Ecclesiastical Latin vs Classical Pronunciation History | Latin: The Immortal Language

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

🤠 Take my course LATIN UNCOVERED on StoryLearning, including my original Latin adventure novella "Vir Petasātus" learn.storylearning.com/lu-promo?affiliate_id=3932873 🦂 Sign up for my Latin Pronunciation & Conversation series on Patreon: www.patreon.com/posts/54058196 🦂 Support my work on Patreon: www.patreon.com/LukeRanieri 📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com

[@RedXD42]

Ah yes, my favorite English-speaking Roman.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Adsum tibi! 😃🦂

[@RedXD42]

polýMATHY Salve! :)

[@roseguber3240]

@@polyMATHY_Luke But are you Roman?

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

@@roseguber3240 haha I’m Italian-American

[@roseguber3240]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Not Roman then...haha

[@N0m5T3r]

Can you just imagine how proud a Roman would be to learn that 2000 years later Latin is still so widespread and important.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Very proud!

[@MaiiOrduna]

Roma Victrix!

[@AverageAlien]

They wouldn't be happy at all learning that Rome was not in fact eternal.

[@-smp-scientificmethodpersp838]

@@AverageAlien to keep it remembered is to make it immortal. So long as one person remembers it, it will never die.

[@greendeane1]

With no native speakers it is a dead language. Greek, older, more comprehensive, is still spoken by millions.

[@nzeminator]

I've always known that Lex Luthor was a man of culture

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Alberto Bruni indeed. 😂 😈

[@a2falcone]

I now know why polýMATHY makes me uncomfortable hahaha.

[@bannedaccount3752]

*Victor Zsasz

[@Ecolinguist]

Thanks for clarifying! :)

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

My pleasure!

[@Stray___]

"If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" - Latin to the Germanic languages.

[@Robwolf28]

No one actually speaks Latin and French has Germanic cognates in it I discovered some. Then the word guard is just a transliteration of warden.

[@Malaestro]

@@Robwolf28 Yes they do. There's been a Latin radio broadcast in Finland for decades

[@achanwahn]

@@Robwolf28 also, this is way too literal. 🙄

[@achanwahn]

😆

[@Benjamin-ml7sv]

Germanic is spoken all over the world, Latin is spoken nowhere but ok😂

[@patrykjansozanski]

When I was in school, in Poland, we used to learn only Ecclesiastical Latin - I don't know why. No one explained it to us. I was even 100% sure that the rules I knew were correct, so I had to check if you were not making mistakes, when I started to follow you and then for the very first time I got to know that there were couple systems of pronunciation. :)

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Cześć! Thanks so much!

[@Ariverfish]

POLSKA GORA !!!!! 🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱

[@FerencDojcsak]

My mom learned Latin in high school and I knew a lot about the language since I was little. But she could never explain me how Latin became "dead" or in your terms, "Immortal" (or how she knew how to pronounce if the language was dead), and how the Romance languages branched off, or, again in your well-put terms, how Latin branched off from them. I even forgot how desperate I was to find the answer back then. Today, I'm not only reminded of that, but finally got my answer. Thank you!

[@bertrandgeorgeon3992]

"This is when latin died ; said better, it became immortal". More than erudition, this is pure poetry.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Very kind.

[@thepcmaster]

How you read the English text with classical Latin pronunciation at ~16:52 is almost exactly as Slovaks, Czechs, Poles, Hungarians, Romanians and many others, who don't actually speak any English, read English naturally :) Of course with our local qualities of individual sounds, which are, however, very similar to classical Latin (I'm simplifying)! Thanks for an awesome video :)

[@demezon6572]

In a word: true.

[@thego-dev]

(estonian too, so it's quite intelligible for me as well!)

[@Yorgos2007]

Very true! (I'm from Hungary.)

[@lwmaynard5180]

Ancient Latin came from the Cimmerian tongue or language ? It spread from THRACE through out Europe with their DNA ?

[@TheZenytram]

I joked to my father this days that Latin is the language that all timetravels should spoke. If you go to much back in time your native language isnt the same as you speak, and if you go too much in the future no one will speak like you do but Latin will never changed.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Definitely! Certainly the written language.

[@iosusito5683]

What if want to travel before the raise of the Roman Empire? 😂😂 Proto indoeuropean maybe?

[@malster1239]

@@iosusito5683 Greek?

[@Username-xt6ll]

If you knew Classical (or, even Modern Standard Arabic), you would have the same advantage in the Arab world. To an extent, you'd have that advantage in the entire Islamic world when communicating with individuals who learned Arabic as a second, liturgical language. It's really cool to see languages that can do that. I wonder if there are more languages besides Arabic and Latin that can?

