I Respond To Another Vet Claiming Brachycephaly Is No Big Deal

[@imle9279]

The argument they made in the podcast just disgusted me. I remember having a conversation about dogs with my english teacher, she said she would love to own a dog, but that she's too lazy as a person to deal with it. One of my classmates then said "Just get a pug or something" and my teacher said "But those dogs have severe health issues" and I can't say how much I appreaciate her for doing her proper research and not just go with the rest of the population and say "I'm lazy, so I got a lazy dog!"

[@ericachiu2646]

Any practicing veterinarian knows that brachycephalic dogs suffer from serious issues secondary to their deformities. It's nice to see what we've always known supported with real data.

[@AutumnalAussies]

The argument of "they're low energy" falls apart the moment you actually meet a Frenchie or Bulldog, imo. They are such driven, energetic, fun dogs and desperately want to be able to act like a normal dog.

[@DVMCellini]

I know. Such a ridiculous argument.

[@kennikitty]

It's true they have energy, but on a different level than Border Collie or an Australian Shepherd. That's what they meant and that's true. However, they don't have less energy than other companion dogs.

[@sarahjane9644]

I've never met a low energy Frenchie or Bull dog lol they are very high energy and really do like to go out and about like any other dog so that argument didn't really make much sense to me.

[@LoveNanni]

They are almost never low energy.... they can't get enough oxygen is the probably but they want to run and be crazy till they almost pass out.

[@ea2ar]

ive been sitting a frenchie recently and he has so much energy, He just wants to go go go but as soon as I do take him out for a run hes out of breath in 10 minutes. :(

[@ACSThomson]

Every brachycephalic I anesthetize is an automatic ASA 3 because of the severe abnormalities in airway anatomy. I'm practicing in Hong Kong, and severe brachycephaly is very popular in cats as well, with all of the same issues.

[@DVMCellini]

Makes sense. Wait though….some are “ethically bred” and have no abnormalities right?????

[@Finkeldinken]

@@DVMCellini you're hilarious, Dr. 😆

[@maryskidmore53]

I find it surprising that a vet would say it's ok to breed these types of dogs. In my time in vetmed all the doctors I worked with did not agree with brachycephalic breeds. It's awful seeing these breeds suffer the way they do because of this.

[@jodymichelle4965]

I would hope that Dr. Mack’s opinion is not too influenced by her feelings towards brachycephalic dogs like the Boston Terriers and Pugs that she breeds. This is not about feelings, this is about measurable, tangible facts and scientific research. She wrote an article and mentioned that doliocephaly is not a recipe for health just as brachycephaly is not a recipe for illness. She then goes on to say that doliocephalic breeds are plagued by cancer at rates far exceeding what should be considered acceptable. I think she missed the fact that humans have not purposely bred cancer into dogs while we have absolutely purposely bred increasingly brachycephalic features into some breeds. She also talks about the need to understand the limitations of some breeds however I’m pretty sure being unable to breathe without increased effort while vegetating on the couch should not be considered an acceptable limitation for any breed. There is a reason that every veterinary facility my friends and I have ever worked at had a running “joke” that intubated brachycephalic dogs are enjoying being able to breathe normally. I’ve seen instances where older dogs come in that have had breathing issues their entire lives but the owners thought the snorting, snoring, pig noises were cute idiosyncrasies and when they are finally told that’s not the case the dog has significant airway disease which can be life threatening. She closes by saying that she refuses to stand idly by while breeders are losing their rights to preserve breeds that they love. Again, ironically, that version of the breeds she loves only exists because humans cannot admit that nature knows better and instead of preserving have been perverting various breeds over decades to make their physical appearance more appealing to (some) people. It would seem a lot of individuals as well as various groups are personally affronted that brachycephalic breeds specifically are being “targeted” but that is because BOAS is a life limiting/threatening problem. Can you imagine trying to breathe through a straw? There are other breeds that would benefit from breeders finding a middle ground between today’s version and that of a hundred years ago but I think it’s safe to say that between hip dysplasia, allergic skin disease, patella luxations, bladder stones and cataracts, that struggling to breathe earns a place at the top of the list. I would also like to add that I’m sure there are a lot of “breeders” out there that should not be given guardianship of a chia pet, much less a living, sentient creature. The responsible breeders need to get together and push for legislation that requires breeders to take classes on nutrition, behavior, genetics, health problems, etc and get licensed. If someone is caught breeding dogs that is not licensed then fine the shit out of them and put the money from the fines back into animal welfare. Anyone that loves the breed enough to do it correctly should be more than willing to do what is in its best interest.

