Eating Meat is Racist? (Carol Adams at the Oxford Union Beyond Meat Debate)

My reaction to vegan activist Carol Adams' Oxford Union presentation in favor of moving beyond meat. I agree we should move beyond meat and go vegan, but I don't think we have to go full-woke to get there.
Carol's full talk
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[@AllenWalker15735]

"Your hamburger comes with a taste of Misogyny". This is getting ridiculous.

[@KsandrPann]

Damn, how do I get my veggie burger tasting like misandry?

[@Peopleofthesun386]

And fries I hope

[@DrBear-rk4qb]

I actually think Carol Adams' point that meat consumption and its climate impact disproportionately affects women in low-income countries was really compelling. Maybe it would have been more effective if she had just made that point without necessarily calling hamburgers misogynist.

[@evilspiritchild]

@@DrBear-rk4qb the argument couldn’t be more remote, they’re repressing themselves then from her standing.

[@byrontownsel7274]

​@@DrBear-rk4qb fake oppression

[@pipsch12]

"I don't think the intention of people eating hamburgers is to be misogynist." That just made me crack up. Thank you!

[@JuanLopez-vf3mo]

@@MdoubleHBxx You are not even vegan. You're just a troll Bro

[@ntlpz]

The speech was all over the place but her book "The sexual politics of meat" make actually very good points, it's not woke intersectionality, she analizes the sexualization tactics made in advertising to sell meat and the treatment of women as meat in propaganda directed at selling things to men between other things like mythology and how culturally speaking meat is associated with masculinity.

[@KP-us5pq]

I couldn’t help but laugh out loud by her first sentence 😂😂 She’s basically uses these terms to shame people into being vegan and it’s a bad method. We can talk about this with out these extra things that don’t make sense 🤦‍♀️

[@BE-bs8oe]

You never worked on an animalproducing plant, bacause one cannot name it an animalbreeding farm. Or in a slaughterhouse. Or on a processed food industrialplant. Be my guest. It is one of the forms of eternal masochistic ways of doing, totally unethical and not productive.

[@boblester8641]

The black bbq tradition is racist?

[@boblester8641]

Ingenious people who hunt animals are racist? I’m confused

[@SourceChan]

I don't think she is, I think she's just trying to be thought provoking, waking up NPCs that will never otherwise spend any time reflecting or considering a different perspective than their own unless they're shaken up a little bit. I'm not a general fan of wokeness, for example I absolutely hate pretty much everything Vaush, or Hasan or any other stereotypical woke dipshit says ever, but using woke words doesn't make you irrational, whether it's just a few or a lot of them, it's actually possible to use all of them appropriately, and as far as I can tell that's what she's doing. @me with a particular point of contention, esp. about anything she said you disagree with and I'll respond if interested.

[@JustCHICHI]

Hey! Nigerian over here. I am not convinced of your arguments in this video, particularly that Western notions of property rights is a "natural [historical] progression" for all societies, which is sort of your implication. While i have technically only lived in two countries, Canada and Nigeria, I can attest to a significant cultural and epistemological difference in views about property. Property rights laws in the west are inherently tied to capitalist notions of privatization, and factory farming is its literal demon offspring (I say this as still a meat eater...don't judge me, I'm trying to change). While Nigeria's population is more than double Canada's, factory farming is virtually non-existent, since property laws are - perhaps - not strictly imposed. You could say this is likely the result of systemic corruption (i.e. laws are easily broken due to a weak structure, etc), but I would argue that the traditional / communal values that very much undergirds the social fabric is likely why people are still connected to land and hence why you'd see many more people farming and owning livestock. What I'm trying to say is that there are examples of modern - predominantly omnivorous - nations where factory farming either do not exist or minimally do as a result of traditional modes of organizing that are inherently antithetical to capitalism. This is NOT because these societies haven't advanced. Afterall, they are engaging within a global neoliberal capitalist world. That is to say these societies do posses the tools and technology to factory farm but won't because it just won't sell. Admittedly, I am thinking about Africa, where the sun reigns supreme all year! So - like - of course Canadians can't farm. BUT also western systems have undeniably long divorced us from the land. Anyway, this post isn't researched or anything. I'm just sort of offering an alternative , albeit un-formed argument here. And admittedly I am yet to watch this video to the end (I WILL lol). Thanks for reading. **** Adding one last point: Essentially, If I’m understanding this commentary correctly, Swayze is making the case that capitalism is a natural historical progression. But that’s not necessarily true. It’s a Eurocentric belief that should be troubled. And the evidence shows us that although postcolonial societies are predominantly capitalist, people within these societies organize traditionally, often communally.

[@JustCHICHI]

ok. Done the video. I'm not exactly sure what the speaker is talking about, and I found myself cringing at times at the loaded and contrived argument. Just so we're clear, my above statement is obviously not in support of her position.

[@mm-dn6oe]

I think you are on to something and this is very well-put, much better than Carol Adams in the video. Thank you for sharing.

[@mm-dn6oe]

@@JustCHICHI I think it is in support of her position, just said way better than how she presents it.

[@moondog7694]

Why did you write "So - like - of course Canadians can't farm". Why did you write "- like-"? I also disagree that Canadians can't farm. There are many blueberry farms in British Columbia. There are lentil and wheat farms in the prairie provinces.

[@JustCHICHI]

@@moondog7694 don’t be too literal. Obviously there are farmers in Canada, but the chances of seeing cows crossing an intersection in the capital city or chickens flapping around driveways and roadways are fairly minimal. But you - like - seem to have missed the main point of my post so - like - yea…..

[@julieblair7472]

Dismissing Carol Adams out of hand is unfair. She might be out of place here, but her perspective is important and her book is a great read. It’s not nonsense. I have seen your defense of That Vegan Teacher who steps on all the same toes so this is a head scratcher for me. You address racism vis a vis speciesism but sexism is a bridge too far? I remember when I was first vegan, driving and seeing a billboard of a chicken wing platter held up against bare breasts that said “HOT CHICKS!” and I will never forget it. Her points about how meat consumption (literally female animals almost exclusively) is so tied into the expression of masculinity are eye opening. P.S. VEGANISM IS THE EPITOME OF “THE WOKE LEFT” in most people’s eyes so this bit about it turning people off was a big WHAT from me. I encourage anyone to at least indulge The Sexual Politics of Meat a little. I think you would agree with her more when she is not out of her element. You echo a lot of her sentiments exactly on this channel. I think her lefty academic approach just rubs you the wrong way.

[@jonahwhale9047]

Funnily enough, the first factory farmed chicken were raised by a woman, Cecile Long Steele in 1923.

