Dyepot PS #20 - Citric Acid vs Vinegar; Breaking Violet at Different pH

[@pixiepout]

I utterly love chemistry. I have a bachelor's in biomedical science with a minor in chemistry and it makes me so happy to hear you explain some to your expected/observed results with actual chemistry! I love your channel so much! I love watching you do what you do! I'm not a yarn dyer but I'm a yarn enthusiasts haha I like to knit and crochet

[@kateryan190]

Excellent video Rebecca! I love the scientific explanation of the difference between the types of acid & how they effect the dyes used.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

THank you so much! I'm glad you found this one helpful, I was suprised to see it myself

[@pattigolden1]

Actually really love the purple gradient! And the mottled look of the low/no acid. 💜

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

thank you, Patti!

[@angelamarie3525]

That blue is gorgeous! This is so interesting! I can't stop watching these video's. 💙💜💙💜

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Thank you so much!

[@debt8632]

Thank you Rebecca for the interesting video. I loved seeing those colors separate. I am not a yarn dyer but Jennifer from Cinnamon Stitches has mentioned you. I love your chem lingo and the fact that you have a pH meter laying around! Thanks for the qualitative analysis!😉👍

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I'm so glad you liked it! I got the pH meter to do a project like this but then decided to go wider with the range for the first time. It would be fiddly and frustrating to vary the pH too small and not get big results. This gives us a range to work back from. :D

[@fujierobesky5651]

This was sooooo educational. Your a fantastic teacher and I love your exploration nature. Thank you.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

You are so welcome!

[@ThePhantazmya]

I'm a huge fan of citric acid for no other reason than the smell factor. While there are a few differences it performs comparably to vinegar and I also like that you can get stronger concentrations with the citric acid. With vinegar you are limited to the 5% solution that is in the jug. If you ever do a follow up video to this I would be very interested to know the ph values of the acid water before use and after the dye is exhausted. I don't have a background in chemistry and one thing I've been curious about but never found an answer to is if the acid is being consumed by the dye process or is the acidity just a catalyst for the bonding process. Can you (theoretically) repeatedly use the same stock to keep dyeing yarn forever or is there a limit to how much dye the solution can handle before it's no better than straight tap water?

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I would LOVE to check this with the pH meter as well!

[@alyssacowan5050]

REBECCA!!! I love the first citric acid one that you did! I know someone who loves both lavender and dark purple that is going to love a pair of mittens with that colorway. Since my local stores are out of the violet color (thanks COVID...), I am waiting for mine to arrive from Amazon. I tend to use Lion Brand Fisherman's Wool (227g skein), would it still be 1T citric acid in 8 cups of tap water, or would I have to double the solution? Thanks! Hope you are doing well during this lock down in MA.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I'm so sorry for the late reply. You should be fine with the same concentration of acid that I used. In my experience the Lion Brand Fisherman's wool has a bit more lanolin in it so it takes longer to absorb colors (so just keep that in mind.) Good luck!

[@jeangreenfield5993]

Would you ever use a digital PH meter ? (obviously the PH paper is cheaper). More precise ?

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I hope to at some point, I have one in my stash. I think it would have helped with my estimations between the citric acid mixture vs vinegar.

[@psdumas]

I practically failed chem in HS, but, if you were my teacher back in the day, I would of listened.Great explanations. I love purple yarn. Would do anything to get it and gradients.. So, I'm watching..

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Awe, thank you! There was a point in time when I wanted to be a Chemistry teacher. :D

[@psdumas]

@@ChemKnitsTutorials I have never dyed wool before, but I'm getting the stuff to do it. I want Purples... I LOVE purples..gradients..whatever. What's the best to start with? Wilton Purple with no acid to start, then add later on in dipping? Thanks, teacher! :-)

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

@@psdumas EIther! Dip dyeing is pretty easy to play with, but now that I'm typing this kettle dyeing (all in one pot) was how I first got started.

