Edge retention : ESEE, Ka-Bar, Spyderco, Cold Steel

Discussion thread with details and discussion :
- www.cliffstamp....

[@Careoran]

even today still very helpful video, thank you!

[@vinniesdayoff3968]

Absolutely superb video Cliff. You cut through a great deal of KZbin BS here. Pardon the pun 🙂

[@CliffStamp]

That's the goal.

[@joshuabriggs7114]

Miss you Cliff!

[@D00MTR33]

Great video Cliff, as always I learned something new from you which is why I love watching your videos. I wouldn't have imagined the difference would be that much(I was the closest one and i was still way off), this was a rwal eye opener for me, thanks Cliff. Anyone who thinks that getting the most wear resistant steel is how they get better edge retention needs to watch this video.

[@CliffStamp]

+D00MTR33 I may do a few more additions and add them to it, some knives can do far better than what people expect based on the geometry, an Opinel for example.

[@D00MTR33]

+Cliff Stamp Yes, im learning more and more that geometry and edge angle and finish affect wear resistance more than steel type. I picked up a nice GEC 71 in O1 steel and its ground pretty lean (under 0.010 id say) and I put on a 10 dps edge on it using the edge pro 400 grit stone and its a very nice cutter. I'm going to get some more cardboard and do some cutting with it to see how it performs. im really like nin stainless steels lately (or stainless that feel like carbon steels like N77 and sandvik steels) in my knives. I've been enjoying the knives I bought in O1, super blue, m4, 3v N77 and 13c26 quite alot, I can go to lower angles and get very good cutting ability because of that. It would be interesting to see where an Opinel, a douk douk and some other knives land in your testing.

[@CliffStamp]

Yes, I have most of mine loaned out but I think I am going to get one and add it and possibly do an update.

[@rustyshackleford17]

I hope knife makers start following what you're learning. Its a topic that is even more complicated than supersteels.

[@Nebulax123]

I certainly agree with that. Lately I have been taking the very edge to a 3000 grit belt edge which is almost polished right up to the apex but not on it and then doing the apex or microbevel with a 600 grit Norton, I like it because the grains size is quite consistent so I get repeatable results. With the polished portion backing the 600 grit edge it seems to be so far the longest lasting edges I have ever been able to get. Since I almost always do slicing or draw cuts over push cuts it really works well. Also since I don't raise a burr I don't have to worry about not removing it all or having weak areas. You can assume that I have inspected the edge for damage prior to sharpening and removed any damage first.

[@DutchBushcraftKnives]

how do you find the esee holds up in the field? I was deeply disappointed in my esee 4. the factory grind was unable to cut anything well and after sharpening it in the same angle as I do most blades in a slight convex it took edge problems like crazy. it was quite disappointing after seeing all these positive reviews and marketing of esee.

[@CliffStamp]

+Dutch Bushcraft Knives I am not sure what you mean by edge problems? Do you mean dulling and or damage?

[@DutchBushcraftKnives]

+Cliff Stamp Both. Mine took rolls very easy and dulled very fast when I was preparing feathersticks for my fire. Actually the fastest dulling knife I've had. it performed like 440A

[@CliffStamp]

+Dutch Bushcraft Knives How did you sharpen it? Have you sharpened it and tried it again since then?

[@DutchBushcraftKnives]

+Cliff Stamp I sharpened mine on Shapton chosera waterstones. I tried many angles from 25-40 degrees (combined angle degree of both sides) postimg.org/image/njhvw8efh/. It could be that mine had a bad heat treat. I don't have the knife anymore because it just wasn't the survival knife they profiled on their site not only in edge the edge retention aspect. I think it could be a camp knife but not a knife I would rely on when I get lost in the woods.It lacks some important aspects of a survival knife.

[@rustyshackleford17]

+Dutch Bushcraft Knives I've used an ESEE 3 for carving, it dulled quicker than a Mora, but ESEE's have a huge angle to them, but was also very easy to bring back. What kind of wood were you using it on?

[@paulie4x1]

Say Heah Cliff, A bit heavy for me, But watching this over and over, I pick up things that I haven't initially, Thanx.

