pie is that each colors have their strengths and weaknesses whether there's a lot of enchantment in standard or not. If they're a lot of enchantments in standard and black is struggling, that's the point of adding a second or third color to your deck. To patch the weaknesses while creating a weaknesses with your mana consistency.

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

​@@Zosh_ And they decided that they don't want black to be vulnerable to both artifacts AND enchantments. Given that red has vulnerabilities to enchantments but not artifacts, it makes sense to decide to let black have the reverse.

[@dac2007]

​@@TheAverageGuyTAGthe thing is this card is not only enchantment removal, it's also creature removal So it basically means black decks are shoring off a weakness without a real opportunity cost

[@RasmusVJS]

@@dac2007 There is a cost. This is worse than Murder if you don't account for the enchantment flexibility, so a creature deck will perform better against a Withering Torment deck. But the color pie question doesn't have anything to do with opportunity cost of individual cards anyways, so I don't know why you brought it up.

[@baconsir1159]

28:02 - Ironic that Seth is fine with Beast Within, when green destroying creatures is also a color pie break. Not to mention Beast Within being WAAAAY better than Withering Torment in Commander.

[@BeCurieUs]

I don't know that he is fine with it, it is more he is using it as an example of another color pie breaking thing that he doesn't like but also should go into every deck cause it is good?

[@baconsir1159]

@@BeCurieUs In the color pie break video, he was very clearly more antagonistic towards black enchantment removal. When asked if magic would be better without it, he said “but I play it in every deck….”. I still think he mostly hates mono black enchant removal because he barely plays mono black, and it therefore isn’t his problem. Or maybe just because he’s a magic boomer and Beast Within is like 13 years old now. 🤷

[@drewhoffmaster2969]

Definitely a more in depth argument to be had on if Withering Torment is appropriately costed, but I think there are far more arguments in favor of black having enchantment removal than against. The main arguments for black to not have enchantment removal are "it's historical/tradition and has worked for 25 years", "it provides a clear weakness to the color", and "it's not sensible from a lore perspective to kill that which isn't living." (Note: these are main arguments I identified, not an exhaustive list. I'm open to discussions on other reasons.) Going backwards, lore should always come after mechanical balance and the lore can be shifted/adjusted/worked around. The clear weakness still exists--artifacts are a big problem for black still. The final argument requires a bit more digging, but the long and short of it is "enchantments are getting stronger and need more answers available to a wider variety of decks." In particular, power creep over the years makes it so enchantments just do a whole lot more than they used to and can even be used to generate repeatable card advantage/board state at low to no cost, meaning that black's typical gameplay of targeted creature removal/conditional board wipes is not effective. Artifacts have 3 colors that deal with them--White, Green, and Red. Enchantments previously had only 2, Green and White. That works fine if you just splash a color to deal with something, but that requires reworking decks significantly to do so and makes gameplay super super swingy in an unpleasant way. Essentially you lose at deck selection instead of in-game, which is not healthy. If we consider blue as being semi-able to deal with both, that means that 4 colors of 5 can deal with artifacts and only 3 of 5 can deal with enchantments, meaning that you just cannot afford to play Rakdos at all. What makes this divide worse is that the colors best designed for dealing with enchantments *are also the best colors for playing enchantments.* White and Green are the main colors for enchantress effects, have the most "friendly to enchantment" synergy, and have absurd cards like smothering tithe, trouble in pairs, sylvan library, etc. that snowball games in their favor. Blue has some as well, whereas red and black's have largely been power-crept in comparison. It's a pretty decent flaw that the colors most likely to play enchantments are also the ones with the best removal for said enchantments. Oh, one last argument I found in favor of not giving black enchantment removal--the main draw of black's enchantments over the years has been "you get a benefit but in a faustian bargain." You get some upside but start eating up your life/other resources to do so and will eventually lose the game to your own enchantment. We don't want black to easily get out of that. I agree with this argument, but I think that's a reason to limit black enchantment destruction to only enchantments an opponent controls, not to keep it out entirely.

[@RainbowRandolf]

"Cammy of Whispered Hopes" makes me twitch every time.