[@a2falcone]

@@iosusito5683 Classical Latin is still closer to Proto Indoeuropean than any contemporary language.

[@iberius9937]

Revisiting this video three years later......one of your best projects! Quality content!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Grātiās, amīce!

[@kaminobatto]

I really appreciate the research and effort that must have gone into making this video. Great stuff, Luke!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thank you Yamen!

[@alexsteb]

You deserve every single Patreon supporter. So much free and well-presented information. amazing

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Wow, thank you! You're so kind.

[@SPVRINNA]

I would love to see a comparison/deep-dive into the various national pronunciations of Latin prior to the Restored taking hold (i.e., what Latin sounded like in Portugal, Spain, France, etc. before Restored was adopted.)

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Jônatas Cabral nice idea! I’ve done a few on my other channel ScorpioMartianus which you can find.

[@SPVRINNA]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Bizarre, I looked before but I must have missed it. I'll check again more thoroughly!

[@dseanjackson1]

@@SPVRINNA I thought the same thing! Also, I looked and couldn't find any of those other videos either.🤔

[@eccentricnima9077]

As a medical laboratory science student, I always prefer to pronounce the name of microorganisms in Classical Latin.

[@ICXCTSARSLAVY]

This was REALLY interesting and helped clear up a lot of confusion I have had about Latin for decades.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I'm so glad! 😃

[@tomkot]

16:50 This is actually a very correct pronunciation, we should make that the new universal standard spoken English :)

[@ogorangeduck]

bring back the thorn and yogh

[@servantofaeie1569]

honestly i wouldnt mind that. im tired of so many inconsistancies in English pronunciation, from a cot-caught pin-pen GAE speaker

[@teleonomix]

I agree. People always want to reform English writing, but it isn't broken. Simply native English speakers don't know how to correctly pronounce what is written.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

hahaha

[@servantofaeie1569]

@@polyMATHY_Luke i could actually understand it about 80%, its the lack of s-sh distiction that threw me off the most

[@grumpyoldman8661]

What an absorbing video, and Luke is obviously a very gifted linguist. In my old age I am starting to 'tip my toe' into the deep lake which is the Latin language, as I have an interest in the history of the Roman Republic, and, also (as a catholic) in Ecclesiastical Latin. This was a stimulus to my studies; thanks Luke. (UK)

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I'm very happy you liked the video! :D Much obliged for the kind comments. Have you seenmy LLPSI and Lingua Latina Comprehensibilis course on my other channel ScorpioMartianus? That's the fastest way to fluency!

[@Ernest4502]

I just discovered your channel and I have to say that I have never been so impressed in my life. God bless you and never stop what you are doing Brother !

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

That’s so nice of you to say! Welcome!

[@ccelletti]

Video eccezionale. Ho scoperto il tuo canale da poco, la mia fidanzata, che conosce la pronuncia ecclesiastica, criticava la tua pronuncia classica. Incuriosito, ho trovato la tua spiegazione illuminante. Grazie!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Sono contento! 😃 Sì, abbiamo molte pronunce che possiamo usare in latino.

[@PodcastItaliano]

I have to admit I do kind of like the ecclesiastical pronunciation a little better, maybe because I'm Italian or because that's the one I'm most familiar with. But yeah, as they say, dē gustibus et colōribus nōn disputandum est

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Exactly! And I think that's fine.

[@deumevet]

i don't like ecclesiastical latin for the same reasonXD looks like an italian reading latin for the first time.

[@ariannabinaghi5222]

@@deumevet yes, but after all Italian is the evolution of Latin...

[@MrWolf-xk8sl]

La pronuncia classica è molto meglio perchè si capisce l'etimologia delle parole odierne.

[@AleaRandomAm]

@@ariannabinaghi5222 As is Portuguese, French, Castillan, Gallician, Astur-Leonese, Aragonese, Catalan, Occitan, Romanian and other dialects... It's not a reason to pronounce it in the French or the Portuguese way

[@CloudslnMyCoffee]

I honestly just like the sound of Ecclesiastical better. It amazes me that there are people who look down on others for using the "wrong" pronunciation as uneducated. Really? Didn't those "other" speakers learn the same language? Why get mad because someone speaks with an accent? Bonus points if the snobs don't maintain vowel length.

