EEVblog 1475 - What's This SMD Part?

Answering another viewer question. Can we identify or find an alternative for this SMD part?
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#ElectronicsCreators #SMD #Components

[@toobigtofit3584]

Another thing to be careful with if you're going to "drop in" a regulator without knowing what the original part was: the enable may be either Active Low, or Active High.

[@mikeselectricstuff]

Running a feedback line under the inductor would be a terrible layout decision as it's a sensitive node that needs to be kept well away from the noisy switching output

[@avinadadmendez4019]

It is but well, if it works...

[@matthewellisor5835]

@@avinadadmendez4019 "stupid but works" is still stupid, right?

[@rolandklein8260]

Not good, indeed!

[@jb5631]

@@avinadadmendez4019 well sort off.. with ruined values

[@Peter_S_]

Indeed. That was my first thought.

[@andrereuter6521]

I would definitely buy a giant EEVblog poster with all the SMD packages...

[@abeleski]

its a sad industry when you cant identify a part by what's written on the chip.

[@TheDefpom]

I would be inclined to get the connections figured out from the switching regulator to figure out where it is going (probably the big IC), and then get the data sheet for the IC and find out what the input voltage should be.

[@EEVblog]

Yes, further PCB analysis would be required to do it properly.

[@pjlegault6153]

I was just checking to make sure that was already commented. Knowing the expected situation regarding output might be easy to find out or assume by checking the board and the regulator's power clientele.

[@ikocheratcr]

Maybe that IC has an eval board with schematics, and the regulator might be the one used here.

[@muctop17]

Back to the roots! Thank you Dave! That´s where we all came from, watching your brilliance in analyzing I´m so happy

[@Robin-ky4lc]

18:28 actually, this is not a filter cap, it is a feedback-forward cap which allows to adjust/improve the phase margin of the regulator by compensating the low pass behavior of the feedback path.

[@dh2032]

the sizes big mixed with small pin contact traces, big clue it not big for no reason if a little trace will do?

[@Robin-ky4lc]

@@dh2032 ?

[@Mr.Unacceptable]

This reads like like it could be an engineers line in some new space drama. Just need to finish with something like. ....in the Heisenberg Compensator.

[@deker0954]

Interesting, I need to learn what that all means. PS, so it's for detecting and compensation for high frequency noise that otherwise would not be compensated for?

[@Robin-ky4lc]

@@deker0954 No, here is a quick simplified explanation: The cap makes sure that your regulator does not oscillate because your feedpack path has some phase shift, as well as the actual regulator, and if that shift gets too high the regulator will oscillate. The cap practically lowers the phase shift in the feedback path.

[@thishandlecrapisstupid]

After all these years, your videos are among the tiny few here on this website where I still learn stuff.

[@JWH3]

You should definitely do some more random dives like this on a variety of different cases, I think it's good to step people through your reverse engineering process with limited information.

[@amirb715]

Mostl likely this is AAT1141 made by Analogic Tech (Fast Transient 600mA Step-Down Converter) pin out is quite general like the ones mentioned in the video but the marking matches AAT1141

[@richardrudek01]

Nice work. AAT1141 ... Output Voltage: Adj 0.6 to VIN Package: SOT23-5 Marking: *1Axyy [2]* ... [2] xyy = assembly and date code.

[@EEVblog]

Different pinout, but does start with 1A. Good lead.

[@ashleshbhat]

@@EEVblog found the chip its, FT440AA from Fremont Micro Devices Ltd. Had to filter out obsolete parts to get to this 😅.

[@byronwatkins2565]

Good job, Dave! So many beginners would be lost and so few KZbin videos address this.

[@cmscoby]

What a wonderful public service you do for us young players in the design community!!!!

[@taylorsharp5928]

I wish people would take wider shots when they ask stuff like this. The context clues about what it's connected to are very helpful.

[@stitchfinger7678]

Most people that do this are probably hoping someone simply recognizes the part.

[@EEVblog]

In the end though this made for batter video, as I guessed wrong, and you can learn from wrong guesses and it inspires more discussion about the options.

[@frogz]

when searching open google for very specific things, do not forget to add "quote marks" around your search to force it to search that SPECIFIC term, it didnt help me find this part directly but it did bring me onto onsemi

[@MikkoRantalainen]

16:30 Great detective work and I learned to figure out unknown chips better given this example.

