Setup and Payoff: Your Deck's Synergy Ratio | EDHRECast 117

"Synergy" is a very nebulous term, so this week the cast dives into the finer points of the deckbuilding template to examine how many card slots a deck tends to devote to its multi-part strategy. How many cards in your deck should help enable the deck in the first place, and how many do you need to help the deck turn the corner and win the game?
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[@geoffclarke9375]

It would he really cool if you guys did an episode showing off your personal decks! I especially am interested in seeing joeys, mimeoplasm deck. Keep up the great work guys! Love the podcast

[@pauldyson8098]

Also, Joey, thank you for not mixing up "less" and "fewer." My English professor's heart thanks you.

[@akselhansen304]

What's the difference if I may ask?

[@pauldyson8098]

@@akselhansen304 Think "less water, fewer glasses of water." If you can count it, it's "fewer"; if you can't, it's "less." Other examples: Twelve items or fewer, less stuff to buy. Fewer minutes, less time. Fewer lands, less mana.

[@akselhansen304]

@@pauldyson8098 aaaah so it's just one of those things you do but don't know why you do Thanks for the clarification

[@masterolimario]

From my experience, the person playing a permission deck like Baral and Talrand makes enemies pretty quick and has to do some pretty insane controlling to not die before they can cyclonic rift. Win condition cards that don't double as control cards is a great way to get killed. That said, the cards that really win permission decks games is broken stuff like cyclonic rift and expropriate, not making tokens.

[@heavenbot]

I love the growth of the site! New writers and content creators are always welcome! As well, I have never been so stoked for a podcast as I was when I saw the title of this episode.

[@ryanweston6182]

Really enjoying your channel. I've been playing MTG on and off since it began. But I recently just got back into it after a 13 year break. I had played commander a few times back then but it wasn't very popular. Now that I'm playing again I only play EDH. But man I feel so far behind. I'm stuck in this place where I don't have enough cards to make really good decks but I dont want to lose all the time and then not want to play anymore. I know in time I will so that's why i watch you guys to try anything to get my decks better. Thank you for all your content.

[@dorsalfin22]

What is so fun about the Commander format is that since it is an eternal format, you can never really "fall behind." You make a deck 5 years ago, take a break and come back, and your deck is still perfectly playable. With just a couple minor tweaks here and there if you want. I would highly suggest going to the EDH rec themes page and see what types of strategies interest you and start building around those by buying the singles you need! I'm crazy and want one deck for every strategy, but everyone starts with their first :)

[@JpDubbed]

What's ACTUALLY awesome is that your stepdad plays magic. That's dope 👌🏻

[@gysahlgemuse7208]

I have a Xyris deck myself and watching other peoples deck list has made me consistently mad. Everyone just plays wheels assuming Xyris will be out 100% of the time, which is naive. The fact of the matter is, you need two different payoff types. For tokens and for drawing cards. And you need other sources to create tokens that synergize with the rest of the deck so it works without your commander. Like Wolfcaller's Howl. And Dragonlair Spider, because when you make people draw, they will cast more spells.

[@hiddenleaf414]

That's why I didn't build Xyris. My playgroup kills/counters any commander that gives to much value in comparison to how the deck is built.

[@soleo2783]

​@@hiddenleaf414 as they should

[@goodymanc]

My favorite edh podcast atm, thank you, guys!

[@couver2997]

Keep plugging the stream! It's great and everyone should watch on Wednesdays.

[@pauldyson8098]

You flip into Thalia's Lancers to tutor Aurelia.:) Glad you spent some time talking about my main lady. I mentioned this on Twitter but two cards that aren't even on Our Lady of Joined Forces's page are Mass Hysteria and Hanged Executioner. The former is a colorshifted Concordant Crossroads (itself an underplayed card, though probably for budget reasons), the latter a better three-drop than new Krenko. Unlike Legion War Boss and Rabblemaster, Krenko has to swing in and then you have to wait an additional turn to even use his tokens. Executioner drops two evasive bodies for the same CMC and has removal built in. Winota tends to be removal-light anyway so I think it's a slam dunk card in the deck.

[@greybirdplays9922]

I also Play Winota, though I personaly think Mass hysteria isnt really needed unless you are in a playgroup where there are wraths every turn. You just slam Winota on the board when you got tokens and then swing in with them. Agreed on Hanged Executioner though.