[@annieschultz9717]

I'm familiar with Carol Adams's scholarship and other work in ecofeminism. The Sexual Politics of Meat was a big part of why I became vegan. Though, I do agree that this speech was not well executed. In general, I don't think academics make good activists because their strengths lie in long form written arguments. Adams is clearly trying and failing here to reiterate the very complex arguments she makes in her writing in a short speech. In her writing, she discusses the parallel cultural understandings of women and animals and how everyday language and artistic representations shape attitudes over time. The argument works much better in the book than the way she attempts to reiterate it here. Some people who I think do a better job at making this kind of argument are Maneesha Deckha and Greta Gaard. I'm listing some articles I think are good here. Deckha, M. (2012). Toward a Postcolonial, Posthumanist, Feminist Theory: Centralizing Race and Culture in Feminist Work on Nonhuman Animals. Hypatia, 27, 527-545. Gaard, G. (2013). “Toward a Postcolonial Milk Studies,” American Quarterly, 65 (3) 595- 618. It would be so cool if you did a video on one of these! I would love to know what you think.

[@elisenieuwe4649]

Finally a constructive reaction from someone who does like her. I'll check some things out,thanks.

[@SourceChan]

Kinda understand what you're saying, but I think it kinda works out imo, dumb people gonna be like WTF IS THIS OMG HAHAHAHA WORD SALAD LOOOL, LOOK AT HER CLOTHES HAHAHA, OLD GRUMPY SJW WOMAN LOOOO, but dumb people also wont listen to pretty much anything, I think it's better to expose them to a truth they don't understand currently, but may over time start to make sense if they're ever exposed to other people or ideas that simplify or only address one topic at a time not condensed into a 12 minute sort of academic speech that the average dumbdumb can't follow, than never expose them to anything new ever or only ever slowly fish them in with an appealing lure that they can follow but will never have a chance to consider the bigger picture.

[@StewartStewart]

@@elisenieuwe4649 Check out her interview with @Switch4Good It's a very different tone and set of arguments from this talk, and she explicitly says that you can't jump straight to telling feminists they should be vegan because of what happens to the female body of the cow, and vice versa, emphasizing instead how feminism/veganism interconnect and reinforce each other, not just how they compare.

[@bear211]

Yes women also do the mental gymnastics to justify their meat eating, but you can't deny that empathy for the animals is by many considered unmanly or that veganism isn't a cultural stereotype associated with women and gay men. There are actual studies on meat eating and perception of masculinity showing higher meat intake by men trying to establish their masculinity, even to themselves. It's an extra cultural baggage on top of everything else.

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

Isn't that "toxic masculinity?" I might be wrong, but I think that's the only buzzword Carol missed

[@koolaidjerk]

That has nothing to do with the argument for or against vegansim.

[@glory5110]

That's very interesting Bear, I guess it doesn't surprise me (the study about men eating more meat to establish masculinity)

[@Stoic2000]

FYI: She covered a lot of areas and there was time given for questions. Two other people spoke in support of the motion. They won the house over with their arguments and Oxford were intimately in support of their motion.

[@monk3110]

Because Oxford types don’t skew any direction no? We’re there any proper farmers there? Fisherman? Anyone NOT limp twisted who does proper demanding labor? ANYONE who actually *produces* anything?

[@SourceChan]

Awesome. Is there a clip of the Q&A? I don't think I was able to find it on my own.

[@emmanarotzky6565]

Uh, you know vegetable farmers do physical labor and produce something, right?

[@kimieatsu]

This was so odd! She had a few really good points, but it just kept getting weirder. I think the topic of speciesism would have been more productive for what she was trying to do at this event. Specifically talking about our attitudes and how different they are in regards to the animals in our home and the animals we eat.

[@JiraiyaSama86]

Gotta "love" people who pretty much just randomly accuse others of being racist, misogynist, sexist, and all those kinds of labels. And when you ask them why they use such labels or evidence, it's not surprising that the explanation isn't really a good or coherent one.

[@Celestina0]

Why randomly? She made her case quite clearly.

[@JiraiyaSama86]

@@Celestina0 I said, "pretty much randomly". That's what it mostly amounts to for me. As it just tends to come out of nowhere. I would not argue that she made her case quite clearly. If you think she did, then you can explain, and I'll see.

[@yahnservices1978]

@@Celestina0 It's 2022 dude, stop with the SJW / feminism nonsense already.

[@Celestina0]

@@JiraiyaSama86 ‘the assumption that the best protein comes from corpses is a racist belief in that it erases indigenous African, Asian, and mesoamerican food cultures.’ That’s not randomly accusing, that’s describing a specific thing that she thinks is racist.

[@elisenieuwe4649]

@@Celestina0 its random in calling it racist if she doesnt explain why this difference of view is racist. . Why is something racist purely based on that a culture does something? Heres the thing: that culture a believes A to be good and B to be bad and another culture B to be good and A to be bad makes NEITHER racist. They have different views on something. Thats not suddenly racist. Calling that racist is random to most people.

[@amillionmangatoread7870]

I love your videos! :-) But I have one question: considering misogyny you claim that it's about the intention. In general I'm under the impression that you argue in a consequentialist manner - in which case is it adequate to highlight intention, in which case to highlight the consequences? And what is the criteria to decide when to choose which?

[@princesseville6889]

You always look at both. When my house is burnt down by my own kid trying to bake me a birthday cake I would be a good portion less mad than when a neighbours kid lit it on fire because they hated me. Intention matters - but the consequences are still in focus every time.

[@monk3110]

If I am mean to woman because she kicked my kid that is not the same being mean to woman in the same way FOR being a woman. That’s the difference.

[@mm-dn6oe]

I dont think she's saying white men are the ones making us eat meat. She's making the case that our underlying cultural ideas are rooted in an ideology aligned with stuff like factory farming, ownership, etc.

[@monk3110]

people all over the world have livestock

[@mm-dn6oe]

@@monk3110 people in only part of the world consume factory-farmed livestock

[@susiegray5844]

I appreciate your argument here - I can see how Adam's argument here consists of a lot of language associated with virtue signalling and chronic 'wokeness'. However, it's important to consider that she's arguing based on decades of academic research, for which she has been highly celebrated. To get a better idea of what her position is, I'd highly recommend reading her book The Sexual Politics of Meat, which she wrote in 1990. Her arguments and theories have been devised within an academic culture, rather than the online 'woke' culture of the internet, which has unfortunately twisted and simplified the definition of a lot of the words she's using in the video

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

Hmm, this makes me a little curious. If this is the case, I think she should have catered to a bigger audience and rephrased and elaborated on her points.

[@julieblair7472]

Exactly!!! She is from an era of feminism that developed this language. It is sincere, measured, and grounded. People let their discomfort over a lot of impassioned young adults right now cloud the issues just because they are still learning, very vocal, and abrasive. UV agrees with Carol a lot more than she knows. I feel like she has hang ups about feminism and can’t see past it.

[@SourceChan]

Thank you for this comment. I'm not really familiar with her academic background, but completely agree that her argument was entirely rational, the only issue imo is optics, she's an old assertive woman, dresses weirdly, uses a ton of woke terminology, etc, so every idiot is gonna OMG THIS CRAZY SJW LOLOLOL, but that's just how it goes, if the video ever goes to mainstream channels there will generally be opportunities of explanations and reviews that breaks these things down for simpler audiences, promoting healthy debate and understanding.

[@StewartStewart]

@@cherrybearylemondrop FWIW, her interview with @Switch4Good is significantly more appropriate for a general audience, and she explicitly makes some of the same points that Swayze does in this video.