[@ProfMannion]

Great Content. I imagine it's incredibly hard writing 30 minutes of component level electronics yet you always pull it off.

[@sourabhshete1994]

Thanks for another amazing video. As an automotive electronics design engineer this helps me to understand how to approach and identify components while benchmarking a design. One more input I'd like to give since this is a automotive application pcb. We could trim the list of components of required by filtering it by AEC Q qualified components and remove them commercial grade components. Thanks again....

[@seritools]

Here's a workaround for the small cursor capture: 1) disable cursor capture in OBS/XSplit 2) open the Windows Magnifier (the accessibility tool) and just have it zoomed out at 100%. Just keep it open in the background. This will cause Windows to render the cursor differently, straight to the screen/desktop texture.

[@MrPnew1]

Thanks for the logical and thorough examination Dave.

[@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS]

I guessed it was a voltage regulator but it's absolutely insane you figured so much out about the circuit just from that one image.

[@Nik930714]

There are some awesome TI SOT23-5 switching regulators that can go up to 5A. They get quite toasty at 5A (but they still work fine at 25 degrees ambient), so i use them to around 2-3A and they stay quite cool at that kind of load. They do this by having a really interesting bonding technology that is done using the pin frames, and not just the thine bonding wires. That way then can dissipate a lot more heat than usual SOT23-5.

[@NoajmIsMyName]

Great analysis with a small picture of unknown circuit

[@heikojakob6491]

Nisshinbo is the successor of New Japan Radio and Ricoh Electronic Devices.

[@groovejet33]

Thank you Dave. I've been waiting for a new video to watch. Nothing lately has taken my fancy, in regards to my Subscriptions. So Cheers Sheila 😉😁

[@shiftctrlhack]

Yes ! Great video.. Keep making more like this if you can. This helps a big part of the community that is new to electronics. Thank you !!

[@samheasmanwhite]

This is a nice deep-dive into component identification. Good video!

[@TheHuesSciTech]

21:00 The internal reference voltage for adjustable regulators **is** generally visible in parametric search -- as the minimum value in the Output Voltage Range. Because, after all, R2 = 0, R1 = open leads to Vout = Vref. You might not want to bet your kids on the parametric value being correct, but it's hugely helpful as a first filtering pass at least.

[@Turbochargedtwelve]

So much of engineering is just knowing how to read and understand technical data

[@2012TheAndromeda]

That was very helpful! Lots of new information learned. Thank you!

[@TrickyNekro]

Also because it's a recorder and not incorporated in the car, the only failure mode they have to care about is not shorting the busses / create problems when it monitors, so it could just be an obscure Chinese jobby because they just don't care. These don't have to be AEC-100 / 101.

[@Artichoke4Head]

you don't know how helpful this video was! always wanted to find a good source for this issue! awsome! thanks a lot! I always assumed those characters mean everything and you must be able to find the part from that characters. always thought my lack of knowledge was the culprit and there must be a website with those answers for finding parts! but now, knowing it's not always a straightforward path, I dig deeper. also do not forget the EEVblog's hivemind either.

[@realdragon]

He figured out more in a minute than I could ever do after hours of googling

[@danandrei96]

@27:35 I'd assume the PH stands for PHASE, it's much more common notation for multi-phase VRMs rather than a simple buck regulator like this

[@timthompson468]

It seems strange to me that the industry doesn’t supply an accurate reference for those small SMT package markings. That would save a lot of time and could be kept up to date by the manufacturers.

[@Peter_S_]

They're really only for limited inventory differentiation during assembly. The label on the reel has the full data and you typically know what parts are on your BOM.

[@vijaymenon5738]

@@Peter_S_ I think so too, also these things are designed to use and throwaway not to be serviced/repaired.

[@SianaGearz]

@@vijaymenon5738 SMD isn't anyhow anti repair, you just need the schematic and the placement plan in the service manual. The cramped space on the component body and the PCB is not conductive to putting much info there.

[@evensgrey]

@@SianaGearz And, given that service manuals are likely to b soft docs only, there's no real reason to not have a schematic and a board view in there. There'd be significantly less e-waste if manufacturers would provide repair info.