[@SnugB83]

Totally agree! And many breeders would rather the breed's die off the do anything to fix them such as planned and monitored outcrossing to another breed or breed's. "Purity" means more then health to so many sadly :(

[@AvianKing]

I love this comment. I work in a vet clinic that deals almost exclusively with brachocephalic breeds and breeders. It might be where I live, but just about every breeder of frenchies, exotic and english bullies is in someway problemaic. We have met very polite individuals and others that have threatened us in one way or another. Some have even ended up in the news for kidnapping, abuse or in one case murder. We have had the craziest cases and it never gets dull, but god is it draining. I got into the field to help animals. Love critters more than I like the majority of people, but the stuff I experience because of these breeders makes me want to ring my own neck. We have had puppies pulled far too prematurely, pregnant mothers with significant infections of the respiratory tract, reproductive organs, ears, skin, etc. Breeders ignoring significant health problems like spinal abnormalities, double or sinhle hernias, joint problems, cherry eyes, infection, fleas, etc in favor of the puppies. Have heard more than one “bad take” after a breeders female was not pregnant , or failed to produce female puppies. And that doesnt even include how freaking pissed I get when people come in and ask for us to je$k off their dogs for AI procedures. You have no idea how creepy it is to have a rando dude raise his hand enthusiasticly to do some heinous stuff like this. I really hope the breed either gets changed, the breeding gets banned, or you have to have a background check and liscencing process to become a breeder. Because this stuff (in my area atleast) has just been used by people who cannot get jobs or do not want to get jobs to make a buck. And based on a local craigslist search there are more being produced than homes wanting them, and there is no end in sight.

[@LisaMarieYlva]

Listening to her talk about why brachycephalic dogs made such companions made me so frustrated. Maybe if you want a pet that doesn't need walking, you shouldn't have a dog! Like, lady, have you heard about cats? They can be perfectly happy and healthy, and still enjoy napping on the couch with you all day! They also have cute, short faces naturally if that is so important. But what annoyed me even more was that they only compare them to dogs like GSDs and collies. Yeah, a medium-to-large working dog is not going to be an ideal replacement for someone who was considering a pug. But there are many small companion dogs (both purebred and mutts) that actually have noses! Now they're not all going to be 100% without health issues, but at least those issues aren't generally caused by their very shape.

[@alexpene6910]

As a dog groomer, almost all of flat face breeds come in for check in with always come in something unhealthy internally and or a skin condition in ears, face wrinkles. It’s pretty sad how much someone invests in these flat face breeds just for “cuteness”

[@celiakistner323]

Theres one english bulldog at the clinic I work at that has absolutely terrible allergies and CONSTANT skin infections because the O does not put in any energy into making sure all the wrinkles and rolls are clean. The dogs back feet are curled in a way the paw pads don't even touch the ground. One of his ears is pretty much always swollen to the point we cant even look into the ear and there is always raw oozing skin on his face and paws between the wrinkles. I feel absolutely horrible thinking that this is how this dog has to live its entire life :(

[@YujiUedaFan]

I think they're ugly.

[@Emily-vx6sz]

It’s sad to hear that a veterinarian would choose looks over health. I work at an emergency animal hospital and I’ve sadly seen many brachycephalic breeds struggle so much more than others simply because of their characteristics.

[@ThatSuzanneSchmid]

I was thinking about this issue and about Italian Greyhounds. As a fan of sighthounds, I have always imagined that I'll eventually adopt an Italian Greyhound. It seems they are extremely prone to broken legs though. One article I read suggested 25-45% of Iggies will experience a fracture and that this can happen simply if they land the wrong way when they jump off a sofa. As much as I love these mini greyts, it makes me wonder if they should be bred.

