What Are Junk Miles and Are They Ruining Your Training? The Science

Junk miles are time spent training that is either a waste of your time or even worse, actively making you slower. Is there an intensity or type of training that can be considered junk miles and is riding like this hurting your progress? I dive into the science to try to come up with an answer.
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[@DylanJohnsonCycling]

For those looking to step up their training: Online training plans -> www.dylanjohnsontraining.com/training-plans Coaching -> www.ignitioncoachco.com/signup If you like my work consider supporting me on Patreon and get access to weekly members only Q&As: www.patreon.com/dylanjawnson

[@thomasspotzl4240]

I like your video, but your audio volume is always quite low. Would be nice if you could turn it up a notch.

[@davidwargin1766]

I think I’m the junk mile king. 🙃 Great videos - hope to see you somewhere in ‘23. (I took off ‘22.)

[@FrankZen]

I guess if you're a competitive racer, this is more relevant but I ride for BOTH fun and exercise. I'm not the fastest ride but I definitely ride faster and longer than when I first started. But I enjoy all of my rides whether they're leisurely or a workout.

[@curtiskeller6702]

Are you still coaching for Ignition Coaching? You're not listed as a coach on the site?

[@taburetca]

Wtf? if you translate this into a conventional system of 5 zones. I should only ride in the 4th and 5th zone. and how can the pulse be more than the maximum in zones 5-7 ???

[@yoda112358]

Mental health is definitely a huge component of this. Sometimes yes you do want to "waste your time" on the bike just noodling around because you just need to go for a bike ride for your own sanity.

[@Ecapone1199]

Half the reason I started cycling is to get out and spin 😊

[@paulrwilsonjr]

Keeping my sanity is the only reason I ride a bike.

[@joerenner8334]

This is a super important part of riding a bike!

[@joerenner8334]

@@Ecapone1199 Exactly. Pro training is for pros. Some people over do it

[@Matthew-ez4ze]

Perfectly said. I'm rarely happier than going for a long ride by myself, or with a fast competitive group.

[@roganshorthair]

For those of us not trying to win races but rather trying to survive life on this godforsaken rock without screaming all the time... those "noodling around" days are absolutely critical. Sitting on the couch is encarceration.

[@freda9717]

"godforsaken rock without screaming all the time" Hahahaha!! made me really laugh!!

[@noahr.5026]

Mm. Ftut😅u😊ttdzp😊I tough photos tfyyg😅 and my giiff uu😊u😊😊. ‘N has

[@momodoufatty3315]

Can't stop laughing 🤣

[@ddayhoff10]

My god man, you're talking about.....enjoying a bike ride??

[@zgSH4DOW]

"For those of us..." You march into a video not intended for you, then complain you're not being catered to?

[@williamhilliard7386]

No such thing as junk miles, cardio & fresh air = enjoyment for many of us .🎃

[@hamburglerhelper326]

lol ok.

[@yammienoob]

I think it's valuable to know how to "git gud" on a bike But at the end of the day, any time spent outside riding a bike is better than sitting on a couch.

[@ritid69]

Not if you’ve done hill repeats…….. you’ll be happy for the sofa then 😂😂

[@JohnnyHMG]

Papa yam! 🍻

[@slowcyclist4324]

Can’t say I agree. Lose count of the number of times I’ve been dragged out for group rides, only to end up regretting it when I could have spent it slacking on the sofa preparing for the next interval session on the turbo. The effort to ride outside with nothing to show for it.

[@ozseppo]

Every minute of my job was accountable. Waking up, and thinking, kayak, bike, hike, swim? Made me free. Getting on the bike, with one bottle of water, and a candy bar, and riding 55 hilly miles out the door in Big Sur, absolutely crushes any training program. Sheer joy, and making it up as I go, has served me better than a plan.

[@Bench_mark_113]

buying my eMTB was the best thing for my recovery days. It has a power meter and I can stay right in that z2 during a hard climbs, and then have fun on the way down! Also you can cover a ton of ground on short 1hr recovery rides. So much better than just riding a flat piece of road for recovery!!

[@monetaryjack1705]

Someone else who has seen the light!!!

[@ViktorNilsson-v3e]

Trying an eMTB and it was like doing some drug, I could not keep my heart rate down because I could not stop and could get up every hill... But I'm considering an e-bike for commuting for improved recovery!

[@Robertlavigne1]

As someone in the sub 5 hours a week camp I always have to remember when watching these what Dr. Stephen Seiler said, "If you only have 4 hours a week then pretty much just hammer"

[@brunospasta]

Makes sense, your life schedule has a forced recovery built in ;)

[@daverts]

Ride a singlespeed and then you get an organic mix of low cadence power work, high cadence technique, efficiency awareness, and low maintenance. Plus if you keep up on a group ride then you're doing something beyond, and if you don't- it's understandable because you're on a singlespeed. Best combo for mental and physical well-being with limited ride time. And when you do ride a bike with gears on an occasional basis, you will feel strong and fast.

