Ep. 23: Fine Tuner Matters

[@guilhermemonteiro8634]

"The fewer fine tuners your violin has, the better it sounds". This precious advice -- which I should have known about a long time ago -- greatly changed the sound of my violins for the better. Even my beginner's violin, which had 4 fine tuners on it before, now sounds like a much more expensive instrument, after I left only the fine tuner on the E string. I wasn't happy with the sound of my violins and I didn't realize I was playing on muffled instruments for years. Now their sound is more open, louder and richer. Thank you!

[@deanherbig9178]

I saw this and removed my fine tuners from the JBL and wow that thing woke up . thanks

[@EdgarRuss]

Now as you hear your real potential of your violin you can decide what is next to keep it sounding that way. glad that you share your result ere with all my other friends as a testimonial. Testimonials is what I love. Thanks ER

[@RockStarOscarStern634]

​@@EdgarRuss I always want a 5 String Cello so I got one that I equipped w/ Geared Pegs:kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqW6oYKPbJuEfNE & they're pegs w/ fine tuners build into them.

[@roume.3304]

@@RockStarOscarStern634 What the fuck.

[@milathecat5454]

@@roume.3304 whats wrong?

[@sochalant8056]

@@RockStarOscarStern634 wait, is that even legal?

[@gracieayers8706]

I like all the random violins just laying around in the background

[@RockStar85674]

Thank you so much for this theme! In my school all my teacher's don't cares about tallpeaces and im playing for all my life with chinese metall(!) tallpeace with 4 long fine tuners.

[@johngeddes7894]

I have a violin all set up with a pernambuco tail piece, a kevlar tail cord, and a mini fine tuner for the E string. Without getting muddy, it gives the G string a real growl but not too much. Really nice spread string to string. This violin is really set up for success. The 2nd one with a pernambuco tail piece. I love them. They out perform all other woods that I’ve tried.

[@reinhardkoster7863]

Hello Mr. Russ! What do you think about geared fine-tuner pegs? You didn't mention them at all, does that mean they are absolutely not advisable? And if so - for what reason(s)?

[@samuelbahoya91]

Wow thank you sir. Clear explanations.

[@smf75310]

Thank you.

[@jerrydavis1475]

Thanks maestro Russ for your enlightening videos. I use boxwood tailpieces with titanium tuners and kevlar tailgut . The best results I found so far

[@nraelserutluc8669]

Thank you, Mr. Russ, the information conveyed was interesting, very comprehensive, and very well-paced, throughout, where I could follow along.

[@artembaguinski9946]

if you rearrange the first four letters in EDGAr's name like so: GDAE you get a standard violin tuning. Coincidence?

[@EdgarRuss]

Thats very kind of you! I didn't notice it. Seems magic! very likely it's not a coincidence! and finally we know why I am such great violinmaker! 😂 all the best from Cremona Edgar

[@zoltipapa]

What is your opinion about the wittner pegs in terms of influencing the sound?

[@eduardo.enrique]

great video as always, you have the better Chanel that I have seen about violins, thanks for share your knowledge with us.... blessings!

[@EdgarRuss]

Thank you very much for your kindness! 😊

[@liomatsu1931]

Thank you! Very helpful video.

[@EdgarRuss]

Lio Matsu welcome! I am glad you like it!

[@mellissadalby1402]

I put an Otto low mass fine tuning tailpiece on my student violin and it really woke up the instrument. I didn't realize how much the 4 fine tuners on a wooden tailpiece dampen the violin. The Otto low mass fine tuning tailpiece (at less than 12 grams) actually weighs less than many wooden tailpieces.

[@qutubhashmi1656]

Excellent video. Thanks.

[@EdgarRuss]

Thank you so much! ER

[@petrrohlik4316]

Is it always like that? I mean the lighter the better, or is there some kind of weight border you shouldn't cross? Thanks for your videos, it's really nice from you to share you experiences! :)

[@masterchief586]

I personally use Wittner geard pegs on my violin. What are your thoughts Edgar? I would love to know.

[@pandathornbangyeekhun6607]

Wow Your speech is very good.

[@EdgarRuss]

Thanks!! Have a nice day :)

[@karmenov]

Bravo Edgar.All your info are great.Thanks !!!

[@ozgundemirr]

I'm hoping youll make videos about composite mechanical pegs and staining boxwood pegs.