[@prashrad2382]

Another brilliant episode! I've really been binging your videos lately and they're brilliant

[@commanderpower99]

I think one of the hardest decks to balance is Teysa Karlov. You need three key pieces to make your deck function: sac outlet, token makers and die trigger card draw. I tend to run ten of each but some overlap.

[@zacharymartin4683]

Great episode on a fascinating subject. Thanks fellas!

[@joachimwessmark2601]

Hello EDHRECast, here is a "challenge the stats" tip, only 7/511 Avacyn, Angel of Hope decks runs Serenity, that is way to low.

[@WonderingSavior]

Is there a reason you'd need to destroy all artifacts and enchantments each consecutive turn? After the first trigger, your opponents (probably) won't play more while this is still around, so you'd be establishing a soft lock. And if that's your goal, I think you're better off playing control pieces like Hokori or Rule of Law to truly force a prison situation. If someone exiles Avacyn and you don't have a way to remove Serenity yourself, I feel like you're handing your opponents a comeback opportunity by removing the asymmetry of the card. I also don't think it's seeing such little play because it lacks synergy with Avacyn, but rather because of how slow it is, even with a card as powerful as her. Needing to wait a full cycle to finally trigger can't be better than just hoping to win the flip off Boompile.

[@RobMedellin]

I think you are right. I think I would run it since my playgroup uses a lot of enchantments. Of course is only good once you reach casting avacyn and then one turn more to cast and then it works. But yeah I think I would like to have it.

[@kingfuzzy2]

I loved this episode so much tyty. Fyi baral doesn't need to use counterspells just coat reduction I've seen some insane card selection and blue value / big creature decks with him and similar commanders that didn't run a single counter tutoring or digging for less Mana can be insane in the membrane.

[@Titanreaver616]

Love your content and this was an interesting episode. One bit of advice that I think you missed was that ideally the cards in your deck should serve multiple functions. I think you touched on it but I thought is should be stated outright. It is also why i think that a lot of tribal decks are good is because they often have the highest number of cards that can be both set up and pay off, and often fall into the general categories of ramp or card draw or removal.

[@lupojw6566]

Love your podcast you guys are hilarious!

[@kingfuzzy2]

No ur breathtaking

[@Solemnyty]

I play Winota in my Trynn and Silvar deck. Silvar is a non-human in the command zone and then I have 30 Humans in the deck. It's been great to me so far.

[@orgazmo686971]

The best decks are 50 lands, 50 pay off cards. Who needs set-up!

[@kingfuzzy2]

Exactly ; )

[@draftemmtg7733]

Love your work, you guys are the best at commentating : )

[@eliakimrodrigues]

19:40 - I had a Baral deck with 21 counterspells. The two games I played with it were miserable (for my opponents).

[@michaelsmith7561]

I agree, Gavi sucks because she runs out of cycling as a premade.

[@jakeapplegate6642]

Michael Smith I bought gavi, played it with a handful of upgrades and somehow flooded out (with non-cycling land) and only made 1 cat/dinosaur token the whole game. Took it home tore it apart and built Rielle, the everwise. Now that deck slaps.

[@JGushi87]

@@jakeapplegate6642 :o do you have a decklist to share? That sounds interesting :D

[@kingfuzzy2]

Gavi you don't need cycling just cut the precons and make a Janky synergistic jeskai deck it'll be fine ; )

[@jakeapplegate6642]

JGushi tappedout.net/mtg-decks/real-rielle/. It had more spellshapers but my buddy made me take them out because he said that the repeatable bouncing creatures and countering spells was too oppressive. There isn’t much left from the Gavi precon.

[@kingfuzzy2]

i love this ( :

[@bongaston2855]

In my Gavi Deck I "only" play 33 cycling cards.. For me, focusing on "card draw engines" works way better than flood the deck with cycling cards.

[@zachevans2220]

That was my approach to Gavi as well.

[@Cyberium]

I go cat tribal alongside cyclings. ^_^

[@kingfuzzy2]

Good on ya both ( :

[@nolanmanning3749]

cool concept today!