[@marna_li]

Great video! We tend to see "Latin" as one homogenous thing, the same everywhere, which it was not. Even the Roman soldiers from the Italian peninsula had their "dialects" that evolved into the Italian languages of today. When conquering and settling foreign territories they mixed and incorporated the vocabulary and grammatical features of languages already spoken there into their colloquial or "vulgar" speech which later got standardized and evolved into the Romance languages of today. It was a great exchange of language and culture. Latin (with Vulgar Latin dialects) likely existed in this state of diglossia for most of the time. And to mention, there has been a wave of re-latinization of the modern languages in the last 300 years.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Definitely! Thanks. 😊

[@VasileIuga]

The late Latin sounds like a grumpy Romanian.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

😆

[@BulletTheEnforcer]

@@polyMATHY_Luke He didn’t forget Romanian!

[@1johnnygunn]

Grumpy? You should have heard my German grandma yelling, "himmel arsch, und swirn!"

[@BrandonBoardman]

Agreed. 😂😂 I hear Italian and Romanian in his Late Latin pronunciation.

[@Larofan]

Wow this channel deserves more credit :O very informative! during my 5 years of linguistic studies noone ever tried to explain this switch.. it was always Roman Empire and Latin and then razzle dazzle poof and Latin is no more - only localized stumps of modern era languages... thank you for making this easily understandable :)

[@thinking-ape6483]

Your videos are always a treat.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

And so are your comments! Thanks 😊

[@gaialoperfido5619]

Very interesting video!! Watching previous videos I’ve been wondering why your Latin pronunciation sounded a bit different from the Latin pronunciation we are taught in Italy and I finally know why now. Good job

[@murrax7639]

So many people get so worked up about this. I'm a Catholic who attends the traditional Latin mass. As long as people respect our priests and our traditions for pronouncing Latin in the Ecclesiastical way and don't force them to use Classical Latin, then I'm completely fine with the academic circles (Edit: Or literally any other circle for that matter) using Classical Latin. Does anyone seriously think that Julius Caeser would have used Ecclesiastical Latin? Come on. This "debate" has been something I have been utterly perplexed about ever since I started learning Ecclesiastical Latin, it's such a non-issue.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks, Murray! Yeah I concur. I really like both a lot, so it’s a shame how people will seek to vilify the other.

[@RichardDCook]

I'm Catholic too. Unfortunately I came into the Church long after Latin had been marginalised, however one local Parish has been re-introducing Latin into their English Masses and also does a Latin Mass each week. When singing/chanting/responding I use the reconstructed Classical pronunciation I learned in school a half-century ago (it's all I know).

[@Robwolf28]

@@RichardDCook The preservation of Romanism, Judaeo-Christianity is not confined to one language.

[@Robwolf28]

@@Thelaretus The usages of personifications as to say the community of disciples of Messiah Yeshua the Lord, makes no sense outside of the context. So if you were making an analogy perhaps but outside of that, it seems like nothing. Then people need to understand what a community means it is not just gathering at a building.

[@RichardDCook]

@@Robwolf28 That's true enough, though somewhat random, having no relationship to anything I said in my own comment.

[@SketchyTigers]

Back when I was first learning english as a kid, because I also knew polish when I learnt how to spell words it would sound much like how you spoke at 16:50. I still pronounced it the correct way but internally when spelling it out it sounded very pure and classical. Your pronunciation seems very natural to me as I often read with a very hard, calculated pronunciation when reading part of an english article while talking with my parents in Polish as my standard r.p. accent is difficult to understand for non native speakers sometimes and I spend a great deal of my time speaking Polish in general

[@pietrocasablanca8500]

Loved the video! One of my favourite documents that shows the transition from latin to medieval italian is in the"placiti cassinesi" , essentially a trial transcription where the witness testimony was reported in the original vulgar from the 10th century. "Sao ko kelle terre, per kelle fini que ki contene, trenta anni le possette parte Sancti Benedicti." I think the use of the letter "K" in front of e and i already showed that back then in Italy, the "C" sound had the current soft sound

[@Marco_Venieri]

i study roman history and latin literature in Italy, at the university of Macerata, and our teacher of latin reads with ecclesiastical pronunciation

[@Spscc23998]

How amazing would it be to travel back in time and plant a hidden microphone to capture Cicero's Catiline orations to the Senate? Just imagine having those high-def MP3 files on your phone and being able to listen to them while reading the corresponding texts...

[@stuartrackham6316]

Absolutely fascinating! Particularly your highlighting the Carolingian standardisation of Latin and its role as a formative precursor of the Renaissance. "Latin the Immortal Language", love it, more tee shirt material.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thank you! haha I'll make that shirt.

[@katanoisshkiTRV]

wow,maybe the best fundamental guide for classical latin for me cause it's well explained

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thank you kindly!

[@jopeteus]

16:50 as a Finnish speaker, this sounds more natural to me than current English pronunciation

[@step7814]

Same for Russian.