[@lpearson88gmail]

@@davertsbeen riding my 2x bike recently, but just got back from a ride on my single speed dirt jumper. It was amazing and simple. Great change of pace. My gf had gears but I had no problem keeping up. Flat bars were a nice change of pace as well.

[@lpearson88gmail]

We both kept it in zone 2 no problem through the city.

[@ForceMassMotion-b6v]

@@daverts if you can come and show me how to ride one where I live I will buy one brother

[@abbekraus0101]

This channel is the best cycling channel on KZbin. Always up to date with the latest research. I would say that almost everything you talk about is applicable to all endurance sport which is great. Keep it up man and thanks for all the great videos. Learnt so much from you.

[@SignorLuigi]

I think this may just be the best video you've made on training, ever. And that is saying alot! Great job and thanks! P.S. An unsolicited thought on recovery rides. I know a lot of folks, including myself, ride to be fit and faster, but also because riding our bikes is our "happy place." So whereas it might be better to just sit on the couch on watch reruns from a purely strategic training perspective, from a mental health perspective, getting on our bikes and just having a casual, recovery ride is a better strategy for bringing more joy and piece of mind to our day. Anyway, for what that's worth.

[@mrwezbo]

Exactly, with my recovery rides I like to ride 30mins to get a milkshake from a cafe, in the sun there's nothing better mentally.

[@SignorLuigi]

@@mrwezbo PERFECT!!!!!! 🙌🙌🙌

[@GravelRacer1]

Great video. Your example of the two riders clearly explains quality training vs just riding around.

[@XavierHipolito]

For me, the best part of this video was when you said "I don't know", showing that you're humble and you're not here to lie to people like usually some guys do! IT'S OK SAYING I DON'T KNOW... it's stupid thinking you have all the awnsers when you don't

[@reflexion420]

Well at 50 i have lost desire to race or proove anything. My best years are gone, I had a decent level and won what I had to. So I do plenty of junk miles with a smile on my face.

[@ForceMassMotion-b6v]

prove

[@ggrande8048]

I think junk miles are considered the miles that are not serving the function of that specific training. If you have a recovery day but you do treshold zones then those are junk miles, if you have a treshold intervals day but you ride it at zone 2 then it is also a junk mile. If you ride for fun but you don't enjoy it, there you go, another junk mile. So what is a junk mile? It depends... my 2 cents.

[@brunospasta]

I like that definition!

[@thomascoder9839]

good definition in my opinion

[@9kelly9]

spot on definition

[@vishwajitsharma5067]

Well said buddy❤

[@PaulJakma]

The point about the 2 riders with the "every ride a mix" v "structured over the week" approach to hard v mid v easy is very good.

[@xGshikamaru]

I do most of my commutes at low intensity, to the point I don't even need a heart rate monitor or a power meter. I can definitely assess these are useful and you know why I know this? COVID, lockdown. These aren't junk miles because if they were, why would I feel better doing them than not doing them? I'm ready to hear what Stephen Seiler has to say on that, a little something is better than nothing, otherwise you wouldn't see muscle atrophy so quick on a broken limb that get immobilized. Of course I know what rest can do on a tired mind too, so yeah there's nothing wrong with doing a nap for instance, and really sleep, it's probably more useful than resting on your sofa scrolling KZbin or TikTok 😉

[@thatguy9051]

Confessed "Half Asser" here.......thanks for the video Dylan.

[@rascaldere9327]

Dylan.... been following you for awhile... a wealth of information. Thank you. Have you ever considered doing a video where you help people lay out a training plan when they do mtb (always high intensity) but also road ride for aerobic fitness. A lot of us use a road bike to train but love to mtb and we are competitive on both. It just seems the training results in a large mix of zones and perhaps quite a bit of junk miles but maybe that is unavoidable. The goal for us duel discipline folks is just not to plateau when mtb requires such high intensity every time.

[@jusuflazami9580]

He has slready

[@rascaldere9327]

@@jusuflazami9580 man I thought I watched all of his stuff... but thanks I'll look for that one!

