Netflix's Cleopatra: why we shouldn't re-imagine the past

[@quatreraberbawinner2628]

I cant think of anything more dystopian than reimagining history

[@vespenegas261]

Unfortunately there is a step past that. Doublethink. And we're almost at the end of the line

[@rbu2136]

They don’t care. They want attention.

[@O1OO1O1]

​@@vespenegas261 there's a step beyond that. In Ghost in the Shell, they change someone's memories such that they don't know what is real anymore

[@vespenegas261]

@@O1OO1O1 GitS Memory alteration is direct "intervention" while doublethink is an established code of conduct. I find the latter much more nepharious and pragmatic

[@O1OO1O1]

@@vespenegas261 Ghost in the Shell is one example. You're not paying attention if you think it's the only one

[@ramonserna8089]

To me the real problem is it is called a *documentary* instead of making a historic novel aka a fanfic. One of the most famous archeologist said he offered Jada a tour on egypt so he could explain cleopatra history to her and she passed. Thats like Mick Jagger offering you to tell you about his life and you declining because you already know more about the Rolling Stones than him.

[@IncredibleMet]

I remember growing up that my grandmother said, I don’t care what they teach you in school, the lead vocalist for the Rolling Stones was a deaf black Jewish trans women of Antarctic descent.

[@freedone.]

@@IncredibleMet deaf black HASSIDIC Jewish trans women of Antarctic descent - let's get it right, shall we? 🤣😂

[@timkinss]

It's also entirely possible she passed because she has almost a splinter of self-awareness and foresight left and rightly predicted that the truth would inevitably not be the fantasy she required

[@creed8712]

That’s the thing. Hamilton doesn’t get this kind of shit because it doesn’t play itself off as a historical drama

[@kuroyuri04]

@@IncredibleMet Holly wings bro!! You've made me laughing so hard!! 🤣🤣🤣

[@t-shirtedhistorian]

As I have posted elsewhere: Rather than focus on ACTUAL Nubian Pharaohs such as: Piye, Shabaka, Shebitku, Taharqa, Tantamani, and Atlanersa, they chose the one with the name recognition. Because she's not the only female Pharaoh (Look up Hapshepsut or Merneith sometime), she's just the most well-known due to Hollywood outside of Rameses, and Tutanhkamen, and maybe Akhenaten. She's not the only "white" Pharaoh either because she was the very last of the Ptolemaic Dynasty which was founded by Ptolemy, one of Alexander the Great's generals. He and his progeny ruled Egypt as Pharaoh's for 275 years. But they chose to go after the white woman because of the name recognition in Hollywood. If someone pitched to one of the ignorant producers at Netflix, "Hey let's make a film about Pharaoh Semerkhet!" they'd have gone, "Who?"

[@mikedangerdoes]

You are right. There is an almost endless amount of interesting stories for talented, passionate writers to draw inspiration from, and many of which would suit whatever message or agenda you are trying to push. But at the end of the day it is about the money, and the effort they want to put in (not a lot, apparently).

[@AdirondackRuby]

True. It's about her name. And the proof lies in the fact that this is season TWO of the African Queens series...had anyone watched the first? Can they name the queen? Had they heard of her at all?

[@zer0homer]

as should be expected from quota-hired talentless and ignorant hacks from half across the globe

[@Peter-oe2fe]

​@@AdirondackRuby Njinga! Pinkett-Smiths 'documentary' on this African 'Queen' was also deeply disingenuous, to say the least. It was unadulterated anti-white propaganda!

[@diamondlife120]

@RubyLovesRocket Never heard but will look for it

[@blakem.2611]

The last half of the video where you talk about the conflict that progressives will inevitably run into when trying to say that certain experiences are lived in and can't be emulated versus those that can, was so well put. I honestly want to write down what you said in order to present it to somebody the next time this conversation comes up. Haven't heard anybody put it so well into words before. Love your insights!

[@akashnagar8694]

Yup that was great

[@neji667]

Completely agree. Something I've always thought about but was never clever enough to put into words.

[@brock232]

💯

[@miaferrari958]

I don't even think progressives are actually in favor of this so-called "representation" via blackwashing. They just repeat this narrative of inclusion pushed by entertainment companies who only want the diversity cookie points without actually bothering to: a) let minorities tell their own stories, with their own racially-accurate characters and b) creating something original. I've noticed that when it comes to wokeism there's this psychological tendency in people that once you claim to be "anti-racism" (or anti-homophobia, or what be it) you have to adhere to whatever ideals that general group presently holds, no matter how irrational. "You call yourself anti-racist but you don't like a black actor playing a white historical figure? That sounds a bit racist to me..." The gaslighting that goes on in these groups has pushed me away greatly from any form of social activism or awareness these past few years.

[@EasternRomeOrthodoxy]

Stop making it about your stupid politics, Americans - you are all sick mental patients, both on the right and the left 😆 🇷🇺❤🇪🇬

[@Sound557]

“My desire is to bring Cleopatra into the 21st century.” Lady, Cleopatra was alive in the first century….BC.

[@SeasideDetective2]

Also, she makes it sound as if the European race no longer exists in the 21st century.

[@mikex3908]

"Re-imagined" implies she was imagined to begin with, which she wasn't.

[@laughingbeast4481]

Past is always imagined. Characters of the past are never accurate and partially made up. World would be much better place if people realised that. A lot of historical documents and relics we have is plagued with propaganda.

