EARLY ABANDONMENT: The grief that has no name

Experiences of physical abandonment are depicted in stories old and new as ways of out-picturing traumas of early relational abandonment. Jung articulated the archetypal foundation of what later psychologists came to call attachment theory. In an infant’s primal state of identification with a mothering other, lack of caregiver availability and attunement constitutes psychic abandonment. This is depicted in fairy tales like Hansel and Gretel and the more recent film Pan’s Labyrinth. Both images of the inner world of the emotionally abandoned child: the archetypal world first comes forward to protect the abandoned child, only to become persecutory, like the witch in Hansel and Gretel. Abandonment may become internalized, manifesting as denial of one’s own feelings and needs. Getting in touch with one’s longing for a loving other and grieving early loss is often the road to redemption.
HERE'S THE DREAM WE ANALYZE:
"I'm in a house by the sea to see and somehow help a woman. I first meet her outside - a dark, handsome man is a few paces behind her, and I take him to be her lover. She appears to be in her 30s. Later we are inside with her family - her father has invited me there. Her husband (older, pudgier, and more domesticated than her lover, but seemingly intelligent and relatively attractive) and father are talking about a sailing trip. She, sitting off to the side, interjects that she's always wanted to do a long solo voyage. Clearly, this is a conversation that has happened before. Her father says it wouldn't be safe, and her husband agrees. Either she or I (I'm unsure) comment that they are more worried about her being dangerous than they are something happening to her. At this point, I/we are thinking of the lover whom the family is unaware of. The father calmly comments that there's a large wave rising in the sea. He's standing at a window watching it. I come to take a look - it's huge, more tidal wave than wave. It breaks on the house and starts to wash it away. I'm holding on and realize that I'm in an untenable situation. I go back in time slightly, and this time as the wave hits, I climb into a wooden box. After the water has receded, I get out and try to find the family. I find the father and husband but cannot see the woman. I'm unsure if that's because she was swept away or because now I am the woman."
REFERENCES:
Donald Kalsched. The Inner World of Trauma: Archetypal Defenses of the Personal Spirit. a.co/d/1drS4KM
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#jungian #dreamanalysis #analyticalpsychology #dreaminterpretation #jung

[@gwendolynmurphy9563]

My mother would walk around the house when my brother and I were growing up saying "I don't feel like a mother." Now in my elderhood I've taken on the task of healing and presently feel great sadness and loss as I experience longing and grieving for what wasn't present in my early childhood experiences. Hearing Lisa, Deb, and Joe say the Positive Mother Complex can be cultivated from within comforts and fuels me and to be honest is a counter-weight to despair. That I have survived this long is a testament to something Beyond ego-consciousness! Thank you for this discussion.

[@jill-of-all-trades]

YES!! It’s never too late to be our own best parent!! The greatest power we have within ourselves is the loving mother we always wanted!! Give this to yourself as often as the thought of loss or abandonment raises its needy head. You have what you need! Now give generously to yourself! I believe in you! But believing in yourself is better than anything I could offer you. 👍🏻🎉💞💃🏻🧚‍♂️🥰

[@SusanaXpeace2u]

yup. No effective mirroring. There was one perspective. My mother's. My father backs her up no matter what. I had no sense of myself. Such a low self-esteem and I made such bad decisions. I'm only piecing myself together as a content secure aware person now at 51.

[@Lemoncare]

I’m sorry, you suffered a mother wound. You can recover. You will figure out the losses, the trauma of your younger years, grieve them. Do something nice for yourself. It’s a jagged pill to swallow. I believe in you. You matter.

[@evawarren3258]

I was abadoned as an infant 1st father 6 moths then mother 14 months. I invented a mother out of magical movie and T.V. women like Bewithed and Jeanie and Anna from the King and I. Etc. Even bad move moms who were none the less strong female roll models like Scarlett O'Hara, Gypsy Rose Lee and Cat Woman, Ginger on Gilligans Island. Eartha Kitt of tv Batman.