[@EdgarRuss]

Staining boxwood isn't that spectacular. Purchase water based stain from Dick. (article number 451373 called Wasserbeize, Beize 427, buchsbaum). and ready to go. have fun ER

[@Ti_Ti_ta]

I've always preferred the composite tailpiece with integrated tuners. Lower weight, all 4 strings get correct string length.

[@BadChizzle]

Wonderful

[@simonecamplani2430]

finally a smart man. there are some pegs like kniling and perfection planetary, that look absolutely traditional and are installed with a normal reamer, do you know them, and if, what do you think about them?

[@EdgarRuss]

Yes I know them, but I installed them only once for a customer of mine. impressive how nice tunic becomes with them. No fine tuners are needed anymore. Easy tuning for all four strings just from the peg. yes even the E string. In Europe they are made by Wittner from Germany and aren't very sexy looking. So I wouldn't recommend them on a Strad or on one of my violins. 😇 Years ago I met the Pegheads. they had a system you can fit to traditional wood pegs. That was great looking combined with easy tuning. But I am not able to tell you about the sound Impact. Sorry Do you have some experience regarding those? all the best ER

[@H0ldUp]

@@EdgarRuss should I take off my finetuner for my cello

[@EdgarRuss]

@@H0ldUp Certainly if you would take them off your cello would sound more open and free. Maybe you install a tailpiece with integrated fine tuners or you get precision pegs installed. all the best and let us know your result and impression ER

[@H0ldUp]

@@EdgarRuss ok thanks

[@tatianachentsova]

@@EdgarRuss Thank you for your comment! We are going to try peg heads on my violin with worn out peg holes which are the individually made Knillings or Knillings are a standard sized peg heds. We will try it with a carbon fiber tailpiece (concarbo). When everything arrives I will share the result with you. Peg heads have a Facebook group.

[@smereuben]

@Edgar Russ Distinguished Violinmaker What are your thoughts on the “Harp Style Tailpiece”?

[@BigCarmine]

What about installing Wittner geared tuning pegs and not using any fine tuners on the tail piece?

[@EdgarRuss]

That's actually what customers ask more and more frequently. But there is still a certain refuse to that by most musicians, since if you learn one how to tune you don't realize how easy it could be to tune and how much more sound you obtain.

[@bennyblanko3]

I bought one of your workshop fiddles - sounds great by the way - and the shop put those, I think Whitner? pegs ... at first I was "what the hell is this" as you have to turn so much to get a little change in pitch. Now that I'm used to it, I actually like them. Actually I think they are the "perfection" pegs. The shop also changed your bridge ... but, I wish I had the original, as he put the string spacing a little far, and a little higher - it is a cool bridge, but I wish I had the original, as I'll bet it was better, and sounds better.

[@ozgundemirr]

Hello Edgar, what do you think about mechanical fine tuning pegs, like wittners? Some say they alter the tone, but they are very practical for fine tuning, plus one no longer needs fine tuners on the tailpiece. Also have you had any experinece with titanium parts? Like titanium tailpieces and endbuttons? Maybe you can make a video about this.

[@rexdparrish3169]

Mr Edgar, hello from North Carolina US. Iam in need of a new tailpiece after watching you discussions. I have search the internet but cannot find out how a tailpiece is measured, from the very end to end, or from the elbony strip to other end. Also the two brand names you mention, can't quiet understand. Thanks.

[@J-H585]

thanks for the video. i would like to know how to install the fin tuner on the tailpiece. thanks

[@EdgarRuss]

Thank you for the advice! I will add also this topic to my list. All the best

[@RAkers-tu1ey]

OOPS, I just read all of the comments, and you already answered this. Thank You.

[@ozgundemirr]

there are also new titanium hill type tuners weighing as little as 0,95 grams novadays.

[@EdgarRuss]

correct! but there are many different ones. Just stay away from those which are made out of one piece, because they will break sooner or later. And it is not a nice experience if that beaks during your playing. ER

[@fahmimegdiche2949]

I did remove the 3 extra fine tuners from my violin today, they are 15 grams in total, but while the G and D strings become more open and loud, the A and E seem to have lost their power! Any idea?

[@caleusouza3163]

Mr. Russ, what about those Stradpet titanium built-in finetuners? They weight only 1gram. Great content, salutes from Brazil 🙏🏻🇧🇷

[@podamis314]

Thank you for this nicely produced work and I appreciate your good humor. Does it help the sound if the center of gravity of the tailpiece and the tuners is at any particular point between the bridge and the saddle?

