[EDH] Universes Beyond: A Measured Response

Just a quick video about my opinions on MTG's new UB policy. No need to doom and gloom, UB hasn't killed magic yet and it still won't be doing so... I think.
--
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[@33elk]

The Discord: discord.gg/NBTgYG2deZ This video was made before the Marvel Secret Lair debacle which of course is atrocious lol. "Let's make Secret Lair limited orders" into making a UB push like this is not a good look for sure. Thanks for watching.

[@Cow4100]

I still cant separate UB universes beyond from UB dimir in my mind. Awful time to be dimir gamer

[@ToxicAtom]

Scryfall for "id:UB -is:UB" always feels so weird to me

[@lancesmith8298]

Every time I see the letters, I have to triple take from Dimir, Ultra Beasts, and then finally, the proper reading of the acronym, Ultimately Bad

[@hyoroemongaming569]

​@@lancesmith8298pikeshowfon?

[@Azeria]

6 standard sets a year is a nightmare for Arena players, it’s impossible to make enough wildcards now, it _will_ require a lot of money to keep up as of next year.

[@jarnopiispanen3483]

I have never spent a single dime on arena and don't intend to do so.

[@brunoyudi9555]

i delete and recreate my account periodically lmao they flood you with wildcards when you first create a account, so i just major reset every 6 months and with minimal effort, keep competitive without spending a dime.

[@LookADistarction]

A 50% increase in the amount of new sets when product fatigue is already mounting feels like a nightmare to me as well.

[@Azeria]

@@jarnopiispanen3483 naturally, but it means I will have to stop playing most likely

[@edwardbishop3150]

vote with your wallet sheeple, just don't buy UB period

[@DominatorLegend]

Welcome to Funko the Poppening

[@mueezadam8438]

@@DominatorLegend **feverous scribbling** sociologists: (muttering under breath) brilliant

[@yoyoguy1st]

As someone who plays mostly 60 card formats (standard and pioneer) and only really plays commander with 1 dedicated group I'm really annoyed how I can no longer avoid UB sets. I was fine with them as commander sets, they seemed fine there and I didn't have to interact with them much. But now I do. Also yes the border and rarity triangles bug the heck out of me, they all stick out like sore thumbs

[@caedmonr112]

The "magic has always been silly" argument is one that I've known since forever is flawed but had never found the language to explain why. "Billboard in a public park" is exactly the language. One thing that you touched on that I still feel doesn't get enough attention: This has "this format is not for you" 'd every single competitive format irrevocably for anyone not willing to play UB cards. I've always been on the cusp of making a standard deck and foundations is a super cool set that would be an amazing entry point for me, and all desire to care about standard is gone. I think we too easily draw a line between casual kitchen table players and competitive netdeck grinders, thereby ignoring a bunch of people that fall inbetween. I fall inbetween. (Also yes I hate that border with a passion and it's one of a few reasons that AFR and CLB don't count as UB for me)

[@yurisei6732]

Same. I was excited to get back into Standard through foundations, since it would have meant I didn't really have to worry about keeping up to date with the card pool, and my interest didn't even survive until Foundations' release before the spiderman is standard announcement killed it.

[@qwormuli77]

I couldn't agree more. There has always been heavy or even downright plagiaristic loaning in the visuals and/or feel of MTG and the people using this as an example of it not being "original" are more or less correct, but so far everything has been more or less translated into the milieu of of the IP. While the nod is closer to aggressive shaking of one's head than anything, the Eldrazi are still distinctly Magic, instead of Lovecraft or Chambers. That isn't remotely true from "The Spider-man from the recent hit product of Spider-man in the X of Y!" or anything that is blatantly distinct from something purposefully made for a Magic set. I might enjoy the implementation of WH40K more than I expected or easily tolerate the Tales of Middle Earth, despite my misgivings, but those still are inherently ill-fitting to the core of MTG. The -shill- franchise excitement building alters for existing cards, like the Godzilla ones, are fine with me. The silver border tongue-in-cheek MLP cardboard rectangles are fine with me. But everything evolving from the original TWD disaster has been on a steep hill downwards and I'm far from happy to think that I was right about that dread.

[@carbide4458]

I can't escape the advertisements and it kills me.

[@HunterStiles651]

"If I look up at the night sky and see an ad for McDonalds, I'm becoming a terrorist" - Wendigoon

[@yurisei6732]

Depends on how you define "dead". There is factually a game that has the name "magic the gathering", that is making profits and being played. But it has very little in common with the game called "magic the gathering" that I was playing ten years ago. The card pool has largely been replaced, aside from a handful of overpowered cards from early sets. The flavour has largely been replaced, not just by natural set rotation but by the replacement sets being filled with tropes and references instead of good worldbuilding; and now by the ingress of straight up licensed IP. And the playerbase has largely been replaced - no one I was playing with even just five years ago still plays today, and when I go to play commander at locals, it's very rare I find a pod where no-one is playing UB cards. Theseus has replaced every board of his ship. There is still a ship owned by Theseus, but it is not the same ship he had in 2014; that ship is a pile of planks in a drowned catacomb.

[@lracseroom8286]

Well said.

[@OmnomnomPancake]

And yet I'm still having fun playing. Whatever this necromance'd corpse is, it's a tonne of fun to play! Make sure to have your buds who quit sell their old cards hella cheap to me and my buds who just got into the game :D

[@nikolaitheundying]

You: "Is that fucking gary clone!? At your table!? I CANNOT play this game! Fuck all of you for killing magic" The unbothered people enjoying their commander game:

[@RegisJim]

Well written.

[@yurisei6732]

@@OmnomnomPancake If you just got into the game, I'd argue you're not "still" having fun playing, because you haven't yet had much chance to stop enjoying it. Bear in mind though that the average lifespan of a recent-starter is just 18 months, so you're statistically quite likely to move on within the next year or so.