[@alexandrapap3837]

As a vet myself I couldn't agree more with you. Just last week I was at a seminar for BOAS and the lecturer was one of those that conducted the research in Cambridge and she has been working for over two decates treating BOAS. When they showed us the findings for Pugs, French bulldogs and English bulldogs from the whole body barometric pletysmography compared to non brachycephalic dogs the results were just devastating.

[@Jeanne7774]

I appreciate your raising awareness of this. It is a very serious sad issue, we lost our Frenchie the other day, she was only young 😢

[@juliac3933]

Excellent response! I don’t understand how anyone can reasonably claim that a flat face has no relation to breathing problems …That’s basically cramming all the normal tissue and structures into a smaller space. No ones aesthetic preferences should come before pets health.

[@maggiezhang5791]

Hi Dr. Cellini, I'm a pre-vet student currently in undergrad and have been really gaining a lot of insight from your channel. I agree with all the arguments you made in this video and honestly kind of cringed at the part in the podcast where they mentioned how loveable brachycephalic breeds are for resembling human babies. I feel like it is both selfish and irresponsible for people to use that argument to bypass the issues these dogs are predisposed to. After all, they are dogs. They're not meant to be humans. I'm looking forward to other videos you make!

[@DVMCellini]

Thanks Maggie!

[@reganhulvey4213]

I really appreciate you bringing awareness to this topic!! I personally wish the US would ban the breeding of these breeds - there’s so many healthy dog breeds out there that people can “choose from” if they like. Bringing health risks on dogs is a human choice, no excuse for it in my opinion. Would love to see a video with your thoughts on breeders giving dogs away too soon. I work with rescue & own a dog boarding facility & time & time again see behavioral issues with dogs who get taken home at 6-8 weeks. In my opinion it’s just not near enough time with their mom to learn important skills, & no breeder in our area seems to ever let them stay with their momma past 6 weeks, 8 at very best. Would love to hear your thoughts on this topic!

[@hannah.leblanc]

I fully agree! 6 weeks is definitely way to young for puppies to leave their mom. When I was a teenager, my sister got her Beagle pup at 6 weeks old. He had several behavioral struggles as a puppy and still does today at 14.5 years old, despite the training we've done with him. We also raised a litter of Aussies once and since we owned the mother, we ended up keeping most of the puppies until at least 10 weeks old. The two we kept for our family were able to spend even longer with their mom and they didn't experience the behavioral issues our Beagle had. (I understand these two breeds are VERY different temperament wise, but I still think the extra time with momma dog made a big difference.)

[@CharisHii]

The logical gap in the podcast is outstanding. How can you maintain a brachycephalic breed and avoid the syndrome? Thanks for the reaction. I was curious but didn't want to contribute a listen to the podcast.

[@DVMCellini]

They seem to think they can just remove “poor breathers” (their words) from a breeding program.

[@sarahh5273]

I agree with you 100%! My frenchie is having BOAS surgery next week. I have watched her slowly get worse and worse in her short 2 years, she can't go on long walks, she overheats really quick, and of course she snorts alot! I hoping her surgery will give her some relief!

[@Finkeldinken]

About the companion dog thing: There are a number of wonderful non-dog species out there that are great matches for those of us who can't honour the activity level and outdoor time any healthy dog, even a calm one, would ethically need. As a huge dog lover, I can't in good conscience keep the vast majority of dogs, and I miss having doggos, but I would never compromise a pet's health to suit my needs. I am glad you're reacting to this movement and in such a sober manner. People who are new to dogs need this perspective too; the breeders' arguments should not stand alone.

[@iknowyouwanttofly]

I also think geting a really old senior dog can help for some people they still need to go out but some of them without really long walks and they can stop and sniff more for the same amout of outside time.

[@OdysseusCentral]

I’m glad that in veterinary school right now our professors touch on brachycephaly more specifically and how unhealthy it is. I’m almost as passionate on this subject as you but I’m even more passionate about how people are breeding GSDs with hip dysplasia. I’d love to hear a breakdown video from you on that and your opinion.