[@Ciborium]

Denzel Washington also played a nobleman from Messina (Sicily) in Shakespeare's "Much Ado About Nothing", directed and starring Kenneth Branaugh. I didn't mind at all. Maybe because Denzel is a great actor. Maybe because it is a work of fiction. But I am bothered by the "black washing" of actual historical figures like Anne Boleyn and Cleopatra.

[@shawna620]

I agree-- fictional stories are fine, I didn't mind the Bridgerton series & didn't care in Much Ado-- one of most favorite movies!

[@DatcleanMochaJo]

I mean merit is important but just because it is fiction doesn't mean it should compromise historical accuracy. Unless that is the point. Like an alternate universe kind of deal. Or if it is live action and there is a short supply of the actors needed of the race for the setting. Like Japanese Superman.

[@runajain5773]

​@@DatcleanMochaJo or Japanese spider man his megazord

[@skyintatters]

Because it's a stage play to begin with, there's a layer of unreality or distance already.

[@creed8712]

@@runajain5773to be fair and this goes for pretty much every spider man they are all named different. It’s the same identity but rarely are the gender or race bent spider people directly Peter Parker.

[@AllegroRubato]

It’s not “colorblind” casting. Calling it that is virtually propaganda at this point. It’s very much color-aware. And it’s only ever in a single direction.

[@the_absurd_hero]

Colorblind casting is a phrase used in theatre-the “high arts” mentioned in the video-to cast the best actor for a given role (to uphold character credibility) regardless of race. It’s how you get a black or Asian Hamlet, in spite of Hamlet being a Danish white guy. With colorblind casting, the race-swapping usually, though not exclusively, cuts in one direction because most of the characters in theatrical repertoires are white while excellent actors can be found among all races. This is different from the more recent black-washing that’s taken over Hollywood, which demands racial equity regardless of character credibility. It’s more noticeable now because Hollywood productions, long since creatively bankrupt, are (re)making productions with clear character precedents or historical conditions that necessarily specify race/racial relations. Tl;dr: The intent behind casting actually does matter, and the way contemporary Hollywood chooses its cast is fundamentally racist.

[@melinda6921]

@@the_absurd_hero In some arts a color blind cast is necessary, such as in opera. You cannot have a majestic and perfect Aida without using the best singers on the planet, so you must ignore their physical appearance and choose them solely on the basis of their talent. There are hundreds of millions of black people in the world but if none of them can be a good Aida then you have to choose a singer of another ethnicity, otherwise it will be a disaster. A color blind cast is practically never necessary outside of the high arts where talent and ability of the highest level are needed, because it would only be opportunism and falsehood. There are thousands of beautiful and talented white actresses who could play a great little mermaid, there was no reason to hire a black actress, but there are very few opera singers in the world who can play a great Aida so her role must go to one of them, regardless of the color of their skin. For a documentary a color blind cast is not only unnecessary, but also a historical error because it is not necessary to use the best of actors to interpret a historical character, but it would be better to use a good actor who physically represents the person whose story is being told as best as possible. The documentary about the life of Cleopatra does not need extraordinary actors, in fact it is entrusted to barely decent actors like hundreds of thousands of others in the world, so there is NO sufficient or decent reason that justifies the choice of hiring only black actors to play Egyptian characters EXCEPT the precise will to convey the message that Cleopatra and the Egyptian people of which she was queen were BLACK!

[@David-hc4xh]

Modern Egyptians do not want to be identified as black because Eurocentrism invented only 3 races; White, Brown (Asian) and black, where middle East and Egyptians do not neatly fit. The question is not whether Cleopatra was black but why they don’t want to acknowledge the possibility she was black - they cant bear to admit in their folly that modern civilization might have started with black people.

[@janach1305]

Colorblind casting works in opera because opera is a strange world where people sing at each other and move around on symbolic sets. In that sort of the universe, it is easy to look at a black man and see a German, or a Chinese man and see a Venetian gondolier. This absolutely does not work in the more realistic world of mainstream film. A black man in film is always a black man; he is never a 19th-century middle-class German with a white daughter, as in one excellent production I saw of The Tales of Hoffmann.

[@marvelprince]

It only ever works in one direction? So no white person has ever portrayed a minority in anything ever? Yikes

[@LauraTheRed]

Orwell warned us of this "reimagining" process in his infamous book, 1984. Now there's a work of fiction slowly becoming a documentary..

[@laughingbeast4481]

The problem is that people think it's only happening NOW. Nope, it's always has been like that, just in different way. After all Orwell wrote based on what he saw. People are doomed, we always really notice when it's happening to us.

[@nicholastotoro7721]

I loved that biopic on Shaka Zulu starring Liam Neeson

[@jbkerns]

I was about to post wanting Shaka Zulu with black British soldiers and white Zulus.

[@codiak2680]

A biopic about Mao Zedong starring Danny Trejo would be the goat.

[@mapachem4828]

😂😂😂😂

[@jackielogan9104]

Portraying one country as multiracial and multiethnic, especially in a historical setting, makes Earth feel SMALL

[@akl2k7]

That reminds me of controversies years ago about video games such as The Witcher 3 and Kingdom Come Deliverance not having anything but white people. Of course, that ignores that both take place in either a Medieval fantasy setting or just plain Medieval Central Europe and were made in countries (Poland, Czechia) that are still not particularly multiethnic today.