[@CoffeeAndSteel]

Great video and excellent explanation. I should have thought more on the percentages as I knew the performance would be higher, but didn't expect it to jump that much. However your discussion really showed how much geometry can improve cutting performance all things else being equal.

[@CliffStamp]

+Caffeine Junkie And edge retention, the angle is critical there. I should clarify I am talking about slicing, the effect is not nearly as large in push cutting.

[@JDStone20]

Wow, very interesting. My first thought was that the Cold Steel would be through the roof comparing it to the others, but that's a huge difference that you measured.

[@CliffStamp]

+Yehoshua Jason D. Stone Just think that this isn't at the limit either, you can easily bring the edge down to 6 to 8 dps and run a more coarse apex bevel which will make the same type of difference happen again.

[@JDStone20]

Cliff Stamp I didn't even think of that.

[@TheChris12590]

plz do more chopping vids. for some reason it is very satisfying to see big pieces of wood be turned to small pieces of wood

[@micktheweld]

nicely explained Cliff. I thinned a busse out once, don't know the exact angle but it was fairly thin...chopped into discarded wood hit a hidden nail..2mm dink. I can't bring myself to thin out anything I'm liable to chop with again.

[@CliffStamp]

+mick of south staffs That is the practical counter issue. There is a loss of strength and durability as the cross section is reduced.

[@rustyshackleford17]

+mick of south staffs That's always been the secret with Busse's. His geometry works with his steel

[@fervensmortis]

an interesting knife challenge would be to show your edge retention chat with three knives on it with the names blacked out. then give three knives with spec's. see if people can figure out where they belong. you can do something similar with getting speeds of different stone for a specific knife.

[@CliffStamp]

+fervens That would be interesting, I can adjust the angle and steel to make it a little challenging.

[@CoonassJedi]

Glad you are enjoying that Vagabond Cliff. I don't know why I didn't like since it isn't really an objectively bad knife, it was just funky feeling to me.

[@CliffStamp]

+Kevin Oubre The main ergonomic issue I have is the little flaps that prevent the guard from going up into the handle. You can feel them scrape against your grip, they should be better contoured into the handle itself.

[@clapton924]

Did I hear you say that a coarse edge will hold an edge longer than a polished edge?

[@CliffStamp]

+clapton924 For slicing soft materials yes.

[@jarlanarch7801]

+Cliff Stamp Really? o.o

[@CliffStamp]

+Jarl Anarch Yes.

[@rustyshackleford17]

+Cliff Stamp Is like the toothy D2's saw action on flesh?

[@CliffStamp]

+Rusty Shackleford Yes.

[@Prometheus1111]

i have noticed that thinly ground knives go through material with more ease but, i have not found the edge retention to go up in them. my zdp 189 endura when it was sabre ground seemed to hold an edge just about the same as it does now that it has been ffg'd by jeremy. i always hear how it is one of the best edge retaining steels out of the steels i have but, i haven't found that to be true even when compared to my dpx hest in sleipner which cut twice as much cardboard as the zdp189 did and i found that to be true many times over and its blade is 5mm thick. i thought the zdp189 held an excellent edge from when i first bought it but, once i had sharpened it a few times, the edge retention seemed to decrease as i have noticed with many knives. i have to wonder if the hardness isn't consistent through the blade, at least that is the only guess i could make to explain how that effect seems plausible. i can get them all screaming sharp but, it doesn't hold like it originally did earlier on. also, when i say edge retention i mean its ability to maintain an edge that will shave my arm hair cleanly and without much force. i believe that the wedging effect causes tension in the material to be cut after the initial entry into said media and allows the apex to cut it more easily like cutting a taught rope vs a limp one. that makes sense to me, the way you explain it seems plausible enough but, i'm not entirely convinced that the opposite isn't true.

[@CliffStamp]

+knives save lives It isn't the gross blade thickness that makes the most difference but the edge angle itself. It is of course only one factor, there are others. The 10V blade for example had similar edge retention to the Vagabond even though the Vagabond had a much lower edge angle, but you have to look at all factors.