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

These review videos are quite entertaining. Carol is off to a rough start..

[@nova_supreme8390]

Thus reminds me the whole "veganism is racist" thing...

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

Yep, both sides call each other racist to try to convert people, but it just falls flat. What really matters is that sentient beings are suffering their whole lives and are murdered unnecessarily.

[@SourceChan]

@Unnatural vegan Didn't watch through your entire video, so just gonna address the "what does colonialism has to do with veganism" that I heard before I got bored and moved on: the link is the entitlement to take from others what's not yours, it's saying "because these beings don't have their own quote unquote civilized laws we can take whatever from them and do whatever we want to them". I generally appreciate your centrist views to some degree, but I think you're pretty off here, pretty much everything she said seemed reasonable to me (@me if you wanna argue about any single point), the only "issue" which isn't actually an issue is a lot of surface level things that makes her an easy target, but that's a poor reason not to defend someone; she's an old and assertive woman, easy to stereotype as an "old grumpy, bitter woman that nobody likes" even if it might not be accurate, she uses a lot of wokeist words (stereotype), she's dressed weirdly (stereotype), she's an assertive woman (SJW!!! omg!!! such outrage!!!), she has no problem being outspoken/speaking her mind on the topic and making an original or creative general argument that interlinks a lot of subject that makes NPCs zone out and assert "word salad!" because they couldn't follow. I'm a centrist, I'm a vegan and superstraight, except for making fun of the occasional very proud and very outspoken vegetarian that outright rejects veganism on no basis (literally "I'm not ready for it" is reasonable grounds for me) I literally don't spend any time criticizing non-vegans, only vegans as far as veganism is concerned. I think it's a mistake not to defend this woman unless you can come up with something stronger than "she's an easy target" and "I (or many others) don't understand what she's talking about". There's all reason to criticize her for any of the things I mentioned or others, making her a target or other things, but I don't find any grounds to call her unreasonable or not to defend her on that particular ground.

[@stuffandalsootherstuff]

Ugh, my posh Tory friend sent me this like it's supposed to prove veganism is dumb, I'm glad you're responding to it, so I don't have to watch the whole thing directly (I got a few minutes in before the cringe was too much)

[@Gaia_Seraphina]

This is a satire club, not a governmental debate.

[@SourceChan]

Let me know if you're ever up to rewatch it and find me a single example of her saying anything irrational or unreasonable and we can discuss it if you'd like, or you can just present it and walk off, either way I'd be happy with a single example.

[@trstenik100]

@@SourceChan "Your hamburger comes with a taste of misogyny"

[@SourceChan]

@@trstenik100 Did you hear the statement made in context? It was a concluding statement to a long spiel on the negative effects of animal agriculture on minorities and women. Do you contest her facts and figures? Do you have anything to contest her facts and figures with?

[@emmanarotzky6565]

I’m still at the beginning of the video but it makes perfect sense to me. All forms of hierarchy are connected and feed off each other, and so long as animals are considered a lower class, all one has to do to lower the status of a particular group of humans is to associate them with animals or place them somewhere on the hierarchy below themselves and above animals. That can’t happen if there’s no hierarchical thinking.

[@huangatang10]

Honestly, from my experience doing vegan outreach, whenever you ask people who believe in whacky things why they believe in those things (their evidence for it). They usually go on a long winded monologue that has too many tangents and changes the topic of discussion lol

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

That's how our brains work, though. We're not naturally rational thinkers; it takes work.

[@huangatang10]

@@cherrybearylemondrop yeah I guess the point I was trying to make is that in the context of doing outreach, you want to strike a balance of talking to as many people as you can but also nurture the good or productive conversations you happen to have. If you end up running through a bunch of someones tangential, evasive, rabbit holes, it feels like it's been a waste of time. But I guess in the context of a discussion being watched by an audience, asking for evidence is probably a good strategy to show the audience how little sense the other person is making.

[@DrBear-rk4qb]

I actually think Carol Adams' point about climate change and its disproportionate impact on women in low-income countries was really compelling. Maybe her talk would have been more effective if she had just made that point without calling hamburgers misogynist.

[@youtubeuserremainsanonymou9022]

It might have worked well if she described it as hidden cost of supporting corporate abuse of women and minorities.

[@behappybevegan]

How does climate change disproportionate impact women in low-income countries?

[@Cancellator5000]

@@behappybevegan I imagine it's because those countries are less equipped to deal with the effects of climate change and like in most countries women make less than men, so they are even less able to. So, when catastrophes happen they are the ones that will suffer the most.

[@Nayr747]

@@Cancellator5000 Women in poor countries make less because men are the ones working and providing for them.

[@Cancellator5000]

@@Nayr747 Not single women or single mothers or widows.

[@oeb39th]

i don't want to drag this out again but CJA is only asking the "audience" that when given the choice (tonight) choose the vegan option. and also i imagine every time a bell dings during her argument and angel gets it's wings....actually i imagine it'a a valid logical statement...if p then q...

[@101spacemonkey]

The sexual politics of meat is a great book. Have you read it? It is a really fascinating way of viewing things. Also an easily accessible read. I think it would help you approach Carol Adams better and her views because it seems like you haven't and it would give you a more wide ranging view for this

[@berniv7375]

The lady is a staunch defender of other animals but I believe that calling a book "The Sexual Politics Of Meat" is disrespectful and demeaning to other animals.🌱

[@adamjarvis1654]

Carol Adams is an idiot. There are two survival modalities. Reproduce your way to success or predate your way to success. Our ancestors would have remained bound to tiny brain, reactive mindsets if our species did not eat meat. I eat meat because it tastes great. I eat ruminant meat because it's among the most wholesome single foods on earth for humans. Other apex predators also tend to hunt ungulates and ruminants. Are lions also colonialist, misogynistic and responsible for climate change? All I can tell you dumb vegans is that you are going to be outbred by humans engaging in sexual intercourse with no worries about climate change while they simultaneously consume tomohawk steaks as they bang the next generation into existence. The soy will die a slow sad death and good riddance to all of them. The world will be a better place once humanity expunges idiots like you.

[@ntlpz]

@@berniv7375 It's a reference to Kate Millet's "Sexual Politics" one of the most important books if not the most important of second wave feminism

[@berniv7375]

@@ntlpz Feminists who are not vegan are shallow and cruel hypocrites.🌱

[@ntlpz]

@@berniv7375 what does it have to do with what I'm saying I'm just explaining why she named her book that way

[@marionleblanc8580]

Even if what she said about navite Americans being on the whole vegetarians was true, that strikes me as a very American centric arguement to make. Though there have been some cultural influences defending vegetarianism (Buddhism, for instance), on the whole, non-whites in the so-called "old world" have been meet eaters. Animal products have been a staple of East-Asian and Middle-Eastern diets way before European influence was a thing there, let alone full-blown colonialism. Reducing human history to colonial/industrial times versus an idealized native world kind of works for the Americas (and still, in the case of meat eating, a lot could be debated), but it completely fall appart when you look at Europe, Asia and Africa. I'm not saying this to downplay the horrors of European colonialism in the Americas, or anywhere else, which should be acknowledged, confronted, and, when still necessary, combatted. But systematically conflating whiteness, colonialism, and industrialisation erases a lot of nuance, and ultimately paints a pretty uniform and unflatering pictures of non-whites as perpetual victims, and incapable of accountability or growth, culturally or individually.

