Dynamics of Modern Paradigm Shifts with Jordan Hall

John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall engage in a profound discussion on the nature and impact of paradigm shifts in contemporary times, exploring how these shifts are not just led by theoretical changes but also by randomness and technical advancements. They delve into the role of anomalies, experimentation, and the concept of the "imaginal" in facilitating these shifts. Highlighting historical examples, such as Einstein and Heisenberg, they discuss how philosophical and cross-cultural explorations contribute to new ways of thinking. The conversation further explores the necessity of breaking existing structures and disciplines for new explorations, with the metaphor of individuals gathering diverse tools without initially understanding their collective purpose. This comprehensive dialogue underscores the complexity of paradigm shifts, intertwining technical, individual, collective, and socio-cultural dynamics.
Resources and References:
Jordan Hall
KZbin: / @jordangreenhall
Medium: / deep
X: jgreenhall?lang=en
John Vervaeke
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
Patreon: / johnvervaeke
Facebook: / vervaekejohn
X: / vervaeke_john
KZbin: / @johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation: vervaekefoundation.org/
John Vervaeke KZbin
Awakening from the Meaning Crisis: • Awakening from the Mea...
The Elusive I - Part 1 - The Cognitive Science Show: • The Elusive I - Part 1...
Books, Articles, and Publications
Hyperobjects: Philosophy and Ecology after the End of the World - Timothy Morton: www.amazon.com/Hyperobjects-P...
Gilles Deleuze - Postscript on the Societies of Control: home.lu.lv/~ruben/Deleuze%20-%...
Postscript on Societies of Control. Deleuze, G. (1995). In M. Joughin (Trans.), Negotiations (pp. 177-182). Columbia University Press. (Original work published 1990).: deleuze.cla.purdue.edu/resour...
Timestamped Highlights
[00:00:00] - Introduction to the concept of paradigm shifts and their influence by technical changes and new theories.
[00:03:04] - Perspective on paradigm shifts, emphasizing philosophical aspects influencing scientists like Einstein and Heisenberg.
[00:06:01] - Discussion on the process of paradigm shifts, comparing it to discovering and utilizing new tools like a screwdriver.
[00:09:12] - Exploration of the role of imagination in paradigm shifts, with references to historical figures like Galileo.
[00:12:01] - Analysis of the interplay between the possible, the adjacent possible, and the imaginal in the context of paradigm shifts.
[00:15:06] - Elaboration on the concept of 'recollecting' oneself during paradigm shifts.
[00:18:42] - Questioning how people recognize and adopt new paradigms, focusing on the role of anomalies.
[00:21:21] - Discussion of the impact of societal changes and cultural anomalies on individuals' experiences and perceptions.
[00:24:53] - Connection of Timothy Morton's concept of hyperobjects with Piaget's work on developmental change, relating it to paradigm shifts.
[00:30:12] - Discussion of the adjacent possible and its relation to paradigm shifts, using personal experiences as examples.
[00:33:12] - Delving into the idea of distributed cognition in relation to grasping complex concepts like hyperobjects.
[00:37:53] - Emphasis that in every paradigm shift, new problems are resolved, opportunities emerge, and new problems arise.
[00:42:44] - Analysis of the emergence of democracy from the Protestant Reformation, linking it to changes brought by the printing press.
[00:46:35] - Description of how digital identities and services could be modulated based on social credit scores in a future paradigm.
[00:51:50] - Prediction of the future potential of fully implemented social credit systems and their impact on everyday life.
[00:56:57] - Discussion on the potential of new technologies to cause paradigmatic shifts, similar to alphabetic literacy and the printing press, and how these shifts might engender new ways of thinking and being beyond their immediate, apparent effects.
[01:00:08] - Analysis of the potential outcomes and limitations of China's AI-controlled social credit system, exploring its evolutionary impact within the constraints of paradigm space.
[01:06:29] - Conclusion: Deliberation on the potential of rapid paradigm shifts to either disrupt human connection to timeless values or enhance understanding, emphasizing the need for discernment.

