EDH is Dead, Long Live Commander

[@33elk]

I HOPE YOU LIKE YOUR NEW LGS!!!!! Glad your move went well. Excited for the podcast on Tuesday, synthesizing my notes from my audience's opinions and my own for it rn.

[@RibusPQR]

"If a real diamond is not considered a suitable investment, then Mox Diamond isn't either." I agree with everything you said here.

[@Cepaceous]

EDH turned into Commander as soon as Wizards started printing the entire game plan directly in the Command Zone.

[@damonlouis6536]

yeah this "bracket system doesn't seem to take into account that nothing in the 99 warps your power level more than the general it self

[@Cepaceous]

@@damonlouis6536 I think the bracket system is promising tbh. It gives players a framework to discuss how strong their decks are, while putting the burden on players who are playing disproportionately strong cards. "My deck's a 2 except for Rhystic Study". Okay, why are you playing Rhystic? It also reduces the number of such surprises by putting players in a position where they've been lying if they drop something that's in a higher tier after the game has started. I would simply get up and leave if it turns out that somebody was lying about his deck, while before it was left up to interpretation if Crypt, Lotus, Dockside, Rhystic, Tithe, FoW are a "7" or not

[@temporaltomato3021]

​@Cepaceous I like this take, hadn't thought about it that way before. However, I still feel there are a couple of issues. One being that a constant deluge of new, powerful cards will make a fair card rating system practically impossible. And the second being that old, powerful cards that are widely accessible (Sol Ring in particular) should in theory be considered high-tier, and yet almost all decks run them.

[@Cepaceous]

@@temporaltomato3021 agreed on the first point. On the second one, Sol Ring is a tier 0 card because it's just not fixable. I think the lowest tier would be things that are already in precons, not necessarily a power level thing. Swords to Plowshares is one of the best removal spells, for example, but fits well enough into the format that people kind of shouldn't have an issue with it. The tier system is more of a "will they dislike this" scale than it is a measure of power

[@amphilochusofmallus5070]

Also, any rating system is subjective. I like the "my deck is built to win on turn X" or "it tends to get it's game plan online by turn X". That removes some of the subjectivity, at least

[@ZynikerV]

It's nice to have another video essayist remember the Pinkerton thing. I also find the point where Gavin or whoever might end up in charge *might* be trustworthy, but at the end of the day, they're emploees, and may be replaced later down the line

[@gnogara]

For Modern there was this sudden change that was really jarring. For 10 or so years, Bolt primarily followed by Path or Seize were the most played cards, and threats themselves were varied, usually could see a "this is what that old standard deck could do with these powerful pieces as support". And then suddenly it's One Ring, Orcs and Force of Negation. You either go 300 mph to be so fast a One Ring deck can't stop you, or you run One Ring yourself for the grind, with basically no in-between.

[@nosrin1988]

it's wild that modern now rotates more often than standard.

[@lunaeons45]

The issue is mostly phalge, pre phalge one ring was used but not nearly as heavily. If one ring were to say be banned the format would basically just become boros energy vs boros energy mirrors. As one ring allows slower decks to live turns when they otherwise wouldn't which gives other decks time to turn the corner against boros energy

[@benjaminguajardogallardo2036]

I play at my local lgs, where the banned fast mana pieces were uncommon but incredibly relevant when they impacted the table. I still remember talking with the rest of the table in the bus stop after the match, and they were salty as well from the busted mana ramp. The bans have only improved the atmosphere at the lgs, they're not a massive change, but a welcome one nonetheless. I have also seen nadu at my lgs, only once though since the guy that ran it got unceremoniously targeted in all the tables I saw and never brought it again.

[@DaroriDerEinzige]

Also; Rule 0 - I mean, it isn't like Hasbro's Security Team storms your house if you decide to allow banned cards. It's up for you and as mentioned in the video ... They are basically money printers for WotC. The only thing which is "problematic" is that now, after the ban, you basically have to allow proxies for the others if you wanna play a Mana Crypt.

[@brendans1983]

That salty conversation you had at the bus stop would have been much more constructive if you had it at the LGS, with the person that upset everyone. Or at least with the LGS owner, if your group does not want to speak with someone about something that has upset you all. The person that upset everyone might not even know they upset everyone, and now they will be ostracised for something they were potentially unaware of. Complaining behind someone's back will achieve nothing. Confronting an issue is the only way to implement change.

[@buddieschiknful]

​@@brendans1983magic players try to have a "complicated" social interaction challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

[@Kjos_jax]

The bands only destroyed financial value. Your group could have decided before the game to remove all your fast mana. That's what self-regulating is. So because you didn't do that and more people complained, it forced a ruling that affected hundreds of millions of people and made them all lose money. Your argument doesn't hold water

[@DaroriDerEinzige]

@@Kjos_jax Nah mate; its far harder to get proxies allowed or to "ban" a Card like mana Crypt on the table if two guys already paid 200+ Bucks for it, as if its banned and the two guys now have to say "Yeah ok you can proxy it whatever".

[@FruitMonstersTCG]

EDH has fallen. Billions must play commander.

[@xaeoxic7328]

There may be only people that actually understand this joke 😭

[@fasterbuilder11]

@@xaeoxic7328 I don't get it. What's the joke?

[@Spark-Gold]

​@@fasterbuilder11 it's quoting a manifesto where EDH replaces "the west" and "play commander" replaces "die"

[@Cynidecia]

EDHbros...

[@hyoroemongaming569]

​@@Cynideciapropaganda fam

[@MothCoveredRock]

Good takes, smart to not talk about brackets yet because we know next to nothing about them and even the stuff wizards said on stream will probably change a lot

[@DiabloTraeluz]

i think a lot of people miss that part of the reason why the RC banned crypt and lotus wasn't to get rid of fast start potential in the format, just to reduce the consistency, but also as a preemptive step in response to wizards printing more and more powerful 4, 5, and 6 mana commanders that not only offset the downsides of the tools used to cast them quickly but also come with more and more powerful protective effects attached to them. lowering the possibility of a turn 2 or 3 sauron the dark lord at the cost of cards most players don't have is a good decision, especially if the RC feels like these cards are leaking into lower power tables where they don't belong. i don't consider my playgroup especially competitive but i've been told in the past by people i play with that running a commander that's 7 or 8 mana is risky because it's too slow, and if that's the case, there's a problem with speed in the format. because where else do these cards belong?