[@Telenova.]

I receive this position often, it appears as a 'take back' to buffer against the blame, so squarely, leveled by wokeness. It irks me, that when speaking of Indigenous people's attempt to preserve, and or to integrate their cultural identity, both sides of the coin is commandeered by the external, including their own grief and disempowerment. Time sets its tide and the treasures of the Sea are made visible, as is the debris of waste exposed. We must consider the tussle of disintegration, and not simply the full throttle or culmination of appropriation. I use the example of India, which, during English Reign the colonizers' were bothered by the foods selection, and the sacritity of Cows. Simply put, there was not Meat or *much* Dairy available. The Colonizer set out to 'modernize' by institutionalizing the greediness of supply chains to create demand (or to satisfy their own demand). Dairy production was the best avenue to seizure, since it had proven most difficult the convince an adherent Vegetarian culture to break from their values; It was easier to conceive of a less scarce, but equally revered use of Dairy. The problem becomes apparent in the production model and the ways it changes the treatment of, and creates a dependency on domesticated animals. Prior to this transition people may have had a family cow, which when naturally impregnated, they would celebrate in the fortune and enjoy Dairy. These practices did not include the horrors of industrialized farming.. Ahimsa was practiced, Calfs fed from their mothers, procreation was a natural happenstance, Milk was gathered by hand, quantity was limited. It is important to realize the stepping stone of homogenization as a force to starve out cultural identity and collective values in favor of empowering individual will. It's ironic to me when Vegan proselytization comes back to these same people and laments further, that they must slate their point of view, now weakened by the gain of production value, and blind sighted normalization of the cruelty in which that employs, to go Vegan. It's ironic, because it is an external force stemming from the same culture that disrupted their autonomy and sovereignty to glut its desire, birthing a generation of retractors, who are so implored to throw the ball in the opposite court. I suppose I feel as though allowing the space for communities of people to heal their plight through the wisdom of their own peace, and in honor of diversity is true progress, and that often true progress is a going back to these trampled values, lost or conceded, by the overwhelm of the homogenizing force.

[@mroctober3657]

Exactly. I'm pretty sure those Indian teepees weren't made out of kale.

[@marionleblanc8580]

@@Telenova. I agree homogenization of culture was forced by European colonizers, and that it is in an of itself a problem, both from a cultural and an ecological angle (not to forget, of course, the issue of animal rights). If I can be a little nitpicky, I'd argue they didn't do it for the sake of individual will so much as the sake of the British crown (or French, or Belgian, etc), but I agree this forced assimilation had catastrophic consequences, and I'm not trying to diminish it. I'm not very knowledgeable about the history of India, which seems to have long traditions of vegetarianism, reflected in Buddhism and Jainism, and that's why I didn't cite it as an example in my first post. Maybe I overgeneralized a little too much, and that's my bad. But I think my point still stands for many other parts of Asia, from Japan to the Islamic world, and that's why I disagree with the very cookie cutter - and yes, America centric - vision of history expressed by the woman Swayze was criticizing. The Chinese and Arabs, to pick only a few examples, have been formidable conquerors in their own rights, and that came with it's share of military, cultural, and economic domination too. Now, I'm really not trying to make a _tu quoque_ argument here. Just because other people have been colonizers, doesn't mean European imperialism was any less bad. Certainly, it happened on a scale never seen before, and its repercution are still bitterly felt all around the world. As westerners (just talking generally here, I'm not assuming anything about you), we should try our best to minimize the impact of this very bleak legacy. But still, European colonialism isn't the only terrible thing that has ever happened (try asking Algerian Kabyles about the Arabs, or the Vietnamese about the Chinese), and implying it is, even with the best intentions, just feeds into a very essentialistic vision of history. Now, coming back to animal consumption, I agree European colonialism had a very bad impact. Most colonized places didn't eat as much meat as what had become the Western diet at that point, even in cultures that had no qualms about eating animals. But I don't think it's a question of European vers non-European so much as it is one of industrialization versus non-industrialization. Maybe, outside of European influence, many parts of the world would have remain relatively small consumers of animal products for millenia (if they did eat meat at all), but there's no raison to believe many other places wouldn't have developped similarly ressource intensive systems as time went on, and the technological means became available. (For the longest part of history, eating meat regularly was very much a rich person thing anyway. During the middle ages for instance, European peasans mostly survived on beans and vegetables.) This is a very complicated argument anyway, and the philosophy of animal rights can quickly become offuscated by disputes about history, which can be painful. I'm sorry if my first intervention appeared flippant. I was trying to be concise, and mostly wanted to comment on what feels to my European eyes a very American habit (if, again, a well intentionned one): dividing history between "noble savages" and "greedy colonialists". For what it's worth, I don't consider myself anti-woke (though I don't think many people label themselves as "woke" anyway, this is much more of a rightwing canard at this point). I'm very much a leftist on a lot of subjects, but I think the progressive tendancy to paint non-European cultures with a single brush is ultimately misguided, as I already expressed, and the simple fact this can be just as easily used both as a vegan and anti-vegan argument, I believe, supports my opinion on the matter.

[@Telenova.]

​@@marionleblanc8580 Totally. I didn't respond to you because I thought you sounded flippant or arrogant, rather because your point was concise (and not without merit), and I'm often confronted with that perspective which reads in limitation. The mirrored glass of history is offers but a reflection, so its not the decidedly preeminent narrative on *now*, but is worth its weight in understanding, lest we careen into abyss, as opposed to maneuver with circumspection. I must clarify that I didn't mean to say that Colonization was the determination of individual will (perhaps for the Pirates, alas). I do believe that Colonial/Capitalism in its new wave promulgation is to augment individual will, which is to say, abate community and even familial cords, which serves to further its concept of homogenization; as Nietzsche says "Liberal institutions straightway cease being liberal the moment they are soundly established: Once this is attained no more grievous and more thorough enemies of freedom exist than liberal institutions." I appreciate your thoughtful response! :)

[@marionleblanc8580]

@@Telenova. You're welcome. And thanks to you too. It's always nice to have a respectful conversation.

[@thepkism]

You continue to just DIG IN. I love it. Thank you so much for these videos. So entertaining and educational

[@kimberlylynn1921]

You are the reason I eat less meat. I tried to go vegan some years ago and only lasted 3 weeks. I was shamed by the people around me when I failed, who by the way were meat eaters. I now have been doing very good knowing the less meat I eat had an impact on the animals. It’s easier for me not to eat meat in fact I haven’t eaten meat for about 3 weeks now. I still eat eggs and still have meat in my freezer. I won’t waste it for that is worse than eating it. Anyway thank you for your videos.