[@jill-of-all-trades]

CONGRATULATIONS!! Some people never get there!! 👍🏻🎉🎉🎉 They are SO wounded they cover their wounds with unproductive and destructive coping before the wound has healed. They can reap some serious damage during their lives. I am SO happy to hear you are piecing yourself together!! SO SO HAPPY!!! 💞💞💞💃🏻💃🏻💃🏻🧚‍♂️🧚‍♂️🧚‍♂️👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻🎉🎉🎉

[@jill-of-all-trades]

@@evawarren3258What a great resource! My siblings and I were also abandoned but we were a little older when we were abandoned by the mother-I was 7, my sister was 2 with 2 brothers in the middle. I am so sorry you had to go through something so traumatic. We CAN heal. We will always have that wound but we can help by gathering helpful coping skills and resources. That is my prayer for you-that what you need will be there for you at the very moment you need them. I believe in you! You. Can. Do. This!!

[@terrieanndiehl58]

At 63 yrs now with 5 intense isolated figure it out on my own Feel that my life was stolen by a thief in the night as there was no help with cumulative C-ptsd blunt force trauma abandonment from pre teen thru early adult yrs. Then just lost in the attempt to live as i imagined it was to be & the lies if cultural programming on US T.V. Amazing mess ~ determibed to heal as much as possible b4 i keave this life. The isolation I did not invite as a chronic pain & illness from mistreatment by pharma & physical wrong wrong wrong medical specialty treatment missing the whole human core cause of all the symptoms

[@jmcconne2003]

I took care of a baby in the hospital. 1 yr old. -18 mo. Found in crib covered in roaches. Seemed the parents ignored neglected him. He would stay stiff as a board if you picked him up. We couldn’t tell if he could hear or see. He made no noise. He stared. It was heartbreaking

[@jamaica2010ism]

😢😢😢😢

[@IAMTatianaIAM]

😢

[@gwendolynmurphy9563]

Throughout my early childhood I dreamed I was being pursued by a witch. When I was around 12, I confronted her, slapped her. She turned into a blackbird which I captured and turned into a pie I baked in the oven, then served to my family for dinner. I never dreamed about being pursued by that witch again.

[@thisjungianlife]

wow

Beautiful! So powerful. So healed and healing!

[@evawarren3258]

The saddest part of my adult outcome is never allowing my own motherhood...fear I'd do it my baby. AND a life of choosing friends and lovers who didn't adore me as I did them. I ball like a baby at the movie AI.

[@jill-of-all-trades]

That you are aware/conscious of it is a good thing. The best mothers are those who are conscious. 🥰🥰🥰

[@red9729]

Being adopted has a huge huge impact on psyche. Severing the bond at the moment of birth with the biological mother has now been shown to be enormously damaging. The book the Primal Wound by Nancy Verrier is a seminal work on this topic.

[@shefo3916]

13:53 Thank you for pointing out “the heartlessness“ of continuing an experiment when it was clear that the baby monkeys were obviously being so affected by the deprivation (Harlow experiments). This exemplifies the callous disregard and hubris with which some humans interact with our fellow creatures and it has always saddened me to the core. The theory of ‘the ends justifying the means’ is a dangerously false premise

[@ChanD-jm4ec]

I was adopted from Vietnam in the early 1970's....I was 7 months old...I was adopted by a narcissistic mother....I GET IT ❤

[@Joanna-do9jh]

Thankyou.H&G is such a helpful key, identifying myself with Gretel, my brother is Hänsel, suffering of heavy depression and alcoholism because of our shared abandonment.I now got more clearance into some aspects and really appreciate your wonderful support with charming, kind voices - I often listen to in the middle of the night. Thanks.❤

[@czarina7786]

Seen that. Old beau was given up for adoption. Adopted at 3. Then given up again for behavior issues. Adopted at 7. Sad miserable person with a severe lack of trust. Major weight and illness issues. Tough story of life. Did not smile. Did not see them as a baby enough .