[@Prometheus1111]

+Cliff Stamp after having pondered your answer and the subject i realize the stupidity of my previous statement. i actually knew that but, somehow forgot that that is a pretty fundamental thing as i had previously tested cpm-m4 at different edge angles and found the 17 degree inclusive edge dulled way faster than the 20 degree inclusive as the edge degraded rapidly the more thin the edge was ground. sorry if i seemed argumentative.

[@kylebettleyon447]

Is anything linear with knives? I often seem a theme where performance is progressive and balance is the real key.

[@CliffStamp]

+kyle bettleyon Lots of things, almost everything is linear on very small scales. Impact energy is linear with the rotational moment for example up until the point the user can't rotate the blade any more (lack of strength).

[@felixh2786]

How would the deeper and higher primary grind influence edge retention if you're only meassuring sharpness, but not cutting ablility? Since sharpness is almost exclusively determined by apex thickness, doesn't it's degredation mainly depend on the angle of the apex bevel (and secondary bevel once the apex is worn away) ?

[@CliffStamp]

+Felix H The reduce the forces around the apex during the cutting which lowers the rate of blunting. The simplest way to understand it is to think what happens if the blade grind is really heavy. The knife will be very difficult to push through the cardboard which means more twisting of the knife and more compression of the cardboard, both factors make it harder on the apex doing the cutting.

[@felixh2786]

+Cliff Stamp So the apex itself is indirectly weakened through a heavier grind! That's interesting.

[@CliffStamp]

I never thought of it that way, but yes, nice insight.

[@cosmikvratch]

nice speach. One advice, though: stop singing while brushing your teeth! Your shirt will have less toothpaste on it.

[@SpartanJohns]

i watched this again because I want to test 2 knives or different steels and thicknesses of the edge

[@mathewrculbertson]

Great video!

[@CliffStamp]

+Mathew Culbertson Thanks. Those were some really nice work you did on the CS scales with the Rustoleum products.

[@brandensutton2324]

Which spyderco is that?

[@lodewijkbergkotte260]

The Spyderco vagabond 🙂

[@brandensutton2324]

​@@lodewijkbergkotte260One year later u pulled through 😂 thanks

[@lodewijkbergkotte260]

@@brandensutton2324 i just saw the video now...

[@lodewijkbergkotte260]

I was asking the same question, then i heard him say "the vagabond"...

[@deanobenito]

Really are missing ya videos cliff. deano

[@CliffStamp]

+deano benito Thanks, being busy lately, should relax the summer.

[@deanobenito]

Glad to hear your ok, hopefully see you in the summer then.

[@CamberLucyBella]

Hey Zues! Color me surprised for sure!

[@CliffStamp]

+C amber Edge angle is a powerful influence, in most comparisons that is often what people are seeing, not the steel.

[@CamberLucyBella]

+Cliff Stamp No doubt. That an often times it seems the edge thickness is drastically difference. Appreciate the video.

[@CliffStamp]

+C amber It depends on what you are cutting, but even on highly binding materials the influence of edge thickness is fairly small. Just consider that the edge thickness on a standard Mora is ~0.1" . If you compare that to a really thin edged knife at say ~0.005" the ratio is 20:1 however is the cutting ability anywhere close to 20:1 ? If you do carving with a standard Mora and a 0.005" one, you can get about 2:1 maybe 3:1 at an extreme. This means you are looking at an effect which scales by approximately a cube root effect. In contrast the edge angle has an influence which scales as a square effect. In short, get the angle optimized first, then the edge thickness for cutting ability/edge retention. Of course for ease of sharpening the edge thickness is really important because it controls the edge width (at a given angle) and that radically influences speed of sharpening. A 0.005" edge on a 10V blade will sharpen much faster than a 1/2" bevel on a typical Mora.

[@CamberLucyBella]

+Cliff Stamp I appreciate that clarification. I guess I was just thinking 2 to 1 is pretty big, although of course no where near as big as you the edge angle effect as you note. I guess it makes sense as I have some blades with relatively low edge angles that have surprised me with how well they cut given their edge thickness.

[@CliffStamp]

+C amber Two to one is a big change, but look at it in terms of the percentage change and then think about what it means when an edge thickness change from 0.035" to say 0.015" .