[@nikanh9946]

I think a lot of people on both sides just like to throw out words like white supremacy and colonialism. There are vegans who called meat eaters racist and there’s also non-vegans who say that vegans are white supremacists. And I definitely agree that it takes a lot of conditioning to undo when it comes to referring to animals as he share a day instead of referring to them like an in animate object.

[@catherinehoy5548]

Farm Subsidies - Each cow in Europe gets £2.20 a day - more than 1.2 billion people on earth live on less than that - this is an example of the white suprematist ideology that she is describing.

[@cryforthemoon]

That is a great point on rephrasing things in the meat industry to give people less guilt and distance themselves from the reality of the actual animals. Leg of lamb vs baby lamb leg. It is quite a bit like how toxic men only see women as body parts like breasts, p*ssy and butt.

[@okiedokie2234]

Just read her book. It’s actually good.

[@newhouseb7]

This kind of woke-ism is like a religion and in their minds we have all sinned and cannot free ourselves (Christian’s should recognize this statement).

[@mel.jackson]

I love meat, and don't ever plan on going full vegan. But even I can see Carol is to veganism as scientology is to science.

[@Anna192g]

I could hardly sit this through even though it's a commentary. Anytime she brought up something good she followed up with something unbearably cringy.

[@SourceChan]

Woke words cringe, I hear I close ears, white supremacy no have meaning, no nazis anywhere, stupid sound, go away.

[@emmaponymous]

Carol Adams should have a chat with the young lady that Earthling Ed interviewed. 🎇 Adrian Bliss has a short that reminds me of this attitude that animals sacrifice themselves for human consumption: ancient hunter stalking a mammoth; mammoth is fed up, trying to go for a jog, gets angry and tells human to just kill him. Cut scene, human awkwardly refusing to eat mammoth while everyone else in tribe feasts.

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

Thanks for this introduction. It was quite a funny sketch

[@LoboxBlanca]

11:29 I can't say they would have gotten to a stage of factory farming, many don't do it and it's more of a commercial thing. Getting as much money. When you are just feeding a smaller population, we see farming. There is good chance this might have started when we traded more openly with other states and nations. It became less about feeding a village and more about making money.

[@TriggerHappy923]

You don’t think the Patriarchy doesn’t even exists?

[@lethalviolet]

I am not vegan and usually find vegan commentaries scary, especially on social media. You however, are a different breed I have enjoyed watching several of your videos and your views. Thank you! 😊

[@strawberrypie7933]

I'm a libertarian, not vegan, but looking into it. If that speech was the first video I saw about veganism, I'm pretty sure I would have just moved on. Instead I found your amazing channel. Thank you for all of your insight on a variety of topics and being a part of my journey. You're such a lovely person. ❤

[@darkpatches]

-Peterson is a "fan" of the diet ending her long-tern, horrific suffering? Yes, she's probably a fan. -Peterson is dogmatic about what others eat, as vegans are? I don't know about that, Odessa. -People don't want to become vegans because they don't want to give up animal products? Well, as someone who went through LFPB for a decade back when it wasn't hip and unnatural, I think people would rather not give up highly processed foods over giving up animal products (not that it's not a close second). A healthy, whole-ish food plant-based diet can be tasty sometimes, but many a time I was talking myself into liking something that was barely edible (exhibit A: anything tofu; exception being tiny amount in very spicy Korean soups). Most people could go junk food vegan for quite awhile, but whole-ish food, low-fat vegan long-term? They'll quit way before any health problems pop up. -"People know on some level that killing animals is wrong." That's the sin argument. People reject God's laws because they want to sin, but on SOME LEVEL they know it's wrong. That's the vegan hope, that what you believe is really what everyone believes and if only you could help/make us realize it. That's a couple logical fallacies and cognitive biases wrapped up into one bad, unsubstantiated claim.

[@LA-fw1tp]

Thanks for posting this!

[@bear211]

She's trying to incorporate intersectionalism into vegan activism but her approach is awkward and has a giant blind spot on the exact issue where a vision of a vegan society would apply, that is the intersection of veganism and class, which further intersects with race and gender, not the other way around. Factory farming in US employs (and abuses) mostly people who are poor, undocumented immigrants ect. These people will mostly suffer the terrible working conditions of a meat packaging plants. Poor neighbourhoods will suffer the most because of the environmental destruction caused by factory farming and meat packaging (ammonia air poisoning, pollution with animal waste, leakage from the massive pools of toxic excrement from cattle and pig factory farms into water and soil, and many more). In US poverty and race are inextricably linked because of the history of systemic racism, so the indirect connection of meat consumption and racism is definitely there but her approach seems to be missing a proper framing of the issue. Heart is in the right place but her perspective is too much of the academic white, privileged class to have a true leftist framing on this issue.

[@SourceChan]

What proper framing is she missing or how is her framing not proper? At the end there, are you saying she's too white (and academic/high class) to speak about intersectionalism? LOL

[@ryublueblanka]

Look at the plant and vegetable and fruit industries...same thing. Plus the pesticides and harmful chemicals on vegan foods. Not to mention that the plants are fighting back. Not to mention the sugar and carb industry that is killing and causing so much obesity. Vegan lifestyle is unnatural to humans and most vegans are on supplements and under doctors supervision. Very dangerous lifestyle. Talk to former vegans and watch "The perfect human diet" which debunks veganism.

[@jonahwhale9047]

As stated below, the first factory farm was actually started by a woman, Cecile Long Steele (chicken farmer in 1923), so that's industry is on womankind.

[@lewamush9325]

Loving the dude in the red jacket quietly giggling next to her 😂

[@catherinehoy5548]

'First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they will fight you, then you will win.' His laughter came from a place of cognitive dissonance and discomfort because he cannot accept that he is part of the problem. Each cow in Europe gets £2.20 a day - more than 1.2 billion people on earth live on less than that - this is an example of the white suprematist ideology that she is describing. Open your mind and your heart and recognise that, as a for instance, baby back ribs are the ribs taken from the back of a baby, a baby who was taken from his/her mother who was herself forcibly raped and will be killed when no longer financially profitable - it's just not cool. Not forgetting the trashing of the wider biosphere, eutrophication and the antibiotic pollution.

[@enid9911]

According to her logic, couldn't you say then that veganism is inherently matriarchal because there are currently more organizations concerned with animal protection than the protection of men's and boy's well-being? It's better not to conflate to many issues and make too much pointless connections. It all sound so pretentious and it seems more that she is solely standing there for attention rather than the cause of veganism. I prefer your approach of saying things like they truly are. I also liked your example of masculinity. While off-topic, you argument regarding it is actually a good response to feminists who complain about toxic masculinity and conservatives who want to shame men back into traditional masculinity alike.

[@victorfernandes7955]

I really like your videos, and I despise people who enjoy torturing any kind of life, but I think there is too much humanising of animals in society. I see how sincere you are about caring for animals, but I just do not see killing animals for the purposes of eating or other reasonable things as a bad thing.

[@climb318]

Sexy Fish is apparently a restaurant in Miami. TIL.

[@annesofiestisen239]

man, between this video and the debate one where indeginous peoples right/need to eat meat was the carrying argument, im having a bit of whiplash…

[@keriezy]

The vast majority of Americans don't know that avocados ripen off the tree. All I am saying is the average person doesn't give shit because they have no clue how any of it works.

