EFAP

Metal - / metalcommander
Fringy - / thefringy123
Rags - / @rags
Second Channel (EFAP Archive) - / @everyframeapause
A Fansite that's all about EFAP - efap.me/
A Community to discuss EFAP - / mauler
Audio versions of the podcast - / user-624219017
We have KZbin members enabled - Use the link and choose "Join" to subscribe monthly and receive emotes for the stream. - / themauleryt
If you want to join my silly community on Discord, use this link - discordapp.com...
If you want to donate towards the channel you can use Superchats or Streamlabs:
This essentially uses PayPal instead of going through KZbin - streamlabs.com...
MauLer's Patreon - www.patreon.co...
Rags' Patreon - / yourpalrags
MauLer's Merch Store - teespring.com/...
MauLer's Subscribestar - www.subscribes...
Rags' SubscribeStar - www.subscribes...

[@SICK2210]

This movie is about Poe chasing spice again. Phenomenal.

[@matthewcollins4773]

No Babu Frik, 1/10.

[@TheMaleRei]

No Rose Tico 11/10.

[@lordofthepizzapie9319]

This thread represents the duality of man.

[@Party_Almsivi]

If you told him that, he’d almost certainly sigh, very audibly.

[@melodramaticjerbear155]

It's the Han Solo school of character development. You start in the smuggling trade, you develop into a hero, then years later you go right back to smuggling.

[@jjjmadness8306]

This whole video from The Closer Look can be summed up as "Dune a good movie, but it would be better if I did it." and once you hear his idea version of Dune, you quickly realize no... no, it wouldn't.

[@sparkypack]

It starts 4:31:05.. at 4:53:08, Mauler let him go. 😄

[@HisNameWasCrazy]

I always hate when reviewers do that. You're supposed to be talking about the movie, not indulging in your own wannabe filmmaker fantasies. One of my few problems with Red Letter Media for instance when they go on similar tangents. I have almost no idea why Mike hates the new Ghostbusters so much 'cos he spent most of the time inventing his own version of what they shoulda' done, which sounded near unwatchable. All it does is make your opinions on films seem far less credible when you reveal how bad your own ideas are, and shows a completely delusional sense of creative superiority in the process.

[@gwoody4003]

Familiar with Phish and their fans? Always that one hipster know it all guy walking out the show who goes to every show for the past 20 years and criticises the entire performance, speaking to nobody so everyone can hear, based on "well what I would have done is...." and "Odd choice to play X before Y" and "those shows you weren't at and I was.... those were the shows. This shit is a joke" and then finally "I'll go to the next one, but nobody but me understands why it used to be so much better" Man.... comsidering your exclusive knowledge and vast experience... why don't YOU have a internationally sucessful 3 decade spanning musical phenomenon of your own? Why are you just flipping grilled cheese and LSD in the lot? You should be producing, bro!.

[@sagacity1071]

EpIc

[@NormieNerddom]

Sometimes amateur writers do a better job than pros. His Last of Us 2 vid was awesome.

[@braddl9442]

I think a lot of issues you guys are having with how tech works, and what is possible etc. Is due to the fact the DUNE books were written in the 60s. The writers understanding of tech and what it can do is running into your modern understanding of tech and how you can use it. VTOL stuff like harriers as we know it was not really common yet the ornithopters have more in common with autogyros then helicopters. Computers and even how remote video works as not common yet, so things like drones and how hunter killer would work, the writer had to create out of nothing. Also the politics in DUNE and how the harkonen sabotaged everything before leaving...that was common when colonial powers changed ownership of territories. A lot of the crap going on in dune has historical reference to things that happened in pre WW1 history on earth. Cheating on treaties, honor, and perception in a pre mass communication world factor in etc.

[@Skyhighjettalone]

@Brad DL I agree completely with your statement. That being said, the movie didn't stay completely faithful with the source material mostly in its omitted parts. The two I want to highlight in particular are the dinner party and Kynds motivation. The 1st part is absolutely central to the politics on Dune and helps to frame pretty much where every factions stands and how the interact, compete, and coexist with each other. Kynds' motivation is touched on during the party and is pivotal to why he ends up choosing a side, specifically Paul's side, later on.

[@MediumRareOpinions]

Holtzman Suspensors or hover tech agitates the Sandworms in the Dune Novels. Using it on Dune would drive not only the local worms into a frenzy but also attract them across large distances.

[@adamjd7645]

Most of their problem is they've become arrogant. They want everything to be explained, in detail NOW. They need to accept this is the way the world works, deal with it & look at its internal consistency. Instead, they're comparing to what they know of the real world. It's a flawed analysis from the get-go.

