Dutch M78 Web Equipment, The Last of 1937 Pattern

A comparison of British and Dutch webbing, a last gasp for 1937 Pattern.
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[@geodkyt]

Excellent point about the "reenactorism" of insisting on matching all one's webbing. As an example, when I was an infantryman in the US Army in the late 1980s and early to mid 1990s, my webbing was a mix and match of *every* pattern of kit that was compatible with the LCE system, with pieces from the 1950s to the late 1980s. For example, I preferentially used the late 1950s/early 1960s suspenders ("braces" in Britspeak) because they allowed me to attach a second (late 1950s pattern) buttpack up on the shoulder blades for patrols without a rucksack). Even "matching" bits didn't necessarily match - we used the "field dressing pouch" for both field dressings for everyone and as a compass carrier for leaders; one of mine was an early 1950s cotton web pouch I carried my compass in (i figured the heavier cotton would protect it better) and the field dressing was in was a brand new (literally issued to me in the factory wrapper) nylon version. Neither the troops nor the quartermaster care- if it's in the supply system and it works, it's going to get used. And if the older stuff is perceived as working better (or even just "looks cooler" 😄) for some reason, guys are going to scrounge those older bits up, even if they have to dig through the back of the storeroom.

[@Emdee5632]

Fond memories indeed! I served in the Dutch Royal Army in 1986-1987. I hardly ever wore green. I was designated a ''hofmeester'' (steward) and wore black and white. I served food to corporals in the corporal's mess.... Most people in the Army in those days who where hofmeester were thrown out of other conscript trainings, but me and my colleques during ''training'' were meant to be stewards from the beginning. I had no function for the battlefield and this showed in the equipment that I got. I never received the full kit conscripts in the infantry got but I have an idea when I look through the army manual again. Mine was a mix of old and new, just as mentioned in this video. I recognise the rubberized '''pukkel'' and the cotton haversack. Almost all the webbing was green, the metal parts were black. I had ONE L-strap that I had to blanco (why not both of them?). Almost all of my mates had the three-part collapsible shovel but I had this older two-part model where you could only fold the blade and I still had to carry this awkward long wooden handle on my back. I never received the ammunition pouches. During my initial five weeks of training I was issued a FAL rifle. I believe I shot it twice in those weeks. I expected I had to return all my stuff in 2000 when I was 35 years old. However the cold war had ended. I never had to show up in the 1990s for any army rehearsal trainings. I still have almost everything. I lost the gloves and some of the handkerchiefs, small stuff like that. The last time I fit in my uniform was a long time ago. I still regulary use the five supporting straps. I received two coveralls and I believe in 1987 a raincoat and raintrousers, those were excellent, too bad I had to hand them in when I left (and some other expensive stuff like the gas mask set. Oh and the black-and-white steward clothes of course :-) ).

[@helanren]

Nice video, brings back memories.... Talking about backwards compatibility: I did my military service in 89/90 and had some stuff that my father had kept from his time somewhere in the mid fifties. I remember his two part shovel (which was only good as a 'look at this' to show my mates) but especially the belt which I made good use of.... During basic training, we had to wear the belt both on our coats, and on the overall which we wore during PT in cold weather. During basic training, you were given only a very short time to change from one uniform to another, so being able to keep one belt permanently on the coat and another on the overall (and therefore not having to go through threading it neatly through all the loops both before and after PT) really came in handy! In addition, the old belt had a bronze instead of a black buckle, which nicely distinguished you as a 'veteran' (sort of....) compared to your mates wearing just the common equipment that all of us had been issued with :-).

[@robendert7617]

Born and raised in the Netherlands, this video triggered fond memories (more or less ... ) in this middle-aged dutch-guy. With a complicated family, lots of things to compare, my first son having served in the French air force commandos, and the second one in the Swiss armored infantry. Greetings from Switzerland.

