Let's Rank Mana Rocks! | EDHRECast 297

[@samcates5308]

This episode rocks

[@bradblair3318]

This totally leaves me tapped out.

[@jeffreylong1478]

Dad jokes are the heart and Sol of this show

[@anthonycrew2239]

That is quite the sediment

[@mmmmmq]

Yea they really ramped up the show quality

[@brendans1983]

Episode of the year

[@TheGtDragoon]

I actually recommend everflowing challice in decks with a higher mana curve honestly. Being able to hit the small ramp and the big ramp on the same card is too good to ignore.

[@marcusmyers4822]

For me, at worst it’s a free artifact on board for use with sacrifices or 1 free blue mana in my urza deck, on average it’s a 2 drop mana rock, and at best, i can dump in a lot of spare mana one turn late game to give me a big boost in mana.

[@marleykirton]

I run a nasty combo with chalice, sol ring and hullbreaker horror. Tap sol ring for 2, play chalice for 0 bouncing sol ring, play sol ring for 1 bouncing chalice then tap for 2 an repeat. When you get bored of making colourless you can sink all of it into chalice with multikicker so you don't even need to do the combo every turn

[@boikman]

Yeah chalice is pretty awesome for exactly the reasons you said. I started playing it because I built an Urza deck and obviously there it's busted because Urza turns it into a Mox Pearl, but that deck also made me realize how nice it is to get it mid/late game and not have it feel totally dead because you can cast it as a 2/3 mana rock.

[@honestthink2171]

For proliferate decks i like replicant ring also

[@zacdredge3859]

There's also a hidden effect on Chalice: 'At any time an opponent would Proliferate you may negotiate to get extra mana.'

[@JoshuaShewmaker]

I think its important to mention exactly why Alaundo doesnt work with cards with time counters. Time travel specifically says permanents. Alaundo just exiles the cards and they are not permanents any where but the battlefield. So while they are in exile they wouldnt count for the permanent part of time travel

[@mmmmm777x]

Thank you! I was so confused by that, haha!

[@ospero7681]

Putting that another way, while Alaundo functionally does the same thing as the suspend mechanic, it doesn't actually say anything about suspend, so time travel can't affect the cards that way either. EDIT: Just re-read Alaundo, and the time counters don't come off automatically, so it's not functionally suspend, it just looks similar.

[@WhatMyr]

Ohhhh permanent yeah ok I missed that. I was listening and was like wait a minute. Thank you XD

[@Oznej]

It's also permanents you control, and you can only control stuff on the battlefield. You may own cards in exile, but you don't control them.

[@TeamSprocket]

@@Oznej You also control spells and abilities on the stack.

[@calebbrown1068]

This episode sponsored by Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith. Play mana, get rocks!

[@jeremywitkowski7860]

Would you be able to create a table or graphic showing your rankings? It would be nice to have a summary for easy reference

[@Onattamato]

I love Coveted Jewel not as a mana rock, but as another "monarch" or "let's move the game along" card. Especially with sacrifice/blink/recursion strategies, where you *can* deny someone else the chance to get it.

[@VulcanHeStan]

Coveted Jewel is stellar in Darien, King of Kjeldor decks

[@batman11693]

My biggest take away from this week's episode is that I think we should discuss the viability of mana rocks by the number of colors in your deck, not in a complete vacuum. Fixing your colors and even which rocks you can play change with your number of colors. That totally changes the value of a lot of the colorless mana rocks and I think the "bad" single and dual color rocks.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

There are many factors such as 1. CEDH vs EDH 2. How many colors in your deck 3. Is there a specific synergy in your deck 4. Tempo in your deck (signets vs talismans) 5. Budget etc.

[@batman11693]

@@Dragon_Fyre I agree, and I like that the CEDH conversation kind of happened with Dana's S tier. They also kind of mentioned that certain strategies boost certain rocks, but color(s) specifically I think changes an argument about a rock regardless of strategy. Like the Diamonds aren't great, but if you want a colored rock in mono color decks you have slim options.

[@Jerhevon]

I'd also add how big your deck is going. A lot of my decks have lots of incidental draw. So efficiency is great. But if I want to go bigger, then I want more mana in fewer cards. Hence Worn Powerstone and Hedron Archives.

[@DarthChocolate15]

It's the easiest (in "casual") to put together a full set of mana rocks in a three color deck, where you're already at 8 with Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, Signets and Talismans. The balance is interesting where being less color dependent let's you run more colorless rocks with upside. But if you actually need colored mana in your 1/2 color decks, your options are so much worse. Versions of the Diamonds that enter untapped would mostly not be good enough in 3+ color decks, but would be huge boons for 2 and especially 1 color decks.

[@BDi321]

One thing about the 2-mana tapped rocks is they're basically rampant growth, but not in green: spend two mana, get one more mana per turn that you can't use until next turn. Granted, artifacts are normally less safe than lands. So if you're running rampant growth outside landfall decks and need something like it in green, they might not be out of the question (or maybe rampant growth is overrated?).