[@marleyxen]

I listened to this at such an appropriate time. The comments about "insufficient mirroring" or lack of resonance really stood out to me, and spoke to a social falling-out I recently had. No one had done anything wrong, but I had to split away from a couple friends of mine who are genuinely kind people, simply because they often seemed disengaged, spent, or preoccupied when I talked to them. I kept finding myself angry with them and asking myself "why? why am I mad? they didn't say anything mean!", and it turned out their behavior was bringing up something I had dealt with in my relationship with my parents, who were also very nice people trying their best and who love me very much but often just couldn't "click" with me. Great episode, thank you.

[@edgreen8140]

Your friends preoccupation with their needs , put your needs on the back burner. Maybe if you think of it as a form of behavioral projective identification you will get more insight.

[@jill-of-all-trades]

Maybe they simply didn’t have what you needed, that they couldn’t fill your cup with what would quench your thirst. Not everyone has the capacity to fill our needs-and in this podcast they’re addressing the cases where mothers/parents can’t even fulfill the important role of mother/parent/nurturer. Perhaps when you have found what you need but couldn’t satisfy through your friendship with them you can reach out to them. You can reevaluate your friendship with them again at that time and decide from a place of self-assurance whether or not you’d like to renew the friendship. Good work on becoming conscious and realizing it wasn’t them but something inside you that needs attention. Good luck on your journey to consciousness!!

[@rebeccamd7903]

I was abandoned by my parents, left alone in a hospital from the ages of 3 to 5 due to having a life threatening illness. Even as a kid, I understood my parents thought I was dying and afraid. When I came home, the emotional disconnect remained. I didn’t think I was the problem and understood my parents behavior, but I still allowed myself to explore the isolation till I was a young adult and still at 51 embrace the silence. However, I also reach out to others, whether animal or human to connect and share love, support, and appreciation for others. I’m a lucky person to be alive and able to understand the dynamics of my life.

[@janetcorbin2642]

Didn't mention your time in the hospital, attentions from staff, parental visits, surgeries....

[@alphom1]

I like what you say about embracing the silence and being able to understand the dynamics of your life...that helps me...thank you...I feel I have come to "embrace the silence" and to "understand"

[@lorrainegill2169]

I just discovered you recently, and I am so grateful! This podcast was particularly poignant and helpful. Abandonment has played a huge role in my life, and has shaped it drastically. I'm now post-menopausal, and I feel, walking through another intense growth period through my past painful experiences. I am so very touched by the compassion I hear in all of your voices while talking through this painful subject. Listening has help me immensely!!

[@RachelAnnDRKRaven]

I love listening to these discussions. My parents abandoned me two years ago. They disowned me as an adult for being gay and marrying my amazing wife. No acceptance and no welcome for me or my wife. Totally ignored as if neither of us exist to them. They only relate to us by trying to tell other family members to have nothing to do with us as well. I try to use the pain to create art instead of being upset. Listening to this really helped me understand what is going on inside my mind. Thank you. 😊

[@adampetersen4795]

it's amazing how the people who shaped their children's lives and identity, cast them away when the end result doesn't please them. Perhaps their rejection of you is more about them than you. They know they contributed significantly to the person you are today. This may be a bitter pill for them to swallow- or refuse to swallow. Were they caring when you were a child? Was there abuse? Neglect, absence? It's easier for some folk to create a scapegoat ( in this case you) rather than admit to themselves that they have hurt you in a profound way. After all, we are the end products of our parents. I wish you peace and healing.

[@marleyxen]

Lisa's take on Hansel und Gretel was like a swift punch to the face (in a good way!!)

[@jordan_777.]

Wow this is an amazing podcast I am so glad you guys put out this incredible content for everyone to soak up. Thank you so much

[@Lemoncare]

I was abandoned at age 7 my mom said, “ he saved me” who, and from what? Clearly 4 small kids, can’t attach to the floor whiled you get saved. Ruined us. 2kids died. One went to prison, I got away. Today, I’m being summoned to take care of her. What’s more is my dad is dead. If I don’t go there is no one alive to help.