[@toedrag-release]

Maybe but also fast mana was becoming more of an issue now that were getting more and more commanders with ward. Ever seen a turn 1 sauron? That should never be a thing.

[@DiabloTraeluz]

@@toedrag-release that's almost the exact situation i describe in the comment lol

[@toedrag-release]

@@DiabloTraeluz lol I literally skimmed that part of the comment my bad lol. I've literally seen a turn 1 sauron and it was like "so were all fcked right?" Nothing we could do. Granted they had the perfect hand but it's not had to get it out turn 2 or 3 when you got a lotus and a creature like sauron never should be coming out that early. Something had to be done and fast mana was the most logical choice and let's be real crypt was a 0cmc sol ring and theres an argument to be made to ban sol ring too. While the ban stung especially because I have crypt and lotus in my vilis deck which is 8cmc I totally get the ban. Yes its risky but when you play a commander with such a high cost you have to put in as much ramo as you can stuff into it. Cryot and lotus werent neded just welcomed. In fairness black has access to burst ramp than say mono white. Coffers, magus, nirkana ghast and whatnot.

[@Kjos_jax]

I agree that that was the reason why. I also think it wasn't necessary because self-regulating should have been on each individual player and their play group. If you're bully of a player will only stop playing fast mana because some group of 3 people on the RC said so... Than they were not a good person to begin with. I will remove any card from my deck that someone thinks he's oppressive, unfun or uninteresting.

[@DiabloTraeluz]

@@Kjos_jax that's cool for you and i agree, i'm not interested in playing strong, lopsided cards, but if the RC feels like self-selection isn't working, it's their job to take that next step, and they did feel like it wasn't working. you don't have to agree that every ban is good but this argument of "oh well you should just have that pregame discussion" falls flat when part of the ban reason is that it really wasn't working well enough.

[@thejadejedi]

These bans were great for the format…until the players got too salty about the bans. The bans were fine. In fact, they were good for the format.

[@keiharris332]

Why not split the format instead of alienating a group of people

[@blu6295]

Noone was alienated, the big walleted People Who Had the Money to buy one of those for all their Decks, are salty that their obscene amount of Money spent was deleted. I Kind of think they deserved that wizards Took over, now that they realised that their assholery actually has consequences now.

[@micboyyaboy2578]

I am actually very glad for the bans for the same reason that the power 9 are banned in commander. The RC said that they banned the power 9 because they were too expensive and people thought that they needed them in their decks to be able to make them better. It's the exact same situation with Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt today. You wanna make your deck better? Put fast mana in. Both of them are $100+ cards, so not everyone can afford that.

[@keiharris332]

You are aware a single piece of power 9 is thousands of dollars right? Not even remotely the same

[@Nephalem2002]

@@keiharris332it’s the same money problem, just more expensive.

[@Ike98250]

​@@keiharris332 they're different tiers of the same problem.

[@InsomniaticVampire]

Honestly, the money should not have been a reason to ban a card in EDH because proxies were encouraged. Now that Wizards controls the format, that won't be the case.

[@micboyyaboy2578]

@@keiharris332 Back when they were banned they weren't nearly as expensive as they are now. Also, them being thousands doesn't make $100+ affordable. Most people are still not gonna have the money to spare for those.

[@alicetheaxolotl]

I made a comment about this on Reddit just the other day. EDH was supposed to be a casual format to play your old, bad Standard cards. EDH becoming commander irreversibly changed the format, and current commander is completely unrecognizable from it's roots.

[@nosrin1988]

the tryhards will never believe you on this. they'll just tell you to play more degenerate cards and they'll ask why you arent running rhystic study in every deck you can or why are you bothering to run ornithoper of paradise, it's so bad! and it's like, ITS COOL! I THINK ITS COOL! T-T

[@keiharris332]

Who is drawing the line? Keep in mind, when EDH was made most of the legendary creatures sucked. And as more new cards came out, we got stronger things. So exactly where is the line and who gets the draw it? You? That other guy? How about, get good.

[@kindlingking]

​@@keiharris332get good...at casual multiplayer format? What?

[@keiharris332]

@@kindlingking you don't get to push out players because of your made up ruling on how a game should be played. Scrubs ruin the game. Always a million extra rules to make it "fair" to players like you. I could be using mid tier jank and you'll find a reason to want to ban my cards or gang up on me. Trash

[@keiharris332]

@@kindlingking also your entire idea about a format being casual or what falls apart when you consider that magic is a zero sum game. Someone will win. So where do you draw the line? How far do you get to push and warp the rules till it is fair for whom?

[@tabiasGrafton]

I don’t about rarely. Every level seven on spell table had at least a dockside or a mana crypt. It made it really hard to have rule zero conversations knowing that at least one person at the table had one of those.

[@MrMeltJr]

My issue with the "RC can act as a safety valve" argument is that... they just kinda didn't. We're going from WotC printing broken stuff and the RC not banning it to WotC printing broken stuff and WotC not banning it (potentially) If anything, WotC has historically been more willing to ban stuff than the RC

[@IvanKolyada]

Fully agree. Everyone would be half as pissed off, if those stupid band did not come out of nowhere.

[@gabegrice513]

I think the issue is not that Rules committee didn't ban stuff, but is that before the people who determined the format were a separate, non-financially driven group, with no fiduciary responsibility, whereas now there is a responsibility by the entity that controls the format to generate revenue, which leads to toxic behavior

[@otterfire4712]

Which is where WotC is looking into a bracketed system to keep more powerful cards in the higher brackets. This can keep a lot of power out of more casual settings. It also reduces the need to ban cards as cards will have a more appropriate place in high power levels.