[@mauras341]

I have a Boston Terrier that I have been told has a "longer muzzle then she should". This is my first Boston so I didn't know the difference 🤷‍♀️ but she doesn't snore, very rarely backward sneezes, or has any real breathing problems. The vets she has seen have appreciated the little bit a muzzle she does have because it's easier for them to do their vet things. The vets have also mentioned that they thought it was a good thing she has a slightly longer muzzle. I still think she looks like a Boston but I hopefully won't have to deal with any breathing issues in her life. I don't think it is necessary to breed these dogs to have short muzzles 🤷‍♀️ they are just as cute with slightly longer muzzles without the potential for breathing issues.

[@DVMCellini]

Eggzactly.

[@juliac3933]

Bostons are such great little dogs. It’s sad they are so plagued by health issues

[@nylirama]

Brachycephalic dogs and cats do have many problems. So do achondroplastic breeds. Funny thing is that in wearing a mask for 2 years, a lot of people complained about obstructive breathing. That is how these animls must feel ALL the time. I agree with your counter argument.

[@DVMCellini]

Yup

[@sherrydawson6253]

I don't understand a VET DOCTOR who's taught anatomy can support purposely breeding this type of dog. So sad

[@cperhala8843]

Thank you for breaking down this podcast respectfully. There is no way brachycephalic dogs are healthy. They can't breathe! As far as the owner who wants a couch potato companion? Consider adopting an adult dog. I adopted a 7ish year old pound hound. Yes, he enjoyed going for walks, but was fine without. I had seven very good years with him. No need to breed a dog that doesn't like exercise simply because they can't breathe!

[@dariankranz9594]

I love this. And I love how you explained the biases. Obviously if someone breeds them, they’re biased. It’s about time people stop breeding for extreme attributes because we are destroying these breeds as a whole that way. French bulldogs can’t even give birth naturally anymore-their species would no longer be here if we didn’t aid them. And it’s so upsetting to see dogs with short snout, just gets worse and worse as they age. Yet these breeders will willingly breed the dogs with the most extreme flat noses so they can get more money, not caring about the animal’s quality of life.

[@BlackJar72]

I know my sister, who has had many ("American") boxers, she is not a fan of what they are doing to the breed with the new "Euro" style boxers -- not only flatter faces, making old problems even worse, but also excessive bulk and chest cavity that causes other problems.

[@angeljohnson234]

I have a Yorkshire terrier mixed breed that has a long muzzle, so I don't have experience with these dogs. However, my aunt has two pugs and had a bulldog in the past. Those poor dogs sound like they are struggling to breathe. It's absolutely heartbreaking.

[@Old_Sailor85]

I love my Boston Terriers, and grew up with a huge Boxer. I can see, however, that it is not a good thing for the individual dogs. One of our Bostons has a significantly longer snout than the other. The one with the longer muzzle is much more athletic and runs with our Weimaraner. The other Boston just started showing breathing issues at 8 years old.

[@DRHCO]

I am a vet and I did exams on a litter of boxers. I noted that they had type 3 malocclusions and were brachycephalic and the owners were outraged as these diagnoses decreased the value of the dogs! They wanted new exam forms that did not include these diagnoses which I refused. Makes me sad to think about what it would feel like to live life always struggling to breathe. They couldn’t have found a more biased vet for this interview.

[@MSflyer2005]

I understand the pugs, boxers, bulldogs, etc. But I am a little confused on the Cavalier Kings Charles Spaniel. In appearance at least it doesn't seem to have as short of (or non-existent) muzzle of the other brachycephalic, it seems more in line with just the muzzle of a small breed. Is this a problem that could happen with any small breed of dog?

[@GuruishMike]

I think these dogs even look better when they have muzzles. My sister has a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, and the poor thing should have a CPAP machine.

[@Comehereboy]