[@monrovin]

I'm confused-You say that more acid = less color breaking and but then around the 20 min mark, you say "the higher the pH, the faster colors absorb" and "use a lower pH to allow the color to strike slower to get more of a spread." I am crazy? I thought a lower pH is more acidic?

[@shonaguthrie848]

My tap water is 8.3 according to my cheap pH meter. No wonder I was needing so much more vinegar that you were using! Thank you for sharing.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Yup! That is why I try to mention it sometimes because the tap pH really can determine how much vinegar etc you need.

[@lauramissy7492]

Curiosity is getting to me... is the hardness of the water going to have an effect. My tap water is from a well, and is very hard. I could use a control of distilled water and compare.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I'm curious, too!

[@harrietlove1953]

Wow this is very cool! I do love the chemistry and maths you go into (I'm a high school chem teacher and knitting obsessive) :D. Question: I was always under the impression that animal fibre needs an acid dye of some sort, and you're using food colouring. How do you find it lasts through multiple washes etc? I struggle to find the chemistry explanations online as most of it is written by non-chemists!

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Hi Harriet - Food coloring is a type of acid dye, so it ultimately behaves similarly. I've had great success with washing, but I've found that some food coloring pigments are much less lightfast (especially that Red #3) than other commercial dyes. (Granted - commercial acid dyes have a range of light fasteness too, but that is more of a factor in their development)

[@ooohlaa13]

OMGosh I have to watch this again, so many subtle clues and things I never thought about. Your BV years ago made me run out and try it and it came beautiful but no idea what I actually did for sure. I am this week in mood to do again, just 2 skeins for a cowl, and I love love the one with just the purples almost as much. I always use citric for convenience but never occurred to me there could be such variation. FYI as a start point this might help, I found from my notes but don't know where from maybe Sara Eyres from Craftsy? To substitute distilled white vinegar for citric acid: 1T acid = 11T vinegar. No one has discussed the variables so this is so great! BTW what is the length of the hank? Mine seems lots longer it is around 48"L 99 circ thanx

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

This is super helpful! I tried to google substitutions while I was doing this video and I couldn't find the information ANYWHERE!

[@ooohlaa13]

@@ChemKnitsTutorials good ... do you recall the length guesstimate of your skein?

[@kenna8828]

I’ve often wondered what the initial pH of your tap water was...Thank you! Where I live, our tap water is quite hard (lots if dissolved minerals) and alkaline (pH ~8 or higher and quite variable).... I get better results testing pH off the tap first and using pickling vinegar (“7% acidity “ vs 5% in reg vinegar) or slightly more citric acid... I think starting with a higher pH does allow for a little more control when I want things to break but does require me to add more acid than other people would (can be fussier). Something to consider and a great visual demonstration! As always, another great video! 🥰

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Thank you, Kenna! It helped when I finally first tested my tap water pH because it made it easier for me to help troubleshoot with other people. I can get away with less acid than others, I think, but also it means that those red #3's will strike right away!

[@marianneknapp4846]

OMG is that Purple 💜 Love it

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Thank you so much!

[@jeangreenfield5993]

(you answered my question during video 😊👍💙) ! Love your videos 💟

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I'm always happy when that happens (and of course I'm responding in reverse order so I'll answer that for anyone else who is curious.) ;) And I love your comments, Jean!

[@WhattheBeck]

this is so cool. i cant wait to try it soon

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Yay!

[@WhattheBeck]

@@ChemKnitsTutorials I had my sibling over yesterday and we had SO much fun with it- i am hoping to have a video about it soon :) thanks for being detailed about what steps you took!

[@berthawhittaker2082]

Rebecca you are the best I'm tie dye T-shirts ,and your videos help me a lot thanks

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I'm so glad I could help!

[@howlingwind1937]

Would using brown vinegar or apple cider vinegar make much of a difference? Thank you for an interesting video, I've only recently discovered your youtube videos so I'm going through them all each day. Thank you, merry christmas, be happy, be safe. Cheers!