[@DevouringFamine]

Hi John I just wrote my first paper on Kant this is my first year university! I just want to thank you for being such a formidable opponent I've had to deeply contend with during lock down. You are in part why I even went to university! Thank you!

[@markcounseling]

It's a real privilege to be along for this ride, isn't it? Those of us with less time and lesser faculties really benefit from the scouts reporting back from the front.

[@mills8102]

My promiscuous exploration of relatively random stuff has been the most personally rewarding time of my life. Thanks I think you two have your finger on the pulse here. Thank you! 🙏

[@lucrativeleadershipconvers5149]

❤ spot on! From a kindred spirit

[@ChristopherNFoster]

SAME!

[@movewithseth]

Love this conversation. Love to hear vocabulary for things I’ve felt and struggled with but never tried to articulate before. Great example of why we all need to keep striving for Dialogos! Would love to see Jordan’s friend Indy Johar join you two!

[@colorfulbookmark]

I respect and honor the talk in Dr.Vervaeke and the guests who talk wisely. The things are ongoing intellectually and calm and peaceful, it is role model for people who have specific interest introduced from the talk.

[@UpCycleClub]

I was looking forward to this follow-up talk between the two of you! Great!

[@eqapo]

3:13 JH: Our economy gets gummed up by people who have a steep valley to cross from the crest of their old paradigm 4:56 JV: There is a cognitive faculty of generalization that follows the grammar between disciplines and paradigms 5:37 JH: Challenges JV's top-down w/ "middle-out" perspective -- which is actually just JH's first-person mode of imaginal speaking 7:00 JH: Geneological vision/mythos of "man at the premodern->modern cusp" -- individuals share their unique tools at a watering-hole and thus disciplines emerge At this point I had an insight: teacher, tutor, mentor; propositional, procedural, participatory

[@_ARCATEC_]

Thank you John and Jordan 💓 really appreciate your work. You covered a lot of ground here. 🌲🌲🌲 🏵️ 🌲🌲🌲

[@eqapo]

I like Jordan Hall's notion of the "adjacent possible." He takes the top down propositional "teacher/researcher" point of view of Piaget's "zone of proximal development" and gives it back to us.

[@Paulo-ut1li]

That idea was popularized by Steven Johnson, who applied that concept from Stuart Kauffman into culture

[@eqapo]

The frame with which I watch: JV intellectually parkouring through JH's mental urban jungle.

[@yogamac]

Thank You two for increasing the capacity of my adjacent possibilities ⚛️

[@leedufour]

Thanks Jordan and John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee.

[@mikegarrigan5182]

John, I hope you would include some people outside of the western philosophical tradition and have a conversation with Louis Komjathy, Ph.D. Daoist scholar and practitioner.

[@ChristopherNFoster]

I think this paradigm shift may include a vast expansion of human language and its capabilities..

[@goldjacket4918]

Hey John, what would the disclosure of UFOs existence, the reality of beings so far ahead of us we can’t conceive of, mean for us theologically and philosophically?

[@liminally-spacious]

Civilization encouraged left-hemisphere hyper-specialization, now we have geniuses in every professional field with toddler-tier conflict resolution skills (not you two) that fail to interoperate. We need to step up implementation and social initiative, and start designing tech according to a thoughtful, humanistic first principle. Systems theory works well at shedding jargon and streamlining terms. I understood Jordan's model to be very similar to ideomotor theory with an elaborate explanation of probability curves. Totalitarian and biometrically-informed AI indeed seems destabilizing.

[@eqapo]

25:18 JV: piaget's notion of systematicity in error, synthesized with concept of hyperobjects -- illustrates how the proliferation of pre-paradigmatic anomalies coalesce into a hyperobject that itself is the complementary side of a systematicity of error

[@_ARCATEC_]

1:11:03 Aristotelian Humility, Hegelian Spacetime and Eckhartian Embodiment.