[@zula9696]

Three Visits and Nature's Lore can be a fantastic replacement for rampant Growth granted you are running lands with types on them

[@magnus24112]

Something interesting I've noticed is that sol ring and The Midnight Clock are the only rocks I've seen people use targeted removal on

[@51gunner]

A Midnight Clock that's about to wheel to its owner's advantage is definitely worth removing! I can also see a case to 1-for-1 trade & remove a Sol Ring early simply because it's going to run its owner further ahead in a game. For most other rocks I agree, I'm not sure I'd spend artifact removal solely to un-ramp someone. There's artifacts out there that'll completely run away with a game if they're in play (Great Henge comes to mind but there's countless others) and I'd rather save the card for that. I'll even hesitate to blow up a rock with my Kellan, Inquisitive Prodigy's attack trigger; while swinging with him is "free", it feels like something that'll draw ire & spite play my way (a considerable downside in EDH) for minor upside. I also built that deck with a couple indestructible artifacts for me to repeatedly draw from.

[@MasouShizuka]

I've had people target my mindstone/commander sphere before.

[@RodrigoCML7]

Sometimes when I hear Matt talk it feels like we’re playing two completely different games. Thankfully Dana is here to help me keep my sanity 😂 Joey of course being the love that holds it all together. Love the cast.

[@collinbeal]

The difference between Naya and Bant players is surprisingly vast 😂. Joey holds them together nicely with his Grixis tendencies.

[@thisfrosty]

more like Golgari! @@collinbeal

[@CmdrUD87]

I think it's important to take into account the cmc of your commander and the style of play patterns you want to create. The diamonds for example are fine if you play them on turn 2 and then curve into a 4-drop commander. Similarly for the way especially 2-mana rocks that generate colours enable you to keep hands you would have to ship otherwise.

[@dyne313]

I like the Diamonds.

[@egg_timer]

@@dyne313 Me too. Obviously things like cEDH rocks are good; what we need is a more nuanced evaluation of 2-drops than "tapped is bad." They think [[Prismatic Lens]] is bad? [[The Irencrag]] triggers in a "really select, narrow set of situations?" Are they playing commander? This whole episode is suspect.

[@d0xx1d3]

S - fast mana rocks A - arcane signet, fellwar stone, talismans B - torque, signets, mind stone, cursed mirror Everything else you need a reason to play

[@sandwichboy1268]

Signets are better than the talismans imo

[@soulkens]

@@sandwichboy1268how? For mana fixing in 3+ color decks maybe but 2 and less it’s 2 to cast 1 to get 2 leaving you -1 with fixing if you hit a talisman it’s 2 to play an extra land that turn but it’s a pain land

[@InmAncalagon]

​@@sandwichboy1268 Talismans are so much better than Signets. It's like pain lands vs Odyssey filter lands. Talisman can tap for mana right away, Signet needs mana input. It's not even close, Talismans are miles ahead in power level. They're even cEDH staples, Signets only see play in decks with limited options like 2 color decks

[@MareczqZglos]

I really like Relic of Sauron in the color it works in. Its a 4 mana rock, that fix you amaizng , on top of that in late game it can be a "draw" engin - slow, and expesive - but still (this is why i dont like the expesive mana rocks - like Archive - that you need to sac. to have the draw - You loose the mana forever.) :) On top of that, its hit a lot of "reanimate" decks, so the "discard" can be a bonus ;) I will be not suprise, if we will see super similar mana rock this Year - the same cost, just add 2 mana of any combination you want, and it daws a card for 3 mana and tap it.

[@benjaminmiller3523]

An underrated upside of Chromatic Lantern is that it just speeds up any cost consideration. Instead of ever having to consider if you have the right colors or tapping the right lands for the right colors. Just tap whatever.

[@eleanorshuttleworth9346]

A note about the unstable obelisk, is that in colorless commander decks, it gets a lot better. It taps for the only mana you need, and it provides a rare source of colorless removal. That may explain why it is in some of those 23,000 decks

[@rafaelribeiro1871]

I''d put all the green inclusive talismans and signets at C or lower. In green decks, you just have better ramp options in auras or sorceries or mana dorks, unless your deck really cares about artifacts.

[@Jerhevon]

I'll occasionally include one or two. Especially in 3+ color decks. That way you can keep a hand that's two non-green lands and a mana rock.

[@CrabBaskets]

I love to brew more mono color decks or two color decks with a dominant one color bend, so the Medallion cycle are S tier for me. My pet, weird cycle of mana rocks that I love are the Ramos rocks from Mercadian Masques that are 3 drops that add one of a particular color, and can be sacked at any time to add a mana of any color, I would say they are B / C tier.

[@lil0ni]

Manalith is one of my all time favorite cards because when i first started playing, that card made me understand that the ability to get more mana than your one land drop per turn is so so so valuable. I learned shortly after manalith is so far outclassed for what it wants to do but still; it taught me my first lesson of Magic.

[@corporalkills]

I agree. Sure it’s not a sol ring but it does its job perfectly well. To me, it’s the standard for an average decent rock

[@stephenx2857]

the irony is, back in the day... manalith was run unironically. things like coalition relic were "powerful" ... the creep for edh is massive in the last 10yrs.

[@corporalkills]

Power creep is now a power run in most cases! I similarly remember coalition relic being the play for players that know what they’re doing and now I haven’t seen one in years.