[@Ironpecker]

My biggest complaint, which was also leveraged by the Professor, is that even the "normal" Magic sets just feel like "casual zany multiversal adventures"! Like next year only Tarkir seems to be the only semi serious set of the year, and same thing for this year it was just bloomburrow to have that mtg feel; maybe duskmourn too, depending on how you feel about it. Universes beyond I can compromise with, but when wotc also fails to deliver on classic mtg sets it just feels like magic isn't magic.

[@Rayne_On_Your_Parades]

I wish it didn't, but tbh, seeing Magic turn into Fortnite: the Gathering makes losing my collection to black mold hurt less. At this point I'm almost glad my cards are gone, because it isn't a billboard in a park. WOTC paved over half the park for a walmart and expect everyone who came there to visit the park to be chill with people parking on the grass.

[@heliacall2904]

Cant wait for the cocomelom set so they can get all the babies playing

[@lancesmith8298]

Have you seen the main subreddit? We are already stupid.

[@musashishinmen4286]

You mean everyone still playing this game at this point in time isn't already one?

[@lracseroom8286]

I can't wait for the Lululemon SLD so I can get my commander some nice comfy yoga pants!

[@lracseroom8286]

@@musashishinmen4286 Newsflash: MTG's playerbase has always been largely autistic crying manchildren. I know. I started playing in '94.

[@ErisCake]

Honest, I don't want [My Favorite IP] to get a UB set... Art can stand on its own, it can be its own thing without being diluted further into a product. My heart doesn't cry when I can't look at, like, Madoka while playing a wizard poker game I also really like. I don't want everything to turn into a crossover nightmare hodgepodge frictionless gruel. It's hard to imagine that this will 'kill' magic (by all $$ metrics it's probably gonna make it the greatest its ever been), but for me and myself it's pretty much over... :

[@Unormalism]

A traditional magic set tells a story. What story will "Spiderman" or "Final Fantasy" tell? To avoid this question being rhetorical; they won't tell a story, just retell a story, maybe tell new side stories, but a set won't be a story in of itself. Second, you touched on the point with Spiderman being set on earth, but do you know what Spiderman also is missing? Elves. There's a couple of goblins but I don't think they qualify for the type, and I'm sure there would be at least one zombie in there, probably a devil too, but no dragons. Iconic creature types cannot be represented in universes beyond. This can have a knock on effect in standard where sets based around types don't get coverage in their adjacent sets. All of this is a point of aesthetics. But it does gut me inside to know that Magic: The Gathering is moving away from being it's only fantasy stories and setting to become "Game System for any popular media".

[@yurisei6732]

They laid off half their story team in anticipation of having fewer stories to tell.

[@Unormalism]

@@yurisei6732 Depressing and probably true

[@lracseroom8286]

@@Unormalism depressing and factual. Best part? They did it right before X-mas.

[@brunoyudi9555]

you can tell the entire story with a single SpongeBob card "hello i like money"

[@CoreysCards]

Tbh the writing in spongebob surpasses the writing in magic. I say this in jest, but then I recall the cannon War of the Spark novel, and now I say this wholeheartedly.

[@yurisbest2892]

As someone who plays both yugioh and commander, I’m glad Konami only does subtle references to their own properties every so often, instead of blatant crossovers

[@yurisei6732]

It's crazy that Yugioh, the game where most archetypes are disconnected from each other, and many of them are direct references to pop culture, retained its thematic cohesion longer than MTG, the game that used to have a huge and interconnected story, did.

[@Giriko3490]

3:12 it still has the identity of magic though to a degree. Baldur's Gate, dnd and LotR make sense, 40k raises a brow but to a degree it fits..... Walking Dead, Fallout and Jurassic Park are ridiculous. To say nothing of Marvel.... and none of that comes even close to stupidity of..... spongebob in mtg. Gotta draw the line somewhere

[@jojojo9240]

nicely said

[@TarnaxTheBarbarian]

MtG may not be fnancially dead, but i think its soul sure its. Honestly, I wouldnt be surprised if in a few years you see corporate products in cards. Imagine tapping 1G for an artifact called "MTN DEW".

[@ryanrodgers3099]

9:56 Oh my god yes! Honestly my biggest gripe with running UB cards. The borders stick out like a sore thumb and not in a cool unique way like special versions do. Just... gross. As far as UB is concerned, I don't hate that they're going to be standard legal (I think having fewer direct-to-modern/legacy/etc. sets make it at least simpler for newer players to get into standard). I *am* pretty upset that they're now going to take up fully half of all of the sets we get, and presumably even more than half of the secret lairs that we get. There's so much cool stuff to explore in the magic IP that I'm sad that we're going to get less and less of it :/

[@ArceusShaymin]

I would like to point out that, comparatively, we're only receiving "less Universes Within sets" relative to the past few years of Magic, where accelerated product lines brought us a frankly unreasonable amount of product that pretty much nobody could follow. 3 Standard sets per year is about on par with where we were almost a decade ago. Honestly? That's pretty relieving to me. Finally slowing down on the product I care about.

[@ryanrodgers3099]

@@ArceusShaymin Yeah, maybe it's cause for optimism. It had been 3 standard sets + core set every year for ages until they ramped things up.