[@mitchryan257]

Neolithic people from the Levant migrated to Egypt about 8-10,000 years ago. Menes was the first Pharoah when he United the upper and lower kingdoms 5,100 years ago. Egypt was conquered by west-Asian Hyksos 3,600 years ago, then Assyrians conquered it 2,700 years ago, then Persians conquered it 2,500 years ago, then Greeks conquered it 2,300 years ago, etc. Only at one point, the 25th dynasty which lasted a hundred years, were pharaohs black when Nubia briefly conquered Egypt.

[@oliverh3538]

You cannot reimagine the past, you cannot reimagine actual people! These people were once alive. Show then respect

[@OwO377]

Equivalent of the past is like the parent from the past and people still alive is the child. Remove the past people in present day never existed and it already tell in multi media.

[@NormieNerddom]

I can't wait for Netflix to cast Ana de Armas as Mansa Musa, one of the richest, most powerful African kings in history. After all, Africa isn't very racially diverse and a latina woman would absolutely give some much needed representation for that time period. If that made you sick, you're on the right track.

[@angelocoll7802]

Come on, Mansa Musa was a patriarcal muslim man, he could be the bad guy who destroyed animist pacifist african kingdoms but nothing more!

[@trestianb]

I am curious to see a production of Little Women with an all men cast.

[@the_absurd_hero]

Drag Little Women. It’ll be celebrated near and far for its stunning bravery.

[@fabiana.4640]

I would love to see Morgan Freeman playing Blanche Dubois in A Streetcar named Desire.

[@underworldguardian704]

I would love to see someone “re-imagining” MLK Jr as a white guy.

[@RocksOff72]

Since progressives are ok with race swapping historical figures, I nominate Ryan Gosling to play President Obama in a movie. That's ok, right?

[@mayloo2137]

Race-swapping only goes one way. Diversity apparently only applies to non-white people. The implication being that whiteness is all the same and therefore, there is no diversity. The same applies to sexuality. Who wants to be a bland heterosexual person who believes in the binary when you can imagine yourself as numerous genders and sexualities.

[@mariasophia383]

The apocalypse would happen 😂

[@ironpulcinella3586]

​@@mariasophia383 good

[@bigduke2140]

That is a very good argument you make. It should be said every time this race swapping occurs.

[@Acolyte47]

Remember: this is all coming from the nation that thinks Africa is a country...

[@anne-marie2972]

Also every must be black because Africa 🙄🙄.Some people even teach their children this Afrocentric pseudoscience 🙄🙄. In America ofcourse.

[@OwO377]

Guess they don't know other countries than generic countries.

[@zephyrerazortail5478]

I can't believe me, a Greenlander from one of the tiny villages, who didn't even finish higher education, knew about that and they don't... What's the world coming to?

[@miaferrari958]

The most amusing thing about this debacle is that we probably wouldn't even be talking about Jada's new show if it wasn't for the controversy, because, let's be honest, who would give a sh*t about a show produced by her? I think this pseudo-controversy is fabricated to get us talking, and maybe to get some people to hate watch it. Meanwhile we're all on social media calling each other "racist" and "woke", indulging these media companies who couldn't give any less f*cks about us, representation, or historical accuracy for that matter. I hope for the day we realize we only do their bidding by engaging in these arguments.

[@randomdude2832]

if a black kid wants to play erik the red n a school play, or a white kid wants to play shaka zulu that's ok and we should let them, but for profesionals in tv or movies, it's their job to make me think I'm watching erik the red or shaka zulu and not only should look like them as much as posible, that includes melanin content.

[@O1OO1O1]

7:30 I don't know, Robert Downey Jr did a pretty good job 😂

[@edmontonboy99]

That dude playing a dude disguised as another dude?

[@John-rn1nm]

I didn't even know that was Downey until someone pointed it out. He was that good, I though it was an actual black guy.

[@rzn2258]

I didn't know Lincoln Osiris was based on an actual person........ Doofus

[@PoopaChallupa]

We don't get to 1984 all at once. A little by little.

[@WebOSDevelops]

Stalinist Russia did the same thing as Ingsoc when it came to history. Kinda scary…

[@O1OO1O1]

Netflix really hates money.

[@enterprisedavidcain]

It’s never about money, it’s about the message

[@brockthroton3535]

Key would Netflix not the history channel or discovery channel it was made for entertainment

[@O1OO1O1]

@@enterprisedavidcain No it's definitely about money. Their password sharing crackdown is about money. What you don't realize though is that all of these bad choices are the result of people who are only interested in money running the show. And we keep giving power to people like this and wondering why we keep ending up in situations like this. It happens in politics, it happens in art, it happens in education, and academics, prisons, hospitals. So long as profit is the motive, we can't have nice things. People have to be the motive.

[@O1OO1O1]

@@brockthroton3535 No, it was made for profit. Entertainment is how they reach that goal. Entertainment was never their goal. Netflix didn't start out as an art studio creating art, they started out as a movie rental business. They destroyed an entire industry. Granted, one that was ready for disruption. But is what we've gotten better? I wonder

[@brockthroton3535]

@@O1OO1O1 the profit is based on if people are entertained on the app…. Hence entertainment not the history channel which is for educational accuracy

[@mikedangerdoes]

I'm not a fan of "white guilt" or paying for the sins of our fathers, per say. But it does annoy me to see period pieces seamlessly integrate different ethnicities and cultures in unrealistic ways, because it kind of overlooks the racism, prejudice, and oppression that existed in those periods. I think it's a bad message, and it starts a move towards forgetting or glossing over undesirable facets of our history. It's that old adge; "those who do no learn from history, are doomed to repeat it" and the first step towards that is pretending it didn't happen.