[@georgiojansen7758]

👍

[@ToBeDefined85]

Sometimes they tell you the marking code in the order section of the data sheet. So if you find a part that could be the part you are searching for (expected pinout, measured values = spec values) then (if you are very lucky of course) check if the data sheet tells you something about the marking in the order section and compare.

[@ikocheratcr]

With the current information about the possible regulator, the next move is to check if that output transistor is shorted or open. A short case there is more damage down the output. Otherwise, what is the load, and see if an alternative regulator approach is feasible.

[@joogosa]

Filtering chip selection for specific reference voltages can be done by filtering minimum Vout because minimum Vout is in most cases limited by reference voltage.

[@johnwest7993]

When I see a couple different chips with most things looking the same I like to actually look at the die footprint in the datasheet to see if one is essentially just a clone of the other.

[@Psi105]

PH is probably Phase, they probably seller multiphase switching chips with PH1 - PHn pins.

[@RastaJediX]

Great video! I learned so much just in this one video!

[@RexxSchneider]

The next line of investigation is to determine the voltage at the feedback pin. If you have another board that's working, or you know the output voltage for these type of cards, or you know the working voltage for one of the the other chips onboard, you have the output voltage. Then it's just a matter of measuring the resistors in the divider network. For example, if you have 200K and 100K and you know the output voltage should be 1.8V, then you know the reference voltage is 0.6V. That allows you narrow your search to parts that have an adjustable range from 0.6V upwards. You actually _do_ have the reference voltage in your parametric search: it's the minimum value for the adjustable output.

[@rjordans]

This last one also has a much lower switching frequency which would probably work better with the current inductor size

[@thehobe2111]

I have the most respect for your diverse knowledge of electronics-you remind me of Jim Williams (who I used to work beside at NSM and Linear Tech). I do not agree with your cavalier opinion regarding the replacement since the inductor value is heavily dependent on the switching regulator frequency and operating current level. Too low a frequency and the inductor could well saturate; too high a switching frequency and the inductor could not supply the output current. I do not consider myself an expert but have designed several current mode switching regulators at Linear Tech. Switching regulators have a very wide range of operating frequencies, from 50kHz to several Mhz, requiring very different inductive elements.

[@travelthetropics6190]

my initial thought was that it would be a 3 V / 1 A regulator considering the marking :D

[@KeritechElectronics]

Hey, thanks for a load of useful tips for SMT reverse engineering!

[@juminal1347]

Where does my random scroll down stop? What a chance :D

[@PlasmaHH]

8:20 in case you can reason in any way about the involved voltages and currents one can reduce the list even more

[@t1d100]

Good subject and content. Thank you.

[@Foobar_The_Fat_Penguin]

Anyone know a good chart of all SMD (and perhaps even TH) packages? I found a few via Google, but none that seem to have everything on them.

[@DLSDKING]

I remember finding the exact part number used in a D-Link wifi camera(some 6000 series wifi camera with 3 regulators) longtime back. I accidentally broke the inductor while disassembling it out of curiosity. Had to replace it with a similar inductor from a dead NVidia graphics card.

[@cpm1003]

Half-way around the world from you, Coilcraft is based right here in my hometown!

[@ZeroalphaAu]

Would be awesome to see the end outcome of what part they used

[@rusty-]

Date code on the big chip suggests the part is like 20 years old.

[@Nicolas-bo3we]

Getting your feedback voltage after it has been filtered by the output capacitors is good practice/design, you should not get your feedback at the pad under the inductor. Then you get less noise on your feedback.

[@keithglynn9237]

This is so nice to watch and listen to. I am an absolute novice with a soldering station and a chinese solder sucker gun. I have spent many a days trolling the internet, looking for this exact style of component and circuit explanation without all of the textbook time. I think I have adhd when it comes to long, drawn out theories of each component rather than showing it in an actual circuit and how it is related to the other components. I have a recent model multi - function welder/plasma cutter that I have been trying to repair for months. Without the proper education in this field, I resorted to removal and test of suspected components, replacing questionable ones with exact replacements from digi key among other suppliers and still no proper function...will not start a strong enough arc. I work in the industrial/ commercial hvac trade and have been dealing with a lot of large control board issues from various equipment such as large variable frequency drives and chiller mother boards. I would love to get more involved, so I hope you make more videos like this. Maybe sometime I could even send you some pictures of these control boards. Thanks for what you do !