[@dotmp3883]

i really wish they just did the old UB design of secret lair with like 6-8 unique cards that get reprinted as magic cards in a few months :(

[@dotmp3883]

like UB is still very obviously just ads but at least with the reprints i can then use the game pieces without being an unpaid billboard

[@PositiveBlackSoul]

I think an important difference between 40k and Lord of the Rings and other UB, at least to me is that 40k kind of felt like a more self-contained side game with magic Rules and the art of 40k translating quite well onto a Magic Card. A lot of the art depicting demons, monsters or killer robots helped too. Meanwhile LotR had it's own art direction and take on characters largely independent of other visual representations like the movies. Frodo was Frodo and not Elijah Wood as Frodo drawn on a Magic card. They lost that wither other UB sets. Doctor Who to me feels rather uncanny and Fallout and AC doesn't feel like it's actually doing anything interesting with depicting it's characters. Granted those contracts are probably a lot tighter in how much creative freedom they have, but still. I think UB would be received a lot more positively, even as a main line product if they were aesthetically more interesting and less "advertisement" and WizCo tried to work with IPs that allow artists to be more creative with the works.

[@disbarredg0]

Only thing I'd say, hard disagree about the border. Not because I like it, I agree that it's kinda ugly, I just like it as a failsafe that keeps me from the temptation of adding UB cards to stuff lol

[@33elk]

based. LOL

[@caedmonr112]

Correct take

[@modx5534]

I WILL swords to plowshares a spongebob card, no matter how good it is, because I am just that petty ;)

[@MinstrelSauce]

You're not alone. I stock my decks with removal so I can hate on anything UB

[@nikolaitheundying]

Sounds like an easy decoy play so I can roll out my Sheoldred, Apocalypse without fear of removal.

[@brendans1983]

You do realise they will make Spongebob hexproof for that exact reason.

[@MinstrelSauce]

@@brendans1983 this is why shadow spear

[@Thoughtmage100]

​@@brendans1983Obligatory SpongeBob with Ward 4.

[@LaRenuille]

My thing with getting newbies into commander as a "casual format" is that most newbies that me and my wife teach get confused as hell with commander. Due to the format being singleton, it's hard to get familiarized with the mechanics because every card is a different mechanic. Unlike a 60-card format, it's easy to grasp certain playstyles (red burn / aggro, black / blue control, white swarm, green stompy) because there's multiples of the same card. Not to mention there's also a ton of pubstompers in EDH lol, an LGS near our place has people playing T3/T4 decks vs newbies with precons. 60-card may not be a casual format but it sure as hell a good point to start newbies and if they are competitive enough they can get into Standard, Pio or Modern. I enjoy magic's lore but people are going too crazy about the TCG dying due to UB. For me MTG is just a card game and I play it because I like the mechanics and playstyle. I don't care if I have mishra's warform copying a Nautiloid space ship or a Thunderhawk Gunship. If those cards are fun to play for me, I'll use them. Since people are into using proxies anyway, just modify and print ones with retro or same borders.

[@ThatMillGuyShaf]

Goated take on the shine

[@Iker888]

It’s not dying, it’s not the end of the world, but I will sorely miss the old Magic.

[@FoxNoctom]

Oh hey thats my Roxanne alter! (its an unfinished sketch btw lol) UB's don't bother me at all, you association to fanmade materiel is a correct comparison.

[@33elk]

when i was writing the script and talkin' about alters i knew you were going to be the example for it lol

[@yurisei6732]

Fanmade cards are nowhere near analogous. Fan cards are an expression of creativity and passion. Even if I don't like the IP you've chosen to depict, I respect your enthusiasm and admire your talent. Buying overpriced cards that happen to have pictures of licensed IP characters on them is just unbridled consumerism.

[@33elk]

@@yurisei6732 You fail to understand I agree with you lol. I was making that point alongside the tuning out the external ip argument. I do it with alters, so i can do it with ub as well. I don't like UB, but i dont gotta care.

[@lracseroom8286]

You're not much of an artist. It's ugly AF. I'm more than happy to stand on the other end of the debate over UB than someone who approves of UB because it somehow validates them personally in their hobby that they absolutely are garbage at.

[@lracseroom8286]

@@yurisei6732 I mean, let's call a spade a spade...his alter is crap. It's about *this* much better, visually, than drawing stickmen on a card.

[@Throwaway-p2p]

"everyone hated it, but engagement had doubled"

[@bluesight_]

You can still avoid UB if you're playing Premodern 😏 and would LOVE seeing more cube vids

[@kateanon8791]

As a casual-mid Limited player for most of my Magic playing, the fact that Final Fantasy and Spider-Man are going to be the primary Draft set for 2 months each out of the year means I'm going to probably be just not drafting for 4-6 months (depending on whatever that third set is) of the year, and my tentative steps into Standard from last year are just going to lead to nothing

[@lracseroom8286]

As an EDH-only player (I played competitive formats on and off since '94 but gave up for good around 2015) I feel bad for you. As it stands I rarely see UB cards in the wild besides The One Ring (which, at least, is Fantasy). I have a friend who owns a Zangief deck but everything besides the commander pretty much is Magic flavored. I can't imagine Wizard's telling me, as they are standard and draft, players: "Play the Spider-Man cards or go home" Honestly, I'd go home.

[@DeWillpower]

even if there are a lot of actions taken by wotc that are clearly bad, i still don't know where to be in all of this. what i noticed in this confusion is that people focus on the possibility of playing with or against decks that have cards of many IPs in one deck, so i consider a deck that includes cards from only one IP to still be fine (like your unmodified precon).

[@qwormuli77]

Honestly, it's pretty respectable to not immediately jump into lockstep with one faction or another in situations like these. Generally, more time in the oven makes for a more nuanced take.

[@randomaether]

I hate UB, my favourite media are final fantasy and tekken, and I am not excited about having to either buy ff and spiderman and whatever the hell comes next to standard or get kicked out of my main format. This just feels like adds.

[@AutumnReel4444]

It is an ad. Magic is an ad.

[@rafaeldefier]

I do think MTG, as a product, is dying and the cause is corporate greed. But the game will continue to live on just fine, specially eternal formats like edh and cube.