[@Roy-jj6hk]

If we don't preserve the past as it was, we will cease to learn from it.

[@MariaIsabellaZNN]

Jada: "I wanted to tell stories about black queens but I couldn't be arsed to research if those actually existed, so here's black Cleopatra instead, have fun and eat shjt!"

[@SacClass650]

I'd like to see Tommy Lee Jones play Nelson Mandela.

[@Micchi-]

Ryan gosling as Martin Luther King

[@anomalotheriataurus8806]

@@Micchi- Tyler Perry As Theodor Roosevelt

[@tyr3759]

I think the outcome of it all is the opposite of what they want to achieve. I feel a great disdain and sometimes even disgust of these people of wokeism, identity politics and the alphabet perversions. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

[@mayloo2137]

Count me in.

[@mupeM]

The only problem is that Cleopatra was actually dark in complexion, perhaps if we begin to discuss whether dark in complexion and black are the same thing, or what race mixed individuals actually are?

[@tyr3759]

@@mupeM That is perhaps a discussion you could have, but is in no way related to Cleopatra as she without a doubt was not black nor dark skinned.

[@mapachem4828]

No you are not alone. The problem is that they push it too far. They wanted rights and equality and those were given but they didn't know where to stop so they started to demand priviledges and stump on other people's rights, that's where sh-t started to hit the fan and there is a lot of people now that's in the same situation as you are. Causes that started right have turn to BS because activists loose their income and poitival status if they have nothing to cry about basically.

[@tyr3759]

@@mapachem4828 Well said. The pendulum has swung too much the other way, which will invoke a force to swing it right back to a place where it shouldn't go.

[@darktenor4967]

thumbs up for the single most in depth and well constructed argument I've heard on this topic. Indeed, I've been thinking myself recently that there is a major tension in the idea of trying to claim both the sacrosanct primacy of certain types of cultural and/or gender experience as exclusive, and yet holding that anything which falls outside those cultural or gender experience is so relative and malleable that it can, and indeed must be altered and appropriated for fear of being "exclusionary." Reminds me of a recent interpretation of Bach's cello sonata I heard on Classic fm, which was presented with a traditional African singing voice replacing the cello, which was touted as letting Bach be "enjoyed by everyone!" As though "everyone", can, will and indeed must enjoy something culturally African, rather than something which was European. yet the greatest irony is this was presented by shaku Kanneh-Mason, recent winner of young musician of the year, a talented Cellist of mixed Antiguan, and Sierra Leone descent, who made his name, and indeed the names of his musical family by playing, and indeed being expert at playing European music in the formal, classical tradition; Bach very much included, along with the rest of his family.

[@noless]

I've seen more and more people bringing up John Wayne playing Genghis Khan as some kind of counter argument. What they leave out is that the movie is really old. Made in 1956. It was a financial failure and John Wayne regretted playing the part. They also didn't pretend like Genghis Khan was actually a white guy. So the comparison fails.

[@bobbyschannel349]

It doesn't matter, it was done it was something to Hollywood's it a lot in fact it wasn't his John Wayne playing gangis Khan, but it was white people playing multiple ethnic people Mexican Arab Chinese Japanese Native American and black people. And it did it in the most disrespectful Maki insensitive way so it is part of a American Hollywood Heritage and culture and not to mention white people have taken from cultures all over the world and made it to do you think modern day music is your lazy you do understand that contemporary music is black influences music that was stolen

[@noless]

@@bobbyschannel349 Of course it matters. How many asian actors do you think were available at the time? And how many of them were even remotely as famous as John Wayne? The studios would pick someone who they thought would sell the movie. Besides we are talking about movies made decades ago. We don't still live in the 50s. Your argument is weak if you're trying to justify what is happening right now.

[@mxvega1097]

Great essay. I'm getting heartily sick of the gratuitous and excessive valorization of "lived experience". I heard it a couple of years ago and thought whatever, strange phrase, I'll tune in for the next round of weird jargon. But it's stayed, settled in, and spread. It's the relativism of the NOW. Me, my truth, my lived experience. Facts be damned. Like the absurd figure in the Cleopatra doco trailer who cites her grandmother as an expert on Cleopatra's race. We used to call these old wives' tales. They still are.

[@MyHam-os4bq]

My biggest issue with the “lived experience” phrase is that it often does not fit in with a person’s actual REAL lived experience. It is often exaggerated and even warped completely in order to fit a certain ideology. A true “lived experience” used to affect how one sees the world. Now it seems to be the opposite. Someone sees the world or is told to see the world in a certain way, so they adopt that as their own view. Some people WANT to see the world as racist, for example, so they will insert themselves into a hypothetical “lived experience” and project that perception onto themselves. We are told it COULD happen or has SUPPOSEDLY happened that someone somewhere was discriminated against in the workplace on the basis of their darker skin color, therefore that has been MY lived experience as a black person. Or, more commonly, my black ancestors once upon a time may have been slaves, therefore that is MY lived experience. (I’m personally not black btw, just using it as an example)

[@redsoxu571]