[@SamuelBlackMetalRider]

Mucho Junk Rides here but… they’re super cool and feel good MENTALLY

[@alavroff01]

Doomed moment

[@tofuguru941]

One man's junk is another man's gold. These people that claim "junk" miles must be real fun at parties. I like to mix enjoyment in life and not live like a German engineer with super strict regiments. 🤣

[@christianCarbstrong]

I've been doing polarized training for about 2. Months now. My ftp went up and my VO2 max went up. Bud I'm like 10+ years older than you and you taught me something that helped my performance. So. Thank you for that. ❤ Smart man !! I'll say this much. The second I removed torque training my knees thanked me and converted that to weight training in the gym. Night and day difference. My knees are happy now lol😂

[@TheCharnwoodCyclist]

Really enjoy your videos Dylan, I’m just coming to the end of an interesting year (year 6 of my cycling life) where I did less miles and zero structure and yet in some ways had the best and most enjoyable year simply by not worrying about training/junk miles etc. Not only did I PR many of my favourite segments but i did way better than I thought I would on a trip to the French alps, and managed to do a 37 min time up Sa Calobra in Majorca too. As the winter approaches and KZbin is alive with training advice I’m trying to work out how to approach the months ahead, you see this year came about after hitting my best numbers ever last winter but then suffering with a huge bout of depression after the “Booster jab” in December, this lasted for weeks and weeks. Training has its place for sure, but I think for some of us it can be a double edged sword, my head is telling me to spend the next few months doing lots of Z2, and see how I feel come early 2023, this is very opposite to what I see many of my friends doing on Strava where the indoors rides are already very high intensity threshold and vo2 max interval sets.

[@PeterSdrolias]

Everything depends on your goals. I agree, if you want to get faster and win, you MUST follow structured training. But, if you just want to stay healthy then just ride and chill.

[@Emiljon]

Regarding polarized vs. pyramidal, I suspect that polarized training often yields better results in studies because the test subjects still have room to develop their VO2max. Elite athletes have mostly peaked on VO2max, so their performance would benefit more from improving threshold, and thus they train more at tempo/threshold versus high intensity. Middle intensity and high intensity target different energy systems and are both necessary for performance. Look at the Norwegians (the "Norwegian Model") - their elite athletes train substantial amounts at threshold, often doing double threshold days followed by high volume low intensity days.

[@richardmiller3808]

What I heard, “what works best for you the individual is what you should use”. I’m my experience over training is worse than under training.

[@davidbunting6364]

wow - best explanation of effective training zone and potential for overtraining i have seen

[@mohongzhi]

This explained why my commute rides added lots of fatigue overall. Seems I need to do all my commutes at a really recovery pace and try not to be seduced by any riders passing by. Then do 2 interval training on Kickr ONLY at home every week.

[@emmamemma4162]

Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about how to use my commute! Going slow every time or switching it up and using some commutes for high intensity? The fact that there are always two rides per day when you commute, and my job is physically demanding adds to the confusion, lol.

[@mohongzhi]

@@emmamemma4162 I've already find commute fatigue level could be much higher than i do 3 interval training per week only, even as i do 30km commuting every business day in a pace under my sweating point. After this video, I am thinking I should either put my spare power meter on the commute bike and set an upper power alarm on my garmin, or build another single speed bike to commute. I am still enjoy all my commuting, but, it's not possible to ignore the downfacts of trash miles. Actually I don't have this problem in summer, cause we sweat anyway, so i took most of my 1 hour long commuting into a HIIT or something like a real workout. The problem is just so obvious in winter because I still do that much of commuting under sweating point, zone 1 or lower zone 2. I am experiencing that i be more fatigue in a really low intensity commuting than an interval training. I still enjoy all my bike commuting and try to put all my solo commuting by cycling even with rain. Just really don't want to get back to car commuting.

[@nigelstuke7870]

I commuted "as hard as possible" a hundred miles a week for years and plateaued. Structured training for a year with seasonal breaks and my FTP is up 35%

[@mohongzhi]

@@nigelstuke7870 I've been there, same. Just don't know even commute unsweated a lot also draws back myself.

[@willspower3]

Love the thumbnail featuring sweet spot training. Not-so-subtle digs.

[@jnstroik]

Great info, as always. For me, the takeaway here was to avoid riding in such a way as to trigger my ANS more than 2 or 3 times per week. Tough to do with you ride with friends, or go mountain biking. Trainerroad did add the ability to select masters plans that do two high intensity rides per week. So now I have one threshhold type ride, one vo2max ride, and 3 endurance rides on a medium volume plan. That seems like an improvement and probably the type of plan most of their users should opt for.

[@richardwolf6269]

Junk miles are the best! Get on my bike, listen to some tunes and I come back home refreshed and relaxed. Too many overachievers end up with health issues later in life.

[@CarnivoreDMD]

Most of my riding is OUTSIDE. There are hills, mountains and short flats in high humidity & high heat half the yr. 80% Zone 1-2 could only be done inside which is a no go for me for 3h week. No win situation.

[@peterm.7497]

That's an exemplary chart. I screen grabbed to provide it to my brother to aid in learning about the idea of the basics of training zones.

[@MaxPower2-e8j]

This video was super helpful. Thanks. Ive been a rider1 for 10 years. The 50-75% ftp was a real eye opener that i was going to hard. %ftp on the garmin helped

[@joshuaroe11]

Love the “B roll” footage from Cam’s recent BMC video

[@jameslefleur1970]

My take on this video is that junk miles occur when you are having fun.