[@yurisei6732]

Other way round, MTG the game is dying, MTG the consumable product is doing fine. Attendance at locals has dropped significantly, but profits are higher than ever. People are still buying in anticipation of playing, but then getting to Friday evening and feeling they've got something better to do than play MTG.

[@Засотнюваэропортпоехали]

If you're not embarrassed by turning a game with its own style, flavor, and entourage into an inarticulate soup for anyone and everyone, it's worth supporting the transformation of the entire gaming industry into a single lump of substance. One game for every taste! You may to shoot Shreks from the ass of Rainbow Dash, you may to eat Disney princesses with a xenomorph... It would be a great game for everyone!

[@CoolTrainerJulio]

Lol sounds like Ready Player One

[@Засотнюваэропортпоехали]

@@CoolTrainerJulio indeed. Fan service for fan service.

[@reecam1158]

Yo, my Spider-Man custom is in the video! But yeah I totally get the "ad" feel and the aesthetic dissonance in some IPs merging with the fantasy of MTG (even if the Fantasy can be of various genres and aesthetics like Kamigawa or others recently) Even if I made those Spider-Man cards, I am kinda weirded out by the idea of having actual Spider-Man in standard and maybe even relevant in tournament play. I guess it helps new players getting into standard games, and even if I understand it I still don't like the idea of having a Marvel vs Capcom ordeal in Magic...the UB selection of IPs will be crucial to how it will be received by the community.

[@yurisei6732]

You're right that the choice of IP is critical. We saw with the Doctor Who, Lord of the Rings, and Fallout sets loads of people who were staunchly anti-UB going "this one is different because I like this one". Didn't happen for Assassin's Creed because no one likes Assassin's Creed that much. There's still a big problem though - they're only able to choose between capturing a narrow "western movie/video games culture" audience or capturing an audience of low-commitment people who like one specific IP and ignore everything else. If they go the first route, they can create a playerbase that's interested in most of their sets, but it'll be a small playerbase because anyone who doesn't like one or more major Disney IPs is going to get repulsed by the stench of them. If they go the latter route and make sets covering a range of IP niches, they'll be able to cast a wide net, but the players they catch will lose interest quickly because future sets interesting them will be infrequent, and it'll become a solitaire-feel game where the norm is to ignore your opponent's deck. In other words, their target audience either can be "people who like most of mainstream western culture", that being the people who were just as excited for Spiderman as they were for Fallout and LOTR and Warhammer and Jurassic Park, and who will be just as excited for Final Fantasy and Star Wars and Halo; or it can be "everyone", but where each person only buys into one set every three years.

[@lracseroom8286]

"I guess it helps new players getting into standard games" It doesn't and it won't. It will just lead to Standard being even more niche than it is right now. Also, thanks for helping give WotC the idea.

[@lracseroom8286]

@@yurisei6732 as if every person who likes these IP buy this crap. It's only the Funko Neckbeard Virgin types who need to collect everything with an IP's name slapped on it who, outside of MTG fans who also like the IP, are buying this...well, them and the Cardboard Crackhead types who have to spend every single dollar and waking moment they have on MTG. Example: My wife LOVES Fallout and LotR. UB she's bought? A LotR Bundle *for me* because I wanted a copy of Galadriel's Dismissal. They (WotC) and you are buying FAR too much into this "new players" garbage they're peddling.

[@reecam1158]

@@lracseroom8286 Not like I gave them this idea, do you have any idea how long these kinds of contracts and collaborations take to solidify into something like a product? Also, I really don't agree with the idea of Standard becoming more niche just because of UB. On the contrary, new people will get into Magic and find a good standard overall (I hope). The only bad part of it is the flavor, but I don't doubt that gameplay wise it will change much and won't turn Standard into a niche. I think you're just as pissed as I am at the thought of having other IPs in standard, but you should really direct that anger elsewhere and not at me who never thought they would put these things into Standard of all things when I made those cards a year ago lol

[@lracseroom8286]

@@reecam1158 Yeah, I thought *you* specifically gave them the idea. JFC people are thick. I meant the entire movement of defacing cards...sorry, alters being *at all* lucrative is a contributing factor to this mess. "I want a Spider-Man card!" WTF are you? 8? Please go back to admiring your Funko and action figures.

[@chrisbenson6753]

“It’s like putting up a billboard in a nice park”. Extremely well put.

[@Nakpat5897]

The reason we get to have rats flying helicopters is for UB to fit in. The hyper modernised settings feel like a conscious ploy to broaden MTG's identity to the point where whatever crossover they pull doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. Do some out there cyberpunky stuff, do a couple sets inspired by the twentieth century, and suddenly UB blends in quite a bit better. Excellent takes in general. UB does just translate to game pieces in practice. I was a staunch UB hater until I hit up Scryfall on the lookout for some nice tramplers for my Saryth and Neverwinter Hydra sat there, nestled between other cards. A guy in my group also "helped" quite a bit, as he built the 40K demon commander and the Sauron. And playing against them was still just playing EDH as it turns out. The most recent deck I built has three different UBs represented. Also the fact there will now be six standard sets in 2025 is the real problem, yes. If they keep up this release schedule, by late 2027 we'll have 19 sets in standard, whereas historically we used to have 8 (now 12 in a flailing attempt at staying afloat). In the current model you'd sometimes see the Q2 set be pushed to be relevant in the crowded surroundings, suggesting that sets are all the more likely to engage in one-upmanship to stay afloat and bad power creep times incoming. Also thank you for being a KZbin anomaly and producing well-argued, concise content of a manageable length. You've become my first MTG-related subscription since Gavin Verhey made a channel.