[@aristoteles5215]

Some comments from a 1985 Dutch army conscript (12 Briggnkcie): In stead of the large pack, we had the smaller pack, that contained the mess tins, cutlery, some underwear, some pairs of socks, the wet weather poncho or cape that doubled as a groundsheet, and probably some more stuff, but I can't remember it all. The "scrim scarf" was never used as a scarf (at least not in our outfit) but put into the inner helmet (great for preventing a draft in winter), if I remember correct, the scrim scarf purpose was camouflage, draped over your helmet /face/shoulders, breaking your contours, but I might be wrong..... around the neck indeed the triangular scarf with velcro. I do recall that the webbing with the copper fittings needed waterproofing (?) with "Blenco", green (of course!) waxy stuff, applied with a small brush. (We used to warm the tin to make it easier to apply.) The webbing with the black fittings didn't need that treatment, luckily, as it was a messy job. On the belt, you had the canteen, trenching tool, and some drivers and NCO's also had a pistol holster hooked on it. During '85/86 I remember being issued special raincoat and trousers. The coat was large enough so that it could be worn over the kit, you had on your back. Besides a zipper, it also had a velcro fastener. If you ever have had to undo a coat with a velcro fastener, you know it makes a lot of noise, not a good idea if you find yourself at a front line, trying to lay low. Luckily I never had to worry about that.

[@garwic2288]

I was issued this gear in 1983 and used it until being replaced by the newer DPM gear in the early 1990. What you call the haversack was know to us as de pukkel. I, and the rest of my unit, had the cotton webbing version. The rubberized version was a rare object then. The entrenching tool i used was still with a wooden handle and in a cotton webbing cover. The larger pack was still brandnew when replaced by the DPM gear, eg never used in the field. At first we had light brown hessian colored with blanco, brown and black shoepolish. As a tanker (LEO2) we had black tank boots (never used) thats why the black shoepolish In 1984 in my unit the hessian was replaced by a woodland patern helmet cover (still have the original and complete helmet). The net "scarf" (gelaatsnet) was used as a light towel to clean the messtins , so its place was in de pukkel not around the neck. Still use these as light towels when i go out camping. Magazine pouches were only issued in case of war together with extra magazines for your personal weapon. In my case 5 mags for the UZI. Mags also fit in the breast pouches of the filed jacket. Right pouch for 1 or 2 mags , left pouch for LuPa (Lunch Packet)

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks very much for all this information, fascinating stuff!

[@jaws848]

​@@RiflemanMoorei remember when i was in the Irish F.C.A. back in the day...things were so bad that you had to buy your own field / combat jacket and trousers (we were issued with the Irish army working dress uniform but we were not issued with the field /combat uniform,hence having to buy your own) and it could be from any country as long as it was olive drab and as a result these Dutch combat jackets were a popular choice....being readily available in army surpluss stores here in Ireland at the time.

[@jackdroog3243]

In 1983 everything from webbing the pouch and backpack was the same as the 1937 British equipment. We had to blanco everything the first week in order to make our webbing more water resistent, but the sergent told us we where lucky because the new buckles where blackened already so we did not have to polish them any more. That was changed apperently just before we came up. Little detail, we where not ment to blanco the pack/pukkel on the back side because then it could absorbe the sweat of our backs. That same detail it to been seen onyour exaple of the british pack. Apperently this sweat issue was not there anymore with the late eighties plastic pack. Our shovel was the one with the longer wooden handel, which was much better for chopping roots when ligging then the modern shovels although they pack smaller of course. The hoeks on the L straps came in very handy at long marches for you could hang you UZI on them which kept your hands free and the whole pack hung more balanced with the UZI as counterweight. We feld partly issued with 2nd WW gear. But when the dutch army came up with a new webbing and pack out fit they made something very sweaty and impractical ASAP changed by this soldier by mesh nylon OPS vest. Thanks for the vid brings back memories.

[@Steinstra-vj7wl]

As a former Dutch Infantryman I can honestly say: I HATED the '37 webbing. We STILL had that shit far in the eighties. Dutch Government didn't care at all . We didn't even had a poncho against heavy rain, and a tent that leaked water the moment you touched the fabric. We once had to abort a big exercise because everything was soaking wet.

[@davidbrennan660]

I have used their large packs as a tool bags for several years in the nineties and noughties, they are very serviceable, I still have then for storing other tools I have but use rarely now.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Certainly seem well constructed, if they've served as tool bags for that long it rather speaks to their hardiness.

[@wildweasel8564]

While traveling home I happened to watch an international movie {Land of Mine) and potted the M37 web set immediately. Along with (Battleship Island ) two very haunting movies, from another perspective.