Thanks for sharing some research on this! That's enlightening. I've commented before that I breed Rhodesian Ridgebacks and this gives food for thought. I think I agree that if it's going to be a lifetime, lifelong issue to the health of the dog, breeding a physical feature doesn't make sense. I do think a lot of us who are trying to breed healthy, wellbred, purebreds get worried that people are attacking us and trying to get us to stop breeding, when most of us are trying really hard and spending lots of money to breed good dogs that we really are passionate about preserving, so people have the option to buy predictable, relatively healthy dogs. I know this doesn't excuse breeding dogs that are extremely likely to have health problems linked to their conformation, but I think people get scared and so don't want to look at the truth and how to fix it. Breeding dogs is expensive and trying to go against every one else in a breed can get you quickly ostracized (see LUA dalmations for example). It makes it scary to feel like you've got to throw out your dogs that you're so invested in. Thinking about this in my breed, Rhodesian Ridgebacks are sometimes born with dermoid sinus which is linked to the ridge and even though that's not a lifelong health issue and is easily surgically repairable - good breeders pay to get it removed - (definitely not on the level of brachy dog problems), it would be a hard decision to breed out ridges in order to get rid of dermoid sinus because ridges are an integral part of the breed that I love. If DS meant that the dogs suffered for the rest of their life though, I think we'd need to start breeding ridgeless dogs in (as DS is much more likely with two dominant ridge genes). That would also be scary to pioneer as a breeder, because everyone in the breed could blacklist you as a "bad breeder" and then no one buys your puppies and you can't influence the breed anyway. Why humans gotta be so tribalist? Anyway, just musings on my part. Thanks for your thoughts.

[@juicesnap]

@12:36 My cousin has a shih tzu and a golden retriever. The shih tzu is way more hyper than the golden. the poor boy you can tell wants to exercise more but his breathing is bad.

[@gwynethpotter3216]

Very well thought out and spoken argument! I think her bias is evident here based on the evidence, well said!

[@DVMCellini]

Thanks gwyneth!

[@KyleElias]

Wow Jim thanks for bringing light to this. I am shocked there are veterinarians that take a stand on brachycephalic animals like this! We all learn a scientific, evidence based veterinary medical education - so these pod cast's arguments are just a fallacy. Very well laid out points. Again, like you I am very biased as an ER Vet that I only see the really sick ones.... but always related to their brachycephaly right? Along with my conformationally normal great dane, I also have a rescue pug who is the epitome of the problem - I chose to give her a second chance in life, but would I want to breed more pugs...NOPE (unless crossing with beagles or such to get that muzzle back to normal becomes the norm for the breed standard 😅)

[@DVMCellini]

Good on you for giving your pug girl a chance at a good life!

[@leftymind2977]

Can you please do a video on flat faced cats?

[@Lemonade_Stand_]

Thank you for reacting to this. My sister has boston terriers and i recently got into an argument with someone who basically said my sister was a bad person for 1. Owning brachy dogs and 2. For living in a hot climate with them I realize that brachycephalic dogs have an increased risk for a variety of conditions but that doesnt mean that EVERY brachy is unhealthy or has these conditions. Cancer or diabetes could run in your family but that doesnt mean that you are 100% going to get it, it's just something additional to be mindful of and keep an eye out for. My sister's first boston was a very healthy dog with minimal issues until he developed a brain tumour which to my knowledge is not something that the breed is prone to having. As for living in a warm climate; NO DOG does well in heat, brachy or not. Sure there are days where she doesnt take her dogs to the park because its 40 degrees celsius but i wouldnt take my lab out in 40 degrees either. I dont promote or encourage brachys but im also not going to call someone a bad owner just for owning one. With ANY dog you should be doing research and be aware of possible conditions that they are prone too.

[@Natalie.Skye.Miller12]

Actually brachycephalic dogs are at higher risk of brain tumors...

[@Lemonade_Stand_]

@@Natalie.Skye.Miller12 i thought it was only for a specific type of brain tumour. He had a tumour on his pituitary gland

[@actipton80]

I don't understand why that vet would want to intentionally breed dogs that are known to have health problems. Also the thing about brachycephalic dogs being bred to be companions gets me. Dogs aren't happy if they just sit around all day. My dog is a great companion who loves to sit on laps, and be held, but she does tend to get cranky if she doesn't get her walk. She is not brachycephalic so she can handle walks of two, three, four miles and not have to be carried any. People are surprised at how much energy such a little dog can have.

[@tessadooley1313]

I have a bulldog/pug with the short snout and she has issues eating she snores very loud and gags she also has reverse sneezes all the time we had a Boston terrier that had those same issues as well in order to make eating easier for them we had to get bigger food bowls so their little noses don't get squished while eating and can breathe properly

[@annepfeiffer2981]

What is your opinion of olde english bulldogges? Is that an example of effective outcrossing?