[@VincentSkerved]

I love these kinds of videos!

[@tunkunrunk]

the first video in English dealing with 5 pins sot23 . before coming across this video , I jusr saw videos in Hindi . how do you check if SOT23-5 is damaged ? can we check with a multimeter ?

[@doofus_robot7287]

When googling part markings, be sure to include something like "IC marking" in your search. That'll weed out the ladies jeans websites ;-)

[@stevedaenginerd]

I guess the same logic could be extended to reversing a more complex part. Such as a chip that has had its numbers scraped off, for example. 😉🤓

[@petesapwell]

Be good to know if this suspect part had an output? And the state of the enable pin, these things usually fail violently…

[@canadianavenger]

(still watching, so not sure if you find a good match) My initial gut reaction is that pin 6 is the VFB, with R5 being the low leg of the voltage divider. (it's heading off towards the output side of the inductor) Leaving Pin 1 to be the enable (or some other function). Running the feedback under the inductor would be a pretty bad layout in my opinion, not to mention it has access to the output plane right beside that small cap right above the inductor, so doesn't make much sense.

[@weerobot]

Excellent Video...

[@EdgyNumber1]

My instant thought was switching voltage regulator, when I saw that 'C' logo in the corner.

[@jkobain]

KZbin keeps recommending me this video, on and on. Now I see what you mean, it's a blackhole.

[@DIESELB1GV8]

Can you help me find EGVCM, not sure for what is code, but for sure is in case sot-23? Thanks

[@user-lp2op9uu1w]

Some issues I have with the layout (Or if someone knows why, please tell me): - Why is the top GND pour so huge with so few vias (one)? This makes the feedback path very long and with a large area. - I'm fairly sure the inductor is the wrong way. By having the witching node connect to the inner turns, the outer will shield the high-frequency inner turns and drop a few dB in noise. - Why are the output capacitors so far apart? - Why is the output pour so huge without any vias? Patch antenna time with capacitive coupling from the switching node, lol. - Enable line under inductor, wtf??? - Why is the switching node the size of California? There is no need for thermal relief for an inductor that size. It will not tombstone because the thermal relief is the only reason I could see for *some* of the area. Ok, In done now! lol

[@nameredacted1242]

Uh, because it's bad layout???

[@Peter_S_]

M, I raise my glass to your standards. 🍷

[@Halabaloosa]

The output capacitors placement and output pour size don’t seem problematic, but the others are genuine concerns. The enable line is also kind of a dodgy decision but wouldn’t hurt that much.

[@nameredacted1242]

@@Halabaloosa We are talking about vias placement. Each capacitor must have its own via right next to respective pad. Drawing an island the size of Greenland, putting multiple components on it, and only using one via to stitch it down is BS!!! Pour is LAST step, NOT first! I do fanout manually always, pour is one of last steps. And after pour is done, additional stitching vias must be placed throughout.

[@echelonrank3927]

with processor core voltage like 1.8v floating aroud, its difficult to picture this as an analog circuit sensitive to noise.

[@stevenbliss989]

Many datasheets also give you the markings for easy elimination. The TPS56... is NOT the part.

[@retrocomputeruser]

It is a nightmare when trying to identify SMD codes because there is no standard. There should have been a standard that they will be given either and alpha, number or a symbol to identify the manufacturer at the start of the marking. That would be a breakthrough because then we could search that manufacturer for the codes remaining to identify the part but I suspect this has been done deliberately to stop right to repair.

[@michaelterrell]

How would you do that with only room for two to four characters on the package? Just the brand marking would quickly use up four characters. That's why marking databases are of limited use. It gets worse, when you don't know what kind of component you suspect as being defective.

[@retrocomputeruser]

@@michaelterrell _"Just the brand marking would quickly use up four characters"_ . I think you misunderstood my comment but maybe I wasn't clear. When I said at the start, I meant the first character. Upper and lower case letters and single digit numbers alone will give 62 manufacturers. Symbols could also be used when those ran out. The remaining character(s) can easily identify the part by selecting the type of package then using the remaining code(s). Again using alpha numeric and if necessary, symbols. Characters on their sides, dots or dashes above and/or below a character (some actually do this) could also be used. As we all know, It's too late for that anyway.

