EEVblog

What are all those PCB manufacturing options in the checkout when you order your board?
Dave explains each option one by one, from Aluminium to Z-Axis Milling.
Including obscure stuff like Organic Solderability Preservative.
Gerber generation video: • EEVblog #990 - Getting...
PCB Video Playlist: • PCB Design & Manufacture
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#PCB #Manufacture #Explained
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[@LayerCakeMakes]

Uhh PCB movie night :)

[@Afrotechmods]

It's good that this is a long video. All these options used to intimidate the hell out of me back in the day so it's great that you've made such a thorough guide for beginners. A flex PCB series from start to finish would be cool!

[@p_mouse8676]

I agree with the information point of view, even said from a professional. But the video could be a lot shorter.

[@xnetworkDEVILx]

Omg ....teacher you are alive 😭😭😭

[@Stormbolter]

@@p_mouse8676 I guess you haven't seen much videos from EEV. This guy reeeeeallly loves talking :D

[@p_mouse8676]

@@Stormbolter I guess I have been there from the start even maybe. I am sorry, but good narrating also involves good editing of the videos. Just pausing and fast-forwarding is not gonna change that. But I guess science only applies on the things people want to apply it too.

[@richardlighthouse5328]

Goddamn it, when you upload. Stop wasting time on watching some others peoples videos, its procrastination.

[@ChipGuy]

1:03:40: I have been told by Beta Layout PCB Pool, that the Impedance control box will make sure you really get a 4 layer stackup instead of getting a 6 layer stackup by chance. Reason: Sometimes they fill up 6 layer panels with 4 layer designs when they don't have enough 6 layer designs to fill up the panel.So you end up with different prepreg thicknesses, hence different impedance.

[@chaos.corner]

I designed a few PCBs back in the early 2000s and prototypes were so expensive that my boss told me just to order 200 PCB production runs and try to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. Prices are astoundingly cheap now.

[@EEVblog]

LOL, yep, I remember those days. You couldn't get a decent prototype made for under $800 or so here. You had to by the whole panel. When prototype panels prices came down to $300 a panel that was remarkable.

[@adbethsing383]

A note on FR Tg130 vs Tg 170+ ... .where I find this really comes into play is not in the actual circuit under operation, but during prototyping phases and stages where you're pulling off and soldering back on different components for testing and tuning. For example, trying to get the feedback network right in an active filter ... or, the compensation in a DC/DC converter. Sometimes empirical study is quicker than trying to do diff. eq. The simple fact is that if you're pulling SMT caps/resistors or other components off the prototype PCB, it is much much easier to lift pads on Tg130 than it is on Tg170+. Tg170 survives soldering iron / desoldering iron/tweezer abuse much more readily. Once my prototype / dev board is good to go, I'll usually order production quantities on Tg130

[@GeneralPose]

Would love to see you design a flex-pcb. I wouldn't mind if you did it in kicad, wink wink.

[@Dave5281968]

Thumbs up to the idea of doing a flex-pcb video or series in KiCad!

[@Daniel-ib5bx]

He already did one or two lol

[@Mtaalas]

Again a video that would have saved me countless hours, if not days of trying to figure this stuff out back in the day... You have no idea how important these videos are since they come directly from an EE :)

[@JW-uC]

The chances of me ever having a board made are zero to none... but I still find your vids on these things fascinating (and takes me back to my first job out of school, before I changed industry - many years ago).

[@Spirit532]

Accidentally watched the entire video without realizing how long it was. This is *the* concise explanation of all the manufacturing processes, and a very nice guide to navigating them.

[@EEVblog]

I wouldn't say concise!

[@Spirit532]

@@EEVblog Given the number of options, can't make it much shorter!

[@Pete292323]

Dave: "42 minutes long, geez, that's a watch isn't it?" Also Dave: Proceeds to make a 1 hour and 10 minute long video.

[@EEVblog]

No correspondence will be entered into.

[@steverobbins4872]

Yes, please do a video on flex PCBs. I recently ordered my first flex boards and they were really expensive. I'd love to see some tips on how to hold the cost down.

[@DanielPierce]

This is a great guide for anyone who has a question about certain aspects of the ordering process, especially for the hobbyists among us! Thanks for the video!