[@evilhorst7254]

I said it already, but just from a simple gameplay standpoint i think its extremely important for black having targeted enchantment removal. Think about it: Enchantments have become incredibly strong. Bloomburrow introduced talents which are dominating the meta right now (mostly hunters talent and caretakers talent) and now they made a whole set again that is about enchantments. There simply is nothing you can do in a dimir or monoblack deck right now to not lose to these cards. There is another color that cannot deal with enchantments: red. Why does it not matter for red? Because mono red is aggro, rakdos is aggro and izzet can combo off to win or also just play aggro. For this reason wizards should never print an enchantment that can deal with aggro. This means the only way for monoblack and dimir to win against enchantment heavy deck is to also play aggro or a really up tempo midrange deck. Its not a coincedence that these are the only types of decks to find success right now. I understand if people do not like the flavor of it or do not like it from a lore standpoint. Black NEEDS playable enchantment removal or whole types of decks will be locked out of the meta until bloomburrow rotates.

[@jkdeadite]

Enchantments are so much better overall now than they were 25 years ago. All sorts of aspects of the color pie have changed at different times as the game pieces have changed, and every color has cheap, potentially game-winning enchantments now.

[@Buchaus]

The Enduring creatures being Rare in their normal versions and Mythic in their showcase versions is incredibly annoying. It was stupid when they did it with Hurkyl and Urtet, but with this set having 5 cards that are like this, there's going to be more chances for you to get a dud mythic in collector packs.

[@ZackSavage]

I actually like black getting enchantment removal. White has always had an enchantment subtheme. White also has always had graveyard removal. I think black should be able to hate on enchantments.

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

White is THE removal color. Back when the color pie was a thing white had the strongest removal but the least access to card advantage. Black gets better card advantage but much more limited removal types

[@Mirvana]

Black should absolutely be able to destroy enchantments because black is effectively "You can do anything, but it hurts you"

[@Optimator7]

THIS

[@Graatand]

Oh, God, it’s the “Green should be able to do anything as long as the word ‘creature’ appears in the text box” mentality all over again.

[@Mirvana]

@@Graatand Chad meme face: "Yes."

[@hanneloretanasse75]

I knew when Withering Torment was announced that Seth was going to have his strong opinion about black enchantment removal announced immediately lol

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

Status quo is not a good reason to not allow black to deal with enchantments IMO.

[@joshuakruger4851]

Funny that Seth didn't mention that scavenger is basically a color shifted generous visitor that just rotated out and went back to theros

[@TheSpunYarn]

Comparing Withering Torment is wrong because it doesn't have the same card text. I know that Seth put them next to each other because in Commander he plays those two spells as 3 mana catch-alls, but they aren't what you would compare Withering Torment to. Disenchant, Naturalize, the White/Green spells that destroy artifacts and Enchantments. Withering Torment is at least 3 times worse than these in mana cost and downside.

[@baconsir1159]

"I'm only fine with black enchantment removal when it's straight-up unplayably bad" is certainly a take

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

The correct take.

[@baconsir1159]

@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle Bro he's fine with Beast Within, he ain't correct he's just a hypocrite

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

@@baconsir1159 did we watch the same video?

[@somedudeontheinterwebs45]

@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle beast within is a fundamental color pie break, and yet he is okay with it existing. He is not okay with a card that fits a deliberate change in black's color pie identity as lined out by wizards. It is hypocrisy, if not just straight-up stupidity.

[@taylorostempowski9453]

You mean is certainly correct right? Or are you a terrible boring player as well?

[@davidtuffelli-rail2214]

The reason Withering Torment doesnt seem worse is you forget everything else has become so much stronger

[@Boethion]

Its still 3 mana removal that also costs you life, its stonecold unplayable in Standard and if you really need enchantment removal just play Golgari or Orzhov.

[@dac2007]

​@@Boethionnot really, it's a good card that enables mono black to be better against things like Domain

[@casuallydone468]

@@dac2007 Why do that when you can splash a Tear Asunder? The cost for playing this is lower than the cost for splashing a miniscule amount of green in a monoblack deck.

[@chrisf9156]

@@casuallydone468 Tear Asunder is a higher CMC for the added creature removal and doesn't slot into Mono-Black or Dimir deck sideboards like this card will.