[@awander9314]

They have fewer problems

[@jean-sebastienlatouche3678]

What is an "honor bound" breeder in that context?? That might apply to all animal husbandry... I am sure that the prize winning Holstein with the udder almost touching the ground would have something to say if she could.

[@Natalie.Skye.Miller12]

I really wish more people would talk about the horrible breeding practices we have inflicted on livestock :(

[@SnugB83]

To me I don't know if it's their tongues are bigger or different so much more then you put a "normal length" say 40 lb dog's tongue into the head of dog missing half it's face. Meaning the tongue doesn't fit in that short of mouth properly as it was never meant to in such a short face in the first place.

[@DVMCellini]

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7998523/

[@SnugB83]

Forgot to mention I find it funny they always say these types of breeds are lap dogs and not much energy... I've got "mutts" that are all various levels of French bulldog, English bulldog, one has spent and the others have Staffordshire bull terrier in them and their all at least half Boston terrier as well to and not one of them is lazy lol! Lap dog absolutely as they love people. But they are ready to go all day of you want. Do still have to take a bit more care in the heat even though mine all have longer muzzles still. But nothing like the KC Bulldog's, pugs, Frenchie's and peke's I see all the time

[@amberrider7275]

Great video!! It’s kind of scary that a veterinarian who’s whole job is to care about the health and well being of animals is spreading this kind of information… her biased is very strong.

[@keiran.6090]

I have a shih tzu/Maltese mix rescue, and it wasn't until sometime after I got her that I realized how LUCKY she was to have a normal length muzzle. She occasionally snores, but so does my Yorkie. By this lady's logic, "teacup" dogs aren't inherently unhealthy, just because there is a chance they won't have a myriad of health issues 🙄

[@broccolirob905]

By her logic you could also take your German Shepard and sedate them to make them better companions… that doesn’t make it ok. Honestly that would probably be better for the dogs welfare than having them struggle to breathe everyday or their life.

[@RKC-1234]

I got a boxer in the early 90’s, then a boxer mix (half boxer, half ‘fence jumper’ (had an older lady ask me if that was a French breed)), and while the full boxer had a shorter snout than my springer, he still had plenty of room for a head harness. The mix had a lab muzzle, though the dna test said Pyrenees, beagle, super mutt. I recently lost the boxer mix after almost 13 years, and 13 with the previous full one. Despite the dog aggression, loved the breed, so went looking. Dang, so many are very flat faced! Also huge! And I saw so many frenchies wheezing in the waiting room when my mix had issues at the senior part of life, even the puppies We felt guilty accidentally heat exhausting the full boxer when he was 12 at White Sands-lesson learned! I am now looking at other breeds to consider if we don’t just foster fail

[@ashleyc7287]

When a dog is happy to remain intubated while awake and walking around.... there's a problem..

[@DVMCellini]

Yyyyyup!

[@CreamyJalapeno]

I guess I’m the odd one because I don’t find flat faced dogs or cats cute. They kind of weird me out.

[@DVMCellini]

No I think that’s normal

[@celiakistner323]

I don’t think they are cute either. I think so many people “think” they are cute because that’s what society has decided (I feel this way about doodles as well but that’s a whole other thing). People aren’t getting these dogs for anything other than looks and to say they have one.

[@CreamyJalapeno]

@@celiakistner323 I agree on the doodles as well. They are everywhere. Someone in my neighborhood has a giant poodle instead of a doodle and it’s even less attractive. They do the whole poodle 🐩 haircut too. Blech.

[@celiakistner323]

@@CreamyJalapeno poodle people can be kinda crazy sometimes lol. I guess its better than having a doodle though! I had someone that was bringing in their two mini golden doodles to get a vaccine at the clinic I work at and when I went out to get them they were walking them outside (or should I say the O were being walked by the dogs) and then apologized that they weren't leashed trained. So many people that havent had dogs before get doodles that know nothing about behavior/training and just expect them to be well behaved. Maybe you should leash train your dogs then so they aren't dragging you around! I don't see well behaved doodles often.

[@wildog47]

I don't like them at all. Neither does my dog. There was an English bulldog my MIL friend had and my dog was so afraid and weirded out by his breathing.