[@MRemopantalones]

I'm not gonna lie, I highly doubt that the fallout on Modo issue was considered a feature and not a bug to suits in WotC

[@33elk]

@@MRemopantalones I tried to keep my tinfoil hat off in the video but I understand the theory

[@qwormuli77]

@@33elk I too dislike going for the tinfoil hat too headily, but now-a-days I dislike the fact more, that the things that tinfoil hat whispers tend to be correct with increasing frequency. I fear the day that blasted thing starts undershooting the wild horror stories.

[@shmackydoo]

Yes! Thank you! Aesthetics is super important to me as a deck builder. I care about it more than others in my playgroup

[@pencilswordfish]

So happy I finally got into Cube a year or so ago. I feel a little isolated and safe from this madness.

[@Alucard_Ander]

It's not died but dying and people not standing against WOTC like the D&D fan base did is the reason

[@Blairrows]

My one and only grievance is about the fact that my opponents are paying money to inject advertisements into a middle of a game of Magic with me. I love LotR, Fallout, Spiderman, etc., but looking at those UB cards makes me feel especially hollow. There is no "but I would totally empty my pockets for a..." UB set. It just feels like there's no escape from a relentless assault of brand deals, popup ads, and marketing schemes anywhere in my life anymore. It's agonizing being constantly reminded that I'm nothing but a potential consumer that just hasn't been parted from her money for [brand] yet. It's insidious. These sets are clearly well made. The designs are some of the freshest we've seen, the nods to the lore in gameplay are clever, and the aesthetics are incredible. LotR was one of the best draft environments we've seen. But a well made ad is still an ad, and I can't simply look past that just because it shines. (Speaking of which, I also hate that shiny border, but I'd prefer they keep it so I can use it like the pattern of a dangerous snake so I can instinctively recognize I should avoid them.)

[@ogre7699]

How long until players figure out how to install an adblock to a card game?

[@Russian_engineer_bmstu]

​@@ogre7699 they already do,there are in-universe proxies for quite a few of ub cards

[@lracseroom8286]

@@ogre7699 easy enough really. I know multiple regular playgroups where a hard and fast "no UB" Rule Zero is in place.

[@x64hitcombo]

It felt like a disservice remove cards from my Fallout deck. Artists worked to make sure the whole deck felt cohesive, while design needed to leave opening for upgrading. Ultimately i made my own Fallout themed proxies of cards lole Goblin Engineer and Aetherworks Marvel, and it was a very fun process that was more rewarding to me than just putting in-universe versed in

[@Sans-ft4en]

9:57 Noooooo, I love the shine! Well, agree to disagree I suppose 😂

[@Ridelith]

I came to this video expecting vitriol. I was pleasantly surprised this was, indeed, a measured response.

[@icholi88]

Never been a better justification to just buy a proxy, I don't care if spongebob is meta, I just want his rules and reskin him into something that's not humiliating.

[@lracseroom8286]

TBH. As someone who likes neither, Dr. Who is every bit as humiliating as SpongeBob. They just have different energy. Adults who like Dr. Who: Stick me in a locker Energy. Adults who like SpongeBob: Don't let me babysit your kids Energy.

[@Digi-Tanuki]

Thank you for acknowledging the importance of aesthetics in a game. That's why whenever I want to run a Universes Beyond card in any of my decks, I instead proxy a custom Universes Within version and use that. Likewise the only UB deck I use is one that I made from scratch using entirely custom proxies of the story in question. I don't mind crossovers existing (especially when I know multiple people who first got into Magic because of a UB set or deck with something they loved), but the sheer volume of it now, and blending it all together into a Fortnight-esque IP soup... that's the thing I really hate.

[@rjswonson]

Spiderman is very special to me, when I was younger I read every single issue of The Ultimate Spiderman. As a black man it was an early form of representation in my life that has stuck with me. That doesn't mean I want to be summoning Miles Morales in standard. The things I enjoy are best in isolation. Rather than tossing the ice cream in with the steak.

[@emiliatuominen3785]

My philosophy with UB is that if I'm putting UB cards into my deck, I'm going all in for that specific universe. I have a beloved Dr who deck that's all Dr who permanents (some minor non-UB card draw instants and sorceries excluded) Outside of those decks, I don't run any UB cards in my decks

[@windstormstrike]

The Walking Dead was the worst way WOTC/Hasbro started off UB, it left a sour taste in everyone’s mouth…BUT let’s not forget that the venturing into UB also brought us the LOTR franchise into MTG as well and if we’re all honest WE ALL WANTED THAT.

[@lucasschigart2721]

Couldn't have said it better. Every single word I agree on. Especially the closer.

[@namekanal3897]

LotR UB looked good and felt at home in MtG, because they share a common theme and line of cultural heritage. LotR is somewhat the grandfather of MtG. European mythology inspired Lord of the Rings, which inspired DnD, which inspired MtG. They all share a certain mystique and grimness, something unfathomable. The mix in of modern American plastic asthetic makes MtG become exactly that. Another hollow, easily consumable plastic product like the Marvel franchise has been for the last years.

[@mitchhak2]

I kind of hope Daybreak doesn’t renew any contracts. Having a place (MTGO) without the UB cards would be a breath of fresh air!

[@noneofyourbusiness3288]

The game is fine. They killed the IP though. I feel like the IP was already struggling. Putting the same troop of Planeswalkers wearing different costumes into every set was a horrible design decision. The Avenger-style story telling was also a big miss for me personally. However now with UB making up half of the game ... yeah, its over. Magic the Gathering has lost its lore and flair. I hate being forced to play (and play against) UB cards in constructed formats. Pushes me further towards limited. Aint no UB card ever going to touch my cube. Nah not gonna happen.

[@grandpretredesalpagas4665]

if you heart sways that way, i'm sure a senchi alter of yagra eater of all would work quite well

[@addambarcelos]

Funny coincidence, a friend of mine built an eloise deck full proxies, just to make it bloodborne themed.