[@KneelB4Bacon]

I felt the same way about watching this movie as I did when I saw "Bladerunner 2049." I thought the visuals and sound design were amazing. I completely bought into the reality of both those worlds. But I also thought the stories in both of these movies were utter nonsense. Critical information is missing that explains technology, character abilities and character motivations.

[@adamjd7645]

@@KneelB4Bacon Why do you need all that info now? It's Iike demanding a full explanation of the Force after seeing Obi Wan mind-trick the stormtroopers in Most Eisley. As for the story, it's pretty clear & obviously setting up for the tale to follow (a warning about blindly following messianic figures).

[@dialaskisel5929]

I'm a little surprised by the poor take on the Emperor's plan. Maybe I've played a little too much Crusader Kings in my time, but it seems pretty obvious what he is doing and why. A popular, powerful vassal represents a significant threat to a King/Emperor, as they can gather support from other lords to either demand changes or even lead a rebellion against the emperor if they so choose. Attacking your own vassal directly, however, would almost immediately trigger outrage and rebellion from your other lords, as an emperor is (at least theoretically) meant to be protecting his vassals in exchange for their loyalty, almost like a contract, and that would be a breach of that contract, meaning that all vassals would know that they would no longer be safe. Instead, he is fanning the flames of conflict between Atreides and Harkonnen, two houses that historically don't like one another, and is doing so by (at least on the surface) rewarding House Atreides for their loyalty to him and punishing the Harkonnens for their failures. What the rest of the Empire sees is the Emperor rewarding a loyal house, and then that house screwing up royally on their assigned task, followed by the much-hated Harkonnens then spontaneously attacking the beloved Atreides to reclaim a world they think is theirs and is (more pragmatically) their primary source of wealth. The Harkonnens look like the villains here, which they don't care about anyway, and the Emperor looks innocent in the destruction of House Atreides, whilst decisively eliminating a major threat to his power. As far as the Emperor sabotaging and setting up the Atreides for failure, the only people who know for sure what is actually going on are those who are more in-the-know about the Empire's secrets like the Bene Gesserit (who seem to pretty much know everything and have their own agenda completely separate from the affairs of the noble houses), the Saudarkar (The emperor's personal elite force), and the Harkonnens (who apparently don't care about being hated, and who get the benefit of more easily eliminating a hated rival), and the Judge of the Change (who is apparently meant to be a yes-man for the emperor and whose ruling is supposed to support his unfair agenda... and who could have plausibly been killed by the Harkonnens "accidentally" during the crossfire, so she couldn't speak out against the emperor anyway). Everybody else would, at best, be biased in favor of House Atreides making their statements unreliable, meaning they could be seen as Atreides apologists and conspiracy theorists or, at worst, may not have any clue of the emperor's machinations at all. Even if people who know better would have been taken seriously, it was established earlier in the movie that a lot of public information is, at the very least, biased and unfair in favor of the emperor and his cronies (as the Freman are unfairly accused of being violent and untrustworthy in Paul's little wikipedia article near the beginning). This isn't like our world where Paul could just jump on Twitter and go "omg, emperor just set up and killed my whole family! What a jerk!" By the way, I haven't read the books, this is just coming from what has been established in the film itself (and my inferences)

[@nullpexception]

Excellent points. And if the political disposal becomes an "open secret" it acts as a warning and deterrent for the other houses.

[@ahsanhaider6549]

Emperors own militia was involved in the wiping of the Atrudes house. Besides, even if people didn't know about the involvement of Sandukas, wouldn't this paint a very sad image of the emperor as a powerless guy who can't do anything to stop one clan from getting eliminated? Wouldn't this make people more afraid and subservient to the Harkonens, or polar opposite of that, wouldn't it provoke other clans to join together erase Harkonens considering them as lose cannons as Atrudes was a respected clan? It looked as if only Harkonens and Atrudes had the brains while the emperor only had jealousy and an army.

[@EliteVesper]

@@ahsanhaider6549 Something the movie doesn't contain from my understanding, is it never explains Kanly, which are legal blood feuds, permitted by the Landsraad (an assembly of all the major and minor houses that are vassals of the emperor) that allows two houses to fight to the death, generation-to-generation, until one house is extinct or a peace agreement is made. Its basically explained as a way to prevent violence from evolving into a universe-wide conflict harming innocent worlds by segregating the conflict to only the two houses involved, with it being illegal for any other house to interfere or ally with either party against the other. The Atriedes and Harkonnens have been in a legal feud for generations at this point, so any conflict between them is seen as perfectly legal by all the other houses of the imperium. Hence, the Emperor wouldn't be looked down upon by allowing the Harkonnens to wipe out the Atriedes, but would be if he aided the Harkonnens as that would be illegal interference into the feud. Any interference would likely cause the Landsraad to form a coalition against the emperor as one of their functions is to prevent imperial aggression singling out an one house and their combined strength is supposed to be equal to the emperor.