[@holywarrior5059]

Same for Hungarian. On the contrary, the current English (and American etc.) pronunciations are irritatingly "unnatural". :D

[@AngelVazquez-xh1dh]

Same for Spanish

[@Cherodar]

@@holywarrior5059 As an American and native English speaker, I agree with you! I wish we would go back to a reconstructed phonetic pronunciation.

[@magyarbondi]

This part made me laugh. Basically, we East-Europeans speak "restored English". :D

[@leonardodecillis]

Got here from your reply to my comment on your previous video. This definitely confirms my understanding of how the Ecclesiastical Latin behaves and was formed, it seems to have been made to sound somewhat close to Italian afterwards and was not a natural evolution of the language. Great in-depth explanation here! I would love in the future an analysis of the evolution of the pronunciation of the letter written as "c" in romance languages as it still baffles me today. I am very fascinated by how that evolved and became so different. I mean, translated in "english sounds" what once was pronounced as "k" in latin became "ch" in Italian, "s" in Spanish and was often replaced by ch sounding something like "sh" in French, etc. I would love a video in the future about how that might have happened/evolved, I feel like c took so many different directions. 😉 Anyways, love both your channels, keep up the amazing work! 😎

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I’m glad you liked the video! Thanks so much for being a subscriber of both channels. 😊 Yes, that’s an interesting topic! I’ll definitely cover it.

[@Philoglossos]

So here's more or less what happened: Firstly, [k] began to shift to [c] before /i/ and /e/. [c] is a palatal stop, a sound you can hear in the modern Greek word και. Compare 'και' (the site 'forvo' has recordings) with the Spanish word 'que' to hear the difference between [ke] and [ce]. This [c] sound then transformed into the [tʃ] sound of modern Italian and Romanian, which fascinatingly has also happened to Cypriot Greek, so in Cypriot 'και' is pronounced like Spanish 'che'. Subsequently in Western Romance (Old French/Spanish/Portuguese etc.) [tʃ] shifted further forward in the mouth to [ts] like the 'ts' in 'cats'. It remained this way for a while until it lost its affrication and became [s]. Then in standard European Spanish it shifted forward to become a dental fricative [θ] to avoid merging with inherited /s/, while in southern dialects it merged with the inherited /s/ sound and that's how you get distinción vs seseo. Latin America was settled by southern Spanish speakers so that's why Latin America has seseo. Another parallel would be English and German. Compare English 'water' with German 'wasser'. Old High German first turned the original 't' into 'ts', and then into just 's'.

[@xolang]

I'd never really thought of Latin being immortalized this way. Thanks for the new perspective. Handsome man, handsome voice, handsome knowledge sharing. 👍🏾 You got a new subscriber from Ινδονησία. 😊

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thank you to you in Indonesia!

[@josephbaumann292]

I am so fascinated by your knowledge of the history of Latin. I can't get enough of your videos.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks!

[@FLEurThaie]

Très informatif et en plus tellement agréable !! Merci mille fois de partager votre passion avec nous !

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Merci a vous!

[@hwangsaessi2335]

I don't know much about the topic, but this has been pretty interesting. Besides, your voice, narration style and (English) pronunciation are very nice to listen to!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Aw thanks! 🥰

[@y2ksw1]

This explains a lot. Thank you for this insightful explanation!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@massimolisoni4990]

This is the most interesting video I ever watched about the origin of my language (italian). 😱 THANK YOU

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Sono molto contento se ti è piaciuto! ❤️🇮🇹

[@boominem8177]

oh thanks a lot for this video! I just learned that what I learned at school was the ecclesiastical pronunciation. I was not even aware that another pronunciation existed (sorry). I studied Latin so many years ago and your videos are trying to pull out long discarded memories from my brain!!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Great!

[@gabrielgads]

Perfeito. Everytime I learn a little bit of latin it is worth my time! There is also law teachers latin...There is a movement in Brazil to avoid the use of latin expressions in the court and roman law is no longer an obligatory subject in law school. Only after finding your channel I knew what I was missing. Thank you! Obrigado.

[@dottore3870]

¡Qué pena! El derecho romano y las expresiones latinas solían marcar la erudición de un abogado.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Obrigado also to you!

[@lxportugal9343]

É melhor eu nem falar rsrsrs

[@angeloflorentino4060]

Isso realmente é uma desgraça.

[@aadamy]

THANK YOU. This cleared up all my questions! I used to love singing the Carmina Burana with all the different pronunciations!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Glad it was helpful!