[@jill-of-all-trades]

That’s OK. I, too, was abandoned when I was 7. My little sister was only 2 with 2 brothers in the middle. I’m now in my 60s and chose to detach from the mother with whom I haven’t had contact since the Boston Marathon bombing. I’m good with that and have been so much healthier for having made that decision. You don’t have to give in to guilt. ONLY go if it is good for you. Your primary obligation is to your self! No one else will take care of you so you MUST DO THIS FIRST AND FOREMOST. NEVER EVER EVER put yourself in a situation that will harm you or make you sick. That includes feeling obligated to be close enough to even your mother if it can make you sick. Believe in yourself. Take care of yourself! Really.

[@kirstinstrand6292]

What about a mother who does not Bond with her new baby? I would think there are many babies entering the world under such circumstances.

[@fleurboisvert8816]

( abandonment trauma, child abuse ) I experienced abandonment trauma of a relatively direct kind one of my parents would regularly threaten suicide and run away with me ( her eldest ) often with me running after them believing they were going to die and it was my fault. This started when I was a toddler but the first time I know I understood and was terrorified out my mind I was around 5. This has left it's scars, including full on BPD and a tendency to assume that people will die when I fail them

[@thisjungianlife]

Oh, how deeply awful. I am so sorry this happened to you. ~ Joseph

[@fleurboisvert8816]

@@thisjungianlife My mother had BPD made an unimaginable mess she later when as far as asking me to die with her over and over again. She says all this mess made her "feel loved"; she looked to her child for desperately needed reparenting. My family has been passing down BPD intergenerationally through abandonment trauma. I'm trying to commit doing something else, anything else.

[@Lemoncare]

Hello, I understand you. I was sure it was my fault for it all. My two older sisters died, I thought it was my fault.

[@jill-of-all-trades]

@@LemoncareHow horrible for you. I hope you have found what you need to heal.

[@IAMTatianaIAM]

Sending you lots of love and light ! 💚🌈🌱

[@mitchelebadoo]

My mother lost a baby before me. She had a horrifying spontaneous abortion of her stillborn baby close to full term. Two years later I was born two months premature and my mother refused to nurse me. She went back to work full-time after two weeks and left me with strangers for the first few years of my life. Those strangers neglected me as an infant. I was left alone in a dark room on the floor for hours nearly every day. By the time my mother decided to stay home when I was about 4, she was severely mentally ill and abused my brother and I when she wasn't ignoring us. When we would ask her for help she would say " do whatever you'd do if I were dead."

[@timmcdraw7568]

I listen to your podcast really all the time in my painting studio. Its been such a wonderful companion to me while I work in the night. Thank you for it. I just want to say, because the Spanish civil war has been a historical event that ive always been so interested in, Pan's Labyrinth was as much a ferry tale as it is a comment on the way Spain exists under the shadow of the Spanish civil war - remember that Franco didn't leave power into something like 1975. And it was a war in which friendly neighbors slaughtered each other in really some of the most brutal ways imaginable. So it wasn't really a movie about redemption, but the ways we steal the opportunity for redemption where its most needed, most worked for even.

[@jill-of-all-trades]

I’ll look for the movie! Good luck!

[@v.ra.]

Thank you for your healing.

[@robvan86]

Very enlightening episode... I agree the ending to Pan’s Labyrinth was not entirely satisfying just as A.I. felt rather cold beginning to end, both of which found resolution in the archetypal process of unfolding awareness.. I know I have little say in the way you do things but personally, and anyone else who has benefitted from this particular episode, might gain a lot by dovetailing into how this all ties into sexual frustration, trouble with intimacy and finding a “good enough” life partner, and even self-sabotage that happens when prospects do appear, either as a sense of being “set-up” with a partner through others or finding someone more spontaneously on your own.. It might sound redundant to you but perhaps there is a way to make the content feel more like a stand-alone episode, such as “Intimacy” or “Self Sabotage” especially with close relationships.. I know I’ve reached a point where embitterment and frustration really come to the surface as a result of abandonment (after listening to this) and a feeling of “oh now this total stranger is going to be there for me? No way! Who do they think they are!??” How that brings tears and resent and more isolation... Idk, I love hearing you guys talk about these things.. How to let these feelings melt away so that someone can enter your life and help shift the paradigm... How to spark up conversation and closeness to such a person so they understand you instead of becoming afraid that you’re a total basket case and they need to stay away.. Which is a real thing in our current culture, that anyone who shows any sign of need of attachment should be left alone to “figure it out” on there own, but there is nothing to “figure out” they just need touch and affirmation that they are lovable yet our culture says the exact opposite treatment is the “right” thing to do.. It’s sad and distorted to say the least.. Thank you so much, either way.. ☺️