[@maikocat]

Another thing about Valgavoth's Onslaught that Seth nearly touched on, is that it's not making tokens. Sure they could be flipped up or blinked and such, but also, they're specifically "nontoken creatures", for things that care about that wording in particular. The Great Henge, for instance, would be drawing you a card for every 2 extra mana you put into Onslaught, as would Guardian Project (since face-down cards don't have names... I think).

[@Outlawbyname]

Enduring Courage is also really interesting with Bello, Bard of Brambles. As long long as its your turn, Enduring Courage will always be a creature due to Bello, so you'd be able to go completely infinite with any sac effect. Infinite mana with Phyrexian Altar Infinite damage with Goblin Bombardment Infinite card draw with Greater Good

[@collinbeal]

Black Enchantment removal is only tertiary in the color pie; the only reason we're seeing an efficient black Enchantment removal spell is the Enchantment-heavy Limited environment. I agree that they made the change because black removal wasn't nearly versatile enough in Commander, but that doesn't mean this card was designed for Commander. If you want to know why a Common or Uncommon does what it does, look at the Limited environment it is in, because that's why the card primarily exists. I think not reviewing all the Commons and Uncommons in each set has skewed your perspective on the game.

[@xchronox0]

Yeah he always just refers to them as "draft chaff" without actually talking about how anything affects limited, which makes me think that no one on the team even bothers with limited. If none of them like playing it, that's fair I guess. But if any of them do, it would be nice to let someone in the group talk about it.

[@TheREALTheRealAdam]

Saying that it had been fine for black to not be able to remove enchantments for 25 years is only true when you consider how bad the average enchantment was for most of those 25 years. Modern enchantments are basically just artifacts 2/5 of the color pie just can't deal with. Finally, it does add some needed dimension to black. Consider White: can answer most cards as 1 for 1s, or can wrath everything. Blue can answer anything temporarily (bouncing), or permanently assuming it has a counter ready. Black (without enchantment hate) can kill creatures and planeswalkers, which I'm pretty sure is still the least played card type. That's it. I guess I forgot battles, but AFAIK Atraxa's Fall is the only dedicated battle removal in the game. Also battles suck.

[@cruthius6154]

After rotation for Standard, there is no enchantment removal in red or black. Withering Torment helps that in the rakdos deck for sideboarding against the Talent decks. Now that Standard is picking back up again, this card is needed.

[@nharviala]

I think Marvin's biggest drawback is that the cards need to be on the field, meaning you either need to cast them, or cheat them into play for the things like Phyrexian Devourer or Mirror-Mad Phantasm. I don't think it replaces the sheer value of Necrotic Ooze in non-standard or pioneer formats.

[@thetom341]

Yeah, no question Necrotic Ooze seems more powerful as a combo piece.

[@aaronwindham6065]

Black has needed enchantment removal for years, feed the swarm was not enough, if you can shut down my graveyards through no counter play at all, just an enchantment, I should be able to remove it if I draw it. I still can't deal with artifacts in mono black, mana ramp is difficult in it, there are clear and present weaknesses to black, it doesn't need to have all of them

[@wemf2]

Actually, Artifacts can be removed by all colors except Black, so it's true that Enchantments being only be removable by 3 colors still make it not as balanced.

[@RasmusVJS]

Blue can't *destroy* artifacts. Blue is (basically) equally good at bouncing and countering artifacts and enchantments, but that isn't what we're talking about when we say a color can *remove* a card type.

[@zotha]

24:45 "I don't know why WOTC chose to make changes to a game that is changing every set!". You sound silly whining about this, it is done. They fixed a problem with the colour pie, it doesn't matter how long the problem existed. If WOTC never chose to make changes to the game we would have quit the game 2 decades ago.