[@krijgsgeweld6324]

the lower pockets of the m58/m78 jacket would be used as storage for extra magazines

[@David-vi4ne]

Great video. Memory lane. Maybe a nice addition to your equipment would be the bed roll consisting of the M80 sleeping bag, rolled into the US pattern tent half. This was attached to the L straps on the small pack and worn on your chest. No sleeping mat was issued at the time. The 1937 cape was still in use and acted as groundsheet. The big pack was never worn on the man, but stayed in the vehicle. Around your neck you wore a triangular green scarf with felcro. In winter you wore a woolen buff. When issued the FAL rifle, you also had a bayonet. The story about the ammo pouches is new to me. I think there was more a practical reason. The army was fully mechanized and on life firing exercise there was plenty of ammo carried in the APC. Early nineties the uniform and equipment was replaced.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks for all the information David! The items you mentioned might be good for the future but I'm not looking to expand the Dutch side of things for the present. I'm primarily interested in the webbing as a very late use of what is, essentially 1937 Pattern.

[@user-js4vh2lw6n]

Great video! I just found a Dutch set like this. I can't wait to put it to use wondering the woods.

[@jimomaha7809]

When I was conscripted into the Dutch army webbing wise I knew what to expect being a ww2 British collector. The uniform displayed with webbing was excactly what I wore (1988). I am 100% sure I never received the scrim scarf also never even saw them being worn. The belt closure of the respirator haversack of mine was thick green plastic. A comparison with a British 1944 pattern belt (37 paternn derived) with American style equiptment would be nice to compare as it is also similar to the Dutch. Never noticed the differences between de British and Dutch large pack! We never were explained how to carry the large pack. It was used by me to transport reserve uniform and whatever I could stuff into it. Just to go to other barracks for some training that was deemed usefull. The supporting straps I used, dark green nylon webbing with a closed blackend aluminium buckle, same as on the haversack. I also have the one side open blackend brass buckle. Indeed we did not got issued with more than 2 magazines one in the side trouser pocket one in the weapon. The story told to me by a sergeant was. When a war started we would be issued with 2 basic pouches with magazines and grenades. Uzi had their own type of pouches. When this uniform was issued with this model of webbing all soldiers received basic pouches (Identical to the British ww2 type) made in green webbing or dark green blancoed. Also I have been showed a bayonet we would be issued. According to this sergeant, bayonet had been withdrawed after to much damage to army property. I still have my army handbook and also an NCO and officers handbook both early versions. I ll try to find them and if they explain how to carry the rubberised haversack.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks very much for all the information, it's greatly appreciated! It must have been rather odd entering the Army and finding kit so similar to that which you'd been collecting.

[@erfgoedgidsveenhuizen]

I had a kolletje instead of a scrim and sleeping bag still from the fifties. Manufacture date of the last one was 1958! Way too short for my 6"4

[@alexfogg381]

The mixing of British and American webbing components, can also be seen in Canadian pattern 51 webbing, I could be wrong on designation. But in the Canadian webbing, you see British style universal ammo pouches, shoulder braces, belt, with metal eyelets, American style canteen, and carrier.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Indeed, there are several videos covering the 1951 Pattern on my channel.

[@66kbm]

Well presented with good comparisons. Well done.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks very much!

[@brabo73]

I used that in 1992/93. But the haversack for the gasmask, we had them in DPM camo, also for the helmet cover and more.

[@blueband8114]

The jackets are awesome, had one for yrs and yrs. Another interesting and educational vid 👍 First came across one( jacket) at school in 1979, a lad in my class used one as his coat bought from an army and navy store.

[@RiflemanMoore]

They're certainly very heavy duty.

[@davidbrennan660]

Great combat jacket, I had a black dyed one in the nineteens as my pub jacket when out. I also loved it in Green as well it was a good shooting jacket, I think I still have a hood and the blanket cloth liner The Police jacket is similar but in blue and in lighter cloth, a good work jacket

[@RiflemanMoore]

Like the sound of the police jacket I have to say, I'll have to keep an eye out for one.

[@dodsonarmsco]

Excellent video, I got some of this back in the 90's/2000's when Century Arms was importing it. Always wanted to find more info on it.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Sorry I don't give the best rundown here, the primary purpose of this is to compare it to original 1937 Pattern bits and pieces.

[@dodsonarmsco]

@@RiflemanMoore it was an excellent video when we received the surplus lots it was a mix of Dutch with about 30% UK web gear. It included a Dutch Large ammo pouch with a bottom flap so you could pull individual 303 or M1 Garand clips out the bottom these pouches hooked directly to the shoulder straps.

[@sander7165]

@@dodsonarmsco those ammo pouches are Danish not dutch. Dutch m52 pouches are the same as the p37 but made from green canvas , have a drainage hole and have a horizontal flap (instead of a pointed one)

[@dodsonarmsco]

@@sander7165 OK

[@sander7165]

@@dodsonarmsco imgur.com/a/1Qip8W5 Here are some pictures of the pouches from my collection. I believe the danish ones also have a lift the dot style closure .