[@22ndCatch]

🤓 Just a small comment on the rankings: you mention that "if we're trying to fit a bell curve, C should be average." Just remember not all distributions need to be a normal curve. Many, if not most, curves are skewed. In my mind, the "average" card, the card picked at random from a pile of all cards of it's type, is usually low C, trending toward D bc it'll just never make it into your deck. There are very few cards I consider S or A. So if your curve has 4 times as many Cs as As, that might represent the real curve. I mention it bc I know we're all stats nerds here. You all do great work and I love listening to your casts; keep it up!

[@radiantburrito]

Liquimetal Torque is sooooooo good. Love the love for it.

[@drummerboy0511]

I like Chromatic Lantern when I have it in a deck with pain lands. The ability overrides the "pain" ability so it's like tapping for free mana. And of course it works on the colorless utility lands I may have.

[@isaachallberg3600]

Hey Coveted Jewel is FANTASTIC in a Nekusar deck. It's either making you a ton of mana and accelerating your game or it's tempting your opponents to draw more cards and lose more life. Win either way!

[@jodryclayton5991]

Haven't seen Planar Atlas before, I'm with Joey, I think it's nice to have the option to ensure you hit your land drops, especially in non-green decks where you're relying on land drops. I think it also helps with muligans in that you can keep an opening hand with two lands and this thing. Late game sure you're probably not putting a land on top but heck, maybe you are! have the option is nice. Plus... also good way to get rid of Brainstorm trash!

[@Jerhevon]

One of those cards where I wish it was more available in the wild. As much as folks praise prime Jumpstart sets for unique cards and reprints, the RNG and the lows on the packs are absolutely terrible. (I liked set based Jumpstart for having a higher floor, even if the ceiling was meh. Normal jumpstart had an amazing ceiling, but I so often ended up eating dirt on buying just a couple packs.)

[@RobThePrincess]

Did we skip Replicating Ring? Phenomenal mana rock in decks that care about proliferating counters, or even doubling tokens. And even in a general sense its a clearly upgraded Manalith. Not sure if i just somehow missed it or not, but its a clutch option for certain decks.

[@robertmitchell8052]

You guys are now officially my favourite channel. Love your videos and just you guys in general, please keep rocking your videos for mana years to come.

[@andrueurbane7361]

Great episode, and I love the different perspectives and supporting context. One potential miss for mana rocks to consider - Springleaf Drum. In a creature-heavy strategy, particularly in 3+ colors this artifact is A+ as it both ramps and perfectly fixes for a mere ONE mana. Yes, there is setup, but if that aligns with your greater deck purpose it isn't a cost, it's a synergy. I personally find it difficult to evaluate mana rocks outside of a more holistic ramp strategy for a deck. More than half of my 18 decks play ZERO mana rocks. I am not currently playing Sol Ring in any deck. That isn't because I devalue them, but because another ramp strategy or an oddball way to deal with others' ramping is preferred. Granted I thoroughly admit to being a DeGen, who plays decks named "Mono-blue Land Ramp" and "Orhoz Landristocraps"...

[@ekuude]

Spring leaf drum is great but I often found the tension of losing attackers/blockers too annoying. Maybe better in deck with hate bears or utility creatures that you never want in combat

[@cablefeed3738]

I feel like machine god's Effigy would be a good card to bring up.

[@shorgoth]

goes infinite with the Astral dragon and is useful to copy ton of fun abilities.

[@Regisauris]

A rock they didn't get to that I wanted to hear a discussion on was Honored Heirloom. It's a 3 man taps for any color, but potentially a little bit of graveyard hate. I often run it in decks that can't run bojuka bog and don't want to give up a slot to something like soul guide lantern.

[@davidh5840]

came here to say this. agree! love that card!

[@jasonhart543]

Honored Heirloom for those games when you want to be the unsung hero the table doesn't deserve. Love that card.

[@ekuude]

I tell everyone I play with to swap soul ring for that card. It fixes mana, doesn't net you aggro from table, and allows you interact repeatedly. So many decks utilize at least some form of graveyard recursion whether it's flashback, reanimate, or regrowth effects. Sol ring is often a dead draw after turn 5, HH can immediately come down and affect the game state. I just hate the auto include of sol ring and having ppl at table pontificate whether they should keep their two island sol ring hand in a grixis deck or not.

[@carlospadilla7247]

3 mana rocks that make only 1 mana rank too far down the list they mentioned in the intro that they were not going to mention every rock.

[@Regisauris]

@@carlospadilla7247 I heard them talk about not covering all the rocks and I agree they shouldn't as there are a lot of them and more are coming out often. But at the end of the episode they did ask for us to chime in with ones they may have missed and I wanted to share one of my pet rocks. Plus if they included this one we could have the classic "Target Joey's graveyard" bit and that's always fun.

[@alanjones6408]

I'm curious about your thoughts on the locket cycle. I have a slower playgroup, so we still tend to use them for the possible late game card draw and early color fixing. Only in two color decks though.

[@mathimus55]

Lockets are definitely down the list, they're less efficient than the cluestones to cycle through but honestly, if that's where your playgroup is at then run with it

[@thatguycam1989]

Ever try casting a spell in the early game with two pips of the same color only to find out you can't because you have a signet in play? Signets are in B tier for me for this reason. I often don't play multicolored spells that aren't my commander, so no harm keeping them out of most of my decks.