[@_adamalfath]

"If your circuit getting a 130-140 degree you'd better know what the hell you're doing" This made me laugh :D

[@iyatemu]

One thing you didn't mention is that a few options can be mixed and these mixes can actually affect cost substantially. If you're designing a card but just need a couple of prototypes for actual fitment or final circuit testing, or as an intermediate step to further build on before officially adding changes, you can select the gold fingers option, AND ask for beveled edges, but keep the surface finish as HASL. You can then order the board and build it up and test to see if it works at all without spending the $200 on the gold fingers. Because of this mix though, cost can also be affected in strange ways. You can order a batch of cards with HASL on the main board but ask for hard gold on the card edge pins, but since this will be a two-stage process, it can actually be CHEAPER to coat the boards entirely in gold, rather than only the edge connector.

[@jlegen]

Silly me always chose options around „keeping the cart at those 5 dollars“ ;-) - many thanks for this profound enlightning!

[@jmonsted]

Can we just take a minute to appreciate that Dave uses bing and actually gets a useful result?

[@EEVblog2]

Only because I don't usually use it so it's a "clean" browser for video capture purposes.

[@MICHhimself]

@@EEVblog2 I think DuckDuckGo would also work for that as they don't do tracking, so past searches shouldn't affect the search results for the video.

[@Dave5281968]

Bing is better for technical searches. Always has been.

[@IvoTrausch]

@@EEVblog2 So, what have we been googling recently? (͡ ° ͜ʖ ͡ °)(͡ ° ͜ʖ ͡ °)(͡ ° ͜ʖ ͡ °)

[@BlueLiquidCell69]

I think the Thermal conductivity @19:10 should be Watts per Meter Kelvin not milli Kelvin ;-)

[@EEVblog]

Doh, yes. Must engage brain next time.

[@abpccpba]

who cares

[@KeanM]

@@abpccpba Anyone doing thermal calculations would care

[@uwezimmermann5427]

@@KeanM yes - but we also know. Especially when you are used to communicate with people from non-metric countries as well ;-)

[@Tim_Small]

As a lowly programmer, I was just happy that I finally found something I knew, that Dave didn't...

[@PilotPlater]

love it Dave. I just sent off my first PCB in about 5 years yesterday. Great to get back into it.

[@Aemilindore]

I remember learning these form you in an earlier video too. Its so nice to see you doing videos of this type again

[@MarcAntoineBvl]

YES! Really excited for this video!

[@GarryNichols]

Looking forward to the flex video. 👍

[@rutgerdejong9616]

Thanks Dave for taking the time to go over all the options, I have learned a lot. Always went with the default settings for PCBs and that seems correct.

[@Dave5281968]

Yes! Please do a video on FPC soldering & application. Some how to on the ordering specs would also be very helpful! Thanks to you for doing all of these great videos Dave!

[@imagesbyscott]

Hey Dave. Awesome video. Yes, please tell us about the flex PCB's.

[@cleverhandlename]

Perfect timing Dave. Just finished a schematic, going into pcb prototyping this week!

[@drussell_]

This will likely be an excellent, helpful resource for many people! :) Well done, great topic.

[@Mecalas]

Thanks for adding to my education. Great job as always mate!

[@TheHaters112]

By the Gods! I've never been this early for an EEVblog.

[@trickyrat483]

Wow, that was a long one. :) Great stuff, Dave.

[@timthompson468]

Thanks. That was very useful. I’ll share this around at work. I don’t need most of those options, but it’s good to know more about what is available.

[@steverobbins4872]

My experience is, when you tell a PCB maker that you have impedance-controlled traces they will actually tweek your line widths according to their proprietary empirical data. This usually gives tighter impedance control than you can get with an impedance calculator app, because they take into account things like plating thickness and undercutting. Also, if you made a mistake calculating your line widths, they will catch it.

[@EEVblog]

Yes, I'd like to think they will catch it, but I still wouldn't want them touching my gerbers. It'd be ok to tweak the prepreg to match, but I'd prefer that they feedback this and it's sorted at the design stage and specified on the stackup. I don't like "secret sauce" data.