[@jameslefleur1970]

That said going fast is fun, but there is a lot of discipline required to go fast and maintain that over the years. It is a hard balancing act

[@Darth_Firebolt]

Had an 8 mile ride on my 1985 Schwinn High Sierra to vote and buy tacos yesterday that was probably junk miles. Felt great.

[@johnwpotter]

TY so much. The role of the autonomic nervous system in training should be taken more seriously. I did a TrainerRoad plan for Seattle to Portland (206 miles in one day) and found myself burn out a week or two before the event. Too much intensity. Physically I was good (sort of), but mentally I was a failure.

[@JonFairhurst]

I’ve done STP, which is a wonderful event. I can’t imagine why Trainer Road would have you do intensity more than once a week to prepare for that event, even if you were looking to smash a time goal. Long Z2 rides are the way to train for STP, IMO. There’s only one, long hill and one tall bridge the whole way. The under appreciated training is regular hydration and fueling while pedaling and working on maintaining an aerodynamic position. (Stretching and weight training can help.) Also, drafting with your riding buddies. Finally, really tapering and carb loading as the ride approaches is good. So, did you do the event? How did it go? My experience was great, but Covid cancelled the next one and I haven’t done it since.

[@johnwpotter]

@@JonFairhurst I have done STP in one day at least a dozen times. It is my favorite event for many reasons. I am in my early 70's now and thought doing more intervals would be the right thing, or at least that is what TR and others say. However, the cognitive deficits associated with all the interval sessions seem to be underestimated in the several interval sessions in each week's plans. STP took me 15 hours in really good weather, but it was a struggle mentally, a real struggle. I know the course well, the weather was great, and I rode with good riders, but I was miserable mentally. I'll follow your thoughts about the event and hope for a better experience next year.

[@JonFairhurst]

@@johnwpotter TR is known for leaning into the painful side of training. My friend, who is a strong rider in his 30s, stuck with his TR plan diligently for three months and suffered total burnout. It was simply too much sweet spot and high intensity per week in the mix with a career and family life. I’m in my 60s, and find that Z2 is enjoyable and sustainable. If anything, I need to add weights, stretching, and balance exercises to “stay young”. I live in Ashland, OR with lots of climbs, so leg presses and squats would do me well. As I see it, Z2 tunes up the engine for efficient, sustained riding. HIIT adds a turbo for sprints, short climbs, and kickers. (This is good for catching a group in STP for a draft.) Squats are good for V8 torque to handle longer climbs at lower RPMs. Best wishes on your training and future STP events!

[@willdeakin8984]

What do you say for mountain bikers where it is hard to stay below a certain intensity? Doing endurance rides on the road is obviously an option, but do you think it is useful to have lots of hours on the mtb especially if we're training for longer events? I find that I spend a lot of time in tempo even on "easy" mtb days, wondering if I should cut back on these sorts of rides.

[@johnsasser8167]

get a road or gravel bike lol😅

[@monetaryjack1705]

Get an E-MTB....it's what pro MTB'ers are doing to keep in defined zones during training

[@Rcck.7282]

add clutch into your drivetrain. if you exceed your recovery power limit, the clutch will disengage and your leg will be spinning nothing

[@JonFairhurst]

Here’s a good reason for recovery rides: you can make a plan where you ride at least a little every single day. That can help build good habits and routines, as well as an identity, without overtraining and burnout. During my most consistent training season, I did this, and it helped keep my head in the game. If nothing else, it kept me attuned to the laundry! Let’s face it. If you take a day off, and forget to wash your kit when everything is smelly, it makes that next HIIT day harder to face.

[@XX-is7ps]

Couldn’t agree more with this approach. Just make riding your bike something you do every day without question, like making the bed or cleaning your teeth. If you have to explicitly decide whether a given day is a “ride day” or not, you’ve already lost

[@EastbayGolfer]

In Jonathan Vaughter's book, which is very good BTW, he says that when he was racing every race basically came down to 3 or 4 , 2-5 min really hard efforts. Miss those and you're done, The rest was basically endurance. So adding in those zone 4 efforts to train and activate those neuromuscular and cardiovascular responses is key IF you are racing or doing fast group rides and want to keep up.

[@barrowsworm1226]

I suspect this is no longer the case in the pro peloton though, as speeds are much higher now, and most races have very little time where the riders are at a relaxed pace. Velo News publishes power data for races, and we can see that the overall intensity, even for long stages is high now. Then consider things like gravel racing: Sofia Gomez Villafane spent the first 3 hours of Unbound at a HR the had to be very near Threshold, and then settled into a hard tempo pace after that. These are relatively intense efforts, held for long periods of time. In Vaughters' day, you saw riders in TDF stages, kicking back and eating sandwiches, going easy, waiting for the hard efforts to come later, now riders are almost always going at least moderately hard.