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I'm not sure if the color in brown vinegar or cider vinegar would tint the yarn much at all, but it could mute some of the brightness if the yarn takes up that brown color. (to a slight tan.) With something this saturated it might not be visible. I'm not sure on the pH difference between white and other vinegar types, but functionally all vinegar is acetic acid. They are likely just different concentrations and the others have some other things in there as well.

[@howlingwind1937]

Thank you for a reply, yes I thought that maybe the case but just wanted to know for sure, I also just wondered about the apple cider vinegar as the stuff I can get it's usually brewed as opposed to man made, and was curious if it reacted differently. Well, thank you for satisfying my curiosity. Cheers!

[@lizbrims5928]

So interesting thank you Rebecca for this video. I always use citric acid powder for dyeing but I decided to try the white vinegar last weekend. The dye struck well and I use Martha’s eucalyptus wool wash to rinse out the yarn initially. I must have rinsed the yarn around 8 to 10 times before the soapy bubbles cleared. This hadn’t happened before with the CA so I put it down to some kind of reaction with the vinegar. I’m very interested in your thoughts about this. As I was rinsing for the third or fourth time it crossed my mind that you may know why this happened and today here is the perfect video to explain the two acids. Thanks for your channel Rebecca.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Oh goodness... I'm not sure what would have happened with the soap, but I doubt it is the vinegar. I don't normally use wool wash, though, so I couldn't say for sure.

[@lizbrims5928]

Thanks Rebecca good to know. Love your channel.

[@lgassin]

Awesome, Rebecca, thank you. I love all your videos, but I especially love it when you go hard on math and science :) ("Go hard" is relative, of course...for you it's probably still pretty light!)

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I debated it a bit and decided to go on a really broad look for the first in depth pH conversation. I'm thrilled I got some dramatic results!

[@dominiquemichaud7945]

Can citric acid stay in solution for a long time?

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Hmmmmm... probably but I'm not 100% sure if it would go bad. Citric acid is a preservative so there's that. But it is super easy to dissolve so I don't think I'd make a stock of it.

[@marianneknapp4846]

What would happen if I put Blue food color and Red Food Color in equal parts in the same pan? Thanks

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

You could get a beautiful layered look. The reds would likely strike first - but you could still see some breaking. Most reds are a combination of Red 40 and Red 3 so the purple wouldn't be exact. But I do have some color mixing food coloring videos (search the channel for triangle) that can help with the proportions.

[@MariasQuiltsCraftsAndCrochet]

WOW this is awesome! thank you Rebecca!

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

You're very welcome!

[@FlybyStardancer]

Oh wow that citric acid yarn!!

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Yeah - I was SO SURPRISED!

[@hiraakter3767]

Can i do it by posian colour in pure cotton and in garments accessories cotton thread

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Hi, You cannot dye cotton yarn with food coloring, unfortunately. You need animal (protein fibers)

[@coreybeasley8209]

I wonder what would happen if you mixed 1 tablespoon of citric acid in 1 cup vinegar when dyeing yarn.. hmm the color possibilities

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

You certainly could use both citric acid and vinegar together, but the color differences are mostly due to the pH of the solutions versus the specific acid you're using.

[@davidhensley76]

Would lemon or lime juice work similarly to vinegar? Juice would be more expensive, but it's probably a similar ph to vinegar.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I'm sure that those would work totally fine. I'm honestly not sure on the pH - it would depend on how much you add. But certainly it would be more expensive!

[@pianogurls2]

Amazing Colors!!!😍💣💯

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Thank you so much!

[@cmowery72]

Now I wonder what the pH of Kool-aid is, and if different flavors have different amounts of citric acid, and therefore different pH.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Hmmm... it is very possible that different flavors have different amounts of citric acid. I haven't actually considered that before.