[@peteomarjebdollosa9170]

​@@EliteVesper The film doesn't establish the legal blood feud and that's why everyone's so confused. The Atriedes can call the Emperor for help against the Harkonnen sabotage, but they don't. As far as film viewers know, everyone in the galaxy would be on the Emperor's ass for doing nothing, which calls to question why the Emperor did it in the first place. All this confusion could've been solved if they just properly adapted the books.

[@EliteVesper]

@@peteomarjebdollosa9170 I agree and I know it doesn't. Not explaining that really does confuse the story in movie. They definitely should've included a scene towards the first half establishing it so it's clear to the audience the Atriedes and Harkonnens are basically at war with one another, and the emperor is not allowed to interfer to help or force peace. Having gotten a chance to watch it in fully finally, I think it would have been to the films and series benefit to split the first novel into three rather than two movies, just to explain some of the more nuanced concepts of the Dune Universe that need explaining for general audiences. You shouldn't need to have read the books or wiki to understand why things are happening in the movie the way they are.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

I generally try to be constructive about criticism, having received so much of it during my KZbin career, but I'm sorry, Closer Look's structure is so abominably broken. Setups *_after_* payoffs, *_WAY_* too much happening at once, and one trope I hate is when YOU know who the traitor is for a long time, but all the characters are oblivious to it (as they would be in his edit). For what Dune 2021 got wrong, they succeeded in delivering a streamlined version of the story, with most of the unnecessary lore complexities left for its 2nd part, which is a great way of doing it, considering how mind-bogglingly confusing Dune 1984 was.

[@lore_shards]

On a separate note, I've seen you on Efap before mr. Indigo but had never checked out your channel until today! Watched your Elder Scrolls Unfufilled Promise video, really well done! You spent alot of time on it and it shows. I'd be curious what you think of their 10th anniversary that just got released as it now has a survival mode etc. And if it would change your overall opinion? Sorry for the sidetrack! Dune was pretty great overall, solid, not mindblowing but solid.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

@Kyro Sinclair I've found more often than not I agree with his overall take, but STRONGLY disagree with his arguments. Very weird.

[@KingRichard262]

@@Indigo_Gaming I can't help but agree with this take. I really appreciate what the book does with going into the complexities of motivations and how to deliver statements and the vocal sparring and all that good stuff, however, I find that it is very long winded and quite the effort to get through in terms of pacing. In that regard, I think the film did a fantastic job of condensing down the source material into a digestible film

[@horseradishpower9947]

To his credit, he has uploaded a video saying he was wrong, goes into it a but, and talks about the epiphanies he has had over his mistakes in that video. But he has said he royally messed up with that video.

[@SideBurns]

Dune’s Soundtrack did wailing women better than WW’s theme in Snyder Cut.

[@kurington.blogspot7876]

But not much. Worst Zimmer.

[@stevepickford3004]

No it didn't. The sound levels for that were ridiculous as you couldn't hear the dialogue just weird wailing

[@unevenstreets1182]

@@stevepickford3004 I could hear just fine in my theater.

[@stevepickford3004]

@@unevenstreets1182 possibly just my theatre I guess

[@unevenstreets1182]

@@stevepickford3004 Yeah cause I saw it twice once in the local and in IMAX and could hear just fine.

[@asandflavoredpoptart9151]

Despite its flaws, Dune is the first movie in awhile that made me legitimately excited for a new franchise. And even if it doesn’t get a sequel, I think it was entertaining enough as a stand-alone for me

[@amysteriousviewer3772]

Part 2 was greenlit a while ago now.

[@randomperson-up5vt]

It's a old franchise

[@HyoureiKyouran]

"new franchise" 1965

[@randomperson-up5vt]

@@NoahMoorman it's a old existing franchise that new people are allowed to make money on.

[@randomperson-up5vt]

@@NoahMoorman they are all part of the same franchise. You just paid money to sell crap food under that brand name. This movie is part of a existing franchise

[@TheGavrael]

When they are talking about Jessica and the pain box (49:30ish) you CAN tell what is happening just from the movie. Jessica is very upset before Paul even goes into the room. The fact that a woman shows up and can credibly threaten a Duke's son means she is a powerful person in the universe. Jessica knows there is a real chance Paul could die. This is all built up before he puts his hand in the box. Then he does and Jessica, hearing his pain, is freaking out as any mother would. She isn't helping him telepathically. You don't need to know anything about Dune, the books or games or supplementary material, to get all of that directly from the film. MauLer watched it 4 times; he should have picked up on that easily since Ferguson did a fantastic job acting in pretty much the entire film.