[@jameslefleur1970]

@@barrowsworm1226 But are we trying to become pro racers or be faster with sustainable workouts and still have some fun?

[@barrowsworm1226]

@@jameslefleur1970 Everybody is different of course... You referenced what top pro racers did in a bygone era, now things are different. But every rider makes their own choices about what they want from the sport. For me, I like to cover the most ground (longer rides 3+ hours) with the most efficiency/speed possible, and do well (by my own references) at a few gravel races a season. These races require a consistent hard effort to do well at, and not a few hard efforts interspersed with easy riding, the entire race is going to be a pretty hard effort, like tempo to threshold, for the entire time, except perhaps for short recoveries during descents. As far as training goes, the polarized model works well for me, but I do mix in some hard tempo/sweet spot type rides as well, as these are close to a race sim, and needed to be prepared for longer efforts above Z2 (endurance). I do not race enough to get these medium/hard efforts in from just racing, so have to do some in training.

[@mikefinlayson9907]

Hmmm You have I am sure heard of Prof./Dr. Inigo San Millan. He is a teacher and researcher at Colorado State University-I think. H is coach to Pogacar for example. He says zone 2 training should be most of what we do, whether racer or recreational. Please look at his material and let us know how what you say here relates to what he says. I think Peter Attia has about six hours of interviews with him, all available on KZbin.

[@Gianniz27]

Thats about the same, because here is talked about a 3 zone modell, so this zone 1 is zone2 in a 5 zone modell.

[@seanberce7412]

My recovery zone is so low can't do a true recovery ride outside without tipping over lol

[@erlendsteren9466]

Thanks for good video. I was rider one, going at whatever speed that was fun, and I am partially converting to rider two that tries to stay below zone 2 limit 147 pulse at least two days a week. But staying in zone two is outside my climbing gear range. Monday I hit a 7% 1 km climb after an hour, and on the low gear going slow the pulse climbed above 150. Same kind of thing happened on tuesday. I guess I need to plan at least one slow ride a week avoiding climbs.

[@the_derpler]

I'm an out of shape 43 year old who is getting back into it, so I kinda think derping around at zone 2 for a few hours is not so bad.

[@gasgano8255]

This video ripped my current training apart lol. Too many days where I go beyond 75%, probably 5 out of 7

[@carlnyman4903]

6:03 caught me off guard, best backwards hat contribution yet

[@joemoya9743]

Nicely done.

[@Panfleto89]

Hey Dylan - Thanks for all your videos, I have been watching your videos for a couple of years now, but just now subscribed. Sorry about that. Anyway, I do have a comment, regarding the easy days. I feel that for a lot of us "normal" people, not racers, the easy ride is important from the seat time stand point. No so much physiologically, but rather getting your butt used to being seated. Thanks again!

[@9090Glenn]

my current Y2022 riding season - 1,463.033 [ KM ] 96,623 [ M ] = training intensity 71.053 [ M:KM ]

[@jaigeyer9596]

I also like recovery days to be totally off the bike, get away from it, rest your backside, a day not putting on cycling gear, etc etc (just have a slightly longer warm up when you next ride). It gets me much more itchy to get back on the bike and therefore constitutes a better overall (mental) recovery...the gaps give you a chance to miss it. You don't have to be on your bike to do a recovery coffee ride (just go for a coffee).

[@neumeisteranimalhospital2627]

At 66yo, all I can manage anymore are junk rides. My good rides ended years ago.

[@EastbayGolfer]

Don't underestimate yourself. I'm 68 and still enjoy racing on the road. However, when I look at my HR data after a race or spirited group ride there is a lot of "junk" in there as I can't just go from zone 2 to zone 4 without spending time in zone 3. I guess Ryan is referring to pure training strategies.

[@gearmtb4489]

commuting to and from training area is my definition!

[@nicholassekas3060]

I feel like experience and fitness level make a big difference too. If you've been in the sport for only a year or two, I feel like you couldn't have junk miles - form at different outputs and bike handling are important too, it's not all about the power meter

[@hurleyvideos1]

Is there such a thing as junk duration? Is 30 minutes on Monday and 30 minutes on Tuesday the same or worse than 1 hour on Tuesday and skipping Monday entirely?

[@waisinglee1509]

I feel recovery rides, that is, short easier rides are only useful after two or three days of really hard riding. I find that it helps to keep the body loose/relaxed.

[@markouellette788]

Amazing video! Very clear and research to back it!