[@ullrich]

Hey Seth! Another great video as always - I wouldn't go anywhere else for spoilers! Just one suggestion if I may: Is there a way you could move the cards up a little bit, or move the placement of your video down a little bit, or a bit of both? Your hair often blocks some of the text (mostly power and toughness) of the rightmost card. As a fellow sporter of a manbun, I am a bit jealous of yours - it is glorious. Just sometimes a bit obscuring. 😆❤

[@SteelBoundDuelist]

I mean, if the humans in the house of horrors been living in there for literally their whole lives, they might be desensitized to the “horror”, so they’ve adapted and adopted the living arrangements and made their own equipment in the environment provided

[@xchronox0]

must be a very safe place because they all look like they're fresh in there. no wear, no marks, all perfectly clean and kempt

[@LeonAkiedo]

While black having enchantment removal is stretching the color pie, it's become something of a necessity. If wizards wants to continue to push power creep on everything including enchantments, then the answers need to keep pace or exist at all in more decks. We've seen this before with green's fight/bite effects with the rise of creature based combos. As for the comparison to Generous Gift or Beast Within, those cards are much more flexible to a degree that I don't think they are even comparable, I'd say Withering torment is somewhere between Hero's Downfall and Ravenform.

[@andrewruoff4687]

Maro said that black is tertiary in enchantment destruction btw

[@STS-qi1qy]

Withering Torment is a huge deal for Standard monoblack decks like Discard. Removing Temporary Lockdowns and such is massive and well worth a slot.

[@RandomGuy-qr5jw]

I love this channel. A smiling ewok is explaining magic stuff to me. What more could one ask for

[@mattm7798]

Seth you are 100% spot on about the human art in this set. Looks horrible.

[@qwerty62201]

Hard disagree

[@OdinMagnus]

18:30 Your rant is accepted, however, I think they look like that because that's how they acted in horror movies when the "monster" wasn't around. Randomly walking around, having sex, drinking, random other activities. Not trying to bunker down and be safe. lol A real rant would be, why do we go from cute animals to horror? I miss blocks, we could have had 3 sets in Bloomburrow and actually have a story or something. Then go to the horror set and they can make the monsters come out in the second set and the first set can be all the people and "bump in the night" cards. And maybe even a girl name "Final" which would be a joke about the final girl that survives. But having a set come out every 3 weeks makes it so that we don't even remember sets. I don't even remember what cards I need from Ixilan or MKM and already we are 4 sets later.

[@SuperSilverSerpent]

I don’t mind more colors getting enchantment removal. If you ask me, all colors should be able to do it, especially when they just printed new leylines. Leylines are super sacky cards with very limited counter play that completely shut down certain decks. They’re not even “hero” cards because void is usually the graveyard hate of choice BY GRAVEYARD DECKS because for some reason it’s not symmetrical and sanctity is only run by unfair combo decks who don’t want to get thoughtseized. I honestly want more cards like withering torment. We need cards that hate on enchantments but also do something else

[@justinwinters7170]

I personally am glad black is receiving enchantment removal that isn't utterly embarrassing to run. It's still significantly worse than all white and green enchant interaction, and it further balances out the color pie

[@Shimatzu95]

Any single target removal thats not reuseable (usually at least) without upside SHOULD be at 3 cmc or lower. Snowballing treats are getting cheaper by the year and considering white and green have 1 mana: remove artifact or enchantment (orcreature in white) I realy dont think withering torment is undercosted at 3, if anything feed the swarm might have been. All that aside, most people will still play it at sorcery speed since most decks tap out on their turn (or at least cant just leave open 3 mana).

[@mjkuhnke]

I believe the flash on essence tracker (and being a blue enchantress in general) is just because it's part of the aminatou deck. Help enable "it's a miracle! Virtue of knowledge for U" and I respond with essence tracker so I draw a card too I think part of your problem with the survivor cards is your not looking at the variants with the monsters chasing them or in the reflections. The infiltration team is clearly a Ghostbusters take though.

[@nathanieltyre680]

Bring back your Orzhov Budget Roles deck! Its getting so much support with this set!

[@krunchyapples]

I have a Kenrith legendary tribal deck focused around activated abilities. That Marvin card would sure be a perfect fit

[@demiurge2501]

color pie aside, withering torment costing 3 is a massive, massive deal in terms of tempo. you trade down on something like inkeeper's talent for example, and even if you do it in response to a level up you still dont get ahead on mana

[@travis_approved]

Enchantments being removed in black feels totally fine to me tbt

[@bongzong9824]

Withering torment is awesome, so please dont get on our nuts plx.

[@gabejessgaming6108]

Essence tracker with Asinine Antics goes HARD

[@Superangeldemongirl]

Came here just for Seth's rant about withering torment.