[@loitadoranonimo6811]

Latinized pronounciation of English sounds just like an Italian speaking English

[@shrektheswampless6102]

Kind of but his accent is weird. I mean it sounds like "Latin accent".

[@RobertSeviour1]

'Pro nunce iation' please.

[@tita_piranna]

Also similar to how someone in soain with 0 idea of english would read aloud a text 😅😅😂

[@anon003]

I am Italian and I can confirm, it doesn't sound so unnatural to me

[@eduardothiagomonteiro980]

Seu canal é ótimo! Parabéns!

[@aaronmalek4499]

I want to learn Latin primarily because I hear it every time I go to Mass. I've had a little unease because the best instruction I can find uses the classical pronunciation. After your video I feel much better. Thank you.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I’m delighted to hear that, Aaron! Yes, it’s very easy to convert one to the other. As you can see I easily can use both, which is just a matter of practice. Mutual tolerance I think is crucial, since otherwise we cut ourselves off from great material in the other pronunciation. It would be like spurning UK English to prefer US material. It’s too limiting.

[@mariapicciBeauty]

Thank you for this video, very instructive.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Grazie a te, Maria! 😊

[@Hérodoclachainehistoire]

this channel is awesome and unique it deserves a lot more views and subscribers !!!

[@gmcrosa]

Salve. Your channel is delicious. And your pronunciation is admirable.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Aw htanks, Gonzalo! 🥰 Salvē et tū.

[@MarkRosa]

I had had no idea that that Roger Wright book (11:15) existed; just ordered it! I also like Solodow's "Latin Alive" which discusses all the sound changes that come up in this video and also has some excerpts from Romance languages at various periods. Not much about Alcuin, though; I learned about him here!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

That's right! Another great book.

[@waldowopa]

Awesome video! The man really loves the word "thus". I studied classical latin and some time after that I started studing singing and they wanted me to pronounce with the ecclesiastical pronounciation... I mean. It made sense because I was usually singing masses and other sacred music... But I had to relearn how to pronounce it. Also sometimes I am required to use what musicians call the german pronounciation. So it is confusing!

[@davideleazar5721]

que buen video y muy interesante, Lucas

[@feleslucis-emanueldearaujo6237]

Good to see you finally put all of this in a single video! I was looking forward to it! You know I prefer to use mostly the Ecclesiastical, but I also like the Classical for some cases regarding recitation of some poems and also reading ancient texts, while Ecclesiastical sounds quite better when praying, for reading some medieval texts (especially from Saints Augustin and Thomas Aquinas) and also for talking (although I've been trying to get better at Classical so I can talk with you guys more properly in the chats). Thank you again for this class! Also, I hope that guy finally gives up on his repeated comments in your video trying to attack the RLP.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks, Emanuel! Haha, that guy, you mention, is Russell, who has already become infamous in the comments sections of my videos for his posts. 😂And yes, he did comment. You'll find my response to him here in the comments below.

[@feleslucis-emanueldearaujo6237]

@@polyMATHY_Luke dude...He doesn't give up, does he?

[@warrenlehmkuhleii8472]

I am Catholic, so I prefer Ecclesiastical, because that is where I am going to use Latin most. But I do appreciate Classical, because that is what many of the great works of Rome were written in.

[@vincenzorutigliano5435]

Latin Mass 🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦

[@cristianotavor]

I prefer Ecclesiastical latin

[@Riposte821]

But the written is the same, no? Just the pronunciation differs now.

[@crusaderACR]

@@Riposte821 yep

[@eduzz4655]

"SO I prefer". I don't see the compulsory connection.

[@Eskalante]

16:50 is how my father reads english :) Slovak language has specific sound for each letter and as he don't speak english, he reads it as Slovak.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I love Slovak! 🇸🇰

[@wgk4845]

polyMATHY: Latin has become immortal Classical Arabic: Hold my coffee

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

hahaha. Well, Arabic is in the situation where Latin was circa 800 AD: a high style register exists above various dialects and pronunciations that are rapidly diverging. Eventually, if Classical Arabic is retained as a non-native instrument of international communication, it will become 'immortal.'

[@AraboNormand]

eherm twitter.com/ArabiEdris/status/1287326104152408065

[@jackpayne4658]

@@polyMATHY_Luke An old friend of mine grew up in Afghanistan, speaking Pushtun, but learned classical Arabic at his Islamic school. Many years later, he visited Morocco - where they speak Arabic, of a kind. He tried ordering food in a restaurant, using the only Arabic he knew. The waiters gathered round, awestruck by his beautiful pronunciation. Then one of them muttered, 'We are so sorry, Sir - we didn't really understand a word you said'.

[@ic.xc.]