[@johnobrien6319]

I've been shifting my training plan to polarized Based on your channel) but confused on a couple points. I think you answered the main one in this video. I've spent many weeks trying to keep my normalized power just under (what I think is my) LT1, other than my 2 HIIT days. Problem is, to average that wattage, I'm regularly spiking up to 50 watts above target Watts, due to equal or greater drops in power from descents, intersections, etc. Also, it's pretty challenging to do for hours. After watching the clip above, I made a point of virtually (can't be avoided occasionally) NEVER going above LT1. NP was 25-30 W below LT1. Because it was the BIG ride of the week, 5 hrs/90 miles, I focused on LT1 target for a couple hours, went a bit easier fo an hour than a couple more at attempting just below LT1 but averaging far fewer W. Based on your discussion of the impact on ANS/HRV am I doing it right now? Love your YT channel, give my best to that bonehead, GHD!

[@EveryThingInOneMusic]

Recovery rides seem to be good when I have nothing else to do. However, if I'm on a recovery week and I have yard work to do, I'll do yard work and forget the recovery ride. Not sure if this is off or not, but if I have household chores to finish during the recovery day, I'll still be active whether that time is spent cutting grass or doing mind-numbing spinning on the trainer.

[@stkbkr1]

I concur, with experience. Rock on!!!

[@madrx2]

For me riding unstructured for the last three years has gotten my ftp to 405w? I also love having an easy Z2 Ride then MASHING some Koms with the energy in the legs.

[@RLucas82]

Thanks Dylan! Great videos again and again 👌

[@kimgaugemusic]

Great info, thanks for posting!

[@iambethyqueen]

We love you Dylan! Awesome video as usual!!!! The factor bikes are so cool!!!

[@timverkoyen8742]

Thanks for this great video!!!

[@colton_i]

So if I go out and ride over 50% of my ride in zone 2 HR, and then the majority of the rest of that time is spent in zone 1, with a little bit in zone 3-4, would that be considered junk miles? I’m not fatigued aftweards

[@lawlerskeetz]

Something I stuggle with is fitting commuting into a training schedule. I find it nearly impossible to stay in the easy zone up some of the climbs I have on my commute, purely because of how steep they are.

[@TheCharnwoodCyclist]

To stay in easier zones whilst climbing you either need to lower cadence which reduces power, or you need easier gearing.

[@martinjarc1994]

Works if you are normal dimensions even a gentle slope needs a lot more power from me. Being 95kg tall dude. But that is using heart rate not power meter for me.

[@lildavo87]

MTB with a big 50T on the back would solve that

[@martinjarc1994]

@@lildavo87 it would sadly i am runing a road bike with 34-32 cassete. Really hard to stay in zone 2 while climbing.

[@robertlight2370]

Don’t worry about it too much. If you can do most of your commutes at an easy pace, you’re doing the right thing. Try to go as easy as possible up the hills. A little bit of time at a medium intensity won’t hurt you overall. As long as you don’t smash it up the hills you’ll be ok.

[@thejonathansewell]

“The mark of a beginner is to go too hard on easy days and too easy on hard days…and most days are easy” not my words but a notable quote - maybe Greg Herbold?

[@future62]

I only have like 4-5 hours a week to train, most roads here are rolling hills and I hate riding indoors. So training wise most of my miles are junk. But psychologically they're great. Plus I'm still getting fitter over time. I will see if my brain can handle something like a 2 hour Z2 indoor ride soon but I'm absolutely dreading it. So the intentions and psychological aspects matter too

[@theegg-viator4707]

Excellent content dude!

[@johnsasser8167]

I usually feel better overall when i skip the recovery-ride and spend the hour stretching and working on hip/ lowback mobility instead... almost like the more flexable i am, the more aero i bocome and less percieved exertion during that next interval. Being said, sometimes i just need to spin around and get a coffee.

[@lidarman2]

@7:50...Funny that I recognize the background as Niwot Road and 45th in North Boulder.

[@meatmotorendurance]

It's funny that long, slow riding is probably the LEAST junky of miles. Mitochondria development thrives at low intensity. Couzens definitely advocates for threshold training more than tons of Vo2max as it just dumps lactate. In a three-zone system like Seiler's (Z1 transition band around LT 1 and Z2 transition band around LT2) Couzens would advocate for more of the upper part of the polarized to be high Z2 rather than Z3. For aging athletes, VO2max work might not be as effective because of limited stroke volume. "I *don't* believe the majority of the fast work needs to be heavily lactic." Z2 is KING for any pro cyclist or anyone wanting to be race or simply to be fit. Yes, mitochondrial health is MORE important than VO2max for longevity.

[@razorree]

someone forgot that bike should be fun :)

[@marcuswhiterocks]

Thanks for this. This video closes some holes from the other science-based videos of yours. I was wondering if there was a difference between polarizing per workout and polarizing per week. I thought you might circle back around to this topic. I got an answer without having to ask!

[@meatmotorendurance]

Polarization by Seiler is measured by Session (not duration). For example for every 10 sessons, 8 are endurance based and 2 are hard interval Vo2max based. He's reiterated it's definitely NOT time spent in zones. Polarizing per workout isn't polarizing in the truest sense.