[@CDShap]

There is an Old Stickfingers EDH deck a friend of mine plays that might be a home for Valgagoth's Onslaught. Enduring Courage is going to replace one of my other haste sources in my Krenko, Mob Boss deck.

[@RConnickJr]

Black has been able to get enchantment removal for years, with the caveat that it's should be worse than what you'd get from Green or White. Green, White and Red remove Artifacts, and Black was added to Green and White for Enchantments to mirror that. Frankly, that is a deeply silly thing to be mad about.

[@Gorbgorbenson]

The problem with giving black enchantment removal is that it removes an insteresting aspect of the color. I like Feed the Swarm because of it's drawback, but this new one is MILES better. Even if they print 1 good new enchantment removal for black a year, they'll be staples forever, meaning that commander gets a bit more boring. Yay. 😐

[@daltonfongemie6414]

I already use ogre battledriver in Krenko cedh. Will be switching to enduring courage

[@Vael221]

Honestly I kind of love the campy 80s B-movie style. It's the kind of silly goofy horror nonsense that my friends and I would love for a Cthulhu or Shadowdark reskin game. And no it's not nostalgia; just seems like a fun vibe.

[@mindhackz]

Your uneven criticism of the lack of color pie faithfulness is notable. Every color has constantly broken the color pie rule you claim still exists at this point. Black has been the most faithful to only doing black things.

[@domotoroOfficial]

i like other colors getting better removal options personally. I think one of the least interesting things about mtg is white’s monopoly on removal. this issue is, in my opinion, compounded by the fact that should a new card type come out (planeswalkers) blue-white just goes from being already the best control colors to being the best control colors by a country mile.

[@jaytier7049]

I agree with the designs of the humans/survivors. They don't appeal to me. I get the whole 80s teenagers campy look. However, I think they should have gone with the slasher route instead of the ghostbuster route for their designs. It would have matched the energy of the gnarly designs that the monsters had. Like if Massacre Girl was designed to resemble the classic final girl would have been cool to see.

[@VincentWolfeye]

I like withering torment. But it could arguably have one more lifeloss and only being able to target your oponents enchantments. Destroying your own demonic contracts feels a bit off.

[@MattDavies-f4u]

Marvin with Tree of Perdition is what I'm looking forward to using 👌

[@kas579]

Marvin+loreth of the healing house+any legendary creature with a free tap ability. Infinite aluando, the seer, or stella lee

[@stephenhousman6975]

I think you are a person who would hate Ghostbusters. That is what I am getting

[@TheMaskedNinja_]

If i recall correctly flipped up cards will keep the counters too

[@thetom341]

They will.

[@collinbeal]

They never leave the battlefield, so any modification to them is kept.

[@pketr5]

Rules question: if i have my street wraith in the battlefield, can i cycle the Marvin in my hand by using Street Wraith's ability? Note: Trazyn and Necrotic Ooze specify that they have to be on the battlefield before they gain abilities. Marvin does not. Also relevant for cycing, channel, ninjitsu, unearth, eternalize, reassembling skeletons, cauldron familiars and definitely more

[@WeasyMTG]

Id assume this would work with scrap trawler too if it's in play and marvin is in the graveyard

[@poiri]

Unless a card gives very good reason for you to believe/states it can be active/activated in a zone other than the battlefield (for example Reassembling Skeleton doesn’t say “activate only if ~ is in your graveyard” but due to the text you know it can only work from the graveyard) it won’t be active in other zones. The specificity on Necrotic Ooze and Trazyn is because there’s a real chance someone would think it has abilities of stuff in the graveyard while in the graveyard as it is referring to that zone, something Marvin doesn’t do, and therefore doesn’t need that bit of text. So no his ability gaining ability is only active while on the battlefield. I am not a judge, I could very well be wrong, but I’m like 99% sure about this.

[@joelhatterini6392]

No, definitely not how that works. A continuous effect like Marvin's is only active while on the battlefield.

[@pketr5]

​@joelhatterini6392 is there a ruling that says that continuous effects are active only on the battlefield? What if Marvin is in a zone that is visible to everyone like in the graveyard, would I be able to Unearth Marvin?