[@Pink.andahalf]

If you read the books before the film, you'll never know for sure if that's really obvious to those who didn't.

[@tiredidealist]

MauLer is stupid.

[@tiredidealist]

@Nicholas Cage Idc, he's stupid either way.

[@GreatDeadGod]

Plus if it's a test to differentiate the human from the animal, it would be safe to assume that Jessica also was tested before she became a sister. Thus she knows the pain and the danger of what's happening to Paul. You don't need the book to understand this.

[@berenvalari]

Her portrayal was one of the worst parts of the film in my opinion. She was way too emotionally out of control to be a bene geserit of Jessica's level.

[@Aquamentii]

I can’t defend the movie’s portrayal of shield-lasgun interactions but the book actually handles it quite well. There are two points of importance: 1) A lasgun striking a shield is NOT a guarantee of a nuclear-level explosion, although Herbert is pretty explicit that the feedback kills the gunner as well as the shielded. So, while you could use a lasgun to invalidate a shield, you would need someone who’s willing to kill themself for you to take the shot. 2) While every Great House of the Landsraad (and probably the empire too) has a supply of them, Atomics are illegal in the Dune-universe. Like, REALLY illegal. Like, “everyone stops what they’re doing and kills the shit out of you, and you’ll have no official recourse for using your atomics” kind of illegal. So the fact that lasgun assassinations might cause a nuclear explosion means it might get mistaken as one house dropping atomics on the other. In the case of Dune, everyone would turn on Harkonnen if Atreides was bombed. The chance of uniting the entire Landsraad+Empire against your house is too much to risk, even to kill a blood enemy. Assassination and its many forms is a subject greatly elaborated on in Dune. For example, there are different names for different types and even methods of poisoning, and an entire sub-category of humans (the Mentat) referred to as a race of Master Assassins who serve in positions of high importance in Dune’s hierarchies. The point of this gets back to Herbert’s rule about machines: “Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind.” Herbert wanted a Sci-Fi epic that revolves around the evolution of people, not the evolution of technology. The no-lasgunXshield rule is a reflection of the same principle: fighting a war in Dune is about the people you can persuade to fight for you, both their numbers and skills, not necessarily the arms technology you have access to.

[@MrCIA-me3ef]

From what I've heard about lasguns, point 1 explains a lot. Hope this is included in the next movie.

[@criticality2056]

The lasgun/shield thing was used by Paul in the books. He's asked what's with the atomic and explains they didn't break the rule, just a boobie trap with lashun and shield. No such great house beatdown occurred. No need to speculate, already clearly layed out.

[@fakecubed]

@@criticality2056 That was Duncan. He saw that the Harkonnen and Sardaukar were cutting up the desert (trying to kill Fremen/Atreides still alive and fighting after the initial attack) and planted some active shields out there to catch some enemy troops. And actually there was a major plot point with the Harkonnen agents on Arrakis ahead of the attack being found with a bunch of lasguns. This was a deliberate plant to scare the Atreides into being afraid to use shields when the invasion did occur later. Because a major component of the invasion plan was to drive Atreides into caves, and then deliberately collapse those caves using old timey artillery and kill a bunch of unshielded Atreides forces that way.

[@criticality2056]

@fakecubed was that Duncan? I'm thinking of the timed lasgun and shield trap. There was an interrogation if it was atomic, it had to be explained how they did it to not violate the atomics use against people rule

[@insertoyouroemail]

It's silly. Lasers ans shields can't cause a nuclear explosion unless that energy is available in the shield or laser. And it introduces dumb uncessecary writing problems.

[@Arko777777]

The biggest crime of this stream is the absence of Rags for the breakdown part, just because some guy was a tismy driver.

[@Saladrex999]

I dont know... Diabeto could be behind it... or maybe false flag? someone of the cast wanted to silence him...

[@2ndRodeo_Keziah]

Totally. Missed his passion . 😭 Hope another chance on the subject pops up sometime for a Fringy/Rags verbal brawl. 🤗

[@sparkypack]

Let Rags's utility pole alone. 🐕

[@Red-zh7vq]

I for one am glad there’s less Rags. No Rags would be even better.

[@sparkypack]

@@Red-zh7vq No free Rags plushie for you. 🐕

[@austinwoods466]

The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any. Poor Rags.