As someone who believes that all media that does not claim "accuracy" should generally fulfill the vision of those who create it, I reject the notion that historical fiction or even adaptation should treat race as a line that cannot be crossed. My mind was opened years ago by Denzel Washington's character in Much Ado About Nothing - while that is a Shakespearean work, it still held a historical setting, and when I first started watching the film I had an initial double take seeing a black man playing a prince in what I understood would have been a white upper class society. By the end of the film...I no longer cared. Washington was so charming and powerful in the role that I wouldn't have wanted someone else playing it simply for the sake of visual accuracy. But this understanding brings with it two important caveats: 1) It is damaging to deploy this idea with double standards. It is a tremendous setback if we allow certain categories of role to be fungible, while setting others as off limits. Beyond that, the extent to which this is executed matters too - it doesn't take much research to see that increasing minority actor representation in media has exploded to a disproportionate level for one group, while still leaving behind (well below even proportionate levels) many many other groups. These uneven outcomes prove a lack of organic efforts behind the well-intentioned motives, and people bristle if not revolt against inorganic efforts. 2) Works that aim to cast with color blindness can't seek to have their cake and eat it too. For example, I couldn't have cared less about the diverse cast of Bridgerton - right up until there were references in the story to how the queen had broken racial barriers when she won over the king. From that moment on, the show shifted from simply having a color-blind cast to being a work of outright alternative historical reality a la Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, in which case the show should have gone all in on that concept by being more explicit about that fact. Even that could have worked very well, but it wasn't properly set up and thus only created cognitive dissonance. One of what I see to be a fundamental rule of morality is that efforts to combat injustice never justifies fresh injustice. That is the core mistake we so often are seeing today that undermines well-intentioned efforts and turns them at least to some extent rotten and destructive of the very goals they set out to achieve.

[@michaellanger5671]

Can’t wait for the Egyptians to create an MLK movie featuring Dolph Lundgren!

[@iyziejane]

The Audacity of Hope: A reimagined biography of Barack Obama, starring Ryan Gosling

[@EJK2099]

Thankfully the Egyptians are not petty

[@LauraTheRed]

I would watch the hell out of that movie 😂

[@the_absurd_hero]

Excellent explanation of the problems of identity politics, especially as it relates to casting in dramatic works.

[@thenapalmbrothershq5585]

When your ideology needs revisionist history you are wasting your time.

[@darrengordon-hill]

When your revisionist invalidates the need for your ideology to exist... One imagines at some point they'll need to re-imagine that which is re-imagined...

[@floydffrogfloydffrog7453]

It's always a pleasure to hear a well reasoned argument, presented evenly and with some weight, and without reliance on gimmicks. Historical revisionism such as this is not the same as playing "What if?". Ironically a fictional accounting of a black Cleopatra might actually have the chance of being entertaining and perhaps even interesting. But simply swapping races because "they can and must" is the antithesis of entertainment.

[@emademad3435]

You cannot change history, but Hollywood will always do this

[@Stone7C1]

again. these castings arent color blind. if theyre color blind, we would have all kinds of actors represented in all kinds of roles. race swapping historical white figures with black actors isnt color blind, when its deliberately done in only this one direction. i challenge anyone to find an opposite example of white actors getting cast in the role of a historical black person in the last 5 to 10 years. i dont mind being proven wrong. as long as these swaps only ever happen into one direction, and hollywood has their hypocritical rules written down for us to to see and let us know that these castings are anything but color blind, can we please not pretend that they are?

[@mikestanmore2614]

"He who controls the past, controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." - that Orwell bloke. Why is that an issue? Because: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” - that Santayana bloke.

[@richardmcgowan1651]

If you read about this time and what Egypt was to Rome and the actual impact Cleopatra had on it. Its really interesting time as there was a lot more going on than you think. But that is part of the reason why they are making this the way they are. As Rome in this show is the "white" empire and Cleopatra and Egypt will be made out to be the "black" helpless region. Its not by mistake and isn't because someone granny told them Cleopatra was black. Mark Antony and even Caesar himself is going to be destroyed in this show never mind Cleopatra.

[@airborneranger-ret]

Overall nicely done ;) "... we are in a crazy town of relativism". I remember being stationed in Atlanta in 1992, and taking my PC down to a PC service for some help. The PC service advertised that everything was covered under their troubleshooting fee. I specifically asked abut this, was assured that it was true, and when I got my PC back, the bill was higher "because". I pointed out their guarantee, was told it didn't apply, paid my bill and never went back (and they did not fix the problem either). Same place mentioned to me they were having trouble getting a IT service contract with army base. Total lack of self-awareness about what "ethics" is about.

[@SeriousRodger]

Can we have a movie/tv show about MLK starring Ryan Gosling in the lead role and a movie/tv show about Marie Curie but cast Zac Efron? Asking for a trans associate.

[@bsa45acp]

Cleopatra, as a drama, should never be constructed to bring the story of Cleopatra into the 21st century, rather the 21st century should be brought back into Cleopatra's 1st century BCE.

[@Vesnicie]

The stupefying idea has come into play that in order for a character to be "empowered", she can never be shown to be on the back foot. The whole idea of overcoming adversity has been chucked in the bin, as we see with all the Mary Sues who jump from strength to strength. When the racial element is added, the situation gets really weird because on the one hand, oppression must be recognized and reversed. Simultaneously, you dare not show the actual oppression because to do so would be "disempowering" and could lead to something short of a totally positive outcome for the heroine. Modern shows and films are intensely bizarre because they walk a tightrope between muzzling on the one side and disingenuousness on the other.