[@michaelterrell]

@@retrocomputeruser 62 wouldn't even begin to cover the number of companies making SMD semiconductors. Take a look at some of the online databases. I've dealt with this for over 30 years. Both from manufacturing and repair.

[@retrocomputeruser]

@@michaelterrell OK so you are *clearly* not reading my comments. 62 was just basic alpha numeric characters. after that there are symbols (!"£$%^)

[@michaelterrell]

@@retrocomputeruser I have known what they are for over 60 years. I also know that many will be too small to read. That is why a capital 'R' is used as a decimal point on SMD resistors. Go ahead and suggest using those markings on components. Bulk T&R transistors are only pennies each, in quantity. The markings are to aid in the proper loading of 'Pick and Place' machines. The Bill of Materials gives the actual part number. The company building the board uses the code on the Item Master to verify the part is correct. I have well over 1400 reels of SMD components for my own work. Many small capacitors don't even ave room for two characters, let alone four. I started with 1206 and have used 0201. the SOT-23 package is too small for many characters. Even with a stereo microscope (Mine is a B&L StereoZoom3), and ;LASER markings, there are limits. How many people will spend over $1000 for a good microscope to repair a sub $100 device?

[@thomasvnl]

What drawing program/website are you using?

[@CodeJeffo]

Can someone help me identify the PDF viewer Dave is using ? Thank you.

[@robertadsett5273]

17V seems low for automotive unless the abs max is a lot higher or you have very good input conditioning

[@NilsJakobson]

Could the reason why its dead.

[@Rx7man]

in the TI datasheet absolute max Vin was 20V..

[@michaelterrell]

How about starting a wiki or database with pinouts, markings and parameters?

[@jeremiahrex]

I expect that this board is being supplied +5V or +3.3V for the CAN transceivers and this regulator is just generating the +1.8V rail for the processor. In that case the input voltage ranges of those parts you found are all fine.

[@TrickyNekro]

If it's a car ( probably also truck ) recorder you look at Vin max of 32V. At this pack you won't get a lot of options. Problem is... you don't know if there is preregulation somewhere. pppffff... Ooooops... you said that also. The part number is really obscure, some letters of the marking should be options and there should be a stable part that's easily searchable.

[@amihaikopel613]

Does it has to be automotive? If so, can this fact narrows down the search for automotive grade parts only?

[@qctester2360]

Sometimes in lower part of pdf u can find marking data

[@andrewwhite1793]

This process of finding a part to fit the circuit is going on a lot at the moment as designers need to find alternate parts for products where chips are discontinued without notice or become unobtanium

[@neutron7]

You might be able to get large mouse pointer by changing the setting in the "old" mouse settings via "main.cpl"

[@jaideep1337]

Someone should come up with an open source database where we can all add part markings and the corresponding part number. These manufacturers make it so hard. What's the point of all these markings if we still can't figure out what part it is. I tend to stay away from sot23 for this exact reason.

[@ferrumignis]

FWIW Richtek use the two character part code followed by three character date code for their switching regs.

[@alexfedorov1160]

Also, given the inductor value of 22uH it's a rather "low" frequency part, 200~300kHz I'd say.

[@sprflyenya]

value looks like 33uH to me

[@KeyCe]

forgot include inductance and pcb layout to search. IC is frequency dependent, and many pcb include this module layout direct from datasheet.

[@strange67x]

thanks for the video 🙂

[@ianmontgomery7534]

One of the problems is that the marking on this chip is not a part number it is called a device code. It is unusual that it doesn't have any brand identifier on it.

[@TomLeg]

You suggest having a poster of SMD shapes ... any suggestions on where to find a poster ... or even a website that lists them? I find it frustrating when a company lists a part's package with their own terminology, which I eventually find as being identical to, say, an SOIC-8

[@supernumex]

try the digikey ruler! PN: pcb-ruler-nd

[@nameredacted1242]

Plus one for DigiKey ruler. But also I grab a few CCAs and I buy a few super-cheap parts when doing layout, because I really want to see it and touch it when playing around in CAD.

[@michaelterrell]

I would rather have had it as a series of screen shots of various packages, sorted by the number of pins. Then you could quickly go to the proper image. The last time I used a wall chart for components was 1966, for the first RCA/SK replacement transistors. It was just a waste of wall space and time when the same information was printed in a shirt pocket sized version.