[@MrMeltJr]

@@gabegrice513 WotC already effectively controlled the format because they print the cards and the RC was largely unwilling to reign in the more broken stuff. Unless the RC was going to suddenly get way more willing to ban stuff (seems highly unlikely given their past), then not much has really changed.

[@wydx120]

And the only time they did ban something people threatened to kill them

[@megasaurusxl4713]

Here I was thinking that EDH was a kind of synonym for commander that people said because it's kind of faster (maybe?)

[@thetrinketmage]

No just a clever title to get people thinking!

[@OrkishEngineering]

@@thetrinketmage shhhh, dont tell them that! let people argue about it in the comments!

[@thatonedudejake]

Maybe I saw the fast mana at casual tables way more than most people. Half of my normal play group opened mana crypt from double masters. In my experience, it (and jeweled lotus) is a card that is really appealing to casual players in a way that a card like demonic consultation isn't. Commander legends and double masters initiated crazy power creep in my local scene, jeweled lotus and mana crypt were at the core of that So, I agree with the ban

[@BAAWAKnight]

I was seeing at least 2 or 3 of the 4 banned cards every week before the ban. So much powercreep, but that also has to do with several tryhards we have at one of the LGS' I go to (including 1 who would bring *actual* cEDH decks to the non-cEDH pods until it seems the LGS owner asked him to not come for the non-cEDH pods. And yes: I talked to both the owner and to the guy about it; the guy blew me off with an attempted rationalization of "we're playing for packs/store credit, right? Therefore, it's a competition".)

[@mufasafalldown8401]

They were good bans. Doesn't matter how often they were seen. As for the financial side of it... mtg cards are not an investment. And if you bought these cards relying on them holding value then you have wayyyyy bigger problems than a card game.

[@temporaltomato3021]

I experienced something similar, had a group of acquaintances who loved pubstomping with fast mana. Now people have to at least ask, "Is Crypt/Lotus cool at this table?" And guess what. Most people never enjoyed one player immediately pulling ahead by 2/3 turns and never had any desire to go buy the cards to do it themselves. So the answer is no, and, if one finds a table where everyone is happy with those cards, then good for them.

[@thatonedudejake]

@@temporaltomato3021 yeah, from my experience with unofficial commanders, silver border commanders, and so on, I feel it is much easier to rule 0 cards in

[@brendans1983]

​​@@BAAWAKnightIf there was a prize to be won then anyone NOT bringing a hardcore deck is missing the point. The moment there is a prize then optimisation will be introduced. Blame your LGS for offering rewards for winning, not the person who wanted to win the prizes. Calling someone a 'tryhard' for appearing at a competition with the intent of winning is a bit off.

[@tcunero]

As a casual player, i find these cards played all the time. And i want more banned. I like splitting commander into competitive and casual legalitys. Layers is better for everyone getting what they want.

[@keiharris332]

Banned and split are different things. The ban didn't make a new format. It should be the case there is a casual and a competitive format.

[@tcunero]

@@keiharris332 yes... thats exactly what I am saying....

[@traycarrot]

Idk where this guy is playing, but I've played in several states with military dudes with less than 6 months in MtG, broke college kids, and rich doctors in the nice part of town. They all have hundreds to thousands of dollars in MtG cards and are routinely slamming fast mana and tutors in "casual durdle/jank decks"

[@rossmcbeath4997]

I would be really excited at a split format.

[@maxpelletier2237]

My group didn't over react. I lost an extortionnist, 2 friends lost 3 crypts, and that's.oretty much it. We readapted our decks and moved on. The reaction by a minority of players just was overwhelming because there are a lot of MTG players. So a slight minority of mentally unajusted players was still massive.

[@eightywight]

It's angry turbo 4utist finance bros.

[@DraphEnjoyer]

Why is your play group following a non official committees decrees? Bans only ever effect professional play

[@maxpelletier2237]

@@DraphEnjoyer We follow the format's legality, We also sometimes do tournaments with prices so there's thst. But we also have zero rules like no infinite combo allowed. Crafti g a deck around that is actually tougher than it seems. It's always funny when someone accidently goes infinite and we tell him, "infinite conbo! You're dead" What happens as a meta is that sometimes, the game become epic, with 2 or 3 opponents taking off to exponential limits, but still struggling to win, and then something happens and the dominating player gets destroyed, and it all switch to another player. Games are much more interesting. There are still non-games, but less of them, and they tend to be more enjoyable as a whole. Very different then having a momentum broken by a suddent infinite combo show stopper. Anyway, sorry for the rant. We follow the basic rules and add more. We're even considering removing solring, or allowing anyone who gets the solring out on turn one to have every other player fetch theirs too. Also, we all agree on the old ban list for good reasons. IE: Karakas...

[@williamdrum9899]

​​@@DraphEnjoyer The majority of players follow the banlist, or at least enough to drive the market in a similar fashion to a true banlist. Money talks

[@jn71000486]

I don’t feel the the average magic player is the most well adjusted person.

[@simonteesdale9752]

I'd also like to echo the positive influence of these bans. You'd get the occasional casual player who'd cracked one, and more often than not, they'd swap it between all their decks. Plus, lower-power games are generally less likely to have the interaction needed to deal with a Lotus'd out commander. The T1 Hakbal I've played against isn't exactly the most broken use, but it sure did annihilate the table nonetheless.

[@theonlylunarmage]

I've only recently gotten into commander this year as I returned to Magic since last playing in 2016. I've enjoyed seeing some of the older commanders going up against some of the very new, fun and sometimes silly broken cards from the recent few sets. I love my dumb Wick deck. I'm lucky the place I play at is a good mixture of players, they're very experienced and high tier players but I very rarely feel outclassed other than a few people who shove those expensive competitive staples into everything. I'm thankful there's a collective eyerolling or sigh at the table whenever it happens.