[@bobbyschannel349]

Well why did white people play Black and Brown characters all through Hollywood history

[@Vesnicie]

@@bobbyschannel349 They didn't invariably. The overwhelming majority of film and television had white subjects because it was written by white people within their own cultural contexts. Where there was cultural intersection, people of color were very often called on to play the appropriate roles. Hattie McDaniel wasn't white, was she? Amos and Andy got their start on radio as the creation of two white guys, but their move to TV meant being played by black actors.

[@74357175]

I have to wonder if the need to constantly "reimagine", rather than create afresh, is inherently tied to the postmodern program. Creating afresh does not appear to be part of this movement's repertoire.

[@MichaelCravith]

I'd still like to know what, exactly, a "21st century audience" is supposed to entail.

[@OwO377]

Better question what is 21 century what we be through previous years we walk backward than forward. It also like go back to the past than go new life despite age already begun and cannot turn back the age.

[@maszkalman3676]

they consist of degener@tes and hoteps....

[@martin8341]

I wonder if we will ever see Adolf Hitler reimagined as as a gay black man… 🤔

[@manfredwilson4475]

Played by Kanye West

[@kimfreeborn]

It's called "Double Speak." Its goal is to implant false memories and rewrite history. "Who Controls the Past Controls the Future" - Orwell.

[@moemothmann6760]

Don't expect progressive leftists to be logical or consistent. Hypocrisy is a virtue to those types.

[@irena4545]

Also, note one thing: it is predominantly European cultural heritage and history that gets reimagined. I don't think we have had black Pilgrim Fathers, George Washington or Abraham Lincoln, have we?

[@magenta6754]

Exactly. Pretty arrogant of Americans to mess with another country's history and culture.

[@rehurekj]

Macbeth, while heavily fictionalised, is still historical figure, and the fact that he was used by Mr. Shakespeare doesn't change it, so if ones complaining about black royalty and Indian nobility in fictional TV drama series then excusing black Macbeth is rather hypocritical, both are fictions making use of real historical figures, and definition of high and low art is rather arbitrary and necessarily subjective to be of any use for any meaningful distinction. Mr. Washington would be great in any other Shakespeare's play just not the ones based on actual history, even if, as I said, heavily modified and adapted one, and personally I do think ones appearance, a type, should be factor even in this Shakespearean high art- after all if Othello was played by typical Irish lad( or lass, after all if race is unimportant then why gender should be any different) with carrot top who's paler than fresh show im sure such casting would clash with the intention and words of the high artists himself. in music or even dance and other such classical, high, art forms appearance doesn't matter cos the art itself isnt primarily about ones look but about auditory experience or beauty of movement of ones body, but in visual arts, theatre and movie, the look of actor, their type, is often the main qualifier and of utmost consideration cos the visual aspect- and ones skin colour is big part of it, just like being of appropriate age for the role, is important if not the most important part of their role.

[@CharleyGurl]

Near every Shakespearean character has gotten a gender ace swap at some point. It's not even funny how many different looking actors I've seen play Hamlet. Denzel was great in the movie version "Much ado about Nothing". My favorite.

[@jeggsonvohees2201]

Imagine how interesting the little mermaid remake would be if it was based on African mermaid folklore, with a different story and characters.

[@einezcrespo2107]

I'm still waiting for that Malcolm X biopic starring Ben Affleck.

[@brianmurphy6480]

Cleoblacktra! 🤯

[@idraote]

Now we've come to the point that Puccini's Madama Butterfly, one of the most popular operas, is considered "cultural appropriation" because Puccini used a Japanese setting and Japanese musical themes. The main character, besides, must now be played by an "Asian" soprano otherwise it is "blackfacing". To remain on the topic of opera and "blackface": Verdi's Othello must now cast a black tenor which is a bit of a problem because the opera is very popular, the part is very difficult and you cannot take it for granted you will find enough black tenors. Recent realisations with white tenors has seen those tenors sporting their original skin colour with no trace of dark foundation to avoid blackface accusations.

[@EkiEkiFatangZooPoi]

We can talk, but a "re-imagining" of Shaka Zulu would never be accepted.

[@Sdea1903]

Excellent point about Denzil playing Macbeth, that's exactly why I had no issue with it.

[@warzoneguy6089]

Producers: we took history and rewrote it for the modern audience.

[@mayloo2137]

Who is the modern audience?

[@darrengordon-hill]

So... I should hate Hitler... but also.... Hitler was black and ended slavery?!?! SO CONFUSED....

[@OwO377]

@@mayloo2137 to be accurately it lame modern audience had lame disease.

[@markfx12]

Your closing statement is spot on.

[@JonasGrumby-OO]

Up next: the Shaquille O'Neal story. Starring Peter Dinklage.

[@stevedenis8292]

The re imagined story of the greatest hockey player.

[@arnepianocanada]

This is the most meaningful post on - or arising from - the Queen Cleopatra debacle. Thank you. Count me in as a subscriber. (Superb voice and speech clarity also.)

[@ralph-im-a-star-wars-wiggum]

I've known about you through Nerdrotic, Critical Drinker et al and love your takes and content. You are criminally under-subbed. Keep up the magnificent work.