[@TheHuesSciTech]

10:19 I know this isn't useful, but the Nissinbho RP504 actually has the correct pinout. You were looking at the pin numbering/descriptions for the DFN packages, if you look at the table for the SOT-23-5, you'll find they match the photo.

[@TheHuesSciTech]

(The pinout you originally first assumed from the photo, that is.)

[@gandalf87264]

Do they also give negative feedback?

[@-yeme-]

the difficulty opf identifying parts like these says it all about the wastefulness of the current repair vs replace balance, whether you're talking about swapping out a board rather than bothering with component level repair, or even worse, scrapping an entire product. these components aren't easier to identify because most of the time no one needs to identify them.

[@GeorgeGraves]

LOL at Dave's google suggested/custom search results.

[@prenticedarlington2720]

Blimey, a real Sherlock Holmes!

[@tomaszwota1465]

I have to go to sleep, Dave! Alright, mate, just one more video...

[@jkobain]

Dave Holmes at work!

[@JohnSmith-hn6kv]

Watching this video is like watching an expert doing their thing. Impressive, and ego destroying for the viewer.

[@SianaGearz]

Why would it be ego destroying?

[@neosandi6]

good one mate

[@randycarter2001]

Some data sheets have a package marking section. Can be used to validate your assumption.

[@gabiold]

Exactly my thoughts, those should be the second after checking the pinout, or maybe the first, when you are not that sure with the pinout.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

If those PDF files included package marking info, Google search should have found the PDF file already given the search for the label on chip.

[@randycarter2001]

@@MikkoRantalainen Not necessarily. Some are a drawing of the part with boxes. There is a lead to each box with a description of the box contents. This box is the date code, this box is device family, this box is the version, this box is manufacture plant etc. The google search my pick up on a master table. But when all you have is 2 letters and a number the sea of results is staggering.

[@gabiold]

@@randycarter2001 Yeah, most of the time the marking is a composite number, which include other elements than the part identification code, so there is no exact textual match. And sometimes the PDFs are not public, or maybe they are, but you have to acknowledge something to download, or other kind of non-static web content, so Google might not be able to index it.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

@@randycarter2001 Good points. As there're finite amount of parts, it would make sense to list each specific marking as a string to allow searching but that would require that the chip manufacturers actually cared that these chips are need for repairs, too. As for keeping data sheets non-public for publicly available chips, that's just insane.

[@stevenbliss989]

If pin 1 was FB then it would be connect to the two partial "output" caps shown, so pin 1 must be "EN".

[@xntumrfo9ivrnwf]

Why are the markings on SMD components always so useless? Genuine question...

[@zos8085]

Agree. And if it has FCC approval, such as a telephone plug-pack, why is it approved with no respectable part markings? I have a Yealink charger, whose plastic case is so tough, you could drive over it. (2.5mm walls) But inside is another 5 pin jobbie. No success, bit I did find about 20 Chinese copycat? manufactures . My core belief if a defect or premature lifetime was ever found, there would be no way to back trace it. Once upon a time FCC approval numbers used to turn up good stuff, but no more.

[@xntumrfo9ivrnwf]

@@zos8085 Good points. To be honest I'm not in a professional in the field (I'm more a hobbyist), but it's always been baffling why I can pick up a TO-220 component, and 99% of the time find all the info I need from the marking, however SMD components are little black boxes.

[@JasonDelaneCox]

FT440AA from Fremont Micro Devices Ltd.

[@dh2032]

so at the end of the day it a leap of faith, that may work or let the magic smoke out! and that a good example what if it a bit more toasted, being higher power is likely, not so much with data pins only higher tend to fail big when the fail, and you just have burned blob of plastic to work from? so it going from just replacing part reengineering the lot, now have to have full understanding of the thing is doing, basically now cobbling something to gather to simulate what the part did? good luck on that?

[@nickblacklock7526]

If this is a reading/dataloging device it may well run off 5 volts usb and not require 12 volts. The more you know the better your chances. Thanks again Dave.

[@tomclanys]

if it's a CAN data capture it's definitely running of +12V supply from the vehicle.

[@zachv1942]

Coilcraft makes some good stuff.