[@seanedgar164]

I love the topic. My Baral deck is more based around the cost reduction and using effects like cackling counterpart with archaeomancer to recast spells and fill the board. Docent of Perfection wincon and 12 counterspells tops

[@joshprice4855]

As a personal example I've cut a lot of card draw from my Korvold deck. It just doesn't matter as much when my commander is already such a good draw engine I have ready access to. I replaced those cards with more pay offs or set up and it felt much better.

[@SirKingHoff]

Smothering Abomination and Moldervine Reclamation are all I run at the moment.

[@EloquentTroll]

Nekusar has more payoffs in part because black has better payoffs for the wheel deck. The average Xyris deck would probably have more payoffs if it had access to more good payoffs. I played Nekusar for a lot of years. Over time my Nekusar deck shifted from quick wheel "combo", to slow controlling bleeding. When Nicol Bolas the Ravager came out I realized that I had a control deck barely apeing the normal Nekusar tricks, so I dropped the draw taxing entirely and just entirely committed to Grixis control and put Nicky at the helm. My win rate has dropped because running 14 board wipes and Breathstealer's Crypt doesn't make you any friends.

[@attackkataka6599]

Have yet to watch but I believe the synergy should always be MAXIMUM

[@BrunoCasagrandaNeves]

I guess once we have a solid agreement that templates are meant to ease players into the format or a new commander/strategy, it's clearer that a few recommendations can be made without too much compromise. Things like expected commander cast turn and how you should stack that cmc step, if the wincon if built within the commander, if the build demands a continuously growing board presence or if you're planning on a single explosive turn. All those elements could be included in a checklist to help adjust the basic template. Of course, the next step would be what Dana always preach: play the deck, take notes, explore the experience, etc. But that's beyond the template functions. Although... What about a deck evaluation and improvement template? Hmmm...

[@the_names_rob]

2 of my decks deviate from templates when it comes to creatures. My Sidisi Brood Tyrant deck has about 37 creatures while my Alela deck has about 7 creatures

[@TheFoxlover93]

There was a "rule" that was used known as the "Rule of 8". It was a loose rule where if you want enough of a certain effect, put 8 in and go from there. By doing so, you are likely to see one of those in a commander game. I believe TCZ uses the rule of "baseline 15-25 of a certain effect for it to be in that strategy". So for life gain decks, you want 15-25 life gain type of cards, and roughly 10 or so cards with life gain payoffs. I think a happy medium would be like 20ish cards and 10-15 pay offs. I personally worry about my "10 draw, 10 ramp, 10 removal, 3 board wipes and 33-35 lands" before trying to redistribute the values, but I honestly don't focus much on these "standalone/payoffs" too much. I play commander to have fun and hang out while sling spells so I don't think its like a big thing

[@soleo2783]

10 removal and 3 board wipes feels like too much

[@TheFoxlover93]

@@soleo2783 honestly having more single targeted removal is more important than wipes. I'd take board wipes down to 1-2, and look for ones that leave most, if not all of my board in tact. As for targeted removal, it depends on the deck. It's not an exact science, but around 10 is pretty good. Reason being is 8 in a deck means that on average you'll see one of those during your game. So if you add 2-4 more, you'll see more likelihood of drawing the right removal at the right time If nothing else, card draw should be 10-15. Churning through the deck let's you hit your lands, finds your removal, finds your creatures, everything

[@weishin]

EDHRECast: "They just figured out how to make core sets" WOTC releasing roadmap: "uh....NO MORE CORE SETS"

[@igniteaxiom]

guaranteed those ulamog players using myriad landscape are grabbing 2 wastes anyway.

[@kingfuzzy2]

Wastes are too expensive just use something else for the love of God colorless players.

[@aaronsullivan8230]

I agree that templates can helo out early but deviation can destroy too as no deck can account for everything and piloting ability can have a big factor, my friend came to the table with a tier 0 kess and my personal cedh urza annihilated him all 4 games from the combo of my deviations working well for me and my personal exp. Playing the game

[@the_names_rob]

My friend played with winota last night and popped off hard. But then i board wiped and he couldnt manage tocome back after

[@Tirvops]

20:04 Having your opponents concede

[@codysmith4210]

Yo, can you guys put the VODS of your stream on you twitch channel if its not too much work, went to watch but couldn't see it live.