[@gwendolynmurphy9563]

ugh! My mother frequently during my childhood would walk around saying "I don't feel like a mother."

[@thisjungianlife]

:(

[@tonyFotiart]

Another great episode 👍

[@Dana-bp1hk]

16:39

[@DJSFROMVENUSDJSFROMMARS]

❤ ABANDONMENT ISSUES? ANYONE? 11/11/2023

[@applesnicolle5144]

I’ve known at least 3 ppl, adults who’s mothers died in their childhood & all of them are on meds & have no capacity for relationship

[@Ken-iu2zp]

This is deeply insightful

[@Christina-cg4ig]

Thank you..💛

[@rstallings69]

Love you guys

[@angelcandelaria6728]

Omg ….. AI. Broke me. 😅 I was in 6th grade when I saw it. That movie traumatized me because it showed me what time looks like in a large scale. The part in the future when he’s alone and everyone is dead….😅

[@galewelden]

There is no mother in this dream. Her absence is a strong silent element.

[@Dischordian]

20:10 Hansel & Gretal

[@geralldus]

This discussion could be also extender to the trans issue particularly the issue of transvestism, which is actually a form of fetishism. It’s a way of creating an image of comfort (mother) and also an erotic image but both without actually getting involved in either. The cross dresser can retreat into the male persona at any time and leave the vulnerability, feeling and sensuality behind. The feelings the process evokes are real feelings but seen as a quality of the clothes rather than actually owned. It’s also a way of forming a fantasy relationship with, in this case, a woman without any of the uncertainties and anxiety that might involve. The situation can be further complicated by homosexual men who dress and present as women often in the hope of engaging with a man who will give them the agency to escape from their overwhelming mother complex. This is of course doomed to fail as the drivers and perceived solution are both are infantile and the problem is one of the psyche that actually excludes physical solution. Basically, it’s all very complicated and few people wish to actually understand it.

[@siyaindagulag.]

"Mother is the name for God , on the lips of all children". Brandon Lee... I think.

[@positvgal8]

Why are we not taking more responsibility collectively for unwell/ traumatised women & men producing children that they are not able to nurture?...our education system could do alot more to raise awareness among young girls/ boys about the prerequisit character traits necessary to be able to adequately mother...at least if kids are aware of their unreadyness for this huge job of mothering they have some chance of making better choices for themselves & any potential unborn child that they may have...contraception could be a tool to delay parenthood & allow the young adult toheal from their own traumatic childhoods... The cultures are unwilling to deal with the reality of trauma among the populations... There is collective denial of truthful needs...theres collective loss of compassion of heart...

[@NolaCaffey]

About the dream, the dreamer offered his recent self-neglect. In the absence of the mother, and the only female being disrespected by her menfolk (patriarchy), perhaps the dreamer needed nurturing, but distrusted his own anima. He may need to value his own inner mother in order to thrive.

[@andreasauke5724]

Another fantastic episode. Keep em coming! Topic suggestions: psycosis, schizofreny, drug use/abuse, Jordan Peterson, sex, fetishes 👍👍

[@groundzero6662]

Excellent, thank you.

[@robertafierro5592]

This is VERY GOOD info

[@cathysellers4236]

Parenting is hard. Life is hard. These parents were doing what they learned. They were short on esteem, family, support. Why do people become parents? It does not give you anything, especially stability...It becomes your life. The good, the bad, the fun, the hardship, the strain, the lack..forevermore. The joy? ..sure..