[@EdgarRuss]

Good question. I have never thought about it. Now I start thinking....... all the best ER

[@bomaite1]

OK, so the weight is important for tailpieces. But what about the resonance quality? We select wood for that aspect in the main body of the instument, but the tailpiece might be made of many different woods, aluminum, carbon fiber or composite. Is it then only weight that is important here?

[@ozgundemirr]

we could say the lighter the tailpiece the easier it will vibrate, thus violin would have better response time and openness to the sound. But the type of material effects much more the tonality of the sound rather than its technical structure. In theory a light and acoustically preferred type of wood would be the best combination but its hard to be precise. Since there are so many variables on the sound and there are tons of acoustical analyses need to be made. Its not hard to make tests with different tailpieces, one can change its own to taste the differences between materials. But as Edgar said the thing we can be certain is less tuner is better. Tuners act like mute on a bridge, plus they are bad for exact intonation.

[@EdgarRuss]

Of course the material has an impact as well. I just try to do one thing by another. The material factor is rather difficult to demonstrate since one violin sound always different to another. I will keep your consideration in mind as well. all the best ER

[@DivaDeb1234]

Would you use geared pegs on fine expensive violin

[@_nahnahnah9207]

What are some tips to getting used to tuning with pegs?

[@EdgarRuss]

The best advice is to keep tuning every day! believe me there is no better way to get used to it and to have good pegs which tune well. and some Tuning Paste from Hill&Sons. amzn.to/2lGC61f ER

[@Bloor005]

I have a dirt cheap violin that I like as it reminds me of God Speed the band. Its got fine tuners but if I use them it throws all the other strings out of pitch. Is this normal? Or a fault with the naff tuners installed? I can get within a semitone of the right note with the tuning pegs but they stick when turning..am I supposed to pull the peg out slightly to turn? I could never find any info on this. Cheers and interesting video.

[@parism555]

I know that I am seeing this video late but...... I use tailpieces with fine tuners built in for most of my instruments; my small 14 7/8" French viola (1810) [custom made carbon fiber by Kenneth Kuo/ atonal tailpiece -- I think that he is not making the four fine tuner version because its not that popular for violin and viola. When I had mines done, he had only made one other for Eugene Drucker], modern 16" Italian viola (1957) [the bois d harmonie], and my Austrian violin (1745) [the bois d harmonie] . This is because I am usually playing LOTS of chamber music and being able to tune with minor adjustments saves time, energy, and provides me to be really in-tune. Though, on my other violin, the 1842, I have a ConCarbo by Georg Sch. carbon fiber tailpiece with only one fine tuner. And this is something I would like to change but --- it just sounds amazing so.... I'm not going to mess with it. I really wished that it had 4 fine tuners though lol

[@ghlscitel6714]

"West Germany" Charming comment.

[@sadhbhdelahunt]

Better than replacing a purchase after one day of use and crapping out. So over cheap imports, wastes my time.

[@eugenievanzyl]

Thank you, Edgar for this advice! I got a new (70yrs old) violin today with just the one fine tuner but my, oh my, but it is enormous contraption. I wonder why??

[@trevorstolz8580]

Do you have an opinion on geared pegs? I use Perfection Pegs with a 4:1 gear ration. Wittner makes pegs with an 8:1 gear ration. I used them on an older violin but they are "notchy" rather smooth turning action. I like the Perfection Pegs better. Violinists more professional than me seem suprised by them, but I don't need any fine tuners, not even on the E-string. Any extra weight is thus in the pegbox, not near the body of the violin. I also use a "harp" shaped tail piece. Both my tail piece and the chin rest are boxwood. I think my violin sounds noticeably better with geared pegs, harp shaped tail piece made of boxwood and a boxwood chin rest. Penny for your thoughts?

[@k98killer]

Just now saw this video and immediately removed the three lowest fine tuners. I'm flabbergasted and enthralled by the difference.

[@EdgarRuss]

That makes me happy. All the best from Cremona Edgar

[@k98killer]

@@EdgarRuss one additional note about the difference is that the string tension is lower, making it more comfortable to play those strings. It is quite an upgrade.