[@Krunschy]

Don't get it this example tbh. Since you got the signet out, I assume we're talking about a 3 drop at least, so the signet off color can just pay for the generic mana, can't it?

[@ahriahvanor6690]

Uh no I’ve never had this example happen to me. A signet has never stopped me from casting something. In this example you’re in at least a 3 color deck, hit 2 of the same land, and got a signet of your two other colors. Which just seems like a bad draw, not a ding against signets

[@alexchorel-campanozzi8275]

Just learned the existance of Manalith and I was like "oh interesting I could put in my decks" then seconds later I hear "do not play manalith" XD

[@troacctid]

Yeah, there are about three dozen mana rocks that are straight-up strictly better than Manalith.

[@chriscubbernuss3288]

If you WANT to play it, then play it. Make a deck that makes you happy.

[@Sweetguy1821]

Get a dark steel ingot. It's also not good, but it's at least indestructible.

[@TheJojotyp]

@@chriscubbernuss3288 I agree with this sentiment as a whole but when talking about mana rocks we are usually not talking about the coolest of effects out there... especially when looking at Manalith. I mean sure, if you like the artwork/artist or whatever go for it but I wouldn't recommend it to a newer player at all since I think there are many other (budget) mana rocks you can play in the same spot that will actually make you happier as this episode showed :D

[@alexchorel-campanozzi8275]

yeah this is what i just realized and I do play those ahah@@troacctid

[@xaropevic7918]

Another problem with chromatic lantern is that you shouldn't rely on it to manafixing, because is only 1 card in the 100, so it baits you into not worrying as much in to it by making your manabase worse for example and making it less reliable overall

[@r.a.w.780]

I really like phial of galadrial 😊 a lot of my decks dump the hand fast, so getting an extra draw when empty handed is great!

[@EnRandomSten]

I jokingly put it in all my decks with bad draw engines and quickly realized .... Hey its actually really good lol

[@r.a.w.780]

@@EnRandomSten it helps a lot in boros when my board is wiped since most white card draw is attack based and I really liked it when a friend of mine was using a discard deck.

[@EnRandomSten]

@@r.a.w.780I can imagine! Ironically the deck I've had the most success with it in is my strefan vampire deck that spits out blood tokens left and right. Turns out that the deck that keeps emptying my hand of vampires really like the ability to discard 1 card to draw 2 during those longer games.

[@pauldyson8098]

I've been playing Magic for a long time but I was today years old when I realized that Midnight Clock has the same mana cost as Timetwister. I know that Twister affects all players where Clock affects only the controller, but the fact that both cards cause you to shuffle your cards in and draw seven--for the same mana cost--kind of blew my mind. The Melvin in me is so happy right now.

[@angeldoyle859]

one rock that is fairly situational but incredibly powerful in the right deck is Victory Chimes. If your commander has an instant speed activated ability, chimes can do great work. I particularly love it in volrath the shapestealer or magar of the magic strings, as you can curve it into turn 4 magar +get an animated spell, and then in later turns you can cast whatever you want on your turn and then spend your mana on other turns to activate magar's ability, it really generally speaking is an untapped rock that taps for 2 mana minimum. And if you don't have anything to use it on at the time, it's a fun political tool.

[@CourtneyRoberts1982]

Since the S tier is a thing “B”would actually be your middle or baseline. It also fits the acronyms A is always good, B as a baseline, C is Compensating or Niche, and D is don’t include. Granted many ranks don’t use F as it’s duplicated with D. S is “silly for not including” 😜

[@schwarzertee7586]

This is really easy: S: Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Grim Monolith, Jeweled Lotus A: Arcane Signet, Signet, Talismans, Liquimetal Torque, Mind Stone, Thought Vessel, Felwar Stone, Everflowing Chalice... there's just too many 2-cmc rocks. B: Diamonds, Worn Powerstone, Cursed Mirror, Midnight Clock, Hedron Archive, Dreamstone Hedron, Thran Dynamo C-F: any 3-Mana rock S: should be in almost every deck (if budget and powerlevel don't play any role) A: are the go-to option for ramp and fixing in most decks B: are good for filling up slots for ramp cards if you can't fill your slots with Tier S-A or bring some mechanic that benefits your deck specifically (cursed mirror is amazing in Feldon for example) C-F: Borderline unplayable garbage. Except for extreme budget reasons or very niche deck building restrictions there is no reason to run any of these at any point.

[@drkatz1192]

I love this podcast and you guys! It has helped me through so many hard times and transitions in my life. I love that this is a constant and it always makes me smile learning new perspectives 😊

[@Krunschy]

I run Liquimetal Torque in a few decks, but I must admit I have yet to be as impressed by it as you guys are tbh. It's okay in combination with my own cards, but I really thought I would be able to use it more in combination with other players cards. The fact of the matter is however that in order to have your mana work out, you often need to use your colorless mana first, so it's unfortunately most likely unavailable when that Vandalblast hits.

[@Jerhevon]

Often best to build it for your own synergies first. Having a bevy of artifact removal or artifact synergies. You don't put it in a deck with 2 disenchants. But one where you have multiple natural interactions. And then occasionally snipe an opponent's thing.

[@CajunJynx]

@@Jerhevonthe torque is the best way I have in my mono red for nuking enchantments.