[@michelfeinstein]

Edge plating also helps with heat dissipation

[@RaithUK]

Great video thanks Dave, very helpful.

[@IgnazKevenaar]

Fantastic video Dave, very informative. I'd like to see a video (or even a mini-series of design->manufacture) one day of flex pcb's. I'd imagine those have all sorts of unique design and manufacture requirements of their own. Thanks for all the great content :)

[@TheEverardo117]

Fantastic video!

[@michelfeinstein]

Congrats to Laen from OSHPark for his nice PCB Panel appearances

[@EEVblog]

It's a great shot!

[@povicollege3055]

GREAT VIDEO Dave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@vidivana]

42:10 For OSP and Immersion gold 1U" the price is the same ($41). The form kept 3U" thickness selected. Another excellent educational video! Learned much new things! Thank you!

[@MaartenBaert]

27:55 Actually it looks like that design *does* use blind vias ;). 44:25 Immersion silver is also used for RF equipment (like spectrum analyzers) because unlike ENIG it does not contain any ferromagnetic materials that will reduce the skin depth and increase losses.

[@samuelschwager]

Very interesting video. There are so many options to choose from...

[@robfenwitch7403]

"Send it to your metrology department" - Hmmm, it must be in the spare bedroom, I've not looked in there recently :)

[@EEVblog]

Must be sharing with your marketing and human resources departments.

[@DavidWilliams-ov4kn]

Great video, Dave.

[@Subbestionix]

"This video might be just as long!" *goes on 30% longer* xD Lovely video though! Second time i watch it now

[@opros7]

1:05:00 Countersinks: Or you use some riveted pcb mounting post. When they are pressed in, they expand and may require a certain angle to expand so that it won't break the board.

[@SwitchAndLever]

So in the example you list why would you choose resin filled vias rather than plugged vias? Granted they'll be filled with different materials, but the via will still be conductive regardless.

[@simonhopkins3867]

I've considered designing a board so many times but all this has just been too much. Thanks Dave.

[@chaos.corner]

Give it a go. It's a fun skill to learn.

[@JesusisJesus]

YES, do the video.Why not. Dave's book 555 projects to make with a 555 would sell well with 555 flexi PCBs.

[@ChipGuy]

Yes, please do a flex PCB video. Its useful if you have limited space and you need to use flat flex connections.

[@michelfeinstein]

Dave, I would love to see a video where you talk about those obscure uses, metallurgy and etc. I probably won't ever use it, but I find it very interesting to know more about those special use cases.

[@artursmihelsons415]

Thank's Dave for explanation! :) Usually, for prototyping i'm make PCB's in home, but if i want to order some PCB's for bigger projects or mini mass production, this information will make my day better.. ;)

[@chaos.corner]

It's so cheap and quick now that the only real reason to make your own is if you need them right now or you just really enjoy doing it.

[@EEVblog]

I haven't made my own boards for maybe 15 years now.

[@monad_tcp]

43:18 audiophile products, dip everything in pure gold, even the caps

[@planned_obsolescence]

When I design pcb's for audiophile applications, I never use gold plating. The complete pcb and its components are CNCed out of a block of solid gold. You can really hear the difference man

[@EEVblog]

Then add Canadian maple wood PCB standoffs.

[@Asu01]

Don't forget gold-plated audio optic cable. Yes, such thing does exist on the market.

[@chaos.corner]

Gold plated insulators.

[@AttilaAsztalos]

Well it better be Oxygen-Free Gold or else...

[@iainwalker8701]

Can't imagine i will ever get a PCB made, but at least i have a good idea how to now. Very interesting video.

[@eGnarF]

Yeah, we really need a flexitron video =)

[@StreuB1]

Oh lord....this is going to be a good one! I have to head out to do some grocery shopping and then get tacos. To which I will be bringing said tacos back home and proceeding to gorge myself on while watching this vid!!

[@LebrelZ]

Hard gold is extremely difficult to solder to, but it's wire-bondable while ENIG isn't (ENEPIG is too). Immersion silver is used a lot in RF for surface-finishing uncoated traces (when you can't tolerate soldermask variability), as it's a very thin and even finish and minimizes skin effect losses. Also, the nickel in ENIG/ENEPIG ruins the day at (very) high frequencies due to its magnetic properties.