[@The1nvisibleJeevas]

Wick and Snail appreciators unite!

[@grimkhor]

Can't agree. I started playing in 2011 and in my first friend casual group our commanders were Sisay, Zur the Enchanter, Animar and Mimeoplasm. A couple years later (2013-2014) we self ruled to not include infinite combos because games ended very fast. People idolize old times as the promised land of jank when it always was pretty fast if you wanted to. People are getting more hateful these days is how it feels to me instead of talking with each other. MTG finance people get hated even if most look at reserved list stuff and not Mana Crypts. cEDH people get a lot of unreasonable hate. The community overall gets more and more toxic instead of just picking up some cards and enjoying a game that's the biggest difference to old EDH.

[@rokmare]

If you don't like investors than you gonna hate wizards taking over they say they don't acknowledge the secondary market but they know how important they are in getting these people to buy in the first place 😂

[@Thomas-vn6cr]

Wizards have changed their own story fundamentally purely so they could focus even more heavily on commander. Now they're removed one of the very last things stopping them from endlessly pushing the money drug button. Not that they haven't been doing that anyways.

[@rokmare]

@@Thomas-vn6cr I agree just look at standard and modern, commander was the last bastion for players and now they have control over that too 😓

[@gnogara]

Agreed. Would WotC EVER pre-ban Lutri like the RC has done? Gavin can say whatever, what comes out of the printer is what matters, and what is coming out is pushed cardboard that is an auto include.

[@ericsmith3808]

I love EDH, I started as a Standard player who fell in love with the variety of EDH. Each game felt unique. I used to also play Modern, so when WotC tanked that into the ground, I was upset but I at least still had EDH. Now, Im not so sure. I can always hope that they do the right thing for the format and dont powercreep it into oblivion with "must have" cards, but they are a buisness that only sees proffit, and if the numbers are high that's all they care about, not the health of the format.

[@maxpelletier2237]

When ESH first came out, there was only some cards like Act of treason, and rampant growth that had many other cards with the same effect. Now a day, about every mechanics exist in many other cards with little difference. Thus, Commander has evolved from Highlander with always unique games, to very similar behavior every game. Some friends build decks around tutoring for the same cards in the same order every game. It becomes so predictible.

[@IvanKolyada]

This is more of people problem, than game design. You can only invent so much unique designs, before they become too bloated. So no wonder we have “duplicates” - sometimes literal mechanics-wise. Like “Three Visits” and “Nature’s Lore”

[@Cocytus127]

Commander is dead. Time to play 99 card singleton format with a special legendary creature in the command zone that you can play is if it were in your hand.

[@bruh-mb6hs]

Yeah and maybe if that creature is removed, we could recast it? Probably would have to cost like 2 mana more or something like that

[@TdogplaysCOD]

⁠@@bruh-mb6hsBut it has to be more impactful than that, especially against life gain… what if that creature only had to deal a certain amount of damage to take out an opponent? Maybe like 19 or 23? Idk I’m just spitballing ideas

[@aronarguello982]

Better trademark that format name, i think it might catch on

[@nachos1162]

Kinda surprised Unfinity didn't have a version of Sol Ring that was able to be used as a commander lmao. Imagine having a commander deck wherre Sol Ring is your commander

[@xezerex4494]

Babe wake up, new trinket mage video dropped

[@jeremyv3470]

Why the fook you wake me up!?

[@frankcasares7864]

Big facts, been waiting for another banger

[@fasterbuilder11]

One must imagine trinket mage happy...

[@darksiders18]

I have been in several games were Nadu was casted. It was mostly in landfall decks.

[@thetrinketmage]

That makes sense I just hadn’t seen it

[@PokemonWalkthroughDS]

I personally don't love the "you can't ban all pub stomping cards" argument, the bans were specifically targeting poor game design elements that negatively impact random lgs match experiences. We all understand that whales are going to fill up their 3 extra deck slots with the next 3 most broken cards, but there's genuinely a huge gap of power level between the 3 banned fast mana cards and the next best. Getting out your 5 or 6 mana commander on turn 1 or 2 is significantly more difficult, also gearing these whale decks more towards their 99 which I see as mostly a positive.

[@razielrythin3845]

Ancient Tomb is a thing

[@dcdids2011]

I lost my dockside and I gotta say: good ridance. I hated that it was a must have in all red decks if you could afford it. It was simply that universal. On another note: I LOVE seeing Breena the demagogue being mentioned as a "fun, wacky multiplayer card". She was my first commander with her pre con and I chose her because of that very reason. She seemed FUN to play and she will always have a special place in my hearth.

[@andrewp979]

It baffles me that more people aren't saying what you've said here. Anger should be directed at WOTC for making obviously problematic cards expensive.

[@TheCatHerder]

I'm not as upset about the format being handed to Wizards as I am about the absolutely ridiculous way people reacted to the bans. I would never ask a volunteer to tolerate the amount of vitriol that folks threw their way last week, and we are now heading into our "find out" phase of format guidance.

[@sortfaar3]

the best scenario (that will never happen) is that WotC internally just reinstates the same rules committee, with all the same people that sheldon invited himself (+ 1-3 new wotc members), but lets them remain anonymous. kinda like how runescape does with their moderators they could get a title (like RC for rules committee as a poor example) followed by a color or color combination, which they could use for when they interact with the playerbase (which they should do, pretty regularly). no face or name attached to the members creates a safety net that makes it hard(er) to find who you need to send death threats to, and allows the members to separate themselves from their responsebilities on their off time.

[@Rudepetsclub]

Being new to mtg in general I sorta wanna just play old ass EDH jank bullshit. I wanna use those old weird dragons lol

[@thetrinketmage]

Original nicol bolas is still decent

[@whatsupdoc6358]

It's wriously such a fun way to play. There are so so many old jank cards that are a blast to play that don't get played much anymore sadly.