[@mrtame9514]

Could you do a video about Italian cold war webbing? I am struggling to find other information about it.

[@lib556]

That respirator satchel looks exactly like a Canadian respirator carrier. As I commented on your video of Canadian uniform and we equipment in Germany in the late 70s, that is the preferred method for carrying that carrier and not affixed directly to the web belt. Another minor point is that the mouth of the carrier is to be folded once before the velcro enclosure is engaged. This ensured no dirt etc got in.

[@RiflemanMoore]

It is essentially exactly the same, the Dutch issued a slightly modified C3 at this time. I'm interested to hear about this being the preferred method of carrying the haversack, all the late '70s photos I consulted when putting together the Canadian mannequin showed the haversack carried on the 1964 Pattern belt, rather than on it's own carrying straps. Thanks for the tip on the closure, makes perfect sense!

[@lib556]

@@RiflemanMoore I pointed this out on our email discussion about the Canadian mannequin. For the benefit of the public I'll mention it here. Typically REMFs carried it on their belts. Certainly the infantry carried it separate. That way we could dig a trench or perform other tasks with the respirator on the hip while webbing was piled to the side.

[@erfgoedgidsveenhuizen]

I wore that in 92. Had a a later camo helmet cover though

[@mil1330]

Great video as always. Interesting that the Dutch Marines had a set that allowed for multiple mag pouches. It's almost as if they only intended certain units to really be involved. If I were a Brit or American stationed alongside a Dutch unit with 2 mags, I wouldn't feel very good about it! :)

[@RiflemanMoore]

Yeah, they had a set similar to British 1958 Pattern, they fulfilled a very different role in many ways to be fair.

[@michelwijnand]

The Dutch army actually had basic pouches until sometime around sometime in the 70's, when they just stopped issuing them. But during UNIFIL some started to pop up again, normal basic pouches, also some modified to be hanging lower on the belt, some British Sterling magazine pouches and also several soldiermade types. The Marines webbing would have either 2 double magazine pouches for the FAL, or 2 triple UZI pouches for 25rd mags, or 2 triple pouches for the FAL-O.

[@sander7165]

@@michelwijnand I am quite sure the did not issue the m52 basic pouches after 1969. I read this on the wo2forum. Are you on the Iacmc forum?

[@michelwijnand]

@@sander7165 Yes that might be the yeqar, I couldn't remember the correct year anymore. I do have 1 or 2 photos of them still being worn in the early 70's, but those are anomalies, pretty much nobody had them anymore. And yes I am on there!

[@sander7165]

@@michelwijnand Do you know why they are so scarce? I know of 1 surplus store that has them in large quantities.

[@sander7165]

The fieldjacket is actually a m58 and was also worn after the m58 field shirt was replaced by the m76 and m78 . The designations m78 (for the equipment) and such are not official but judging from pictures with dates,I would say it is correct. Soldiers in the 80s called it the 'playmobil equipment' Most dutch belts seem to have notches/ cutouts in the back buckle. I have a nylon belt which doesn't have notches (which looks exactly the same as yours) but my belt from 1955 does have the cutout in the buckles.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks for all the information! I've noticed the earlier webbing belts do have the open face on one of the buckles, yes. All the examples I've seen to date made of nylon material seem to have closed buckles, not sure why.

[@sander7165]

@@RiflemanMoore I researched the large pack /ransel (in dutch) a bit but it seems that it was rarely used in 80s . It was used for moving from base to base but they also used a duffel bag . I dont think it was worn on your back but rather under your arm or over your shoulder ( i have read this somewhere but I couldn't find it on the web).

[@RiflemanMoore]

Interesting, odd that it has the fittings for the L straps then.

[@dienstagmitte3930]

@@sander7165 It was something to put your Isolation clothing in. And on Bivak

[@dienstagmitte3930]

@@RiflemanMoore it was used to go to your camp etc.

[@DartboardDissections]

Tbh from this video I'm quite interested and branching out and trying to collect and make this kit myself. Been doing some looking on ebay and Google but for the webbing primarily I can't find anything for the cross straps, L straps or the hooks that would go into the belt where the ammunition pouches would be, I've searched up m52, m53 and m78 webbing and there aren't any results. Idk whether to use my 37 pattern webbing I already have to fill in it's place or if I'm using the wrong terms when searching it in. Any help would be appreciated

[@Emdee5632]

I had no trouble at all acquiring the kit myself in 1986... Much of it I had to return in 1987. I still have parts of it. Did you search on Dutch sites as well?