[@GodotIsWaiting4U]

The Hunter-Seeker is missing important exposition from the book: it IS piloted, but the suspensor field holding it aloft causes significant interference to the visual systems, and so pilots usually have to rely on movement to figure out what is and what isn’t a target. Since they’re usually so quiet and sneaky this usually isn’t a problem for hunter-seekers, because their targets have no idea they’re there and continue to move normally. In the book it makes sense but the movie dropped the ball. That’s an unfortunate problem with this movie, lots of missing pieces of exposition. Another bit the movie definitely should have explained and forgot to explain: kanly. The Imperium has formal legalized blood feuds between the houses, called “kanly”, which is why the attempt on Paul’s life is legal - the Harkonnens and Atreides can fight to death forever as long as it’s just them, keeping other houses out of it. This is also why the Sardaukar involvement has to be a secret: the Emperor is not supposed to take sides in this. In the book the Sardaukar are actually dressed as Harkonnens during the attack to disguise their involvement. Also, the Baron has no telekinesis, it’s the implants in his back making him float. Regarding the shields: in the book, the slow darts are not a thing, and neither are the slow bombs. The slow darts are definitely a problem. The book’s version of Leto doesn’t turn his shield on in time - he does get darted but it’s not a slow-dart, it just flies at normal speed and his shield is off. The laser-shield nuke interaction IS a thing in the book, and Duncan uses it to set a booby trap at one point. A number of Villeneuve’s changes - such as these - create problems, Herbert’s worldbuilding was pretty careful and while Villeneuve is clearly trying he isn’t careful enough. EDIT: Fuck me I’m wrong, the slow darts ARE in the book, they’re called stunners. They’re not featured as prominently though, which is why I forgot about it. The thing about the deaf guard is he’s actually supposed to be the safeguard against the Voice - so if Jessica somehow gets her gag off and tries to Voice them all, he can slap some sense into them. But then Paul manages to use the fact that he’s looking away to turn that into a weakness. The book also doesn’t have the thopter get crippled or shut off remotely: Paul and Jessica land to see what Yueh left them, and then another Harkonnen thopter comes in minutes later, so they have to flee before they’re spotted and find somewhere to dig in with their tent to hide. Yet another change Villeneuve kind of bungled - I think he wanted to get that moment where Paul and Jessica get to look back and see Arrakeen burning, so he couldn’t have them followed or he can’t have that scene. Clumsy. I love this movie but man it’s missing so many pieces it needed to be truly great, maybe it should have been a trilogy instead of a two-parter to have room for everything. The most disappointing thing is that it’s JUST good enough that these movies will probably be treated as the definitive adaptation, we’re probably not going to get another attempt after this to get it all right (especially since Villeneuve got the look and feel of everything pretty much dead on), much like how nobody’s going to try to do Lord of the Rings again after Peter Jackson’s trilogy - but Jackson did a much better job with LotR than Villeneuve did with Dune.

[@callumunga5253]

Personally, I love the book but hate this movie. Sure, it's neat to see the book visually adapted, but the sacrifice so much of what makes the book good to compress it to a reasonable length. If the movie had climaxed with the battle of Arrakeen, with the last hour re-allocated to filling in vital exposition and character scenes, I think the movie would be drastically improved. With the changes Villeneuve made, it would have several glaring problems, but at least the side characters would be 'real'. To highlight: based solely on the events of the movie, tell me three things about the character of any of Doctor Yueh, Thufir Hawat, Gurney Halleck or Pyter de Vries. If they re-allocated the last hour to filling in the characters, the death's of Pyter or Yueh might have been impactful.

[@lampad4549]

Wow never thought people would criticize a movie for not having enough exposition. Have you read the lord of the ring books? Because cut out a lot of exposition that would have solved a lot of issues namely the eagles. Also tom bombaldil and all the stuff in the third book.

[@TheGavrael]

Regarding the Hunter, EFAP criticizes that it was a clumsy attempt at assassination. "There could have been better ways". Yeah, that's the point. Unfortunately it wasn't in the film, but Beast (Bautista) set that up and he isn't very smart. Baron is pissed. So yeah, it all makes sense, but since it is not in the film, it is hard to determine.

[@callumunga5253]

@@lampad4549 A key difference is that LOTR (the movie) works basically perfectly despite their excision. The other characters aren't lacking significant motivation or characterisation, for instance. Or maybe they are, I haven't read the books. I'll grant the eagles are an example of a scene removal added a plothole which was explained in the book. -- For dune, Villeneuve has removed scenes which are mostly ancillary, but their careless removal has stripped almost every secondary character of any motivation. Some scenes in the book can be removed without significant damage. The banquet with the water-merchants has been removed, without significant consequences, for example.