[@navigator-4913]

If I’m being entirely honest, I think that ub is fantastic at a baseline, it invites newer players to try the game (happened with the fallout ub with one of my friends) it celebrates other fantasy and sci-fi series, and encourages die hard mtg fans to expand their horizons

[@warninja288]

I agree with a lot of what you said in this video. Do you think the public reception of UB would be better if it was seperated from Magic with a different card back?

[@Felixr2]

If it has a different card back, it would not be legal in any format. There's already a way for them to do that: the acorn stamp (and before that, the silver border). If all UB cards were acorn stamped, I doubt anyone would have a problem with them.

[@warninja288]

@Felixr2 Why wouldn't a different card back work? Sleeves have been necessary since Innistrad.The only formats that would be affected are chaos draft and some really casual kitchen table players.

[@Felixr2]

@@warninja288 Having a different card back would make it impossible to legally have the card in your deck without using opaque sleeves. Current mentality is still that this is to be avoided. Even for double-faced-cards they make official substitutes with standard card back where you fill in the names of both faces on the front side. But alright, let's say the cards got a different card back but would be legal in some formats. This functionally changes nothing about any of the complaints people have and only adds another thing to complain about. I don't see how that solves anything.

[@jamesvonderhaar2553]

I’m a lapsed player who was brought back into the fold by Bloomburrow. I only play limited. The new release format has me excited for six completely different limited formats a year, which will both add more variety and dull the pain of a flopped limited format. If I ever decide I just want limited Magic, no outside IPs required, I can just draft those formats.

[@CoreysCards]

I'm going to echo a sentiment that was very popular way back when UB first began: Magic being the property to take on all these IPs, without succesfully exporting their own IP in exchange, shows us that these crossovers are for NON magic players, not for us. The draw has always been to get new players, not maintain current ones. So, the more obviously you push this message, the more you do crossover IPs, the less identity your own property has, and the less likely your own IP will be exported in the future. Lets say you own a house, and you invite 100 guests over, but you never kick a guest out, and I mean never, then at that rate, the biggest loser in the group is the one who owns the house, because all party goes have equal access to the house, but only the owner is paying the bill.

[@nickalasmontano1496]

I'd love some cube videos!

[@gray2733]

10:01 OMFG I thought I was the only one who hated the UB border lol, no one in my groups seems to care about this and it sets me off. Also I'm okayer if I could actually buy the product... Like Secret Lairs don't usually comes often to Latin America >.> like standard sets do

[@tommyleemeyer]

I don't mind UB content. I don't mind that it's legal in tournament play. Ultimately, my relationship with the game and with the story has nothing to do with the sets that aren't "Magic". The day that we start to see Spongebob Planeswalk to Innistrad is when I'll probably stop consuming the most current content. Having said that, I think the new release schedule is closer to what we've been wanting for the last few years, which is less product. Now we only have 4 core sets-1 per quarter-and 1 remaster/commander/modern product. Compare that to 2022 where there were 6 or 7 core sets and UB sets and commander sets. If you don't want to pay attention to the UB sets and only pay attention to the core sets, this is a much better schedule, in my opinion.

[@galactica_2]

I feel like silver boarder would make everyone happy. Commander players can just rule 0 them in, constructed players don’t have to worry about UB, and it means, as someone who doesnt care about marvel, i dont have to put dr octopus in my standard deck

[@russellcammarata9819]

I think one of the worst pieces of collateral damage here, for me at least, is content creators. I don't play competitive formats, but there's some channels I really enjoy that do. I'm not gonna watch them just to have ads for marvel and final fantasy thrown at me, though.

[@jessehunter362]

1) Probably the biggest appeal, and one of the bigger frustrations with UB is seeing a character rendered in Magic style- if it vibes it really vibes and if it doesn't it *really doesn't*. 2) Wotc's status as Creator Of Magic gives extra weight to these decisions they're making. If a fellow fan makes these decisions for their fanmade cards, they're just A Fellow Fan, there isn't that... power imbalance intensifying things. 3) Wotc needs to return to making important characters non-legendary.... it would improve so many things.

[@masterowl123]

honestly the thing I'm just so tired about is this 'crossover cuture' is just.. everywhere. everything you like is getting a crossover with something else wether you like it or not, and it hurts the identily of the thing in the end. that world that you love feels just 'lesser' now that you know spiderman can just pop in and say hi. I guess I could also 'tune out' UB cards but , that really just feels like running away from them. how long will that last? It's what people said to do and what I did with the walking dead cards. Ignored them, but now that half of all magic next year is going to be that? and you're asking me to just 'tune' all that out?

[@dewey8015]

This take seems really disingenuous. "You can avoid UB by just not playing it": HALF of all cards made for magic the gathering for the foreseeable future will be UB. This might be true for now, but how long until the next commander staple is The Mothercrystal from FF, or Madame Web from Spiderman? If i am willingly tuning the power of my decks lower than would be normal with autoincludes like arcane signet or sol ring, how long does it take before i can't compete with the deckbuilding restrictions I've put in place for myself?

[@Magnafiend]

Totally agree with HALF the sets being UB is WAY too much. How they've done it in the past with things like 40K or Fallout where it was mostly geared towards commander or casual play with getting people into the format is where I would have preferred things to stay... but... [Insert Mr. Krabs "I like money" meme here]

[@TheRealLachlan]

I was a vorthos player. I've got a Kamahl and jeska deck. All innistrad zombies and vampires decks. I dip in and out depending on how interesting I think the lore of the set is. I guess I really don't need to worry about product fatigue now.

[@Ktjnn]

We are at the point where anything you can think of for a crossover is entirely plausible. I'm just waiting on the Adventure Time collab so I can Floop the Pig in Magic.