[@marianneknapp4846]

Tell us when 💜

[@cm4107]

I don't know if it's my setup at home or not, but about every 2 minutes, the video would stop and buffer. I had to manually advance over the blip, then it would stop and buffer again. I really am interested in this experiment, so I will try to watch at some other point. 🙁🙁

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

This is so frustrating! I'm sorry. I just checked the video jumping around (someone else had an issue, too) and it was working fine with some short buffering. I'm wondering if KZbin is having some issues? I've experienced something similar lately on some videos where I have to completely restart the app to get them to play again because they never come out of buffering. Processing has been complete on this video for about a month now. I would think it could be the video itself if I had just uploaded the video this morning maybe, but it has been up for a while. :(

[@ThePhantazmya]

I didn't have that problem with this video but I've had that happen with other recent videos and streams on youtube. I think it's something on KZbin's end. Sometimes refreshing the page helps.

[@ooohlaa13]

@@ChemKnitsTutorials mine was fine here for a change,I live rural so I get issues sometimes but your sound is almost always right on even with mask

[@cm4107]

I figured it was my setup. Trying to watch while using internet to work can sometimes be a bad idea. 😁 I will try to catch it on my phone later.

[@christinegibson908]

ARE YOU USING FOOD GRADE CITRIC ACID OR INDUSTRIAL?

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Food grade.

[@valerieellison2483]

That purple gradient with the lavender/whitish on the end looks like amethyst.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

It does!!!

[@henniemulder2853]

anyone knows how golden yellow does color breaking what result do one get ?

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I don't think Golden Yellow would break very much, maybe super subtle. I'm not sure if I've dip dyed with that one though. Creamy peach breaks beautifully as an orangish color. Yellow/orange can be hard because super concentrated yellow does look orangeish

[@PixieSugar1991]

What if I was to use cleaning vinegar? That has a higher acidity

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I'm not sure what the concentration is of cleaning vinegar vs cooking, but you can do a simple calculation of C1* V1 = C2* V2 (concentration * volume. The ratio of the two concentrations will help you determine how much less vinegar you'd need.)

[@hiraakter3767]

Which vinegar si need to dye is it food vinegar or other

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I use food grade vinegar.

[@hiraakter3767]

Can you give us this colour

[@Amethyst1919]

Should have compared 1 T of vinegar to 1/4 tsp of citric acid... You would have soon comparable results... and FYI: citric acid will dissolve pretty much on contact with hot water, so adding it to a hot dyebath would be similar to adding the vinegar to it.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I didn't have the proportions on hand when I was starting and I struggled to find them. :( But the last one was pretty close.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I want to do this next time. 😀

[@jodiekingsley5181]

Love the color

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Thank you!

[@ewallis539]

You said the higher the pH, the faster colors would strike. You meant the higher the acidity (lower pH) instead. Might want to edit the video there. I know you know the difference :)

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

I think I meant to say the higher the acidity and likely mispoke.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Unfortunately I cannot add a text correction to a video after the fact - the only option I have would be to to take the video down.

[@darlacreekmore9641]

Why doesn’t the yarn felt when u boil it

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Great question! if I were to move the yarn around a LOT in the pot with it boiling, then you might start to see some felting. But with the absence of a log of agitation then yarn stays in great shape. In my experience thus far I find the washing step to be a bigger danger for felting than the dyeing step since I'm usually handling the yarn a lot more then.

[@MissGroves]

Yay science!!!

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

It was fun to broadly look at the pH changes here. The citric acid one blew me away!

[@MissGroves]

@@ChemKnitsTutorials citric acid seems to have made the purple more stable, striking those colours more evenly

[@avalontampsett5023]

I thought you used less citric acid and it might break the same as vinegar.

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

At the very end that's what I did. :)

[@oldwoman123]

Thank you, thank you!!!!!

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

You're very welcome!

[@hasnaaplus6996]

♥️♥️♥️♥️🌺🌺🌺🌺

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

Thank you!

[@jeangreenfield5993]

💜💜💜💜💜💜💝

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

These popped up so fast after I released this video that I had to grin.

[@ooohlaa13]

love the purple hearts, so apropos!

[@samanthak5831]

Westsise

[@hasnaaplus6996]

You are so sweet ... like you

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

😊 thank you

[@hiraakter3767]

In bd

[@hasnaaplus6996]

You are so sweet ... like you

[@ChemKnitsTutorials]

😊 thank you