[@user-bh4rx8mf8g]

I've got a webbing belt that my father gave me as a child, which served me very well playing soldiers in the garden and then many years later in Afghanistan and other foreign resorts. I've been trying for years to work out what it is and, watching this video, I thought I'd finally cracked it. Sadly not. It is exactly like the Dutch M78 belt shown at 6:40 but the fittings are brass (albeit blackened brass) and the bottom half of the rings on the back is open- so the bottom halves form a C rather than a D, like the British buckle shown at 13:14. The belt is made in one piece and doesn't have the rifle butt attachment, so it isn't a British Patt 1944. Anyone got any ideas?

[@sander7165]

Those are the earlier dutch m52 belts, only the late late 80s (although I am not certain ) are closed all the way on the bottom. Is it made from nylon or canvas?

[@michelwijnand]

The orientation of the loops on the bottom of the large pack might have something to do with a weird way of carrying both the pack and the haversack below eachother. Though to my knowledge that method has only ever been seen in old trial photos from 1952. This method consists of somehow attaching the haversack below the pack, either by threading the ends of the L-strap's lower straps through the loops at the bottom of the pack and then attaching them to the buckles as the sides of the haversack, though it might require a support strap to lengthen it. Sadly there's just a few antique trial photos of it worn like that, and the picture quality isn't particularly sharp either. Also, support straps were not worn around the pack as in he British way for some reason. Whether someone had a bright idea to start using this way of attachment again and somehow "improving" the direction the straps would go, or that they figured out yet another bad way to attach t to something is a mystery though, just like how they also changed the small buckles on the upper back, there seems to be absolutely no logical way to use those at all

[@RiflemanMoore]

Interesting! I shall experiment attaching the pack and haversack together as you suggest here, I'll see if there's an ergonomic method of doing it.

[@chaz8758]

As a cadet in the early 80's if we used large and small packs we carried them with the small pack lower under the large pack (my det instructors were all ex Malayan vets), if we just had small packs then it was on our back (large packs were not commonly issued to us).

[@michelwijnand]

@@RiflemanMoore If you find me on facebook or IAMC forum then I can send you the few old trial photos, as I can't do that here of course

[@RiflemanMoore]

Could you possibly drop me a message through the Facebook group linked in the description?

[@dutchcoldwarhistory5036]

My grandpa recalled also doing that with his pack and haversack in 1966-67

[@gregsmall5939]

Regarding ammo supply. Was the FAL capable of being topped of with charger clips? In which case, could they have, in combat, issued bandoliers of clips?

[@RiflemanMoore]

I don't believe Dutch FALs had a charger guide top cover. The regs in the late '80s were one mag on the weapon, one mag in the breast pocket of the combat jacket.

[@chaz8758]

We did have very rare plastic chargers to go on the SLR magazine - well when I say "we" I mean I did see a couple of blokes with them in 10 years using the SLR, it could take a 5 round stripper clip, but not a lot of use at times as much or our small arms ammunition "loose" came in cardboard boxes

[@jimomaha7809]

@@RiflemanMoore I actually have a metal one (found it with a mag on a training area). But during my (Dutch) army days we were just shown one but topping up by hand was easier.

[@johnshanahan8477]

Great video again. How was ammo carried

[@RiflemanMoore]

In pockets. One spare magazine.

[@johnshanahan8477]

Sorry should be more clearer what weapon where they using at this time

[@sander7165]

@@johnshanahan8477 FN FAL /MAG and the uzi. The m1 carbine was also used on a small scale in the 80s. The dutch army used the Lee enfield until the late 50s and the Sten until the early 60s. The Garand was also used until the mid 60s (?)

[@66kbm]

​@@sander7165 Agreed. The Dutch Military used various weapon systems in the '80's. These could be broken down into various Arms using specific weapons/equipment...ie, KLu, the Airforce, had magazine pouches for the Uzi, also various differences between the Military and the Marines....Similar to the US Army and the US Marines in WW2. Each evolved its own designs eventually.

[@sander7165]

@@66kbm yes that was certainly the case . The marines had british pattern 58 style equipment . The KL had ammo pouches but were they were not worn post 1969:Dutch M52 webbing imgur.com/gallery/1Qip8W5

[@Emdee5632]

i'm not sure but the only unique Dutch thing I think about the equipment was the shape of the flap of the breast pockets of the coat. Triangular. Did any other country have something similar?