[@slaapt]

Yueh doesn't need more character for the movie to work though. We see he is trusted (left alone with the ducal family, no inspection of his medical equipme t), and we see him betraying the Duke to "save" his wife. He kickstarts the following scenes in a way that feels natural, even if the book had way more character moments for him.

[@scottk1525]

Feels like every time they analyze a bad video, MauLer and Fringy carry the team, explaining in detail what's wrong with the video. Metal just re-iterates everything MauLer says. And half of Rags comments are just "that was stupid and dumb," "you're an idiot," etc.

[@alolanrichu1167]

It depends on the content. Sometimes, yeah I agree, however there have been times, like the previous episode on halo, that rags and metal have a lot of valid points

[@insertoyouroemail]

Rags has plenty of insightful input, metal has his moments but I don't think he contributed much beyond memey jokes and noises in this episode

[@The_Sleepiest_Socialist]

While I do agree that MauLer and Fringy are superior critics to Metal and Rags, the difference isn’t nearly as big as you seem to think. Rags and Metal have brought up many a good point. There is also value in humour, something they both excel at. MauLer is still somehow better than them at that too, but the Longman is overpowered and haveth no rival.

[@BertzTriscut]

To all the people saying "explosions don't work," they clearly do. There's at least one instance of an explosion going off and knocking down several soldiers, soldiers who's shields go blue which indicates that the shield worked. These soldiers don't get back up. Not only that, but we see soldiers hit by swords with the blue shields react as if they were a normal person getting whacked by a stick. They feel pain, they feel the impact. Physics doesn't stop being a thing just because you have protection.

[@viysnjor4811]

@nicholascage3400 Do the book shields stop overpressure from explosions? aka air pressure?

[@viysnjor4811]

@nicholascage3400 What about a flamethrower? Does a shield block straight up radiation (heat in this case)? What about chemical weapons?

[@dan_hahn]

to be fair... it's completely the movie's fault that EFAP did not know about the outlawed computers until this chat session... that's kind of a big deal in that universe and the showrunner needed to include that in their script.

[@lampad4549]

Not really cause it isn't relevant to understanding the plot of the story in the movie.

[@dan_hahn]

I mean... it's relevant to why the spice is critical to society which... idk... is potentially one of the more relevant pieces of world building

[@jole5468]

the movie doesnt even make sure that people know that spice isnt actually fuel, but that it enables space travel because its neccessary for the navigators to navigate deep space. but the thing where they went wild about fucking ai is dumb, the source material was made in the 50s or 60s, of course the non-computer tech is analog. but yeah they should have something to show that computers are illegal

[@teddyharvester]

@@jole5468 it's not even that computers are illegal, but computers that resemble the human mind are, that would otherwise handle a lot of complex calculation, thus the development of modified humans for all sorts of purposes.

[@biker2416]

If they’d mentioned the machine crusades that probably would have solved the computer question immediately

[@pat_back]

My main issue with their Dune criticism is that they're taking lack of information as negative information. When Mauler keeps bringing up "you guys didn't complain about it when we did it to star wars" it feels like he's missing the point. In the Star Wars sequels, most of the information being presented is directly contradictory to previous established things. In Dune, it's not so much contradicting things, there are just gaps. And every time they stumble into a gap they're treating it like as negatively as a contradiction. I can agree maybe these gaps should be filled, but you can't really call it the same level of objective flaw as contradicting previous information.

[@charlesowen5408]

It's a negative when it affects the stakes of the story- the lack of understanding in regards to weapons used against the shields (such as explosives or dart guns) affects the stakes because characters could die without the audience understanding fully how or why. As they stated at a number of points, it doesn't break the movie, but it could have been better if they managed to adjust the story accordingly.

[@RyoLeo]

A gap in information can still be a negative. And like what charles say some of these gaps can ruin the stakes when we start thinking about it. For instance, if you can make low speed, shield penetrating projectiles that are still lethal why aren’t they mass producing/using that? And if I got nothing to drawl from within the movie, I would have to answer the question on my own. And I can give the movie whatever conclusion I want. All depending on what mood I’m in. Ultimately this is not good storytelling isn’t it? Where the quality of the story depends on how the audience feel that day. If you want to tell a sci fi story that anyone can follow you have to find these things that are seemingly illogical. And add provide something that seem logical to us. And no it doesn’t have to follow our world logic as long it make sense in the story universe Now doing that while maintaining the flow of the story that is being told is tricky but that what separate the master storyteller from the novices right? Also lets not act like every negative criticism was concluded as equal. If anything this was, as mauler said in the beginning, them talking about the movie and what they thought of it. Bringing up anything they thought might be an issue and then talking about them as a group. Some of it being strong others weak but we can only conclude that after a conversation about it. General consensus like the how big of a problem the Star Wars hyperdrive kamikaze would never had be figured out without people talking about it with each other. Or how good other movies actually were for that matter. And in the end, the guys concluded with mix feelings and comments about how they ultimately feel about the movie will heavily depend on the next movie.