[@lexparsimoniae2107]

Great episode. Thank you.

[@lexparsimoniae2107]

@@MrAhuraMazda it sounds like you are screaming your own unresolved trauma, you little child. Seeing a Jungian analyst could help you heal.

[@lexparsimoniae2107]

@@MrAhuraMazda pointing out that you are a neurotic juvenile with clear signs of trauma is not an insult. It's a statement of fact. Also, I said see a Jungian analyst not Jordan Peterson. He's just a psychologist. But of course you're too dumb to know the difference.

[@adampetersen4795]

Excellent!

[@blissbrain]

Dream analysis: I thought the box was clearly a boat to help him stay afloat so he can find the others.

[@thedragonflygate4587]

I would say that the ending of Pan's Labyrinth brings in the principle of sacrifice as redemption rather than shoving the witch into the oven. Ofelia sacrifices herself to save her baby brother and by doing so claims victory over evil. In listening further I hear the archetype of the crucifixion 40:34 brought up.

[@evawarren3258]

The dream: if you are familiar with the fim Oh Brother Where Art Though the denoumeax (sp?) Is the release of an enourmous body of water upstrem and a wooden dresser and its drawers floating as very significant

[@jill-of-all-trades]

Oh yes

[@IronEarthDesigns]

Hi, I've been subscribed under my old email address for awhile. I noticed that your more recent videos don't use this this "logo" anymore. May I suggest that incorporate it into your new thumbnails? For me it's recognizable as the Coca Cola logo or the Campbell's soup design. Maybe simplify the mandala-like design. I just noticed there are 3 different colors...Or maybe instead of the 3 "panels", make it one mandala, same green and yellow, outlined in yellow. Small enough to be visible, yet allow the new images to be understood. Just my thought. I know you all will do what's best for the channel. Oh! Just remembered. I haven't listened to all of this yet, but have any of you ever "reviewed" the movie Now Voyager in terms of the mother archetype or the negative mother complex? Even if you decide not to, it's a wonderful movie. Bette Davis, Paul Henreid, Claude Rains, 11 Academy Award nominations, a score that won the Oscar, and gowns by Orry Kelly! So good. I just watched it again yesterday. Also the mental hospital in the movie was like summer camp for adults with tennis, canoeing, weaving....

[@brittanyferera5177]

Whats the best way to heal from losing your mom, my primary caretaker when I was only 4? I was then raised by my grandparents, my dad was around but not really available- workoholic and alcoholic. Grandma was very emotional/mentally abusive- screamed & yelled a lot.

[@margerybedford4184]

Nurture your light. Be kind and gentle to yourself. You will survive the grief and sadness. Over time, with self-awareness, we can cope and even be happy.

[@IAMTatianaIAM]

For me it is , to learn how to become mother to my own self and start parenting my inner child . Ancestral clearing with John Newton has been amazing. Inner child healing . Create and become the mother I always wanted . Self-love. 💚🌈🌱

[@vivianworden2706]

12:43 i hate hearing about animal experiments like these. There are plenty of people you can actually experiment on through counseling and treatment. It just goes to show that grant money is more important than results

[@gaylaaustin7468]

I agree. I won’t listen to the animal experiments

[@archtura7276]

Her just like a pans labyrinth ending is so disappointing. It was an absolutely beautiful ending and the lesson was about sacrifice. The fact is a child does die in the course of your life. And all honor to her and it was showing that she is honored glorified and cared for as your life continues or not. Her death was an honorable and glorious thing as was her life. I'm not sure you have gotten touch with your aggression. Maybe when you release some of that pressure, you'll be free to appreciate the absolute beauty of the ending of Pan's Labrinth.

[@octaviakuransky8569]

Geez this is triggering

[@pocahontas330]

❤❤❤

[@commontouch1787]

Extrême maternal abandonment

[@annaynely]

You ok if you have the lucky genes, neurotransmitters, proteins, neurobiology, adequate future experiences. There's no magic.😅

[@jill-of-all-trades]

A blessing and tragedy.

[@Liyah-encyclopedia333]

❤❤❤