[@seaninflorida9741]

Another brilliant essay on your part. My view differs in that I don’t care what color the actors are in claptrap like Bridgerton because it’s escapist fantasy. Heck, they can do whatever they want. Likewise, if you want to do David Copperfield with a multi-racial cast, go for it. It’s fiction, and fiction can be reimagined. Let the box office decide if it’s a good idea. My line draws at calling something a “Documentary” while ignoring the known history. History is always inaccurate to some degree, but putting in things you know to be false is a disservice to the viewer. This has been going on for a long time, with movie makers twisting history to suit whatever they think forwards their agenda. The blackfacing of Cleopatra is just the latest, too-obvious-to-ignore example. Another problem for me is that Hollywood seems to be swept by waves of “groupthink” that are worse than any Maoist re-education campaign. Hollywood suddenly decides that all white men are villains, or hapless idiots who need to be saved by powerful women. All black people are soulful saints. I doubt black actors enjoy that - the villains are often the juiciest roles. It’s just lazy writing and leads to movies that are unwatchable because you know how the plot with repetitive characters will play out by the first 10 minutes. You were smart to bring up the trans issue. I think trans people should be left alone to live their lives in undiscriminated fashion. But trans activists tend to be zealots who will brook no disagreement with any of their positions, no matter how extreme, and they keep moving the window on what is acceptable to them. And let’s follow the logic. If anyone can identify as a woman, does that mean anyone can identify as any race? I’m actually okay with that; this is America, be whatever you want. But should a white kid who identifies as black be granted a scholarship meant for black students? That would probably rub a lot of people the wrong way. The social justice warriors have opened a Pandora’s Box of Unintended Consequences. Or there would be consequences if they were self-aware enough to consider them.

[@MrS-pe6sd]

It might help the crowd that doesn’t understand the problem with this Cleopatra to offer them a movie synopsis about Martin Luther King Jr. where he’s played by a Asian man.

[@Tarquin2718]

Orwell history quote thanks for that. I never really comprehended that until now.

[@fortunateson101]

Loved this take, thanks.

[@graysonhill]

It's simpler than that. "Ran" is Kurosawa's retelling of King Lear. He doesn't call it King Lear. He doesn't set it in 8 century Britain. He sets it in Edo Period Japan. And, it's full of Japanese people, as one would have it. Echo is being too kind. The point of this stuff IS destruction. It is Orwellian annihilation and you shouldn't give it one minute of viewing.

[@deefsound]

The thought that occurs frequently in regard to the unrelenting woke incursion on everything cultural is: This is exhausting.

[@drakemiller2267]

I always just imagine how ridiculous it would be to make a movie about Shaka Zulu and to just randomly sprinkle non-black ethnicities into the Zulu Kingdom and compare that to what we’re doing today.

[@maszkalman3676]

Not jsut random people change every positive character to white especially the main ones and al the opressor/evil ones changed to black and see their mind explode but this is what they do....

[@bobbyschannel349]

What you have, you play Native American you play Mexican you played black people in blackface history that's true there is no other group that race swapped more than white people

[@Vesnicie]

Lived experience is crucial in reality, less so in art. What is the point of art if not to take the imaginative and empathetic leap into another's world?

[@honnebombll]

I hope this "Docu" at least mentions that Cleopatra murdered her sister, but i highly doubt it.

[@covingtonrace1]

Oh yeah. Jada pinket smith, that well know producer of high quality entertainment

[@DeAngryDan]

Why does "present day" mean "black female lesbian" ?

[@Matador824]

If this was not a documentary I think barley anyone would be mad but by making a documentary they presenting everything on the show as fact and that is why the desition to cast a black actress was a bad idea

[@Egyptologist777]

"re-imagining" historical figures is a means for ideologues to falsify historical accounts.

[@eladllessur]

I felt that a lot of the other anti-queen Cleopatra videos were done purely out of anti blackness. Sniping remarks, racially tinge commentary, but this perspective is actually enlightening. I can appreciate it versus the whiny types or the I'm not racist but...types. Job well done

[@timkinss]

The theory of impressionism is too generous. It's clearly elite narcissists deciding the story of the oldest celebrity who has ever lived must be about them. The ultimate Marie Antoinetting (I now patent this term.)

[@ChaosAndFractals]

4:48 you've hit the nail on the head.

[@boiledliddo]

it's correct that Netflix was sued for this dastardly attempt to rewrite history.

[@voulafisentzidis8830]

Why do people expect Jada to get the definition of 'documentary' accurately when she doesn't know the difference between an entanglement and an affair?

[@JoJoJoker]

Progressive: the belief that the last has no influence upon the future. Liberal: the belief that individuals are capable of making the best choices for themselves.

[@Ilyb.444]

Well put.

[@zhouenlai2569]

Interestingly, this is only ever present in US or European cinema/TV productions. I have never seen a Japanese, Korean or Chinese movie do that. Ever. I mean - can you imagine a Japanese movie about, well, Oda Nobunaga, with Oda himself an half his Samurai being black and the other half being Arabs or Chechens? An absurd, propesterous notion. There were both European (Portugese) and black (their slaves) ppl. in Japan at that time, but the Japanse were, well - Japanese. Black Ann Boleyn is equally proposterous, as is black Cleopatra.

[@InterSpaceResearch]

great video

[@dragonback6075]

They've opened a door here, one that can swing both ways. I for one am really looking forward to seeing Harrison Ford playing Dr Martin Luther King in his next film.