[@darylmcnaughton748]

this is what EDH/Commander always was too me from way back in 2010 to now. It was the format that gave you the chance to play big ridiculous cards that never saw play in 60 card constructed formats

[@darylmcnaughton748]

@@thetrinketmage used to run him ages ago till Nicol Bolas, the Ravager came out

[@Mensch777]

Very interesting takes, I too believe in Gavin. Something I was thinking about since the bans is, that (some unknown but significant enough amount of) cEDH players have always gained bad rap for being a bit toxic. Now they banned cards almost exclusively affecting cEDH and suddenly a lot of comments on different platforms have been just that, toxic. But before ending in a downward spiral I also noticed a good amount of reasonable people. In the end I came to the conclusion that cEDH and EDH (or Commander and cCommander?) have to be seperated not just for being "different" games but for having some vastly different mindsets. And by that I do not mean that the competetive side is the toxic side but rather the investment and cutt-throat-ness (not sure what word would fit) is so high that is sadly also attracts some bad folk that should not enter "casual" commander tables to begin with.

[@TheMaskedNinja_]

The fun thing about this is that no matter what wotc says is banned or unbanned we can just ask the table to use a card or not play with people playing overpowered cards

[@AJ-em2rb]

i love seeing my opponents get wrecked by crypt. i wish they'd make another that taps for 1 + 1 of any color, but burns for 5 damage on losing the flip and automatically taps for mana during your upkeep

[@TheMaskedNinja_]

@@AJ-em2rb just don't play with people that use those cards, that simple. Ande personally? I love playing against expensive decks with crazy cards, makes beating them feel all the better in my opinion so if an opponent asked me if Im okay with mana crypt/lotus/dockside id be cool with it

[@simonteesdale9752]

The issue is that it's _much_ easier to rule 0 banned cards in, than problematic ones out. As an anecdote, I've successfully R0'd exactly one card out (a proxy Tabernacle), failed to R0 out a more (Golos, Nexus of Fate & Mana crypt). Meanwhile, I've R0'd _in_ custom cards personally, and seen 5c Urza & Jumblemorph decks R0'd in on the regular.

[@TheMaskedNinja_]

@@simonteesdale9752 not even a rule 0, just flat out refuse to play against it. Might sound a bit childish but everyone should respect their own time of you know someone is using cards that limit howuch you enjoy the format just don't engage with them

[@mangomoe7347]

As someone who got into mtgo recently (much cheaper) I just want to say you cannot even queue up with banned cards in your deck, so bans do matter, especially in more automated media

[@MrJessijeff]

Hello Tinker Mage, I made a little challange for myself and created a deck with only cards from 1993 to 2003. Cards that only had the old border and not the standerd border we have today. It was super fun and it's one of my favorit decks! The commander is Rith, the Awakener and the deck is a Kavu/Saproling token deck. Where the kavus help eachother out and then I have the commander and some other cards to help the Saprolings, like: Verdeloth the Ancient, Mirari's Wake and Coat of Arms. Ones you have a ton of saprolings, throw down Keldon Warlord and swing with a gaint dude or Overrun and buff everything. I would higly recommed anyone to do this!

[@Cynidecia]

Awesome oldschool/premodern general.

[@otterstream1263]

My casual group is very proxy friendly. I saw all 3 of these 4 cards (we didn’t play nadu), predominantly dockside and mana crypt quite a bit. All of us had phases right when we started proxying where we used them and immediately noticed the quality of our games go down. Anyone who played 1-2 of these cards was basically guaranteed to win. Even with removal being thrown at their threats/counterspelling the cards themselves, they drained so many resources from a table of decks that were often a mix of budget cards with proxy enhancements.

[@miguelfreitas5343]

Dropped a like just because of the Financial Analyst rant/tangent xD I actually had no idea that was your area of expertise and hearing you spitting facts for people who more than deserve it was amazing 😁

[@zztoppinseve]

I've actually recently been getting back into playing my classic decks and just updating them, which has made me remember a lot of things I did forget I really enjoyed. Mirko Vosk and Phenax, as well as Radha, and just running cards I like has made me more excited to think about playing, rather than just, "let me buy a precon, make a strong decklist, then not build it because it feels bad"

[@hyperjump1169]

You completely right about the CEDH meta but I do think you are slightly wrong thinking that stacks will fall behind I think he they might actually shine now that dockside isn’t going to be fed by pieces like rule of law and even vexing bobble i think cedh is definitely going to be more grindy tho

[@thetrinketmage]

You might be right we could see more blood moon effects come back

[@justagoose7741]

I don't understand the argument for the recent bans being bad for the game. Practically everyone, even cEDH players and those who owned the cards, agree from the moment these cards were printed that they were design mistakes. Some in the know even begged WotC not to print them (Jeweled Lotus). The bans were good, even if handled poorly. That said, I agree the consequences for cEDH are unfortunate, but that's not as much a result of the bans and more so general gane design over a long period of time. There are more cards that could be banned to make it healthier, but I imagine you'd also disagree with that philosophy.

[@Bladezeromus]

Opinions are pretty diverse. "Practically everyone" isn't a metric. Practically everyone you know/ content you consume will of course agree with that viewpoint because you're fed content on an algorithm and you play with like minded people. Down here on the gulf coast we hated these ban because they killed higher cmc commanders and removed lines that could compete with D.Consultation + Thassa's while also not touching any part of that win, thus gut checking any deck that wasn't at least dimir. Which is why most of the LGSs didn't ban those cards when the announcements came.

[@foxrogge6298]

I see the argument that people lost money on these cards way too often and that argument is not valid.many people in other formats lose their expensive cards to bannings all the time.