[@charlesowen5408]

@@RyoLeo And to add to ryo's point, different conclusions can be found without either side being necessarily wrong. In my discussions of the movie with friends, we found the movie to function as both the first act of a larger story while also being a contained narrative about how the house of Atreides, ultimately through Paul, manages to harness "desert power" in building an alliance with the Fremen. There are bumps in the sandy path there, but given what else the film had to offer, we agreed it paled in comparison. Our conclusion doesn't counter EFAP's, as you can agree with our conclusion based on the evidence at hand, while still having mixed feelings in regard to all that has been yet to be paid off.

[@elcidS15]

I felt like Paul’s fight in the beginning gave enough information about shields to draw conclusions from. -He was hit center mass and was sent back from it. Meaning momentum and force isn’t blocked by shields, so explosions obviously still kill. -Slow objects can penetrate, so low velocity darts should work. -gotta breathe so air isn’t stopped. These things all made sense to me when I watched it.

[@kyletimmons2940]

@@elcidS15 "These things all made sense to me when I watched it." But there's the rub; if it logically follows that shields can't defend against these weapons based off of what we are shown, then why is everyone using only swords? Explosives are only used by ships to destroy large stationary targets like buildings and spacecraft, while only assassins and the Sardaukar use dart guns. If they're effective, why isn't EVERY soldier of house Atreides and house Harkonnen equipped with these weapons in addition to swords?

[@jordanmyers9913]

From my understanding the Atreides had cultivated enough power to overthrow the Emperor if they wished so and not a whole lot of the houses like them as most of the Imperium is corrupt and view them as a noble threat. To weaken the house, the Emperor assigned them to cultivate Dune which eliminated their previous resources (air-power and sea-power) as they now had to take care of a very hostile planet with crap left behind. I do critique the movie for not including it, but if I remember correctly the book details how the Harkonens and Atreides are at formal war with each other with the Emperor secretly picking a side. The Atreides were forced to take Dune as the other option of not listening to the Emperor would be all out galactic warfare so they decided to take the risk and cultivate as much "desert-power" as possible to protect themselves. As for how other off-screen houses would react, they don't like the Atreides and as the line "the spice must flow" hints at, no one cares how much it costs as it is not only valuable but NECESSARY. Annoying sure if production is low or prices high, but I think that's why the Harkonens swoop in real quick to eliminate their enemies and get stuff back up to normal. I kind of think of the story of Dune as a king secretly eliminating a rival noble by sending his [this rival noble] to the New World in America, losing the province or whatever was previously ruled to take charge of the limited settlements and troops there. Then, secretly a more powerful military force can swoop in and destroy them with the whole thing waved off as an unfortunate accident to the natives. But the prince survives and leads the Natives to take back the colony. I hope that made sense, just how my mind likes to look at it all and think about it, I initially was a tad confused as well at first and am kind of okay with it now. As for the hunterfly, not the best scene but I easily assumed it detected motion through light sensors and the "VR" set the wall guy had was actually what provided life support while he hid away to deploy the hunterfly thing. Also kind of surprised you thought that it wasn't going to be about spice production as the fall of house Atreides on Dune and the rise of Paul with the Fremen is like... Dune in a sentence. You might not know much about the source material but I feel you'd at least get like a "so what's this movie about?" I don't know, just found that comment and view kind of really weird, like someone new to Lord of the Rings saying "well I didn't expect the movies to be about the ring traveling east to Mt. Doom"; never met someone who's gone to a movie COMPLETELY blind. Sorry if these get answered later in the episode but I watch these in chunks during the week, full-time college student at the moment. I'll end with my spicy take of loving the movie and really looking down on "marvel-bros" who complained the movie was boring because it didn't have any jokes. I was hooked and could have sat through Part Two then and there, shocked when it ended at two and half hours I was so engaged. I do get it's a little slow at times and may not be for some people, but movies don't need incessant action and quips to be good (my friends thought Eternals and Shang-Chi were eights and nines so I'm not in a keen mood to hear Dune was boring). Good day/evening to anyone who completed reading this, don't watch these live so frustrates me not to be able to throw my two cents or other things I noticed.