[@joelhatterini6392]

@@pketr5 If that were the case, Blood Moon could be active from exile.

[@MunchKING]

I thought Black couldn't kill Enchantments so it couldn't get rid of detrimental Enchantments it controlled, like Demonic Pact, or any of the Lich effects when they are about to kill you. So if it gets Enchantment removal it should only work on opponents.

[@AMassiveHeadache]

with how often i see the Caretaker or Inn Keeper talent decks on Arena, i am totally cool with Withering Torment.

[@whirlyboi8524]

I think black ench removal should always be sorcery speed and sacrifice based, i liked extract the truth, Made sense to me...

[@Yukamii]

Most colors are able to cover every basis. Black is the only color that cant deal with enchantments even colorless can deal with enchantments. Blue can bounce green burys red can warp them white exiles them black literally needs that type of support. Every color should have tools to be viable at this point. Having 1 color not be able to do something when all the others are able to makes little sence. If its color spacific it should be a possitive attribute" flicker, discard, unearth" all are color pie spacific that fall in this arc of positive spacific traits

[@WillOG98]

If black shouldn’t have enchantment removal then green shouldn’t have card draw!

[@evangrescol7772]

See, idk if the piebreak is actually that bad. And maybe that's because it isn't a piebreak to me, but I don't think allowing black to remove Enchantments is the annoying boogeyman everyone is treating it as. They still can't touch Artifacts and at the cost of 3 mana and 2 life? Like I understand that 2 life isn't much, but with many of Black's mechanics that try to give you an advantage that's either sac a creature or lose life, it adds up. Playing with mothman and rad counters has made me realize that just because it's only 1 or 2 life out of 40, doesn't mean it doesn't matter. Some others are also pointing out that without it, graveyard strategies in black could become borderline unplayable with the amount of enchantment based graveyard hate that exists. Idk, it just seems pedantic when, as you said, we have green drawing cards or white actually having decent ramp. They're literally mirrors of the same thing going on, with much of green's card draw being conditional and White's ramp being primarily catch-up ramp.

[@blueberryiswar]

Horseshoe crab untabs a card named horseshoe crab for 1 mana. So if it copies that ability, it would just untab your horseshoe crab not the mimic.

[@TheLunaLockhart]

I'm not... against having enchantment removal in black. In standard, at least, there are a lot of enchantments that either need to be answered or run away with the game. Giving the removal color a removal spell that deals with that stuff seems entirely reasonable

[@Shimatzu95]

I realy hope we get more non-green enchantress cards. Even white only has 1 (outside of mesa they only draw for auras).

[@befuddledfrog]

Instantly knew withering torment would be the most popular commander card from the set as soon as I saw it. Even if it was at sorcery speed it would see play

[@TheJadeFist]

Maqrvin, Murderous Mimic "of creatures you control that don't have the same name as this creature" Is legendary... also generally speaking there isn't a point in having the same activated ability twice, maybe if it's one of those "chose one that hasn't been chosen yet" but I can only think of a few triggered abilities like that... so what's the point of that text limiting it?

[@bigtimetimmyjim6486]

Giving monoblack enchantment removal feels wrong to me

[@jorritdriessen5728]

I agree

[@FairMagic]

Feed the swarm

[@magicbanding1095]

The color pie is broken

[@aaronwindham6065]

We still can't deal with artifacts, it's better than feed the swarm in most situations, maybe not in CEDH, where you wouldn't use enchantment removal anyway, but it's about time we don't have manoramp we have clear and present weaknesses in black, we need enchantment removal. It shuts down all graveyard decks

[@benv5052]

There have been a lot of mono black cards that interact with enchantments printed recently, feed the swarm, debt to the Kami, and Invoke Despair I don’t see how this is different besides it being more playable than the others

[@MunchKING]

I was thinking Valagoth's Onslaught in my Titania Voice of Gaea to try and throw a bunch of lands in the graveyard. Although Unbound Flourishing would make this card bonkers. :D

[@EBurstyn]

💯 friggin percent on the art rant!!! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@BauldyBoys]

Onslaught is great with outcast trailblazer. turn 3 plot turn 4 trailblazer + onslaught for 5 is nice. I used to run it with invoke but ya the mana was always kind of rough.