[@siukong]

Not just to bannings - which is admittedly the most extreme case - but also to many other causes. Like set rotations, meta changes (suddenly a new deck counters the former top dog), a surprise reprinting (used to be more unexpected than it is today), etc. I can only assume that for a lot of the currently enraged people, this is their very first time getting burned and having a high value card sharply tank in value. Yeah it sucks to have it happen to you, but it has been a part of the game for literally decades. This will have to be an unfortunate learning experience for many. (My own learning experience: back in the day I cracked a foil Jace the Mind Sculptor. Was on the verge of selling it for like $200+ when it suddenly got banned and the prospective buyer fell through. Nowadays I'm still stuck with the card and it's not even worth $20)

[@ty_sylicus]

EDH will live on in my heart.

[@heathfeath9411]

Thanks for the reminder of the Pinkerton situation. I feel like a lot of people forgot about that incident lol

[@rayaronitwitchybrow]

I am so easily influenceable. This video literally made me agree with ban opinions, then despair about future of the format, then have hope for new commander. Holy moly. [tbc I was already happy about JL and Dockside being banned just had different reasons]

[@thatonedudejake]

Trouble in pairs and pollywog prodigy are pretty pushed, but with those exceptions I agree with your point on precon design

[@thetrinketmage]

Agreed, both are good but not at the same level as smothering tithe I think

[@thatonedudejake]

@@thetrinketmage agreed

[@morning_star4033]

7:32 this was how I started most of my commander decks. Find a legendary creature and put any cards I had to fill the slots (kept with theme but only had bulk or bought singles for the 99)

[@QuicksilverSG]

Commander is really three overlapping formats, distinguished by card selection: * Casual Commander - No: stax, infinite loops, land destruction. Budget-friendly, no proxies. * Pay-to-Win Commander - Casual plus pay-to-win cards > $25. Proxies require permission. * Competitive EDH (cEDH) - Play-to-win, nothing legal excluded. Proxies taken for granted. Prominent promoters of Pay-to-Win Commander are WotC, online card dealers, and corporate-sponsored KZbinrs.

[@thejunecooperative]

I feel like there's a gradient of casual where some pay to win cards, bad infinite combos, and things like stax are tolerated, and proxies are as well, but yes by and large I agree

[@QuicksilverSG]

@@thejunecooperative Yes, those exceptions are all negotiated via Rule 0, whereby mutual permission is granted to play with certain pay-to-win and/or proxy cards,

[@OddMidnight]

I'd say there's five formats, actually. Adding: *Tolerant Commander - Tables where most people play salty cards just to play what they want with no intention to play competitively. *Semi-competitive Commander - Tables with players that play to win but don't want to play staple cards that make the game too fast or lower the creativity of their deckbuilding, like Thassa's Oracle and free mana rocks

[@PaulGaither]

7:15 - You mentioned 2015, but I go back to 2007 with the article that got a lot of attention and introduced the format to many people. I am so glad YOU are saying this, as a bunch on forever-online no-life try-hards over the years have tried to claim otherwise. This was still true into 2019. It was the Covid era that saw the largest change.

[@maduyn]

I think a neat video topic would be about why strong removal or boardwipes can be seen as okay to be auto include but why other card types (ramp manarocks,etc) might be bad to be strong enough to be auto includes and how that effects the health of a format.

[@igorkarpliuk2492]

I was so happy to see marchesa in the first scene since she is my favourite commander and my playgroup always focuses her

[@SaltyCrocodile]

Excellent video Trinket. You brought up really good points. I too am hopeful for the new Commander.

[@CompilerTube]

Great way to see it, optimistic but cautious. Excellent video.

[@chanceclapp5526]

I'll have you know that building decks around bulk, cheap or pre modern cards is my favourite way to build EDH, and surprisingly they actually end up a formidable foe against my opponents. Purely unintentional but despite being stronger than people realise, it's much more fun. I think people need to start looking at older sets and finding weird and wacky mechanics you don't see all that often. For example my next work in progress is a Mish mash of banding and Bushido. How many people can you say play a Bushido deck? Probably very few because it's not really that good in these days, but having an underpowered or out of date mechanic that isn't much supported anymore can be the perfect way to take your opponents by surprise

[@jibb8545]

Thank you for a reasonable take on the bans. I play multi commander games a week with friends and strangers on Discord. The number of times I saw those card played in a casual game was almost never. Every now and then someone would have a slightly faster start or an explosive turn but more often than not you either target down that person or shuffle up and move onto the next game. Everyone was acting like there was some villain that haunted their LGS with dangerous cardboard.

[@NightOfCrystals]

I think some people playing budget commander may take the “old edh” mentality more, building decks out of their collections versus buying newer cards. That said, the reality of power creep is that decks just don’t have those 10-20 pet card or flex slots they used to back when expectations for what each card was going to do were way lower. I came back to Magic after a 12 year hiatus in 2017, and “old edh” was still the order of the day back then, and it was really cool. I built lots of budget decks for $30-$50 US and it was awesome.

[@Usernameneverseen]

I agree with your optimism towarss the new formst owners, i felt the RC kinda slept at the wheel when they had real oppotunitys to develop and guide the formst, and now with people like gavin in total control hopefully things are better going forward. Thanks for helping me voice that, the atmosphere around this has been fairly negitive, which since I didn't really like the RC made it awkward, but hearing you talk about the history of the format as it was and what it could be now really cleared the cobwebs outta my head ^^

[@Duskraven377]

"Modern Horizons Block Constructed" made me laugh. Thanks.❤

[@greatbrandini3967]

The thing I hate the most about new cards is how many legendaries just spoon feed you your deck. I think the most fun commanders are the ones that make you think outside of the box

[@ty_sylicus]

Look, Pre-Commander was already a thing. If players want that retro feeling, find a feel like-minded friends and build decks with ZERO Commander set cards (of even all cards from 2012 and before.

[@Evilkritter]

It is funny to see manacrypt and dockside in every "casual" pod at my LGS for the last three months, and then have so many people talk about how rarely they saw it. I guess it is super location dependent

[@jeremiahchamberlain4179]

Every single deck i build uses card from throughout the history of magic. My favorits thing is when a new commander makes old cards relevant, and there are lots of people like me.