[@danaroach29]

We're only able to do it as of this week since we just hit affiliate, but the ones from last night with Tappy should be up.

[@codysmith4210]

@@danaroach29 thank you so much!

[@ricadotorrens7050]

nekusar where 90$% of games turned me to archenemy lol so much fun tho

[@ygaudreault]

My favorite Nekusar player line : "I'm just drawing youguy's cards...." LMAO

[@NewOldEBM]

I don't understand how you 'run out' of lands in Mina and Denn? They literally let you play as many as you want by just returning them to your hand? Seems like a weirdass reason to skimp off of landfall.

[@wesleyulloa6062]

I’m unable to watch the entire video, maybe someone can help me out - With Kykar, I run this issue of having either too many or not enough of cards that are similar to Kykar - Token makers or pingers that trigger on spell cast. What’s the appropriate number of cards like this? 10?

[@nikuhotzel2677]

If you upload the commander games on KZbin I'll watch them but it absolutely sucks to watch stuff on twitch

[@Dubi264]

What kind of numbers do you use for more limited supporting cards like sac outlets or mass haste sources? In my omnath deck I only have 25 ramp cards because I wanted room for 5 sac outlets, 3 or 4 haste anthems, and a high 41 land count.

[@moxopal675]

5 sac outlets seems hi but there is a sac outlet land that is good for omnath

[@kingfuzzy2]

8 is the max you should use for sacc /complimentary synergy cards. High synergy you can have up to 30-35

[@hopposai787]

funny considering they're releasing core set 21, jumpstart, and double masters all within about a month. corse set 21 is the one i didn't buy a box for. choices had to be made and it i thought was the least exciting, and who wants to waste even more rare slots on those damn temples. so it was a skip for me.

[@joshuasinger4649]

Seems like Myriad landscape is a total...waste in those colorless decks.

[@KhuxNation]

How often do you guys do the “Challenge the Stats” episodes?

[@serafimb2319]

I think challenge the stats is a small segment in every single episode!

[@KhuxNation]

Serafim B they actually had a full episode last month dedicated to challenge the stats. I really enjoyed it and hope they do it again

[@kingfuzzy2]

Me too thanks

[@brianjones7754]

So Dana is is grind it till you find it?

[@kandjar]

Oloro and Karlov aside from their synergy with the life mecanics, are centered around two very different strategies. Oloro decks are more focus around "Life gain triggers", and paying life to as resource Whereas Karlov has the triggers already embedded, so he's more centered around gaining life, to get that triggers going. A more fair comparison would be: Licia vs Karlov; they both should have strategies built around the life gain aspect.

[@almisami]

If you're running Gavi without cycling Decree of Annihilation, you're doing something wrong.

[@suntitan4419]

Not being able to fetch wastes is something they need to fix in my play group we have agreed that they are basic lands and it’s ridiculous

[@coreyroberson4550]

This isn't really an issue that needs to be fixed - you just have to run the right card. In the challenge the stats episode, they referred to Myraid Landscape, which does a very specific thing: "two basic land cards that share a land type." Whereas Armillary Sphere just says "two basic land cards." They're not meant to be the same ability (and, yes, I know one puts them in play and the other in hand). There are several other cards, all capable of searching for Wastes - Solemn Simulacrum, Wayfarer's Bauble, Sword of the Animist, etc. The whole point of Wastes is that they are colorless basics WITHOUT a type. This prevents Domain from gaining a sixth type, but it also means it doesn't interact with cards that care about land type. That's not a flaw to be fixed; it's just card-specific, like most other things in our format. You wouldn't expect a Wood Elves to tutor a Gruul Guildgate even though it can tutor Stomping Ground; this is no different.

[@jamesoakley9333]

Just here for the algorithm

[@rafikvz]

No Timmy strategy analysis? :(

[@facehill72]

Wow

[@Thejoker726]

Does Joey watch Haikyuu???

[@RecklessFables]

Regarding Myriad landscape, I think what you found is that a lot of people are just misusing it

[@jarredjenkins8054]

Lands 34-37 Ramp 10+ Draw 10+ Removal 10+ Synergy 33+

[@staren1991]

you got Triskaidekaphobia backwards... first those with 13 life loses the game, THEN everyone gets/loses 1 life