[@GOLDENFLYWARRIOR]

The mass majority of avocados are only made to ripen off the tree due to being shipped abroad. That didn't apply here in South Florida where I grew up with avocados, key limes, mango trees. We always waited until they ripened on the tree before taking. But commercial fruits are usually made to ripen off the tree. And it taste it too. Tomatoes taste like crap if not from my local farmers market.

[@KenMasters.]

Fun Fact: Donald Trump sells his own brand of stakes, which is why Carol Adams says "eating meat is racist".

[@cbond1c113]

I think the point she was trying to make is that 'we justify the eating of animals based on the indoctrinated belief that they don't have souls.' The correlation between this and Racism, would be that 'it was also once considered justifiable to put blacks into slavery and treat them like animals, because of the indoctrinated belief that they did not have souls.' So the argument would be that 'eating-meat is a hold-over from the same colonial mindset, which is white-supremist in nature.' It's an interesting point to make, however she did a poor job at presenting it.

[@joelmoreno8631]

Vegan is one of the new religions just like the pronoun group's ,. Like the people you can't say anything about cancel culture types new the three new religions ...

[@KsandrPann]

"pronoun group's"?

[@mm-dn6oe]

Are you one of those people offended by pronouns?

[@monk3110]

@@mm-dn6oe for me it depends. I will use she and him. I will not use any other weird ones like Xe or xer as those are wild made up concepts that are stunting people and mean nothing. I will not use any if I think you’re just playing a power game. I will simply not associate. If someone demands to be referred to gender neutrally I’ll pull a Khajiit and say things like “this one” “that one” “the one over there” “the one in the sweater” “that belongs to that person” That’s all gender neutral. That seems fair to me.

[@mm-dn6oe]

@@monk3110 wasn't asking you

[@katiebogue8755]

I wonder if she was given that time limit. Because if so, she was certainly not in the best position, as its kind of impossible to explain something that complicated in 13 min. I would have loved to hear her give a fleshed out talk so that I could better judge her claims.

[@JojoWasa57]

Go to her website and you'll at least see ads that have led to part of her case. For some of it I'm sure we'd have to read her books.

[@lindseystein9676]

The podcast called Maintenance Phase that has an episode called The Great Protein Fiasco. It might help explain the white supremacy thing that lady said.

[@extropiantranshuman]

is anyone going to talk about the patriarchy of animal products themselves here? Where the domination over the female for their body parts to live on is degrading to females? What about the matriarchy - where males aren't deemed valuable - so they're killed on the spot? Why does it have to do with who the person is? If it's not white and male who invented something - no one would complain. The second we apply demographics to it - everyone all of a sudden goes on the attack. Veganism has nothing to do with demographics of race, etc. People want to make things intersectional where it doesn't exist - and it gets extremely ridiculous. Ideas are ideas - and what matters is how it came to be, not demographics.

[@jazminvazqueztamayo4757]

This was hard to watch, I wish she had communicated her points better. She had such a good platform.

[@freethinkerzgourmet]

There wouldnt need factory farms if there was more farms and only TAKE WHAT YOU NEED NOT WHAT YOU WANT! I do share the pain of animal killing as a meat eater its hard to want to kill things as i dont value my life over theirs but the fact is even if we consume veggies were still consuming a living thing. My 2 cents anyway

[@KeepingUpWithTheGriffins]

Hi we're new here, this was an interesting discussion. Thanks for sharing!

[@ppowell1212]

Carol Adams always frames things within her writing and terms she coined, everything comes back to "my book, The sexual politics of Meat". Same with Melanie Joy, everything comes back to her brand, i.e Carnism. I just wish they would discuss the topic without the need to tie it back in, sometimes in a very clumsy way, to their books. Personally, I find it off putting.

[@SourceChan]

Why?

[@ppowell1212]

@@SourceChan Perhaps it's not, but it comes across as a bit of shilling and a bit of vanity. As in "my words" are the proper words to view animal oppression. I think this mostly academia, but I just wish I would see them give a speech without referencing this books. I praise them as activists though.

[@SourceChan]

@@ppowell1212 Hmm, my comment keeps getting deleted no matter how subtle I try to link you to my comment hosted on an external site. Feels like I just have to give up unfortunately, I've saved the comment and will maybe try again in a few days or a week time or something, I've heard youtube's algorithm sort of cleanses your negative yt-karma over time.

[@SourceChan]

@@ppowell1212 PB (9 letters, website that allows you to share text, ctrl+v (container) into the rubbish) then j3PeDDSc

[@SourceChan]

@@ppowell1212 PastaBen j3PeDDSc

[@extropiantranshuman]

1:46 it was invented by a white male - the word 'vegan', even though many have already been. To tell people to be 'vegan' would dismiss many other nations - to show it's only from one location just because their name is on it. However, it's done all the time. It has nothing to do with racism or discrimination. People take credit for other's work. The worst part is the peddling and promoting the veganism in this manner - that's the hard part. Who cares about what someone invented? It matters how it's promoted! That person who invented the word 'vegan' is long dead - he doesn't promote anything. It's the rest of it. Also, I really don't like the idea that just because it's white and male - it's automatically bad! That's racist in itself. Anyone who says someone else is racist when they're racist themselves in saying that can't be taken seriously!

[@anuke123]

Well maybe this could be effective as a speech delivered to a group of super woke youths who happen to not be vegan yet. 🧐

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

You make a good point. That's a pretty big target audience

[@koolaidjerk]

Whether or not that's true, we shouldn't be lying to people, making bad arguments, or linking ideas that have nothing to do with each other. Every single major culture in the world eats meat, and has done so since their inception. It's not a white thing, it's not a patriarchy thing. It has nothing to do with racism or hating women. To say that it does is just patently absurd. You can (and should) argue in favor of veganism, but you should do so honestly, while being logically consistent.

[@Celestina0]

@@koolaidjerk Adams never made the claim that people didn’t eat meat. I’m sick of seeing this strawman to be honest.

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

@@koolaidjerk oh yeah, it's really a bad speech. No one should ever try to make a speech like Carol, but since this is already out there, maybe some ultra-woke people might be convinced by it.

[@SourceChan]

@@koolaidjerk Can you name me a single bad argument or "link between topics that has nothing to do with each other" she's made in the oxford vegan proposition video? She never claimed it was white to be non-vegan, she never claimed non-veganism is patriarchy, she never claimed non-veganism is racist. Anything else?

[@margotgrey1006]

I don’t believe that people say that they don’t want to know about the bad things done to animals because they’re scared of looking weak for having to express the emotions that come with that, I believe they don’t want to be told because they know that they will feel really guilty about eating animal products and they really like the taste of animal products so they don’t want to feel guilty about it and think that ignorance is bliss and if they don’t know then they can keep on eating animal products.

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

I think it's both. First is the internal struggle, then the struggle to stand up for what's right to others who will criticize and demean

[@miumau7144]

I would like to say that "respecting animals" and thinking that nature allows you to kill the animal you hunt are not only a Native American believes...