[@telekatron]

im finding whats important too here, maybe something a bit more unintentional is that they are taking a good grasp of the culture in general, from some of the more meme style genx genz evolution also to where the internet and its entertainment may go.The authenticity to reflect on the culture, brings one into a more honest space to comment and effect it. So from a birds eye view the are keeping up and finding a proper place with some if these more abstract, but direct, pontifications and intellectual musing as some would see it. Thinking of the academic side of things here that may get glossed over by some thinking this is all too far out.

[@newparadigmfish]

There is a new way to see things. They are just not seeing it for what it is. They are both using a set of a' priori modes to communicate. The modes are used in all explorations no matter the field. The modes bring the fields together through a synthetic lens. Modes such as extension, expansion, categorisation, configuration, optimisation, precision, adding, navigation, identification, and unification just to add one more for now, all work together in conjunction to give the eye systemic traction with the order of things. Considered as a constellation set in their own right; a concatenation of modes brought together in a manner that allows us to see the inner eye, outlined, as a single unit for seeing life. In this light, one begins to see the eye itself has a body unto itself. I believe this is what we are in essence. We are the systemic; an eye rising in a conduit. Man is merely the conduit. The ego clouds the mind to what is, but when one disengages from it, one is left on the meta-branch as the all seeing systemic eye. One ring to rule them all. It allows for synthesis. It allows for symmetry. It allows for systemic sight. This is where the conversations needs to go because this is beyond man. Let's talk the the eye into shape.

[@missh1774]

1:11:40 leisurely wait? Isn't that like extricating the other side of "procrastination or finding an excuse" while in a walking meditation 🤔?

[@vagabondcaleb8915]

How does the idea of "meta-(game/x)" relate to hyperobjects?

[@SanturiaOrsetti-jo6xn]

Great discussion, still trying to absorb all that weas presented. I do have some thoughts about the shift and human adjustment. I wii take climate change as a focus, since it was brought up during the discussion. * The last few years teaching at the University of Maryland, I noticed a numbber of students while looking for meaning are just accepting meaning ,packaged, no questins asked. Climate change in its extreme doomday outlook is accepted readily. Their sort of a religious belief. Please keep in mind I am not on one side or the other on this issue, I am a do not bullshit me kind of guy. However, their blind acceptance feeds into self delusion and what you call tyranny of thought. *I also thought of the on going cancel culture happening in the west when the example of Chinese social revenue was brought up. Again, this leads to a tyranny of thought. Both of the above comments indicate more of a paradigm inposed system rather than a shift for change. I really enjoy your videos, especially on the meaning crisis. Sanuria orsetti.

[@tombrayca]

29:57 This reminds me of the Inventor’s Paradox: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventor%27s_paradox

[@royaebrahim2449]

❤

[@eqapo]

15:16 JH: einstein-shrodinger as inventio a new space of actuality 17:02 JV: identifies a reciprocal narrowing in JH's illustration of the grip of actualization -- wisdom is the faculty that allows us greater agential control of that grip

[@zachydan]

what are they talking about? i don’t understand what’s going on

[@williamjmccartan8879]

These are a set of conversations that are part of John's unreleased talks, as well during this time-line Jordan was investigating the nature of hyper-objects in other conversations he was having on youtube and has since made the term much more native to his current conversations. I remember some of the other talks that were going on at the time, John was doing the series on the Elusive Eye, with Gregg Henriques and Christopher Mastropietro. If that helps, peace

[@projectmalus]

Processed (and processing, and consuming and advertising and permitting) sugar (or grain) as a hyperobject is interesting if ontology leads epistemology for the individual and their body is their ontology that decides the third element as opening to Good. Which for the individual who also exists in a collective which also has these three same elements in a different space, with self needing to do the three leaps to connect the levels at these three points. But Plato didn't see production values double and triple in various drugs and foodstuffs, so perhaps a dodecahedron must be added now to maintain complexity and not have the dark triad which makes two pyramids and our triangle as scapegoat thru permissions because the ontology of the human body. It's not that a person consumes it, it's how much and then an effect over time that's hard to see, and the lack of a reference point usually, and the clever (not intelligent) using of this as manipulation embedded in the collective both human and world. Not on the universal level which I think Plato's Forms is about, so the planet added now, between universal and personal and moving sideways as a dodecahedron knowledge and affordance object. Watch where the energy goes and how exclusive it is. I'm re-watching John Stewart's three videos again, thanks.