[@TheMegaMagikarp]

Hey, hey Joey. When does a joke become a dad joke? When it becomes apparent.

[@JimmyWigs]

"You deserve better than the Pillar of Origins."

[@Cephalopopo]

Jeweled amulet is quite good by the way in either 5c decks and or decks with commanders with 5 or 6 cmc. It is especially good with tapped multicolored lands. I made a prismatic bridge deck with a 20 dollar land base that consistently drops the bridge turn 4-5, which is only like roughly a turn later than the high priced mana base (turn 3-4) and this amulet is one of the many reasons this deck performs so well. There is an interesting article by a progammer which I found while browsing archidekt the other day, pretty much covers the same I just reported here. It is about how budget cards are often not that much worse than the hyped ones. He finds the same that budget land bases oftentimes are only like 1 turn slower than the high priced ones, which is almost irrelevant in an inherently non-competitive format. Another thing is that depending on the deck a 3 mana rock might not have any downside compared to a 2 mana rock ..

[@xaropevic7918]

Do you have the list for that manabase please?

[@MEIZimm]

I too would like to know what went into the $20 5-color mana base for this deck :)

[@patricklynch4074]

I play firemind vessel in exactly one deck and its because its a 1) five color artifact deck 2) with a bunch of built in artifact cost reduction 3) that Really wants to go off turn 5 so i play it turn 4 to have a lot of extra mana for the next turn (so I don't mind the enters tapped) If it wasnt such a nice fit in that deck it wouldnt have been a consideration

[@TheTexasDice]

Shoutout to Pristine Talisman. You should never play that card in a normal deck, but if you have any Lifegain trigger synergy, that thing rules the world.

[@ylygylygynda]

I have a Yargle and Multani deck, and I play Thran Dynamo, Lotus Bloom and Basalt Monolith in there. It’s an investment that is destined to pay for huge amounts of commander tax.

[@davidengkent7756]

I'll run Diamonds in most of my Mono or 2C decks because I'm swimming in them after getting draft boxes of the two commander legends sets. I think the floor on Manascape Refractor is higher than one would think. I run it in my Sefris deck and between the bouncelands and High Market ... and I've even used it as a fetchland, that I think the average deck can find enough utilty.

[@dapperghastmeowregard]

I like the keyrunes in decks that care about creatures (like being able to pay 1 and tap a Gruul Keyrune to bump Jetmir up a tier at instant speed :33). Also think I run Silumgar Monument in Runo just as an option to clone while bopping somebody for 4 in the air.

[@Jerhevon]

As much as I love animating lands and mana rocks to smack people with in Dragonlord Silumgar and his toys... yeah it's just on point to have monuments to my commander :)

[@ty_sylicus]

I don't think I have a single deck with Commander's Sphere anymore. I used to love that card!

[@mfitkin]

Thank you for mentioning planar atlas! A rock and a draw smoother in one card :D who cares that it comes in tapped

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

The essential lesson is that now there are so many untapped two-mana rocks, simple mana production is not enough for three-mana rocks and niche utility that is ideal for your deck is necessary. Something like Chromatic Lantern is merry okay for fixing, but excellent for decks like Hazezon that are forced to have terrible manabases. Crowded Crypt is a bad rock for black unless you are in zombies, aristo, or aristozombies where it excels. Heraldic Banner is an ideal mono-rock but gets much weaker in multi. If it doesn’t do something you would put on a spell, it’s not worth the extra mana cost on the rock.

[@NazoPureChaos]

(Commenting before I finish the video, forgive me if you covered this) A hidden deficit to cards like Arcane Signet and Commander's Sphere is that they specify "your commander's color identity." For a large majority of decks, this isn't an issue since most commanders have at least one color, but for anyone attempting to run a colorless deck, these cards are actually useless, because they will tap for no mana at all. If fringe cases like these, it is amusing to think that Manalith might actually be better than Commander's Sphere, and a Wastes is strictly better than Command Tower! On another note, colorless commanders make Commander's Plate absolutely stupid, so that might be a fair trade-off.

[@hermitthedruid]

Love the Guardian Idol (and Mishra's Factory) call out, they are great with Intruder Alarm.

[@narvuntien]

When you did the lands rank I made a big changes to decks so I look forward to re-evaluating my mana rock bases.

[@zidaryn]

23:55 OMG! I didn't realize that! My in-experience showed in that I didn't realize Liquimetal Torque could be used in a mono-green deck as set up for removal. I'm definitely going to look to adding it to my deck since creature removal is one of the things it's lacking in.

[@Lanceweilder]

Re: medallions, i even play Pearl in my Tariel angels deck bc the deck leans heavily into white, bc angels are mostly a white creature; black is mainly there for card draw and helps w/removal, and red is mainly there for Aurelia the Warleader and Gisela Blade of Goldnight plus certain modal cards like Boros Charm. Rest of the deck is white so even though its 3 colors pearl helps a ton.

[@joedoe7572]

@edhrecast I think I know a big reason why there are so many time travel cards in Alaundo decks. The Gatherer/Scryfall rulings say they do, even though the comprehensive rules say they don't. Currently, the rulings on the time travel cards are incorrect, but that's probably what people generally look at to see if something works, and they would rely on that since it's there, and not look it up in the comprehensive rules

[@GeckoThePoet]

Doesn’t time travel also say “AND each permanent you control with a time counter on it”?