[@fatimaghailan6728]

Why does it matter who holds the belief? It's an incorrect belief based on simplistic assumptions about animal welfare and what animals prefer/care about

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

It makes sense that many people would develop this idea. Like Swayze mentioned, it's human nature to want to believe that causing harm is justified.

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

@@fatimaghailan6728 it can be helpful to learn about the people/ culture, to find a middle ground in order to dismantle the belief

[@miumau7144]

@@fatimaghailan6728 because "white people" have developed such believes as well. I was just thinking that I know hunter gatherers in Finland used to think similarly. The woman in the video says something along the lines that white people appropriate those believes from native americans.

[@gd_gnz]

This video is being advertised by chicken fingers….lol didn’t give a gender but you never hear about rooster fingers.

[@riley2872]

Sharktale's characters are the sexy fish that come to my mind lol

[@user-vd2jk7dl3p]

Yeah cause we all know how much Hitler loved his meat 🤦🏾‍♀️🤦🏾‍♀️🤦🏾‍♀️ (on the off chance someone doesn't know he was a vegetarian)

[@amberbridgeford8088]

Lol I got a hippo7 ad on this video

[@tobilemoine9604]

That's really deserving to the cause, maybe this event was meant for a small audience, but one recording and veganism is branded as wokish mess. We need more level headed figures.

[@withazcooper1464]

Wild animals die because of injury, disease, starvation or being killed and eaten. A clean gunshot is probably the least horrible way to die.

[@jonahwhale9047]

Just for the sake of science, could we try on you first? Here's look forward to when vegans can hunt down hunters in a fair fight. (It's not just about the death, it's also about the life you deny them).

[@rjn-od8vj]

Ugh I hate the woke brigade. I cant support either party anymore.

[@SourceChan]

Good. I hope at some point you will reconsider watching her speech and ask yourself whether her points and arguments are as irrational as her purely optical (re)presentation.

[@user-tj8hg9dv4c]

Is the guy on the left wearing red jacket laughing on her side or not? I see him laughing but he’s sitting on her viewpoint’s side? Anybody know his name - is he just a regular student or public politician?

[@Jen18812]

I’m curious as well.

[@SourceChan]

They are likely aren't grouped by their side of the argument. JP is sitting on the left, Mikaela or whatever her name is sitting on the right, they're on the same side of the argument.

[@extropiantranshuman]

4:41 I call people 'it'. People take offense to that, but I call animals 'they'. Idk what that matters to anything!

[@fatimaghailan6728]

Comment for algorithm :)

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

No, I'm commenting for the algorithm ;p

[@TranceHeed]

I am the algorithm commenting

[@someguy2135]

Her presentation was an opportunity lost for a more persuasive speaker, and allowed meat eaters to use her as a straw man for "crazy vegans."

[@ganasde65]

You could see Mikhaila smirking to herself, probably glad she's not seen as the crazy one for once

[@someguy2135]

@@ganasde65 Too many people watching this debate focus on Carol Adams and ignore the other advocates for moving beyond meat in this debate. Mikhaila only has her own experience to present. The plural of anecdote is not data.

[@el-bov8034]

@@someguy2135 >>"The plural of anecdote is not data."

[@someguy2135]

@@el-bov8034 Case Studies are regarded by scientists to be on the lowest rung of credibility. These diet fads have come and gone fueled by the placebo effect.

[@el-bov8034]

​@@someguy2135 >>"Case Studies are regarded by scientists to be on the lowest rung of credibility.">"These diet fads have come and gone fueled by the placebo effect."

[@haircafekevin]

It is extremely disappointing that this was the person chosen to represent veganism at this debate. Especially since Mikhaila Peterson so deserves to get humiliated for her idiotic views.

[@timm.8729]

Hey, If you have seen her speech you know that she doesn't have a choice if she wants to live and be relatively healthy. To call that idiotic is missing the point. What would you do in her shoes?

[@haircafekevin]

She's completely full of crap and constantly contradicts herself. Her promotion of the carnivore diet is political, she's trying to start a culture war with vegans by portraying it as a far left SJW movement. She wants to galvanize conservatives by scaring them into thinking the left is coming after their meat.

[@timm.8729]

I think it's unjust to claim that she is lying without any proof, especially since all the people around her and all her doctors can confirm it. I'm not against veganism, I think it's the most ethical nutrition. But not everybody has the choice. A friend of mine has suffered from severe depression for decades, it's a wonder that he's still alive. He's tried everything, everything. The only thing that helped was a carnivore diet. I know what he has been through, and believe me, you would've made the same decision.

[@issarob]

@@haircafekevin I wouldn't disagree that she attracts a more right leaning audience, but I think a lot of that is due to who her father is. But specifically regarding her diet, the impression I get is she wants to bring awareness to a diet that helped her autoimmune disease. She doesn't seem anti-vegan, just against vegan activists who promote the idea that everyone can be vegan. But maybe I missed something? Do you have video or some proof where she contradicts herself or where she has made her diet political?

[@haircafekevin]

@@issarob Yes, she is a liar and a grifter, check out Vegan Gains' video on her and also Lifting Vegan Logic's recent videos on her. It's clear she doesn't know anything about nutriton and she doesn't even really care that much about the subject of nutrition. She just hates vegans because she sees them as being part of the left and she wants to use the carnivore diet to start a culture war. Her lion diet is nothing but a gimmick.

[@michaelneedssleep]

I think most people who are invested in fighting for systemic justice would be disgusted by her talk. She’s not being “woke”, she’s co-opting that language to make her points seem more powerful than they are. Her tactics are representative of the portion of vegans who have pushed me away from veganism as a social movement, and toward people like you, Swayze. haha.

[@jonnieinbangkok]

I'm gonna order my next bacon cheeseburger 🍔 with extra "misogyny" and see if my female server has any idea what I'm talking about 🤔

[@bp56789]

Look at the boy in the background in the red jacket lol.

[@ReginaApple007]

People give white people and men waaaayyyy too much credit

[@monk3110]

These people are very insulated westerners who know nothing of the world and it’s history

[@sectionalsofa]

Obbviously this woman's wacko, hard sell does nothing to promote veganism. I want you to know that your reasoned, compassionate approach is very compelling and I always look forward to your videos. You offer lots of (vegan ) food for thought. I personally am not vegan but my diet is at least 90 percent plant based and I've moved more and more in that direction. It's important that you know that you are not only preaching to the choir but to the congregation.

[@tonygray9174]

Lmao. Why are so many mock meats named after white supremacist words? Always knew that Tofurky had racist undertones😉... I'll never look at black beans the same way.

[@iCanbEYOURrUKIA]

Carol Adams watched one episode of Yellowstone and said "hold my smoothie" 😂 As a side, when you mentioned the video where they discussed an "animal consent to being hunted", I think that people who are trying to justfy this are almost attempting to level themselves to animals? And by that I mean, they look at a lion hunting an antelope and think "this is just nature and the antelope knows it's going to die", and then they put themselves in that equation and say "this animal I'm hunting understands and had come to term with its death" 🤦🏽‍♀️ like no, that animal has instincts and their instincts tell them that want to run and fight for their lives. Hunting would be super easy if they prey just gave up and flopped over to be eaten 😂 you touched on this in the video and it's just a silly thing to try and convince oneself that animals want to be hunted and "sacrificed "

[@PercivalBlakeney]

... and FIRST!!