[@cartersheley1567]

Hey Dylan, as someone who doesn't have a power meter, does a solid mix of Nordic skiing, running and cycling can you make a video talking about how heart rate zones compare to % of FTP?

[@whip113]

Look for stuff with Inigo San-Millan and Stephen Seiler. They both talk extensively about z2 work. With the amount of focus those two guys are putting into this area of training, it makes me think this is where the meat and potatoes reside. Your intensity work is just the gravy.

[@semiephemeral9]

There was some good discussion on a recent episode of Fast Talk Labs podcast about the utility of Zone 1. Episode 334. The idea that there is absolutely nothing to be gained and that there is some hard breakpoint between 1/2 doesn't make physiological sense to me.

[@alwinsauer6857]

This Video was very helpful.

[@Heliosmaster]

Great video as always Dylan! Based on recent interactions with the like of Alan Couzens, Stephen Seiler etc. i'm not 100% sure that Z1 is completely a waste of time. But I don't know enough to be sure. We will know more eventually about it!

[@strider7008]

His z1 was on a three zone model.

[@Heliosmaster]

@@strider7008 I was talking about a comparable zone model of course. But now that you mention it, his z1 is z1+z2 and neither are considered useless

[@PedaleurPat]

Amazing video (as always)! However, I have a follow-up question, namely, in my case Z2 (FTP in watts) and Z2 (heart rate-based) do not match at all - no matter which HR model you take (HRmax, TH-HR, HR-reserve). Seiler also often talks about HR-based zones.... So should I go by HR or by power?

[@littlelawson06]

The research shows that pretty much no one can actually perform their FTP for an hour (30-50mins for most people depending on training age) so if your zone 2 in terms of watts puts you above Z2 heart rate I’d personally go off heart rate as you are less likely to be creeping into that moderate training that it seems that we want to avoid…

[@ggrande8048]

Go do a proper lab test, that will give you the base to work with. Then as you get stronger your power zones will have to be aligned periodically. For example in my case the initial power zone 2 was overlapping my initial HR zone 2. (Based on lab test) Now if I would have not keep adjusting it, then power zone 2 would correspond to below recovery ride HR at the moment. So hence the need for adjustment. There is no proper way to set your accurate zones without a proper lab test. Anything else is just assumptions based on statistics. And statistics works differently based on your general training level. Even Seiler talks about having a lab test is the best way to set your zones. The key is your lactate threshold, and without a lab test nobody can exactly tell you this.

[@stevek8829]

@@littlelawson06 we can all do our FTP for an hour, FTP exists by explicit definition. The problem is, we all lie. That 200 watts only lasts ten minutes? Guess what, we should have said 100! I'm not targeting you, I mean all of us.

[@littlelawson06]

@@stevek8829 haha I guess everyone is too lazy to do an hour and their ego’s prefer the number they get from a 20 min test! Maybe we should all have a real FTP and an FTP we claim at the pub!

[@tbone-ip5fi]

What is stated above regarding lactate is correct; however, if a lab test is not an option and the choice is between HR and power, then choose HR in the case you're describing. This is an internal load measure, ie it speaks to the stress actually taking place in your body, whereas power is an external load measure and can be poorly matched or decoupled against the internal load. Many people, including some "famous" cycling KZbin influencers (not Dylan Johnson) will tell you to religiously follow power, but they are wrong.

[@billszymanski4844]

Great video, as always. Trying to get the key points clearer in my head. Seems a few are: 1) Have a periodized plan that has some scientific cred and use it, e.g. ride with a purpose. 2) Generally, don’t just go ride and noodle around in the middle zones especially if that’s not your plan. 3) 80% easy. The easy is where I need clarification - i think. There’s long easy (LSD, base building, etc.) and short easy (recovery.). Is that right?

[@the318pop]

Nobody else has stepped in here so I may as well. Dylan covered the science, or lack of, regarding recovery rides at the end of this video. So what of the other 'easy'? LSD (Z1 in a 6 zone model) has its place but is somewhat pointless if you're on relatively low hours per week. Z2 in the 6 zone system is 'easy' in this context for most people. 60-90 minutes just below VT1 is a useful ride in the easy category, dialling back the intensity a little if you plan on a ride being longer. The key here is not to use normalised power alone as the indicator of intensity. The goal is to keep power across the whole session as consistent as practically possible.

[@SR77SR]

One note on the too easy intensity. We have to keep in mind that training is not just a question of intensity, but intensity over time. Holding 55% of ftp for an hour is easy and probably not a good training stimulus, but holding it for 6 hours is probably not easy and will induce some adaptations. Similar reasoning holds for zone 2.

[@denvergriffin5555]

Spot on. Stephen Seiler makes exactly that point in several of his videos. Ultimately, over time, other than recovery rides, which have their own place, it all has to be progressive - either "intensifying" or "extensifying," or else there is nothing going on that will signal the body to adapt.