[@grip7777]

I’d probably love a dark souls set until I thought about it, more specifically why they must use what I love to get me to give them money for cardboard that they could instead make a part of a bigger magic universe.

[@zacharia4061]

That final bye, GOD DAMN, thank you :D sorry I mean buying with your wallet is hampered but not dead for modern or standerd players as buying singles really only encourges pack opening when cards are $5+ so when the new ragavan is printed then yes your either playing that color and supporting that set even if you didn't want to but that will not be every set every time there is plenty of times where a new set comes out and it just adds some more good enough cards into a deck rather than having some high end singles.

[@Sneedstein]

I like how Yugioh, a game with space ships, knights of the round table, athletes, and lolis will soon have a more consistent style and flavor than MtG

[@hannahbriarly4192]

This is not a new observation but I do think about what will happen if a universes beyond card turns out to be super broken or toxic. You wonder if they will be unwilling (or maybe even contractually unable?) to pass bans to prioritize format health

[@vwoosh4987]

I do miss the days of Nicol Bolas. Where there was an in universe plot. However, I play online with friends and rarely buy cards irl, and when I do, it's singles or big sets like double masters. I'm not moved either way, but it does "fail the vibe check."

[@vwoosh4987]

PLEASE MAKE CUBE TUTORIAL. I wanna build one with friends but don't know what's a good idea.

[@xfighters3913]

I started disliking UB when they announced not one but TWO marvel products. MTG isn't dead but the MTG universe is. Heck the in universe stuff we get now is just iconic characters playing dress up.

[@origaminosferatu3357]

I've always thought UB should be a casual only thing and commander decks work great at keeping it contained so that it doesn't dilute the rest of mtg's aesthetic. Having said that, I'll never complain if someone plays a UB card against me.

[@AutumnReel4444]

It is dead to me, a player who has engaged with magic for full on over 10,000 hours. Sold my MTGO cards and unsubscribed form all the podcasts and youtube channels that are mtgo related to help me go cold turkey. I taught my kids and my fiancee this game. I loved this game. I won my first tournaments in this game. I have spent more time thinking about Magic cards than I have doing any other hobby, but I do not play advertisements. I quit OW when it became an ad. There are thousands of great games out there that succeed by being great, while others exist by selling commercial slots. Magic doesn't fall in the prior category anymore, it is firmly in the latter. I am out. Good luck y'all. Call me whatever you want I will never read it. I am serious and will deeply miss this community that was so kind and accepting to me (Love you Penny Dreadful, love y'all). I have cried many times. I loved Magic. Dungrove Elder, my first rare; Lurrus, my first tournament winning card; and Knight of Autumn, my namesake; goodbye.

[@Shark-Fist]

Can I just say thank you for *actually* having a measured response? All of the doomposting this past week and change has been exhausting generally, and even moreso as someone who genuinely enjoys UB

[@33elk]

I'm in the same boat brother. Every change seems to "KILL MAGIC." Never has. Tired of the doomer rhetoric!! No more doom!

[@Doxicyclin]

i got into mtg due to the lore and the gameplay that came with it. all these crossovers broke my immersion and I find myself playing less and less

[@Waffletigercat]

Universes Beyond isn’t killing Magic. But goddamn is power creep and release speed doing a good job of killing it. I’m so tired of going to a prerelease event, only for the very next week one of my friends texts me a card from the next upcoming set that would be great for one of my decks. Jesus Christ, it’s too much, too fast.

[@SpellSlinger07]

In my LGS i saw a rising amount of UB cards/pre-cons when playing casual commander. This is a store where they almost only play commander (apart from events). Being a person who enjoys the lore and storytelling of MTG I thought "maybe this format isn't for me anymore" and i simply started playing more standard and pioneer. But now with ALL future UB sets being standard legal, I don't know where to go now when I want to play with MAGICS cards, characters etc. I myself am also a fan of some of the IPs they have Magicified (Doctor Who, Marvel...) but separate. I love Magics lore, storytelling settings and worlds, and i feel those are slowly disappearing :(

[@Aviyarn]

so THATS why you asked for the cake on discord lol

[@Wyattoons]

Card games in general really need to chill out one how many sets they throw at us per year. It’s getting nuts, we barely get to have time to actually enjoy and play with the new cards before newer ones get thrown at us.

[@xaeoxic7328]

UB throws me off when it doesn't feel "magic" enough. Like... Acrobatic cheerleader and a few other duskmourn stuff gives me the same feeling a lot of the UB I see do as well. I honestly have no problem with most of the marvel stuff aside from maybe iron man, but once I saw them in game I kinda just signed and went... Yeah, it does make sense kinda. Again with the duskmourn stuff it felt off and not really grounded, but valgavoth and a lot of the scarier stuff in that set were fantastic and rubbed me the RIGHT way rather than wrong. That's kinda the idea though, in magic stuff has to feel like it fits in and matches the vibe. SpongeBob does not, and I'm afraid a spiderman set will give me the same energy. Assassins creed and lord of the rings were pretty solid and grounded, especially LoTR. Assassins creed had the weird scifi stuff, but other than that it was dope! Felt like a set grounded in magic even though it wasn't. I won't shame people for playing what they think is fun, I will shame magic for advocating for those weird out of universe designs, and pushing to implement them everywhere. Why we're seeing SpongeBob or fortnite or transformers or what not before we get to see stuff like final fantasy, fire emblem, monster hunter, diablo, any of the Souls games (elden ring would be sick) just doesn't make sense to me, and at that would being far far more attention and respect because they fit into the theme of the pre established world. Lord of the rings feels like if you took some of our magic characters and slammed them into that world as a "plane" it would just WORK. Like gandalf as a Planeswalker and yeah the planeswalkers that go there would feel out of place on the plane, but that's how it always is! If chandra went to kaldheim it would feel weird, and sorin to kaladesh?? I'm just spit balling with planeswalkers just going to places you know, but the point is that a world should make sense, it shouldn't stretch very far. I'm worried about the race car set and the space opera set. Bloomburrow, dusk, and outlaws were all a stretch, but they stayed pretty close and felt fun for what they were. A space opera might just push outside the boundaries.