[@amindaou5711]

Hi if I want brighten up my violin sound. Which tail piece do you advise me to use wood or metal . My violin has rose wood tail piece. But it's dark sound especially on G And D strings. Thanks

[@EdgarRuss]

Ebony tailpiece and ebony chinrest

[@amindaou5711]

@@EdgarRuss i will the ebony ones 👍 thank you

[@rjlchristie]

Have you considered that energy spent (lost) in vibrating the tailpiece is energy that isn't being transferred through the bridge to the top and soundpost? If the tie point of the string was 100% rigid and unmovable (creating a permanent nodal point and with infinite mass and zero dampening factor) then the string's sustain would necessarily increase and more energy would be transferred to the bridge.

[@WilliamJohnston]

Perhaps that would let the string vibrate freely, but what about the the top? Surely all that extra weight weighing the top down would stop it from vibrating?

[@rjlchristie]

@@WilliamJohnston I suspect that any extra downward (towards top) 'weight' is negligible in comparison to the component of force in same direction generated by the quiescent string tension over the bridge. Yet at the same time I hypothesise that any increase the inertia of the tie points and tail piece makes more energy available to the vibrating components of the system. I'm not a mechanical physicist, just thinking out loud from first principles.

[@sadhbhdelahunt]

I find the less interference in the wood the better the sound from string vibration only.

[@lifeplan4720]

Thanks a lot Edgar, v informative! Do you also have thoughts on the common tailpiece for cellos, in terms of materials and the new inclined (longer on C and shorter on A), hollow ones? :)

[@kenhuang3820]

What do you think of stradpet tailpiece made of titanium it says 13.1g (Weight with Titanium Tailgut) and one fine tuner on the E string is that okay weight ?

[@aetre1988]

Took my fine tuners down from 4 to just the E string. I'll say, yes, I notice a difference in projection; although for some reason, I notice it a lot more on the A and D strings than on the G. Not sure why that would be the case. Maybe the bass bar isn't as affected by the presence of fine tuners? Not sure.

[@lounakin]

Did you have to get fine tuning pegs instead of the old pegs?

[@naecarol.1988]

All info are true.

[@707-n8h]

I broke one of the tuners when I first got my violin idk what to do is it important is it something I should worry about it’s only one

[@pauljack7170]

hi. in your violine u have a tail piece. japanese style ( ^ roof shaped ) i just bought the same because i visually prefer it ! why do u use it ? the string tensors are in plastic i prefer metal ones do they make a difference in sound ? thanks Jack

[@EdgarRuss]

I use the “roof shaped” tailpiece because I like the look as you do! The plastic you talk about is made out of nylon. It makes the sound softer! Metal makes it focused Kevlar makes it more open

[@pauljack7170]

@@EdgarRuss thanks Edgar for the info ! 🍀❤️

[@rayguzman.]

I have a question, if i change the tailpiece for a lighter one it could change the sound to a brighter sound, or it just affect to the projection?, i have a violin a little unbalanced, too dark in G and D strings, and bright in A and E strings, i changed the ebony tailpiece to another one from a chinese violin (i don't know what kind of wood is it), the violin got a more open sound, but its still unbalanced.

[@EdgarRuss]

Ray Guzmán your unbalanced sound very likely can be adjusted moving the soundpost away from the bridge, and also a little more towards the f-hole. Changing the fine tuner/ or tailpiece to a lighter makes it more open. Increases the general sound. ER

[@infinitepawer]

@@EdgarRuss Hi do you mean if G & D sound a bit dull vs brighter A & E then we need to shorten the sound post to make them sound balance?? Thanks first

[@arijitdey2574]

Which peg is best, ebony,rosewood or boxwood for good violin?

[@RAkers-tu1ey]

Very Interesting, and quite logical when considered carefully. The bulk of my experience is with guitars, which obviously do not need fine tuners. Isn't there some way to achieve this kind of precision tuning at the nut? Maybe precision geared pegs? Is this a technical problem, or is it a matter of tradition? Thank You for your work!

[@psycomutt]

Geared pegs exist, and they work very well.

[@splatoonclippyboi3332]

Thanks I put violin stuff on there and the fine tuner was yes and the finer tune was yes violin stuff violin nerdy stuff

[@milena6009]

How do I tune without finetuner?

[@antonioperotti937]

Nidalee with the pegs but you have to do it very carefully or the string can breaks!