[@grantmurray5640]

how would you add MTB trail rides into a generally road-orientated programme? My MTB rides always seem to be roughly mid-zone (or mixed) in comparison to road/turbo sessions.

[@chrisridesbicycles]

Exactly the same problem for me. In MTBing you often face steep ramps or surfaces that slow you down you just can‘t get through in Z2 without getting too slow to stay upright.

[@h20s8804]

Can't stop looking at the seat slammed all the way forward on a zero offset post.... but totally. At 52, recovery is the biggest issue for me... if I go even Tempo/Threshold more than 1x or 2x a week i never get to a place where I'm totally recovered and progressing. More like Junk weeks in that example. Go low/moderate intensity most rides, and very hard for one weekend ride and things go much better.

[@nickwoods5150]

Another great video Dylan! Always well balanced and well researched. I would be interested to get your thoughts on weightlifting on your low intensity days and how this affects this equation?

[@themindgarage8938]

Great video as always. I'd be curious to learn more about this "binary threshold" at LT1 - how much intensity above LT1 does it take to trigger this? I would assume it doesn't happen instantly but does a single trip above LT1 heart-rate (ie going over 75% FTP for however long it takes for that to happen) do it? A lot of runners do "strides" on easy days which I would describe as 10-20s efforts around your 2-5 minute power - the rest period is pretty long for these as they're not meant to be hard but I could believe your HR briefly goes over LT1 at the end of an effort.

[@EK-mx7zb]

On a different tangent, I always think of commuting or around-town miles as “junk miles”…time on the bike that’s good for the planet but ironically throws a wrench in a quality training/recovery schedule.

[@joelrunyan1608]

I think the key might be. Do medium intensity stuff immediately after an hour or 2 of zone 2.

[@HoshinoMirai]

If junk mile keeps you motivated and refreshed to continue your trainings and not burning out, I say they are in fact much more effective than to burn out and stop training altogether. It's simple as that.

[@Bench_mark_113]

Curious you opinion of all the guys that don't take an offseason and just push the same Trainer road plans all year long. --It just snowed for the first time where I am, and now I am taking a week off, but everyone on strava just moved indoors and are still hammering! Am I doing it right, or am I wrong? I mean the first race of the season is still 4 months away, and I don't want to be burnt out before the season even starts.

[@Bultish]

So if possible, strength training should be on high intensity days, as long as you can perform? And thanks btw, your no nonsense approach to ftp intervals bumped my ftp from a forever 360 to 375 to a 400 🤘🤘

[@hemi265mustard]

Fantastic Video

[@andrewcaithness9937]

Very very good watch 👍

[@kmiller959]

During an outdoor active recovery ride, what happens if your heart rate goes above zone 2? Is that recovery ride now "garbage"? I have a route I try to do for my recovery rides and I try to stay in zone 2 from a power perspective but there are 2 climbs where my heart rate jumps into zone 3 a bit. It equates to 4% of my ride time in zone 3 (heart rate). I am curious if I need to take this more seriously and make sure HR does not go Z3...

[@luukrutten1295]

Instead of a recovery ride. Just go for a walk. Sit on a bench in the park, grab a coffee. Stretch. Job done.

[@erlendsteren9466]

I like that plan. But recovery ride can also be cruising on the bike, getting to that bench, grab a coffee...Cruising around in casual clothing not needing a shower afterwards. I guess the thing about slightly moving in stead of sofa when recovering is good for lubricating the knees.

[@stuartdryer1352]

Very useful video.

[@nuggunu]

good video as always =) I missed one point "junk rides" are crucial to have fun on the bike :D a weekly groupride where you noodle around and have some sprints etc is kinda bad training, but they are fun and for most the reason to do their intervals :D do them every day and your performance will decrease. Racing as well :D if you take a look at the power data from road races (doesn't matter which category) the zones are messed up as fuck xD recovery rides, my experience: I have to commute to work every day only 6k flat on my shitty city bike :D and actully if my legs hurt after hard intervalls and the easy spin to work kinda helps me. maybe more mentaly but it does, just remember to take it as easy as possible

[@trepidati0n533]

I view a lot of recovery efforts (swim, BIKE, or run) habit building vs any thing else. Taking at 30 minutes a day for yourself to do something active valuable to general well being. So if that 30 minute Z1 ride makes you smile then it is a win. If that 30 minutes is doing some yoga and it makes you happy, then that is a win too. If you keep going to the well for everyone else it will eventually run dry.

[@generaphaelian8893]

Brilliant insight, and funny as hell 🤣

[@DaneKromer]

Your video is dead-on! My Garmin has been telling me my rides are “unproductive” for the last few weeks. I should have listened! Based on power data I know I’m hopelessly fatigued. Time for some serious end of year recovery!

[@JimKJeffries]

There have been many legendary fighters that tried to keep training fun, to facilitate volume.