Well Arabic didn’t exist really at the time of the Roman Empire as a written language, Syriac was the most common language at the time of Mohammed, there is even a lot of influence of Syriac in the Quran.

[@sophiaperennis2360]

@@ic.xc. Arabic dates back from the age of Hammurabi, doesn't it? Not that the "immortality" of Latin has anything to do with its age.

[@MariaKozorezova]

I laughed so hard on English text reading with Latin pronunciation 👏👏👏😂 Understood everything, this is the accent and pronunciation lots of Slavs have when they start learning English and some still have it even though they're already fluent :D Loved it!!

[@oliverrust8993]

I'm so glad I found this channel

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

So glad you’re here!

[@AlexisPerez-yy7dk]

I am a native Latin speaker of the Castilian variation who also happens to speak the parisian variation of Latin. Also the most important thing I learned from this video is that I'm not the only one who has beef with Ecclesiastical Latin #teamclassicalLatin. magnifico video!

[@AlexFeldstein]

Excellent history of the language evolution. One of your best. I learned a lot.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Very kind of you. 😃

[@adrianokury]

Very interesting and well-presented clarifications. Tolerance seems to be the keyword here.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks! I concur. 😊

[@robertdunn6064]

Fantastic, Luke. In my blog. The FSSP use ecclesiastical. I can do both pronunciations, but I read only.

[@jjmourajr]

i'm always waiting for the next video, thank you Luke!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks, JJ!!

[@GrandeSalvatore96]

Totally unrelated, but... that’s a really cool painting above your right shoulder.. great vid altogether 😄

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks! My father is the artist! www.RobertRanieri.com -- also follow him on Instagram :)

[@GrandeSalvatore96]

polýMATHY Done! And worth it for the photo of you from 1994 🤣

[@giorgiocolleoni5661]

Grazie mille Luke. Video prezioso. Come sempre.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Grazie a te, Giorgio!

[@marivaldomessias9988]

Você é excepcionalmente incrível. Estou muito agradecido pelos vídeos tão bem elaborados e estruturados. Ups e você é também muito atraente.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Obrigado! 😊

[@marivaldomessias9988]

@@polyMATHY_Luke com muito prazer :-)

[@ManuelBravo]

Hey Luke! I just uploaded my first youtube video where I read a Latin text towards the end, could you please tell me what you think about my pronunciation? Almost the whole video is in Spanish but there is that one part in Latin Greetings from Mexico!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Manuel Bravo I enjoyed it very much! Thanks for showing me. I left a comment on your video. 😊

[@ManuelBravo]

@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you very much, Luke, I'm glad you enjoyed it!

[@haroldchase4120]

Your a light in the darkest . I truly enjoy your work

[@pompeiusmagnus2276]

Did Alcuin's restored 'classical' pronunciation restore the "k" consonantal pronunciation to all pronunciations of the consonant "c," including pronouncing "Caesar" as "Kaisar" instead of as "Tsesar"? What about Alcuin's pronunciations of classical diphthongs? Did Alcuin pronounce "ae" as "ai" rather than as "e"? Any good secondary sources for Alcuin's restoration? Thanks for any info.

[@BrandonBoardman]

As far as I know, he probably would have pronounced ae as ε (an open e) and c/g before e anf i similar to the way Greeks pronounce κ/γ before front vowels.

[@lqr824]

Hi Luke, fascinating subject and I bet everyone seeing the title and clicking the link knows why someone would want to watch. So just edit off the first 50 second and start with "first off." You needn't tease us into wanting to watch this. No-one's here by accident.

[@Veon1]

Super interesting video! As an aside, for anyone who is interested in the evolution of one those "vulgar" forms of Latin, the Portuguese/Galician languages, I recently read a book that I highly recommend: "Assim Nasceu uma Língua / Assi Naceu Ũa Lingua" by Fernando Venâncio (2019). Among other things, it makes quite convincing arguments that around 600 AD there were major and rapid changes to the speech in the Northwestern corner of Hispania that clearly split it off from the rest of the Romance world. It also documents the evolution of Old Galician into Portuguese and modern Galician, including attempts after the Renaissance to "re-Latinize" the language.

[@ObvsCam93]

Fascinating stuff, excellent work as always Luke!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Cameron Paul thanks so much!

[@diegocembrolamusica]

Permultas gratias tibi, Luci, propter curam tuam nostrae vetustae atque neglectae Latinae linguae. Being Italian, ecclesiastical pronuntiation is the way I pronounce Latin, usually. But in spite of this, I prefer and advocate "pronuntia restituta", for two main reasons: 1) It is more consistent, phonetically, and uses less phonemes (sounds). That makes it easier spreading Latin as an international second language 2) It lets you focus on, and understand much better, ethymology. For ex., if you pronounce "ti"+vowel properly and don't use Ramist letters, you can see the relationship between "natio" and "natus", "nauis" and "nauta", "salue" and "salus", etc.