[@dragonback6075]

Posted while watching ☝️ Echo put it much better than I did 👍

[@theunwantedcritic]

I didn’t see the documentary. I know that historically Cleopatra Ptolemy was very Greek, but I don’t know exactly what the Greeks looked like back then, so the only thing we can do is look at the artwork that was produced at the time. Looking at Cleopatra Ptolemy as depicted in the coins with her profile the only thing we know about her is that she had a really big nose that was kind of hooked. There’s no way to tell what her skin color was like. It’s funny the Egyptian’s weren’t in outrage when Elizabeth Taylor depicted Cleopatra has a British woman. They were in an outrage when it was revealed that Gal Gadot and Israeli woman would be playing the character in an upcoming movie. and I don’t think they’re outraged they make a movie called gods of Egypt and it’s stars an entirely European cast.

[@ramons8908]

Lot of this seems to come from the corporatization of the entertainment industry. I remember watching one of these filler shows Netflix or Amazon created where it was set in the time of Holmes, where they just put a young black man in with a modern African-American style hairdo, mainly to stand around in the background in Victorian England. Seen a similar thing going on in the show Lost Girl and then the case we all know, Disney star wars sequels, John Boyega even worked out that this is what they were doing to him. There's a very long list of movies where black actors have done very well in the past, where they didn't get stuck in random places where they don't belong because of corporate hiring quotas.

[@SlipdeGarcondeJour]

Logically argued, as ever.

[@johnkirk8338]

Excellently said

[@Yattayatta]

I believe that for any work, be it fiction or historical, if your goal is a serious tone, you need to consider how reality there would look. Take Rings of power for example, I take umbrage with how the Harfoots are depicted. It's not that I mind that they are people of color, it's that for any type of immersion to happen, you need to believe what you see, and a wandering tribe of 50-60 people would be mono ethnical within 3 generations, if that turns out to be dark skinned, white or otherwise, I do not care, but I simply get taken out of the story when I see such idiocy. An example of where it works very well on the other hand is in the Matrix, the people woken up come from every corner of the world, and it would be very strange if they were simply white Asian or black. I think every setting needs it's own consideration, if you are making a serious fantasy movie, stay close to medieval history, if you are making a documentary, stay close to history, if you are making a light hearted movie, go for it, mix it up. I would much rather we explored Asian and African culture and myths than have token character of Asian and African descent where they do not historically belong. There are wonderful tales and mysteries from Africa and the far East, make use of them, and do them justice.

[@minasamir3432]

All the love to you from Egypt ❤❤❤❤

[@John-rn1nm]

This is why I stopped watching period dramas, at least western ones. The Korean ones are still good. These are the people that drain the charm and mystery away.

[@OwO377]

There a reason people mainly female love Korean drama. I did watch some Korea drama for me honestly it not that bad just average. For everyone enjoyed what is drama then good for your like literally mean it cuz Korean drama is what a drama should do.

[@jonathanwaters2624]

Why didn't you point out Sigourney Weaver playing Queen Tayu.

[@gavriloprincip11]

...also a movie where Robert DeNiro should play Steven Biko and Joe Pesci as Nelson Mandela!

[@bobbyschannel349]

No we've already had history of white people playing black and brown people. Native American Mexican tiny Japanese Arabs black people now it is our turn to return the favor for what you have done over the past 100 Years of Hollywood history😊

[@csabaszep8162]

Honestly, there is nothing wrong with re-imagining history as long as we're clearly stating that it's for some artistic purpose and not meant to be anywhere near authentic. I also don't mind if a good actor gets a shot at playing a role. The idea that a role can be played only by an actor of the same gender, race, disability, etc... is the antithesis of being an actor. You're meant to be able to "play a role" and present it to the audience. This isn't true for something meant to be a documentary, where I do expect a certain level of authenticity.

[@2345434a]

I think there’s a difference between casting of a black woman to play Cleopatra vs. the whole Bridgerton mess even if the motive behind doing so is similar. According to what I’ve read (on Wikipedia so if there are any classicists on here feel free to correct me lol) the Ptolemies allowed native Egyptians and others to risk in the ranks of the local bureaucracy if they Hellenized. Therefore, it’s reasonable to believe that while Cleopatra’s pedigree would have been important, her ethnicity per se wouldn’t have been. It would be different if a black woman were playing a Confederate general or something. I watched the docuseries in question and they didn’t pretend the Ptolemies weren’t Greek, but pointed out that her mother’s identity was unknown. That was as far as it went. So basically - they tossed out the admittedly improbable theory that Cleopatra’s mother was Nubian or something and left it at that. Not likely but within the realm of possibility and having a black actress play Cleopatra otherwise didn’t mess with the story being told. Indian and Black Victorian English aristocracy is an entirely different matter.

[@SalAvenueNJ]

What show was that "Writers Room" video from ?

[@sirg-had8821]

George Orwell wrote an entire novel about the evils of re-writing history.

[@elr.4780]

Cleopatra was of the Ptolemy line of Greeks from Macedonia. Founded by Ptolemy, a general in Alexanders the great's army. She was greek not black. That's like portraying the general Hannibal of Carthage as a subsaharan black. He was carthaginian whose origins are from Phoenicia, not subsaharan africa. Let's see if they make the Duke of Wellington (Britain) a black man.

[@IwashereJay]

Well said! An aspect I don't really understand among all this, is that be it history or art, everything gets currently 'reimagined'. What I rarely see are any new approaches. Why reimagine Peter Pan or Cleopatra or Victorian England? Why not focus on telling the fairy tales and actual history of African countries or of India etc. Putting black actors in white stories is a disrespect to both imo. 'This history is way too white but that history is not exciting or interesting enough to justify being told at all' seems to be the jist of it.

[@TheBigdutchster]

Well said.