[@Carwinley]

I absolutely *adore* Mox Amber in my Giada Angel Tribal deck, but I definitely agree with the take that it's potentially really strong but not something *every* deck wants to play. It's great in Giada because of some specific reasons that don't necessarily apply to every deck - namely, Giada is a 2-mana Commander which means that a) I have a disincentive levied upon 2-mana rocks, and b) I consistently have a Legendary monster that matches my colour identity on the field for much of the game. Add to this that Angels tend to be quite high-cost, and a 0-mana rock is a very big boon. That said, given this situational use I can't in good conscience rank it higher than a B overall. Within the decks it works with it's incredible, but I'm of the opinion that an A-or-higher rating is only justified in cards that fit in the vast majority of decks - for example, Arcane Signet fits the 2:1ratio of cost:generation, it's 2 mana, and it matches your colours. The same applies for the dual-colour Talismans, as for example a Talisman of Indulgence is probably going to be worth playing in any 2/3-colour deck that includes Red and Black in its identity. For me, S-tier is reserved only for rocks that completely break the rules and have extremely wide use-cases; Sol Ring and its 1:2 cost:output ratio, or things like Mana Crypt and Jewelled Lotus that let you completely break the expectations of the mana curve, and things like that. Meanwhile, B-tier is where you put things where they're either solid-but-not-amazing, or great-but-niche.

[@ronaldrogan7546]

Throne of Eldraine is SOOO good in mono color decks that dont already draw a ton of cards with a high curve, especially big red or white. Great add.

[@shawnpanzegraf5642]

I’ve been in love with Throne of Eldraine since it came out, and I’m a Mono Green enthusiast. You play Commanders like Vorinclex, Vorinclex MR, Old Gnawbone, Kodama of the East Tree etc, you get used to paying C-Tax. On the rare occasion I don’t need to recast an 11-12 CMC Commander, or have an X-outlet I could be abusing, a draw-two for 3 isn’t a kick in the nuts. Besides, nothing spells fun like tapping your Throne to draw into a Return of the Wildspeaker and your Eternal Witness. Scepter may be a tiny bit more efficient, but I’m not thrilled with it just being a Rock when I could have the draw and I’m only going to play 1 Super-Rock. The 4 CMC w/ 2 colorless and similarly costed draw leave me cold by comparison. I wish they’d done something with Nyx Lotus like have it tap for 1/2 your Devotion, but comes into play untapped.

[@galford90]

45:31, nah man I'm a filthy human being playing slivers, and Chromatic lantern solve lots of problems, ensuring a turn 4 drop of my commander (usually I play Legion, since my friends attack me turn 1 always if I use First sliver). And of course, other alternatives exist, but playing only one mana fix on a 5 color deck is a no-no, so Chromatic Lantern is an easy slot-in. Also, 57:55 Eldrazi colorless need every bit of interaction it can have I'm completly aware that these are exceptions and people usually don't play these. But, well, I do.

[@cannonballbrad9522]

I added cold steel heart to a deck because I don’t like swapping cards between decks and I just needed a 2 mana rock that gave me one of my grixis colors. Star compass is in a deck because I specifically wanted 2 mana rocks mostly (for Cadric) because I wanted him out on turn 3 consistently. Sometimes the bad rocks are just the right slow and old ingredients you need for a casual deck.

[@strangemagik]

Super niche, but Skyclave Relic and Everflowing Chalice are both hilarious with Verazol the Split Current as commander. I play skyclave relic kicked, copy it with verazol and it paid for itself. Copy it with another ability too and you get 9 untapped rocks for 6 mana lol

[@angelojohnson9441]

There are totally F tier mana rocks due to power creep. Manalith would have been OP in the 90s with uncommons like Mana Prism and Rares lile Phyrexian Lens. I feel like Great Henge got pushed in with Cursed Mirror, but honestly I would have liked your take on Skullport Nexus, but maybe I just missed the video where you went into detail about it, as I am still on the fence about it. Link appreciated if anyone has it handy. I agree with the late-game card advantage of Commander’s Sphere as well as standing by Chromatic Lantern: these are both really beginner-friendly cards and while not necessarily for most of your audience, I still remember being the kid proud of reaching a 300 card collection and running a 5 color abomination to use as many of the cards I owned and Chromatic Lantern allows beginners like I was to have less uncastable cards in their hand to start seeing what cards are good when (if at all). If I had it my way Chromatic Lantern would be in every 5 color pre-con along with Commander’s Sphere. Can they be swapped out later? Of course! However let us let the new players have the chance to play an fall in love with their cards to play more later.

[@BobbyBev95]

One of my favorite 3 mana rocks with upside that wasn’t mentioned - The Celestus. I have it in my Celestine deck, which is a life gain and reanimator deck. It’s a mana rock that loots, puts stuff in the grave, and gains life while also tapping for mana. And it can potentially trigger if opponents cast or don’t cast spells!

[@mymarshlands]

the problem with The Celestus is that it introduces day/night into the game and id guess 90% of players (or more) don't wanna deal with that if you watch Tolarian community college, they did a shuffle up and Missplay that showcased how messy it can be in a game 😅

[@darthnyith]

Dang, that made me realize that "Jhoira's Timebug" also doesn't work.