[@helengras7675]

This was really interesting and helpful info! Our family is learning Latin this year, and I was stressing about which variation to choose. As Catholics, I wanted our kids to learn the Ecclesiastical pronunciation first, as this will probably be the bulk of their use of the language. However, we planned to use the Minimus curriculum, which I found out is Classical pronunciation. I started to worry that I was doing something wrong no matter which pronunciation style I decided to teach them, but this video definitely makes me feel better. Thanks! Also, SO interesting how the languages evolved. I have never once wondered how the languages branched off from Latin, but I am so glad I know now. Fascinating!

[@johnsayre2230]

Well that was fascinating. Watched the whole thing. Much appreciated!

[@Philoglossos]

Awesome work! :D

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Grātiās, frātercule! 😃🦂

[@panier2]

This video is very interesting. I knew almost nothing about the latin language and had no idea that we had clues to the historical pronunciation of Latin back to the Roman Empire. Thank you very much for sharing this knowledge with us.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks so much for watching!

[@timo4258]

I kinda wish that in movies where they depict actual Romans, they would speak classical latin instead of ecclesiastical

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Me too, if they're in historical ancient Roman times, using a pronunciation of that time would be fantastic.

[@elimalinsky7069]

@Dave Zav Not only that, but in Judaea the Roman officials would have spoken Greek with the local elites, not Latin. They would still speak Latin among themselves in private, but Greek was the administrative language of the eastern half of the empire at that time. Even so, Jesus would probably have had only very basic knowledge of Greek, if at all, let alone Latin.

[@cannong1728]

@Dave Zav At least he made some sort of effort...

[@Loreman72]

@Dave Zav Actually, the actor who played Pilatus was from central Europe, and you can hear him speak with a strong Slavic twang, esp. when he says, 'Quod est veritas, Claudia?' I was quite chuffed to catch that.

[@alternateperson6600]

That depends on the epoch of course. With Silver Age you would expect residual palatalization even amongst the elites. For golden or classical era reconstructed pronunciation is indeed fairer and universally applicable.

[@ScapularSaves]

Question : How did the Romans in the East (Byzantium) pronounce Latin circa A.D. 800 and after? Did they adopt the Carolingian Convention? We have any evidence on this?

[@antemesinMisericorde]

Does anyone tend to mix both of them when reading a text? I sure do, i.e. I can go with ecce or caesar as classical but not principium or ratio which sound way better (to me) ecclesiastical.

[@leonardoaponte9850]

Ciao.Bravo. Eccellente spiegazione. Tu sei il migliore che fino adesso abbia ascoltato parlare così tanto é bene di solo una parola. Ciao.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Grazie mille! Molto gentile. ☺️

[@leonardoaponte9850]

Scusi, il mio messagio é sul video della parola ciao. Buona serata.

[@npickard4218]

This video is a masterpiece !! I hit the subscribe button. I'd like to buy any books this young man has written!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks! I have a book on Amazon called Ranieri Reverse Recall, and I have an audiobooks store at luke-ranieri.myshopify.com

[@charliesandoval9277]

Thank you for a thorough explanation!

[@luigifontana4164]

In Arabic a similar process is currently happening.. separation between so called dialects and the classical formal arabic (that nobody speaks in real life..) very interesting.

[@fredcaprilli220]

Luke - this video blew my mind. Fantastic - pithy, and taught me many things I didn't know. It's wonderful to hear Latin spoken fluently! As background, I'm a first generation Canadian, son of Tuscan immigrants. I speak Italian more or less fluently (although after 60 plus years of speaking Canadian-inflected English, I now struggle with the Italian trilled R's - maledetto!) I took four years of Latin in highschool, where we learned the "Classical" pronunciation. I have an extremely erudite uncle who lives in Rome, a (now retired) gastroenterologist, who fancies himself a Latin scholar, and when he saw my textbook all those years ago, recoiled in horror at how we were being taught "incorrect" pronunciation (it's not KAIZAR, it's CHEZZAR!), presumably because we New World rubes couldn't handle Italianate sounds, and of course who would know better how Latin should sound than the descendants of the Romans? (Sigh.) At any rate, I had always assumed that "church Latin" was a late evolution of the classical language in parallel with vulgar Latin becoming Italian. But you explained how the change in pronunciation started much earlier. You observe that there is very little difference in the two forms. But I guess I'd observe that when you look at medieval documents such as Magna Carta, there are terms (related to administration etc.) that perhaps would not have been familiar to the ancient Romans. I wonder too about the "Vulgate Bible". (I have a print of the first page of Genesis from the Gutenberg Bible in my office.) It seems the vocabulary is fairly basic (I can understand much of it without resorting to a dictionary) and I'm wondering if that reflects a simplification of the language itself or an editorial decision to make it accessible to more people. Thanks, and look forward to watching the rest of your videos!