[@eqapo]

21:55 JH: what its like to experience a paradigm shift? Take a good look at a true anomaly

[@mellonglass]

I’m always on the edge of considering conversation with you John, then for some reason, these privileged convoluted dialogues about dialogs, actually ‘remove the wonder’, the realm of ‘wonder’ is without mansplaining, or lecture. As usual, the call and answer is interesting, but I feel the edges have no meaning because conversation needs an edge to be meaningful. I always wonder also where is the ‘wife’ the ‘aunty’, the ‘mother’ and the ‘child’? Patriarchy seems habitually in love with itself? To come back to earth, I believe a person such as Nora Bateson to be of more value in the meaning crisis which is also perhaps a lecture crisis, instead of a gestalt freeness, opening. In disaster, will the pulpit still be erected, or does emergence from disaster, forget its words of wisdom and begin to act to help? I play this game in my mind where neither John nor Jordan will ever do the dishes.

[@eqapo]

20:30 lol this is such an accurate description of us millenials

[@alwilliams3628]

Add the history and teachings of Jesus into the paradigm, and you have quantum paradigm shift that includes things like physical miracles.

[@matheobuzzi6572]

[@projectmalus]

The Chinese giving control of a social credit system to AI might create a finger puzzle for the brass, where a reverse objectification of self happens which opens up affordance for the individual there. The more energy they put into it the more it thwarts them. I can see an AI going back to first elements and changing the political scene, of manipulation as an end result of control for reasons dimly understood. Like the profit motive making plants into widget producing factory workers. Flat widgets that are consumed as part of the complexity reduced gradient. A fork in the road leading to intelligence or cleverness over time for individual or collective and multiple effects making it hard to see what grain etc does, the masking of sensory, changing of type of gut bacteria, their effect on neurotransmitters, cytosol in the cells with more density of viscosity or something, effect of constipation on emotional world view. Of course if the AI doesn't have a GI tract then how can they relate? with their code-able bacteria active inference collective.

[@Tectenitarius]

"Be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves" "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer" "There will arise new "Christ's" in the end times who will proclaim a new form of salvation for man according to their new "wisdom" who will be the inheritance of Rome and Jerusalem and Athens excluding Alexandria to be the worldly 12 masters of wisdom, watch out for them, for they will construct grand narratives to address the troubles of these times and they will be anti-Christos in body, mind and spirit"

[@tuckerbugeater]

Imagine the world is like a giant game of musical chairs, and the music is about to stop. But instead of chairs, we're all clinging to outdated ideas and ways of thinking. Yikes! That's where John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall come in, like a couple of cosmic DJs cranking up the volume on a new playlist called "Paradigm Shift." They're saying the old music is getting tired and the chairs are collapsing. We need to bust a move into the unknown territory of the "adjacent possible," which basically means thinking outside the box. And while we're at it, let's ditch the solo routines and get down with the "distributed cognition." That's where we share our brains and knowledge like a giant cosmic dance party. So, ditch your outdated thinking caps and get ready to shake things up. The future is calling, and it's wearing a neon tutu.

[@projectmalus]

Anomaly as playing cards that encouraged objectification of self then property ownership on two levels, ontological and epistemological on personal and collective (human only mostly) like two wheels spinning at different rates that are now (for millenials) starting to match again, via energy use and sharing. The right to ownership vs the ability to transform where the latter puts ontology first and the former erects objects in the epistemology holding space where it can be used, which goes wrong as exclusive, simplified, yet powerful which objectifies non-object self by manipulating their surroundings.

[@Aquaticphilosophia]

lol why does he swear so much?