[@rentabomb]

Very informative video dave. The flex pcb video would interest me ;)

[@chuckpatten7855]

If you do decide to go down the rabbit warren with rigid-flex design you might want to include forming the radius of the bend of the final flex shape using a cylindrical mandrel to determine the length of the individual flex layers.

[@StreuB1]

Ok, tacos are eaten, we're 40min in and man, this is JAM PACKED!!!! This is a stellar video so far. Makes me want to design some PCB's now!! Cept I don't know how.... :-\

[@steverpcb]

Great video, but you stopped before dealing with stencils, I had a look back at one of your old videos where you used a stencil which was out of date. Do negative values for paste mask work, alignment holes to suit those in the boarder of the pcb, thickness, and other stuff ?

[@klazzera]

17:02, you got the concept about Tg right, but in this case it's about the resin. For the glass fibers themselves, the Tg is around 1000 degrees celcius.

[@michelfeinstein]

Another reason for blind vias is to avoid stubs on high-speed circuits, that can cause reflections and distortions.

[@thomasbecker9676]

I've had a pretty good experience with JLC thus far for hobby-type boards. EDIT: I use black soldermask, but it was a concious choice, and I'm the only one assembling them.

[@Zonkotron]

Current rating for a 48 V forklift VFD can be several hundred amps per phase. 4 and 8 ounces become very thin at those values ;)

[@damny0utoobe]

Dave explains PCB options at PCBway

[@oleenick]

YES! A gigatron flex would be great.

[@steverobbins4872]

I saw a KZbin video by someone a couple of years ago who used an aluminum-backed PCB as the front panel of an instrument. Apparently, they will solder-mask (paint?) and silk-screen both sides, just like a normal PCB. I think he claimed it was actually a lot cheaper than going to a place that makes custom front panels. But I can't confirm this is true. Does anyone else know?

[@EEVblog]

Yep, very likely cheaper to do it as a PCB, as that industry has been in a race to the bottom in price, so you benefit from that.

[@Keex11]

I have done this for small volume front panels for extruded enclosures as well. Works quite nicely in matte black. It is a lot cheaper than cnc parts and has more options than laser cut parts.

[@steverobbins4872]

@@Keex11 Thanks! Good to know.

[@cashewmilkfan]

47:40 plain copper can work well if you are in a low voltage sensitive circuit connection since a direct copper to copper connection generates very little thermal emf.

[@typxxilps]

Great explanation and serious approach to bring light in the jungles ... and in a pixeled way ... hope they stop spamming cause it is the modern ages pest or cholera choice.

[@DantalionNl]

39:21 Do I spot an unintended bridged connection on the usb connector?

[@StreuB1]

Finished.....I think I need a scotch and a cigarette, and I quit smoking 9 years ago. -long slow clap- this was excellent. Real top shelf stuff here Dave. Thank you and honestly, I can see this is only a beginning and can see some more knock-on videos down the road. You did too good of a job, people will want to go down the rabbit hole now. :-)

[@EEVblog]

Thanks. There are endless rabbit holes here.

[@AlexA-nz6kk]

Dave, I think you are a bit wrong about a press-fit option. It is not intended for standoffs. Press-fit is for a special type of press-fit connectors (www.connectorsupplier.com/wp-content/uploads/press-fit-contact.gif) which are actually pressed into the board and have some spring type of contacts. Such technology provides better robustness to mechanical shock. If your hole would be less - the connector won't fit. If it would be a bit bigger - the connector won't stay at its place. That's why you need a better tolerance with such type of things.

[@EEVblog2]

I was just using that was an example, and I mentioned component legs.

[@josephchiu4034]

Edge plating are sometimes used by straddle-mount board edge sockets where the ground blade in the center of the connector connects direct into the planes.

[@demoncloud6147]

Press fit holes is what I need !

[@captainchapan]

Would love a video on flex PCBs please!

[@sultan7679]

Thanks

[@poisonbiting5639]

please do a video on flex PCBs.

[@Rob2]

And as always, I hope you learned something!

[@CyrusBrinkworthRAS]

wow, I'll keep going by hand fore me it is all right. I am gone a check that program that I didn’t know(Actium designer).... thank you to be around........