[@TenTailedSasuke]

I agree with Dana on the Chromatic Lantern. My playgroup knows I hate the lantern, and my reason is this: if you need it to make your mana work, then you just need to fix your mana base, and if your mana is good, then you don't need this. It isn't even a great budget option because it is still a few bucks.

[@vasylpark2149]

Chromatic lantern fixes your colors and taps for any color. Whats not to like B-tier. It makes your lands that much better. I play coveted jewel in decks where i have the monarch and I want to encourage my opponents to attack each other.

[@alovely4478]

if you run replicate or alot of 1 blip spells it actually enables you to do things you couldn't do with your other mana base i.e. my favorite card: djinn illuminatus

[@ericsanchz]

There are just so many budget lands and mana rocks and ways to fix your mana that aren’t a 3 mana rock it’s not worth it

[@vasylpark2149]

​@ericsanchz i have it in my ur-dragon deck and even with all the color fixing I still love it, and it is usually a target for removal. The ability to just the lands for any color means you can respond and activate abilities much easier. It opens up a lot more.

[@canoli62]

The only thing I disagree with you guys on is the last topic... Assuming you're not talking cEDH, people focus too much on ramping in early turns. So, when it comes to the late game and they draw three 2 mana rocks in turns 8+, they end up screwed because they have almost no effect. Contrast this with a larger rock, that ramps you enough to add an additional play of significance each turn cycle. This is the reason Skyclave is an allstar. Draw it early, it will stick around. Draw it late and it scales and pushes you a tiny bit ahead.

[@12jacobmar]

After 15 years of playing magic, I never knew credit voucher was even a thing 😂

[@Antare5]

I do have a few commanders sitting at 5 mana, and that's the threshold where I do find Worn Powerstone being a serious consideration for me. It often still doesn't quite make it but I'm always considering swapping it in. The one deck I do run it in is Liesa, Shroud of Dusk which I've made into a Voltron deck, so getting Liesa out into the field early is what the deck lives or dies by.

[@SackofDooDoo]

I find 5cmc+ commanders do like the 3-drop rocks that can provide 2 mana, such as coalition relic, ...of Ramos rocks, and Component Pouch.

[@InquisitorSinCross]

Chromatic Orrery and Chromatic Lantern are more of utility artifacts that just happen to produce mana. The only commander that comes to mind that wants both of them is Sen Triplets Same for both screwdrivers - they are "Staff of Domination/Staff of Compleation" lite

[@collinbeal]

I have an Ayara deck, and that's about the only place I run Nyx Lotus. I think it's really good, but very specialized. I have so many 1-2-drops in that deck that it more often than not taps for 10 mana rather than 0. Even if the board is wiped, replaying my commander gets it right back up to 3 again, though it's basically never at 0 because of my Graf Harvest, Warlock Class, and recursive skellies. That's out of around 25 decks, but it's just so good in that deck, as well as Black Market, which easily spits out 15 mana per turn each time I play it.

[@regnarissad]

for the thran dynamo, guilded lotus, etc. section (edit- 1:05:17 i forgot you could do time stamps lol), my Morophon deck absolutely loves these, and they are 100% essential bc 7 mana to 9 to 11 is just so hard to keep up when your opponents hold removal

[@pokedadsam9041]

Did we mention Honor-Worn Shaku? That thing is so good in legends and planeswalker decks. Multiple mana per turn usually.

[@Oznej]

I want to speak out in defence of Chromatic Orrery. Sure, it's 7 mana, but gains you 5 of them back right away - and it's the ultimate mana-fixer! Should you be playing for infinite mana, it helps you dye it. It's not great in a monocoloured deck, but it can be a life-saver in 4 or 5 colours. And late-game it will help you dig through your deck quickly.

[@highbrowloubrew]

On the subject of misreading Planar Atlas, you don't "keep" the land, it goes on top of the deck. It doesn't fix you if you miss a drop.

[@camfunme]

2 mana +1 tapped rocks are equivalent to 3 mana +1 untapped rocks but they come down 1 turn earlier (i.e. 2 cost - 0 production = 2 => +1 mana every next turn, vs. 3 cost - 1 production = 2 => +1 every next turn). So if the 3 mana rock's upside is worth not being able to play on turn 2 and you can reliably cast a spell to use the +1 mana the turn you cast it then it's better, if not just run 2 mana tapped rocks.

[@Gedaning20]

I will say I run skyclave relic and Worn Powerstone in my high power Kozelic the Great Distortion deck because in that deck I need rocks that produce a lot of mana to cast my commander and other Eldrazi and those 2 do that at a fairly efficient rate (ie i always kick skyclave relic). Having said that I agree those 2 rocks are not good in most decks

[@4lifejackhammer]

One I would add; the borderposts from Alara Reborn. Yes, they cost 3 and enter tapped; I tend to play with 38 lands,and *still* find myself playing the alternate cost most the time so as not to waste that land drop. Averaging rock, not for every deck, but still worth considering for decks that run it and like artifacts.

[@thork_tv]

Thought vessel can be a Trap: If you plan to use your grave the discarding at end of Turn can be an easy way to Set Up a reanimation spell

[@Krunschy]

Call me greedy, but what I love about planar atlas is how you can sometimes cut a land for it, since it most likely gets you the potentially missing land anyways.