[@oeb39th]

Carol you are fire thank you for your attention and hard work.

[@oeb39th]

and you and your channel too

[@maheklaul8622]

even if she believes this stuff she should play smarter politics and not say it lol. this doesn’t even resonate with my extremely liberal vegan ass. half her sentences start good and then devolve into something that doesn’t even make sense. maybe it’d make more sense if i read her books but like swayze said it shouldn’t be that way esp when you’re tryna get a group of people to vote! even the small percentage of that room that would consider reading the book aint gonna do it before the vote 😂

[@marzettik]

Yeah, this debate went a little sideways. Lol like some comments were good but she says the things that non vegans say is too extreme. And the lack of evidence is overwhelming,

[@jonahwhale9047]

22:20 Adams has a slideshow of all of the sexy animal cartoons & shop adverts she's seen. They do exist for, typically blue collar establishments. I'd guess they are a little old fashioned these days but, let's face, those guys just like tittie adverts on everything; beer, power tools, motorcycles, guns, nuts & bolt sets. You name it, it's not specifically just about meat, & the advertizing industry was far more sexist than it is even today. Could you do a critique of the old Carl's Jr burger adverts?

[@jonahwhale9047]

May be it's a reflection of the far more sexist world she grew up in (born 1951), & life in the 60s & 70s, which is why you don't see it as she does? But, yes, these liberal arts thesis contorsions put me off as much.

[@PercivalBlakeney]

I see her point. Arguments against Veganism are almost exactly the same as arguments against Abolitionism or Womens' suffrage. Points to consider &c. ❤️

[@stopthephilosophicalzombie9017]

What are you talking about?

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

The speech is full of buzzwords that trigger people in either direction instead of saying exactly what she means and making strong, novel arguments. It sounds just like all the congresspeople who try to get their soundbite highlighted on the evening news

[@koolaidjerk]

Horrible argument, eating meat has nothing whatsoever to do with "white supremacy". People see this and write vegans off as crazy woke extremists, which this woman seems to be. I've been vegan for years, but I had to stop watching the video after her first sentence. I've never rolled my eyes or cringed harder.

[@stopthephilosophicalzombie9017]

@@koolaidjerk Vegans already have a bad reputation as woke extremists. This just reinforced that view.

[@boblester8641]

Why are these all first world problems

[@joelmoreno8631]

My only point is this are the three new religions of our time much love to all peace

[@Telenova.]

Have you read The Round House by Louise Erdrich? In it, there is a story relaying the memory of Native Americans being starved out by colonizers' land grab and domestic husbandry; In the recollection a starving boy comes across a lone Buffalo (they are all but extinct), and speaks of his trouble and of his respect for the animal, and as if by understanding the Buffalo pauses and the boy takes her life. The story also mentions that the colonizers' would shoot entire herds of Buffalo from train cars and just leave their bodies to rot. I think there is a stark difference between the Cosmocentric approach to life and the Capitalistic reality that eradicates even the space conceptualize such an integral sphere of existence. I guess I mention this, because you've said that factory farming is required to live in an omnivorous society, but I disagree. Greed and desensitization are not explicit qualities of omnivory, but of Colonization (Buffalo and Beavers were all but extinct following the arrival of European settlers) and its proselytizing of Capitalistic values.

[@extropiantranshuman]

2:23 sure veganism might've had roots in fighting real white supremacy when it came to WWII, but that's not really what it's about and that was coincidence. Why conflate the matter? That's like saying that you prefer jewish culture to go vegan, because WWII was against it. Some say jewish culture is about veganism and that veganism is being spread by jews in the media (which is true, but not the whole truth about how everyone else is too). This would be ridiculous - because it's just conflating. When you say something in a tone like that - something that's hate-based via demographics - it encourages hatred and violence, because now people try not to be vegan, because of anti-semitic viewpoints associated with it that make no sense. Carol Adams is extremely depressing in her viewpoints, as it's just going to create rifts that give people new ways to not be vegan, against her own strides. She undoes her own work without realizing it.

[@Kattkopi]

Lol maybe Lola from Shark tale is the sexy fish you’re thinking of?

[@Halikatti]

Eating meat and killing animals bc of it is not wrong. It is ONLY an opinion, not a fact. As is also the opinion that it’s right, it is an opinion. Animals’ feelings doesn’t matter as much as meat eaters’ feelings when enjoying meat and other animal products. Of course that’s debatable. Because the opposite opinion is not a fact and therefore true.

[@danwarb1]

Designating certain races edible is some extreme racism to be fair.

[@popinontoast]

Hey unnatural vegan, I was wondering if you could do a video about the ukranian war? obviously its so horrific and a difficult one to talk about so no pressure, but I was wondering what your take on defending your country, weather you think being a conscientious objector is has any similarities with veganism, or weather you think its completely justified when the threat of totalitarianism and colonisation is the alternative

[@annala2956]

Time had an article today about how the cost of beef is rising due to the lack of competition in the industry and that congress is working to reduce the anti-competition rules. I say, "just give up meat", problem solved 😀 But tying masculinity to eating meat is stupid and insulting to everyone.

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

Agree - just let the industry die. Trends are clearly not in favor of animal ag. The amount of intervention the government has in aiding animal ag is disgusting. Gov should use their "aid" to retrain people working in the industry instead of keeping a sinking ship afloat.

[@monk3110]

Wha-… lack of competition in an industry is not a lack of demand for the product

[@cherrybearylemondrop]

@Monk beef and dairy consumption has been decreasing overall since the mid-1970s. If the US government weren't so heavily subsidizing the industry, I'm sure rates would plummet even faster.

[@joshyouwuhh]

I think Carol Adams neglected the purpose of the event. Sometimes it makes sense to make social claims knowing that they won't have general appeal. But she came to a discussion about moving beyond meat and chose to sacrifice opportunities to make direct relevant points that would have supported veganism. P.s. I have read "the sexual politics of meat"

[@richardhunter132]

This was embarrassing, but the pro-meat side, particularly Mikhaila Peterson, were even worse. Only the philosophy professor who spoke was any good.

[@Celestina0]

What was embarrassing about it?

[@ben66562]

@@Celestina0 have you watched it? are you saying it wasn't embarassing? i haven't seen it, just curious

[@Celestina0]

@@ben66562 yes

[@Peopleofthesun386]

The whole Peterson family is embarrassing and weird

[@richardhunter132]

@@Celestina0 It was embarrassing that she presented an internet survey as a study and misrepresented it, leaving out the bits that undermined her case.

[@dreajanekato]

Swayze, why weren’t you speaking at this thing??!

[@Theelderscrolls52]

This lady would have a fit 🤣 I am vegetarian and my boyfriend eats meat 🤣

[@hatepaste]

That lady was an inch away from advocating the eating of fetuses because of patriarchy.