[@janetjohnson6897]

Sadly he’s based his opinion on what he sees the most in his practice. That’s Brachys bred by puppy millers , bybs and the clients that want to show their kids and family the birth .

[@nanseecat3871]

Help me to understand this. Is the brachycephaly (short face) the cause of the breathing problems, or the stenotic nares and/or elongated palate? Can't there be a brachycephalic that doesn't have these specific problems, or does brachycephaly mean the dog *will* have these airway problem? Shouldn't breeders be looking at these specific airway problems rather than just the physiognomy of the face? I guess, in simple terms, can a breeding program produce brachycephalic animals w/out breathing problems?

[@DVMCellini]

The short face 🪗’s all the nasal and palate tissue into a smaller space - those structures are not proportionally shortened along with the nose. With them all smashed in a smaller box, air can’t flow through it. In addition the nostrils are narrowed so there is less air even getting in to begin with. Some brachycephalic breeds don’t frequently have breathing issues. For instance, boxers are brachycephalic but there’s still enough nose left on most boxers so you don’t see many with airway problems. Instead they get malignant brain cancer which is also related to brachycephaly. A breeding program may be able to produce brachycephalic dogs without breathing problems but they’d have to be less brachycephalic. In other words - not what they look like now and essentially a different breed.

[@jronkowski4346]

Thanks very informative

[@kennikitty]

"Is brachycephaly unhealthy?" Yes

[@Malsperanza]

Can we also talk about some other recent barbaric breeding fads? Making cats with shortened legs (like dachshunds) is revolting. What is cute about a cat that can't do any of the things cats naturally do? Jumping, chasing, balance, agility. Hairless cats also seem problematic to me, though I know people with cat hair allergies would say otherwise.

[@erin9892]

I think that last point about people doing illegal things because it’s illegal could have stemmed from the argument of legalising weed where there’s evidence that proves it to be true. It’s a pretty common argument in discussions around legalising certain stuff. If that’s the case, however, she probably has some sort of misunderstanding because brachycephaly is a completely different issue

[@DVMCellini]

Yeah the difference being one is a drug you can choose to use or not and the other is a living animal who would prefer to be healthy if it had a choice.

[@janetroush5775]

I don't know how that vet can believe what she is saying. I think breeding brachy dogs is cruel considering all the problems it causes for the dog.

[@billygoat7060]

Yes!

[@KayTee979]

As a veterinarian, there is 10000% a place for purpose bred, well bred purebred dogs (this video does not at any point indicate there isn't just stating my opinion here as it shows I am not out/against purebred dogs when I discuss brachycephlic ones below). After seeing the direction shelter medicine is going and the absolutely shady and quite frankly should be illegal practices of the shelters in the area I am located, I refuse to adopt a dog from any of the shelters near me. The "adopt, don't shop mantra" has ruined shelter medicine. The public pressure to attempt to save every dog regardless of its severe behavioral issues is appalling and putting shelter workers, volunteers, fosters and the public in danger. The shelters out here are putting known behavior issue dogs on behavior modification medications and then not disclosing this or their behavior issues to the people that proceed to adopt the dog. I have a neighbor whose daughter was attacked by a dog whose prior history was not told to her, kid needed a couple surgeries. Not to mention, the increase adoption demand has made adopting a dog (especially a puppy) with no known health history or behavioral history expensive. I have seen puppies up to $1000 at a shelter. I can get a purebred dog of a breed I know will fit my lifestyle (an absolute gamble if a dog I adopt will fit my lifestyle or not) whose parents had all the OFA hips/elbows, eye, cardiac, etc testing and the breeder knowledge of that puppy's parent's, grandparent's, great-grandparent's temperaments for only $1000-2000 more. Having said that, I do NOT understand the drive/desire of brachycephlic breeds. I just do not understand the appeal of having a dog that constantly snorts, pants, snores, snarks, has bad skin, smelly skin folds, has multiple other health issues (hemivertebrae, screw tails). And anyone who claims that brachycephaly isn't contributing to health issues of brachycephalic dogs is being intentionally deflective. That isn't to say every brachycephalic dog will have issues, but the vast majority do. I am a strong supporter of pure bred, health tested, purpose bred dogs, but I have a hard time supporting the breeding of brachycephalic dog breeds. If there could be proof that the breeds could be improved and the health issues bred out of the breed over time, I could maybe consider it, but I don't know if that evidence exists. Other pure breds have health issues, but the breeders are actively working on trying to remove those from the breed. Low uric acid dalmatians. Testing for and avoiding VwD in domermans. Testing for degenerative myleopathy in breeds it is common in, so on and so forth. These are health issues that can be avoided and not change the look/structure of the breed. I think in order to breed out brachycephalic airway diseases in the brachycephalic dogs they are going to have to completely alter the structure of the dog and I don't see the breed clubs going for that.