[@lancesmith8298]

I do expect the extreme pace of UB releases to Standard to be anywhere from unsustainable to lethal to the game, and for them to slow down by next year, but there is one point I’d like to push back on, which is the possibility of even more legendary creatures being printed. Thing is, a lot, A LOT of the bulk of new commanders being printed aren’t even built with EDH in mind. They are uncommon, two color, mediocre value pieces that are already done better, like Abuelo from Ixalan. At a glance, they’re just budget commanders, but the truth is that they’re draft signposts you can’t play more than one of. They’re a name and face to a draft strategy. It’s an old design tactic, but with roughly a decade of Limited design behind it.

[@domicci4460]

I dont like the 6 sets a year for standered its just way to many set for standered

[@maximillianhallett3055]

I miss blocks.

[@domicci4460]

@maximillianhallett3055 blocks were cool

[@robertomacetti7069]

Personally I don't really care about what's drawn on the card and its name A mechanically interesting card is a card I like Everything else is secondary

[@LuxViolet0022]

2:48 Considering how many systems are on the 3/3 Elk Discord, yeah very true in more ways than one lmao

[@casketbase7750]

Flavor is a personal thing you need to make your own peace with. I dislike playing Hand Of Vecna in my Feather deck not because it's universes beyond, but because it's *evil.* And Feather is not. That's the type of flavor that matters to me. To understand self expression, you must first understand yourself.

[@ThePretzelPrince]

"You can just not play them, if you don't want to." Which is true, i don't, but that's always the standard reply to these kinds of things. I don't, but i can't, and won't, control what other people play. If i see Cloud commander equipped with a lightsaber, fighting against a Tony Stark and Spongebob Squarepants decks, i'm gonna start to have some thoughts. I do like stuff like Warhammer, Final Fantasy, Lord of the Rings, because those actually feel pretty fitting. They're a nice addition, along with being thematically appropriate, but they're not really taking over the whole board. I rarely see any of these, maybe besides LotR. But with half of these, they're just... egh. It's all a bit too much.

[@wesley147208]

Thanks for your opinion on the current UB situation. I'm going to ramble, apologies... 2025 is going to feel packed with releases. In addition to the six standard sets, we also get Innistrad Remastered in January, but that's probably not going to make much of a buzz in the mtg hivemind. Mark Rosewater said that there are no other sets for that year, but things like Ravnica: Clue Edition, auxiliary products, may be included. I already treat most cards as game pieces so I'm not as affected by UB aesthetics, which is a bit of a shame because cards can be more than their textbox. I'm slightly worried that I won't be able to keep up with standard releases on Arena. I'm worried that the standard meta will be in a constant state of flux because deck builders won't be able to digest the cards. I do feel like a frog in boiling water, but the unknown UB set had better be good if it had to displace Return to Lorwyn.

[@seanbyles6996]

This announcement just pushed me over the edge to seel my collection, j had been thinking about it for a while but I really don't want to play the corporate Funko pop card game

[@imaginarymatter]

Eh, I'm fine with it. No UB card has been as grating as something like Mirrodin Avenged which is just a constant reminder that Wizards ruined Elesh Norn's character in the story and then decapitated her.

[@rats_and_lilies]

I play exclusively EDH, soI don't usually care about them and I'll sometimes run UB stuff in decks that want them if they do what I want them to and don't look too out of place. I don't like that they're standard legal now because of what you said about forcing people who wouldn't have to/want to see them to have to deal with them and it'll make them even more expensive for casual players who want them. All of that said, I do really hope the Final Fantasy set has Exdeath since FF5 was my first Final Fantasy. I don't even care what he does, tbh.

[@AlexofZippo]

Magic might not be dead, magic might not be done. But I am done with Magic. I don’t care, because they don’t seem to care. I’m out.

[@domsilvestri8681]

Imo, magic’s aesthetic peaked at war of the spark. That set had it all. Magic needs another Nicol Bolas to get the Gatewatch back together.

[@ogre7699]

I'm gonna be honest. Whilst I didnt' initially dislike UB, I do think it should remain more of a niche thing, rather than half the sets we're gonna be getting every year. Like one, MAYBE two a year, I'd be fine with. More importantly, I don't want them being made effectively better than the usual cards you'd run in a typical Magic deck. If it means they're not legal anywhere else but Commander, so be it, but if WotC actually give enough of a shit to try and balance their UB cards to not be strictly better than your typical Magic focused cards, all the power to them, please keep doing it, and by that point, I'd be fine seeing them in other formats. But never to the detriment to people who don't care about UB, like myself. Depressingly though, even regular Magic sets have also become increasing levels of shite lately. Thunder Junction and even Duskmourn are sets that miss the mark for varied reasons, and then we're getting space ships and motorcycles too. The only actually Magic set we're getting next year is Tarkir. WotC just seems to dislike the idea of just making a regular Magic set these days, apparently. ...I will give them this though, I could now make a deck themed around the meme of "card games on motorcycles." Silver lining, but funny is still funny. And I do like me some funny.

[@bengisclips]

9:58 yessss someone gets it

[@kristadisgumundsdottir3658]

I would be happy with on UB set a year and it would be nice if that would be The Colour of Magic / Light Fantastic.

[@SSolemn]

I will take the handful of UB cards I own out of my Commander decks. I need a real detox from UB, and I will draw the line there. Now I'm only playing Pre Release events from Universes Within and buying singles from them.