[@olbrok]

16:50 as a native Finnish speaker it was quite easy to adapt to the weird English. I’m just starting on my Latin learning journey and enjoying your videos a lot!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks so much! Are you familiar with my LLPSI playlist on ScorpioMartianus?

[@olbrok]

@@polyMATHY_Luke I am! I'm currently using your videos and duolingo to try gauge my interest and decide if I should take the leap and order the books... Before your appearance on Ecolinguist I had no idea that a latin language community exists on youtube!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

@@olbrok Cool! Yes our community is awesome.

[@KilVall]

@@olbrok Tervetuloa, ystävä! Gaudēbimus quī Latīne loquimur novum Finnum inter nōs habēre (et nōn sōlum quia Finnicae vōcālēs aptissimae sunt prōnūntiātiōnī Latīnae).

[@maestrogalindo]

This is fantastic! Thank you!

[@ilgufo1146]

Sei così carismatico che riusciresti a vendere una fornitura annuale di assorbenti ad una comunità di soli uomini

[@Philo-math]

... or ice to an Inuit.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

😂😂😂 grazie!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

@@Philo-math lol

[@consigliereparlamentare5649]

Bravissimo

[@yigdrasil]

Your knowledge and performance are admirable. Congrats!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Fernando Pedroza de Mattos thank you, good sir! 😃

[@yigdrasil]

polýMATHY I’ll be always expecting a new vídeo. Gratias tibi.

[@heynyquildriver]

I refuse to believe that this guy sounds American. No he sounds Latin. He should speak American with a Latin accent. Such a shock coming from Norbert.

[@LarsPallesen]

Very interesting stuff. I learned a lot of new things about latin from this insightful video. Thank you.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Thanks for watching!

[@Houkiboshi713]

Ran across you on Ecolinguist's channel & this is the first of your videos I've seen. As someone who speaks Spanish/French, has a Bachelor's degree in the former, & loves history as it relates to language/culture this video was absolutely mindblowing🤯 Thank you!

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

I'm so glad you think so! Thanks a million. 🥰 I think you'll also like my other channel quite a bit: kzbin.info/aero/PLU1WuLg45SiyrXahjvFahDuA060P487pV

[@richrumble]

Fascinating. Thank-you. I falsely assumed educated Latin was much more constant in its pronunciation from the 1st to 5th centuries.

[@camembertdalembert6323]

11:57 in french we say "knigget" (see Monty Python and the Holy Grail).

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Lol that is exactly what I was referencing

[@omarmercadogalan2148]

Love your channel; you're a really nice guy! Your english is really clear and easy to undertand.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

You're very kind. Thanks.

[@allenfilmore5725]

So I used to work at a pet store in the fish department and this woman comes in a says a Latin fish name I correct here pronunciation using my Ecclesiastical Latin bias not knowing there even was a classical pronunciation. She said she was a Latin teacher and I was saying it wrong. I say I was taught Latin 10 years and she said “well they taught you wrong”. I can say I was a bit offended.

[@polyMATHY_Luke]

Great story! Thanks for telling it. Things like you mentioned are the whole reason I made this video. 😊 People need to be aware that there is more than one pronunciation standard. Ecclesiastical isn’t wrong, Classical isn’t wrong. I’m a bit shocked if she had no idea Ecclesiastical even existed, but that’s possible. 🤷‍♂️ Thanks for the comment!

[@Hesperell]

You were both being pedantic. You probably should not have corrected her, but honestly she should not have started by pronouncing it as classical Latin in the first place, since the convention for scientific names in the English-speaking world is the traditional (pre-reconstructed) English Latin pronunciation.

[@mariorossi3898]

Thanks/Grazie for this "super" excellent lecture. Being Italian and having studied Latin at school, I tend to prefer the Ecclesiastical pronunciation of Latin that, I find more refined, if I may say. But your detailed explanation helped me to understand the evolution through centuries and countries of the language of Cicero or Kikero :) Now I see clearly the direct connection of pronunciation from Caesar (Kaesar) into the German Kaiser. I have just subscribed; Gratias tantum "Rufus" :)