DYK: Only Females are "Virgins" in the Bible

[@johnburn8031]

Interesting, thank you for sharing this with us. I'm glad we're moving past such barbaric ideas about women and sex.

[@chables74]

Thanks Dr Bird!

[@seoigh]

The word has only started applying to males in the American vernacular during my lifetime. It sounded odd to me at first, if I am being honest. I didn't grow up religious, but being a male in this culture (approximately Dr. Bird's age), meant I was indoctrinated with the idea that virginity was specifically a feminine asset (both words chosen carefully) -- and outside that context the word had no meaning. Strange, right?

[@KasperKatje]

The use of the hymen/blood myth also shows the laws don't come from god since he should have known it's a myth as "the creator". Or at least that god didn't care and is immoral and a misogynist.

[@davidross2004]

So...taking a woman's "virginity" in this sense means asserting one's "right" as a man to inflict violence against her? Wow...I can see how some might take this further to justify other forms of domestic violence. Absolutely disgusting.

[@kevincrady2831]

There is one exception that I can think of, the passage in Revelation about the 144,000, who are males, but are said to be virgins "because they have not defiled themselves with women." ...Which is not only a classic "exception that proves the rule," it's also at least equally misogynistic, but in a different way.

[@MegaPeedee]

I have noticed this in the Bible and it just adds to the entire silly notions about this mythical place called Heaven, as silly as the idea of Hell, purgatory, Limbo and Sheol. It is astounding that we can put people into space and do so many wonderful things but we can't let go of ridiculous primitive ideas, and the books that promulgate them.

[@JenniferBirdPhD]

Yes, I thought I left that bit in this clip. They are “male virgins,” which just reinforces the point that a virgin is a female: to use it to refer to a male “virgin” y you have to qualify it. Very much like certain things were assumed to be for males and when it applies to females *they* have the qualifier. NBA vs WNBA; PGA vs Women’s PGA, etc.

[@JenniferBirdPhD]

Your observations wasn't in this clip so I put it in the description to this clip.

[@tezzerii]

@@JenniferBirdPhD As far as I can see, it doesn't say "male virgins", just virgins, not qualified, although it's certainly implied that they are men. Or is it different in Greek ? I never understood this business of "not defiled with women".

[@JenniferBirdPhD]

@@tezzerii it partially depends upon the translation you are using. I agree that not having sex would qualify as “being a virgin,” generally speaking. I am trying to highlight that the label itself is only used with women. To apply that specific label to males you have to qualify it, “male virgins.” NBA vs WNBA. That kind of a thing. It tells us that the assumption is that term was applied to women.

[@borntodiy]

I’m currently living for the theory that Mary was a hermaphrodite

[@Here_For_Now]

I never thought about the fact that it might have been done roughly on purpose so that blood would appear 😕 So glad I left that mind prison...

[@purplesprigs]

Ecclesiasticus 25:24 - "Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die."

[@JenniferBirdPhD]

It’s a sad claim to make; even more saddening that it is canonized, eh?

[@munbruk]

It makes sense. A woman womb is a shared space between both parents. BTW, it is still working the same way.

[@youngknowledgeseeker]

Agreed, however, for all women to be virgins, the males would by default also have to be virgins. I am inferring this, I understand. Also, I understand the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) doesn't work that way. Men can have multiple wives, it's not uncommon for royalty to have concubines, though it can be disreputable men visit prostitutes, etc. However, I would think an Israelite from a economically mild family would have sons that wouldn't experience sex until marriage. At least that would be the expectation. I don't understand whyJepthahs daughter can't mourn that she never got to have a husband and kids, which clearly involves sex? I would mourn too if i knew i was going to die without ever having a wife and kids or was forced into celibacy. Sex isn't something separate from procreation and a spouse, and there's way more than just sex involved in a marriage relation. And yes, men also desire sex with women in the same way women desire sex from men. This is natural. it's just not good for that to be the *only* thing you desire.

[@JenniferBirdPhD]

I am talking about the way this label is used. It is never used to refer to a male, except in Revelation, and in that case the narrator qualifies it by saying, "male virgins," since a "virgin" is technically a female. Do you see what I am trying to point out?

[@youngknowledgeseeker]

@JenniferBirdPhD Yes I do, and to clarify I did agree with that. Maybe I had inferred incorrectly that other ideas were also being proposed by you as well. Pardon me if I was incorrect. Most of all, thank you for your kind and polite response.

[@JenniferBirdPhD]

@@youngknowledgeseeker You did say, "Agreed," and then followed with the comment about all men by default also being such. The point I am trying to make is that the label was never used to talk about men, except for in that one exception in Rev 14:4. This is why it does not matter in the biblical texts whether men have had sex with women prior to "settling down" in our vernacular. Just look at the fact that there are two full lists in Lev 18 & 20 of all the women a man could not have sex with (it is not talking about whom they could or could not take for themselves/marry!). So enough men had to be having sex .... enough to require that obvious list twice. I would argue that it is not disgraceful, not entirely, for men to employ sex workers; it is loudly condemned for women to be such a person, but not quite so clearly judged to be the man using her services. (The carry over to today is deafening!) The language about Jephthah is that they mourn that she will be able to give a man sex. Period. I am trying to highlight how starkly different they were talking about these things than we tend to do. They mourn specifically that she will die a virgin, NOT that she will not have children, etc. A "virgin" is a body that hasn't been used by a man yet. It really is important to me that people sit with the rawness of things in these texts. Peace ~

[@youngknowledgeseeker]

@JenniferBirdPhD "they mourn that she will [not] be able to give a man sex, period". As I said, I don't think so. But we can agree to disagree, I proport your importing a magnified hyper-sexualized eisegesis here. A womans virginity was prized for a marriage [in the Torah] and sex was linked with progeny. I still appreciate you sharing with me and responding. Regardless, you are the phd, not me. I'm assuming you are coming to your conclusions based on a lot of information and study.

[@JenniferBirdPhD]

@@youngknowledgeseeker Yes, I am trying to help people see how raw and objectifying these ancient texts are. Judges 11:38, "“Go,” he said, and he sent her away for two months. So she departed, she and her companions, and bewailed her virginity on the mountains." They bewailed her virginity, her status as a bitulah. They did not mourn her pending death; they did mourn "that she would have no children," they mourned her status as a virgin when she would die. This is solely an issue for men - a woman's status as a bitulah only matters in terms of how pure or impure she is deemed to be for a man when she would be sold to him.