[@CyrusBrinkworthRAS]

450$ not for my actual budget...

[@johnsaeid95]

Hello Sir Is there a video for design rules for PCBWAY as they are some of them vague on their website

[@MattHollands]

Manufacturer adding UL marking makes sense because if you add it to your gerbers, and send it to a manufacturer who doesn't meet spec, it's not UL certified.

[@imir8atu321]

wish I seen this when I was 9 year's old. Thumb's up.

[@TheBodgybrothers]

The internet didnt exist when i was 9 years old

[@redtails]

does anyone know if, in the EU, you pay tax over the value of the board or over the full price incl shipping? I'd love to design a few boards though want to try my luck and keep it below 22€ to get them tax-free

[@lostgurureboot]

Is there a reason glossy black isn't desirable for your solder mask? What about matte black or any other dark color?

[@robertmccully2792]

EEVblog #1 - Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope Review 10 years ago.... What is the best scope now using that video as a guideline?

[@kuukatti]

My guess about delivery time for more layers is that they require extra time for inner layers of prepreg to cure before they stack the whole sandwich

[@renaudfensie3020]

Nice open source padauk programmer PCB ;-) hope to get a vid about it

[@Shadowdncer]

Dave: "If you choose matte black, it doesn't let you have a black silkscreen. That makes sense." Apple: "Hold my beer!"

[@mr_gerber]

Yeah, I'm fairly certain Apple doesn't order their pcbs through the prototype web form of pcbway.com

[@Psi105]

27:30 That board does have some blind vias on it. The via's that have two color semicircle in the middle of them are blind. The via's that are just solid brown inside are normal via's. In this case you can see the two semicircles are red and purple which means they go between those two layers. Looks to be a 10 layer board with some blind via's from L1 to L9

[@petersage5157]

Based on the turnaround time at three-letter-acronym PCB (only ordered two so far, but in both cases it took them less than an hour to fit the board onto a panel, so what's a "standard" panel size divided by one hundredth of a square meter?) and my experience in the service industry, I'd say these guys have a near-constant stream of cheap prototype orders coming in and take in enough just from the $2 orders to keep the staff well compensated, keep the lights on and still pocket a tidy sum at the end of the day. Part of my day job involves folding a helluva lotta boxes per day. I've often said "If I had a nickel..." Then I did the math and understood just how many nickels that would be. My point is, the cheap prototype PCB fabricators have the economies of scale to turn a profit.

[@MatthewSuffidy]

It is amazing if the file formats totally describe all the parameters of all these features and is standard.

[@andrewkowalczyk1156]

FINALLY!!!

[@MaykThewessen]

What website is this where you can order metal core boards? With aluminium backing

[@gustavlicht9620]

Dave, a comment about the thermal conductivity, the unit is watt per meter-kelvin (as in a product of a meter and Kelvin), not watt per milli kelvin.

[@justfabulous3941]

About the "panel by manufacturer" option: I have experience with this specific manufacturer, they seem to be quite competent regarding their panel design. We had some back an forth regarding the edge quality of the finished product but came to a finished design within a day. They also provided me with the panel production files afterwards. I guess doing the panel yourself would give even more control but with the files in hand I could probably have them assembled without problems as well. Opinions?

[@radry100]

You mention that 2 layer might be cheaper than 1 layer. What if I draw my layout in a way that just edges way all of the second layers copper? That would also result in a "2" layer board but functions like a 1 layer board.

[@Basement-Science]

They will probably still plate all your through holes.

[@km5405]

if they have stock of single layer material, the single layer process might be cheaper because it has slightly less steps?

[@greglaletin]

Could you recommend suppliers for pcb mass production and pick and place. Is it worth while getting a Sydney manufacturer?

[@billyhart3299]

Any suggested PCB materials if I want to laser cut it?

[@thomasesr]

Usually those most expensive boards 250 dollhairs for 5 boards are better to order in bigger quantities. Like instead of 250 for 5 boards you get 350 for 50 boards or something like that.

[@mrembeh1848]

Oh. If this video had timestamps... maybe with the new KZbin feature, we could add these in post..