[@EdgarRuss]

Good turning pegs should be able to do so. But certainly the eString is pretty hard anyway. so try to squezze a little with your finger on the string in the pegbox... Let me know. ER

[@liamderosa2157]

but if you have built in fine tuners, it still sounds good

[@EdgarRuss]

Yes, especially it is better build in than later screwed on ones. ER

[@krgzkml]

Why use one tuner fix matter only for E strings? Why not use for other strings ? I'm very curious about it.

[@tanavshankar5728]

People only use fine tuners for e strings because the e string is the thinnest and it is much easier to snap by using the pegs.

[@sadhbhdelahunt]

Thank you. Now I know why it's on the tuner is always sighted on the E string Edgar.

[@-vstraus-]

With the small fine tuner it makes so much sound difference on my strad

[@connerh492]

@Noob Nub he clearly means a strad copy asshole

[@nexcape]

rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.it%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F173306937042 위의 링크는 제가쓰고있는 테일피스인데, 4개의 파인튜너 내장형입니다. 이거는 무게는 좀더 나갈테지만 소리는 크게 변함없지 않을까 궁금하네요.

[@EdgarRuss]

☺️

[@laurencemarkmallak3076]

Hi, I was hoping you could help me. I bought a violin from a elderly man on craigslist that was his dads in the 1930's. Inside it says "Copy of Antonius Stradivarius" made in Czechoslovakia I no it is not a Stradivarius but the age is intriguing. I am a musician and have a recording studio in Waukesha, WI and I use mostly vintage equipment. I play guitars and many string instruments so I am always trying to use interesting instruments in interesting ways. I can tell it is vey old and the printing and font is an older style and faded. If you would like I can send you some detailed pictures so you may give me your assessment so I can determine the direction to go, because it needs a bridge and the tailpiece is missing the tail gut loop and I need a bow. I looked online for these parts and they will run between $40.00 or $50.00 and they also sell new violins for $50.00 on eBay but that would be a piece of crap and I would rather spend $50.00 on the parts and have a better vintage sounding violin, I'm sure the wood on this older violin would be superior to a $50.00 online violin. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

[@bennyblanko3]

Weight of fine tuners ... 3 grams. Weight of my fat chin hanging over the chin rest touching the tailpiece, 13 lbs give or take - heh heh. With no shoulder rest, shoulder blade on back plate, 5 lbs - killing about 1/3 of the tone. But, hey, it mellows out the reverb a bit!

[@danielmalter3373]

Made in “West Germany” sounds like you missed out on the last 32 years of history. You need to go outside more. :)

[@sadhbhdelahunt]

Quality workmanship ship. Quality as opposed to quantity.

[@luffy-lo6vy]

Why yr laying

[@BarnacleButtock]

You clearly don't understand that the heavier the instrument the more sustain and range it can produce. Look at Johan Segeborn's video of mounting a guitar string and tuner to a load-bearing steel beam

[@EdgarRuss]

Dear Annabelle, I think you are right in one way and wrong in an other. I agree that an instrument gets more sustain and would also have more "range" ( projection) if there is more material. But more material with top and back plates. But you can not achieve more sustain and projection by using heavy finetuners which block vibrations. Maybe on your violin? Let me know ER

[@SkepticalLlama]

It doesn't work that way for violins. With an electric guitar or a steel guitar, yes, because the string is vibrating over a magnetic pickup, not really "driving" the wood in any meaningful way. With a violin or other acoustic instrument, the strings needs to excite the air inside the violin, and the wood, and extra weight makes a huge difference. If it didn't, we could make fiddles out of solid wood, or hell, granite even I guess, with steel tailpieces and that string would definitely vibrate a long time, but would be almost soundless. Intuitively, it seems you'd be right, but that isn't how it works.

[@BarnacleButtock]

@@SkepticalLlama I dare you to look up resonator guitars or any acoustic guitar made out of steel/heavier materials. They always have great sustain and very deep rich frequency response.

[@BarnacleButtock]

@@SkepticalLlama also watch Johan Segeborn's video on using a pickup against the wooden body of the guitar to test microphonics and vibration.

[@emiltrans338]

surstain matters more on a guitar then on the violin, because the string hase to keep vibrating on its own on the guitar. the violin string is kept vibrating by the bow and therefor the surstain is less important. on accoustic guitars it is allso a tradeof between sustain and sound quality. a sting capeble of its full potential in sustain would have to be mounted on an imovable objet, ie not a very good guitar og violin.