[@christyt3949]

I am wary of shelters, too. After the death of my Boston Terrier, I went to a shelter looking for a dog. When they heard the magic words, "single owner with no kids," they thought it was a green light to unload Cujo the (almost) kid killer. When I told them this was NOT what I wanted, they tried to guilt trip me into taking it because it was too problematic to place the dog anywhere else. I took off out the door and went to a rescue where I got a sweet, wonderful dog. There are too many loving dogs in need of homes that are in danger of euthanasia. There is no reason to place a dangerous dog instead of a nice one. But one thing I must mention--I had Boston Terriers, and so did other people I used to know. All of our dogs ran, played, and had a good life. Videos like this one make it sound like they're all about to collapse from a lack of air.

[@Natalie.Skye.Miller12]

I find it interesting you criticize shelters and find them so unethical, but not the Dalmatian club that fought against LUA Dalmatians for DECADES until the AKC overrode them and forced them to accept registration. Nowadays LUAs make up such a small portion of the Dal population I'm surprised you used them as an example of "reputable breeders removing this feature from the breed" but you are apparently unaware that it is linked to the coat? ONLY OUTCROSSING will breed the issue out but the "reputable" breeders you spoke of do not support that because they value purity over all else! You also forgot about the deafness that plagues 30% of the breed (22% in one ear 8% in both ears) and that the breed club supports KILLING 8% of their breed!!!! For problems they BRED into the dog because - coat color! Also von willebrands in Dobermans...you do realize that 60% of Dobermans roughly are affected with DCM with sudden death being the most common symptom? Again because breeders will not outcross. So they continue to breed DCM to DCM (ahem Dobermans). They also force their puppies to undergo the removal of their tails and ear leather, but hey shelters are the real villains here! Dogs maul about 20 people a year, it's really not an epidemic! Oh and it's not just von willebrands and DCM that affects Dobermans. They also get liver problems, dancing disease, IVDD, cancer, wobblers etc. How as a veterinarian are you so unaware of the connection between closed gene pools and the high burden of disease in purebred dogs??? And you hold people inbreeding these dogs as the "reputable" ones.

[@crystalkarlson5491]

It's a "good thing" because it is the sacred breed standard.... Good Lord help us all. When will the AKC and whomever else wake up and realize that things need to change in order for these breeds to continue on?

[@crystalkarlson5491]

And my Frenchton would go on a hike in a heartbeat! She runs my GSD constantly, and thankfully can do so. These two are discussing bits and pieces that fit their agenda.

[@scottishgirl1100]

I will never own one of these breeds. It’s so cruel. Only Mini Schnauzers or a Lab.

[@jenniferrosenberry7662]

I’ve met way too many energetic pigs and bostons. They just can’t tolerate it

[@EmilyEverglot]

7:05

[@awander9314]

These dogs suffer every day.

[@christyt3949]

I kept multiple Boston Terriers for about 30 years. They ran, played, tore around the house and yard, terrorized cats and squirrels, jumped on and off the furniture, and live a normal dog lifespan. They did normal dog activities. They were perfectly fine, and so were other Bostons that I knew of, from both dog show and backyard breeder bloodlines. I heard that some members of the breed had breathing issues, but never saw this issue. Listening to this and the comments makes it sound like the entire breed is about to collapse from a lack of air. Vets probably see the ones with issues, but I would not hesitate to own another one if it were offered to me due to worrying about this.

[@janetjohnson6897]

So in other words her bias = yours but in a different way . 🤷‍♀️