[@tralph283]

I seriously miss battlecruiser era edh . The glory days of like 2007 - 2013 😭

[@HazmanFTW]

I miss the old EDH, the jank rares EDH The turn 10 plays EDH, the ridiculous combo EDH.

[@Imanmagnet00]

I'm on the flipside that really likes the bans. Those 3 out of those 4 cards should never have existed for me, even Gavin Verhey in the latest update flat out called Jeweled a mistake and it's only ever gonna get worse the more the format develops. Dockside is one I find really annoying because I see people claiming that's it is the sole reason red can be viable in CEDH, which while it can be true doesn't negate the fact the card is bonkers and insanely easy to loop and leads to boring play patterns, much like Nadu who is Nadu. These three are basically the epitome of what we always say about designing with Commander in mind, it's unimaginative at the end of the day and not standing up to the design philosophy those three embody was only ever gonna spell out more trouble down the line. Pretty much every argument I've heard in favor of them can be applied to stuff like Hullbreacher and even Leovold. "Just remove it" "it's not a problem in casual" etc. But it doesn't negate the problem that when they DO go off, it's an immense problem. As for Mana Crypt, while I think the card is fine in the format, the psychological effect it causes is too big to ignore. The prices it commands and its status as a better Sol Ring make other players feel as if they have to invest big chunks of change to keep up, and while proxying is encouraged and allowed, the rift cards like it cause linger and it's ultimately not good for the game, for as we saw, the moment that piece of cardboard isn't playable anymore, the investors and speculators whip out their pitchforks for they feel their investment was nullified, leading to those who approve of the bans to further feel it was the right move. Why would I play a card game where the moment something's perceived value is open to change the response is to attack and threaten members of the community? I get wanting a hands off approach to how the format is played, but given the surge of popularity, it just doesn't seem viable and moves will have to happen where not everyone will be satisfied, happens in every other card games and in others with eternal formats too, the task has grown beyond just the RC. I have my doubts about WOTC taking over given how mishandled almost all other formats are, but until we see what comes of it, I have to remain at least cautiously optimistic.

[@domicci4460]

1:40 im a very casual player and have seen them pop up every once and a while just to pub stomp a table its just not fun being curb stomped by these cards

[@DrunkenPilotVideos]

*The One Ring exists* Players: "WotC, Cast It Into the Fire! Destroy it!" WotC: "No"

[@Ox7moron]

this title is honestly such genius phrasing of the situation

[@thetrinketmage]

I got it from someone on twitter tbh. I asked their permission to use the banger tweet as my title

[@Spark-Gold]

I think Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus can stick around if they make sure that they print them at a similar level of frequency as other iconic Commander staples like Sol Ring or Command Tower

[@watshesaid]

It’s going to progressively get worse

[@Cynidecia]

I know. Nadu will be powercrept.

[@Iweleth]

The one thing I hope changes in philosophy is that the made for commander allows for old jank to be viable again without feeling like you get punished for playing it. Until now it had always been mixing new and old that made it fun to me.

[@icholi88]

This is the death of casual play, whether or not people recognize it. Tiers will just make it a challenge to see how much a competitive player can push the envelope without technically breaking the rules. Be prepared for people to sweat just as hard in tier 1 as tier 4, just using the restrictions as a challenge. "What do you mean your upset? Its a tier 1 deck! Don't be such a whiner, all these cards are playable at this level. I'm not gonna change because I don't need to, I'm literally playing with the weakest cards in the format, you just need to get good."

[@milii113]

If the tier system is pushed to completely replace pregame convos, then I feel the same way. There's no set of restrictions that can make every deck fair to play against eachother, especially not ones based solely on individual cards. That being said I do think a tier system guided by synnergies/combos/wincon can be helpful in the same way that power level was supposed to be, but cannot be relied on to accurately measure a matchup

[@thetrinketmage]

Yup! One of my first thoughts was how could someone make a busted tier 1 deck

[@ghaleon7]

My pod ignored the ban list before the recent additions and will continue to ignore it. Most of the old banned cards we didn't even know about or have a desire to use anyways, but there are some that we have just always used. We all use dockside and crypt but rarely does anyone ever really pop off due to them because our decks our casually made. We're also all good friends and try not to be dicks to each other during the game. Those pieces are there just to help cast the expensive commanders or X/big spells we're trying to do, not being abused to flicker or go infinite over and over. Even my deck that's meant to go infinite doesn't use dockside because it's Sultai colors. Also for those who hate the fast mana and want to "slow the game down" then go back to old legendary cards and make decks with things from before 2016. You'll slow down plenty then. You don't have to use the new, low cost commanders and pushed powerhouses. You may not win as often but you'll start to have your slower format.

[@guyclegg]

Flubs Can be played at least 3 different ways and is a testament to how silly it is. Flubs is also my first commander

[@martinheraud1744]

Ok I agree with your arguments. I think that we can still decide to build decks without staples and have fun. Especially with proxies, the deck building decision are based on theme/power desired and not price

[@VexylObby]

I am surprised to hear that MC or Dockside did not show up in casual decks that much. In my experience and everyone I personally know, they were far too common.

[@zuzima161]

These four bans were top notch. I dont know who you play with, but Nadu, Mana Crypt, and Dockside were pretty common to see.

[@FightinTheGorlax]

Ayyyyy insta thumbs up for the Cirdan the Shipwright shoutout!

[@marshall4439]

I hope we see a format-ization of Commander in the future, where just as cEDH is understood as essentially a different format from Commander, hopefully we can see versions like "Modern Commander" where only Modern legal cards are allowed, or resurrecting "EDH" to mean "only sets which were at some point standard legal are allowed." I am a huge fan of Artisan Commander, where rares/mythics are disallowed. Commander benefits from subformats.