[@SightedAxis]

Relic of legends can have some clutch scenarios depending on how many legendaries you run. It makes so much more mana than it costs. If you’ve got a mana holder like omnath or leyline tyrant it puts in so much work

[@benashley4837]

Wand of the world soul is up there for me in terms of mana rocks, in a token build it crushes it

[@sparkleseverywhere]

one of my favorite more niche rocks is pentad prism in proliferate decks. as long as you keep a counter on it, it always gets recharged when you play your deck

[@maxmazzel]

45:37 I have been ripping Chromatic Lantern out off my decks over the last 3ish years. Like Dana said the lands are so much better at fixing nowadays that you don't need it. I even took it out of my deserts deck since Yavimaya and Dryad do enough already

[@PawzBrownMTG]

I'd like to wish you all an HAPPY NEW YEAR GENTLEMEN 👍🙏LOVE Y'ALL

[@mandielyn0416]

Don’t think I saw it in the video, what are everyone’s thoughts on victory chimes? I have been testing it lately and the number of times that giving an opponent an extra mana to interact has been fairly regular. Just last night it gave my buddy the colorless to cast dress down to hose dockside. Plus it does just give you the option of one colorless on each players turn.

[@jaywinner328]

Medallion's are trash in most decks. They don't activate abilities, they don't help casting artifacts or any spells with no generic in their cost. Unless you're in some spellslinger type deck that's going to string lots of spells on the same turn, they aren't worth playing. Chromatic Lantern is fine but it's a trap. You can't build a worse manabase because of a single rock that saves you. And with a good manabase, you don't need it.

[@emilymcpherson6564]

a mana rock that i REALLY love but is definitely not very good competitively is Cryptolith Fragment from Shadows Over Innistrad. it's just a random uncommon that was only printed once. it ETBs tapped and taps for 1 of any color. which is bad. but! when you tap it for mana, it pings the entire table, including yourself, for 1. and as a nice little bonus (which will only happen in limited realistically) is that when each player is below 10 life, it flips into a flying death touch that makes your opponents lose 10 whenever it swings its not a great card by any means, but it's wacky, unique jank, and it works well in EDH in a life loss matters deck. for example, i run it in a Strefan Maurer Progenitor deck where i need every player to lose 1 life each turn for his end step trigger. very fun card

[@brendans1983]

U should be a car salesman 😂

[@emilymcpherson6564]

@@brendans1983 nah ive just got autism LOL

[@DatadasPrime]

With Alaundo the Seer, I don't think the confusion is with whether or not his ability grants suspend. I think people aren't realizing that Time travel specifies "each permanent you CONTROL with a time counter on it," and you don't control cards which are in exile.

[@benjaminangelis7609]

Honor-Worn Shaku is a 3 mana rock that should be on this list if Relic of Legends is on this list. As more legendary permanents get printed it gets better. Without the creature restriction that's on Relic of Legends, you can get extra value off of any legendary permanent that doesn't tap.

[@valun360]

My favorite mana rock is Component Pouch. I understand that it's super niche and not on the list, but giving 2 colored mana and letting me roll dice tickles my brain

[@shorgoth]

it's insane in my Will blade of the wild deck, also quite flexible for 5 colour decks with a ruberg commander.

[@sarahmay3795]

I really like replicating ring, but only in my Toxrill proliferate deck. It's great when it works, but if you can't pump it up, definitely not worth it.

[@EvolutionSTUD10S]

Chromatic Lantern letting you play on "easy mode" by removing extra decision making is a huge upside. Less thinking means fewer opportunities to make mistakes, which adds up a lot over a game or a session of games. Frees up your brain to think about other things.

[@bradstanky]

The challenge the stats hurts me dearly... I thought I worked aswell

[@andrewpeli9019]

Worn powerstone is still very good. A ramp option that ramps 2 mana for 3 is still very rare to find. In a non-green deck that has a curve of 4+, you should run this.

[@SamuelKacerik]

Actually it's better than Sol Ring because you are not getting killed for it. ;)

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

​@@SamuelKacerik That is definitely true.

[@clausfussel2932]

I play the diamonds and coldsteel heart in Feather, the redeemed. Mostly because it is very intensive when it comes to pip's in its cards. Most cards don't have a colorless component at all.

[@Atmatan]

Given how many options there are and how few rocks one actually needs in most decks, I'm VERY hard pressed to ever play a shock land or a shock rock. Every point of life matters until it's gone, even if it is a resource. Trading life for mana can lead you to making shortsighted mistakes when at high life that come to bite you later, leaving you in a position of relying on your own life drain when your deck isn't built to make use of it beyond mana. If you're running black or white, for sure you can probably life gain your way to balance, but most multicolored decks will easily burn out when pressed and relying on shocks.

[@cainancapko4149]

I run Thought Vessel in my Atraxa, Grand Unifier deck. Sometimes you just get too many cards in hand and you want more! I also run Mardu Banner/Crystal in my budget Kelsien/Obosh companion deck, but that's the only reason lmao

[@laytonjr6601]

TIL the weird wording of "equip/enchant permanent, it gains X if it's a creature and 'equipped/enchanted creature gains X' if it's an equipment/aura" is there to work around giving your own stuff protection