[@kidlink7200]

Finance discussion from a mtg ytber is not what I expected today

[@thetrinketmage]

For legal reasons I need to make it clear nothing I said is financial advice

[@kidlink7200]

changed it

[@Kjos_jax]

Towards the end you said we haven't had any free spell cycles but we just had one in thunder junction. I know that seems like last year at this point because they won't stop pumping out products but that was just 3 months ago...

[@Arcrobes]

Hey trinket, I play commander with my small group of friends but am hesitant to play at an lgs due to all the variation in power levels and politics of the game. Can you please comment or make a video sharing your experiences and tips when playing commander at an lgs? My scarab god deck can go wide zombie tribal to win fairly, but also has some infinite combos with gravecrawler. Thanks!

[@thetrinketmage]

My “every deck is a 7” video I think does a good job talking about power and what to expect at a normal store. Maybe I’ll make a guide to going to your LGS I was going to but didn’t like how the script turned out

[@mark1A100]

what you just said is more then sufficient for an opening discussion. most people will either say sure thats fine as they have decks at the same level or say sorry we dont have anything for that. you will find a table

[@TiltFuse2.0]

I LOVE this take

[@ZytrikX]

The nadu ban was so needed a buddy of mine had a nadu deck and it was a monster

[@leedogification]

As a very casual player, something that would actually help me a whole lot more than these recent bans is if they would have banned toxic instead.

[@dyne313]

I LOVE those last 4 bannings. THEY WERE THE BEST THING THE RULES COMMITTEE EVER DID.

[@Kryptnyt]

I think they are good choices for bannings, though there are cards higher on my list like Thoracle.

[@francispham6113]

Based RC

[@lucasrios2089]

6:45 I have literally seen this happen myself. Played with a few randoms at my LGS that were playing for the first time in about a decade, fellow had a Leovold deck that got absolutely WORKED

[@Mischievous_Moth]

5:00 I don't know man, I've heard good things about investing in Lego. (Please don't, it's already an expensive hobby.)

[@zanderfus2723]

Lego investors are actually clowns, but yeah the hobby is already very expensive as it is lol

[@viviblue7277]

These pieces being gone improves table dynamics at LGS casual commander night. I’m not gonna go on this at length though it’s a long complicated nuanced topic.

[@Kjos_jax]

Commander is the best thing to ever happen to Magic. Everyone I know that plays came back to the game just for it. Standard, modern, etc are boring rotating formats. Glad I never sold my cards so I can build Commander decks until the day I die Edit: I really like most of your take especially for those who regard MTG as an investment and don't even play. I will point out that the investment options you may be aware of do not come with the most enjoyable game the world has ever known. Even if all my cards went to zero I would still enjoy... People need to take a step back and remember why they started playing Savannah

[@CrunchBar-qe5fw]

As soon as the RC was formed, EDH no longer existed. I'm not sure why we're still talking about this.

[@TheChevLss]

All my homebrews are still full of “jank” because they aren’t useless cards and I paid good $/per pack opened. Also limits the power to around decent precons without lining finance bro pockets. Newbies aren’t so fortunate as they take the brunt of secondary prices from trying to match the vets of EDH but likely helping push prices higher as well because “you need those cards” advice. Play what you got I say and remember, rule zero.

[@WookieRookie]

I think that investing into magic now is much riskier than just gambling buying boosters

[@thatonefirekestral]

Trinket mage: gives financial advice Two seconds later: look, this isn't financial advice; you can do whatever you want

[@ConcernedSkeptic]

ive had a dockside extortionist sitting in my card binder for awhile. never paid attention to it since i didnt have a use for it. how much was it worth?

[@mark1A100]

before the ban like 70-80

[@DeanTheAdequate]

But now a more serious answer: I find that when I want those Old EDH feelings I rope my friends into playing Pauper Commander. 30 life, commander is an Uncommon and 99 Commons. I make several decks for the holidays ad give them away at my local game store in a white elephant fashion. I highly recommend it to shake things up.

[@radicard5193]

One thing about the banning of Mana Crypt is that fast mana is somehow even more of a premium now. Without Crypt, we only really have Sol Ring, the legal Moxen, The Reserved List cards, and most importantly Mana Vault. This one being highlighted due to its sudden price hike. The point being, the guys that bought all the fast mana are being put in advantage over the people who just invested that money into just the Crypt.

[@razielrythin3845]

Ancient. Tomb.

[@Magicannon_]

I'm hopeful, especially with a few more hoops up to give Rule 0 with randoms a bit more structure. It's not like WotC is sending Pinkertons to private playgroups because they want to play with Mana Crypts. It's not going to happen, and I believe they confirmed Sol Ring will not be restricted, but I'd have a ton of respect if they start pruning what they call mistakes from at least their lower brackets. I also enjoy the creativity the designers have been using. I do feel that there is a level of "deck builds itself" cards that scream their signpost and kind of make your synergy core rather obvious. However, the experience is often still interesting to play against in moderation. Hopefully they don't make them boring. My main example that I play is Go-Shintai of Life's Origin. And yes, I do play the majority of shrines. I actually feel it is a better experience to play than it was before as it used to play the 5 color Sisay, which got tedious tutoring every turn and grabbing the same shrines every game. Yet still, it is a shrines deck and as soon as you sit down to play people know what to look out for. But, if you want to get funky, Go-Shintai can technically be an enchantment reanimator deck. Perhaps I'll try to build something to run that for fun in the future.

[@FoldingScreenMonkey]

I know it's anecdotal but my lgs said the bans really didn't effect them at all. The big thing they were talking about was mystery booster 2 stock

[@arrestedsolidyhe77sp]

I think these bans are healthy and good. The way I see this is as a way to add variety and creativity to building a manabase, not juts mindlessly putting the same cards in every deck. These cards also do have a pretty big impact, they essentially allow you to be a turn ahead of everyone at least and ket you cast important commanders at no cost. In my eyes, the commitee did what was best for commander and were successful