[@Pink.andahalf]

TL DR: "They should have read the book first like I did."

[@SacredMagic13679]

A 'spicy' take indeed! 😉

[@kennandunn7533]

Being someone who has never read the book, and hasn't seen the movie yet, I was amazed by just how much of Maulers description I actually understood with my only source being a Dune porn parody I found on Newgrounds half a decade ago.

[@matthewpeterson2317]

This is truly a triumph of storytelling

[@mk-tu3gv]

Are porn parodies true cinema?

[@traluelal]

Well behind the dune is the best adaptation so far.

[@BrotherCaptain36]

S-source?

[@FlumboFrommelkont]

@@BrotherCaptain36 Only one I know of is called behind the dune, which by my memory is still getting updated to this day.

[@jeramyleavitt3169]

The director needed to address Paul's mentat abilities, what a mentat actually is, why the harkonn ens were dangerous, the fact that the blood feud between them was open and expected to end in the destruction of one of the houses, the fact that they talked about just leaving with their nuclear weapons and running. Yes it would have led to a little more exposition but would have helped the normies know. Paul sitting in at a meeting asking these questions and his father or Duncan or gurney answering would have solved several issues these guys had with the stories. The mentat abilities would have explained how Paul kept surviving and out smarted most of his opponents in addition to his limited presence.

[@samwallaceart288]

When I saw that meeting scene, I actually got excited because that's where the meat of the 1st act sits, in Paul learning the behind the scenes of his dad stuck in a shitty political situation; but NOPE. They show the room for 30 seconds, and then never revisit that plot line. And surprise surprise, the invasion scene comes out of nowhere and is unearned, because they skipped its setup.

[@ceilingfanenthusiast6041]

@@cadmus204 been a while since I read the book. What was the note? It was in that water garden right and it was either a note about a gift or an attenpted assasination right?

[@ceilingfanenthusiast6041]

@@cadmus204 was that the assassination with the weird robotic worm thing that tries to kill Paul? Or was it about the Harkonnen invasion?

[@adamjd7645]

@@cadmus204 Much of the intro in the dining room scene was pushed to elsewhere in the story in one-liners here & there. I thought that was a better way of doing it that trying to recreate the scene from the book.

[@adamjd7645]

@@cadmus204 Normally I'd agree, but the movie already suffered from a lot of clunky exposition. I'd be concerned the banquet scene would have been an endless exposition scene that would have ended up counter-productive.

[@Aquamentii]

To address the confusion at about 1:15:00 about why the emperor has constructed this plot, here’s how I see it: 1. Leto is very popular among the great houses 2. Everyone suspects he may use this popularity to lead a revolt against the emperor, including the emperor himself 3. If the emperor flat-out attacks Leto, then Leto’s supporters may join him in a war against the emperor 4. Moving Leto to Dune takes him away from the familiarity of his homeworld, to a place where Leto will have a much harder time defending himself 5. This move, as well as taking up the sabotaged spice-mining business on Dune, will also stress out and exhaust Leto and his staff, making them easier to attack 6. I also suspect Dune is a much more remote planet where this sacking is more likely to take place quietly, but I don’t have hard evidence for this 7. By having Harkonnen sack Atreides, the death of Leto seems to be a feud between the great houses and not an assault by the emperor, avoiding the problem of point 3. This is a political problem and the solution is crafted to satisfy different political requirements, so the details of this scheme are centered around making it LOOK a certain way to the rest of the galaxy.

[@Ka1ven]

You pretty much got it in one,or seven, my friend.

[@uummmnocoolnames]

To add a few more points: - I don't think Leto understands how much the Emperor fears his popularity. He thought being sent to Dune was to spark another conflict with the Harkonnen, one like they've been having for generations, and one that would weaken both houses. He never imagined the Emperor would just kill off an entire great house. - It's not until Liet shrugs her shoulders and says "tough luck" in the face of Harkonnen sabotage that Leto begins to understand the fix is in, and the movie makes it seem like the attack happens the very same night. - Harkonnen sabotage gives them an excuse to attack - "The Artreides are grossly incompetent and effecting the flow of Spice, so we HAVE to remove them" - Even if the other houses suspect the Emperor conspired with the Harkonnen to take down the Artreides, there's enough plausible deniability to dissuade any half-hearted Artreides supporters from starting something, especially with the main pillar of their faction dead and buried. Every house you can discourage away from taking action has a snowball effect of keeping the Artreides loyalists from joining hands as the odds look less and less in their favor.

[@stevepickford3004]

@@uummmnocoolnames did you watch the movie? Leto talks about the things you are saying he doesn't know in the movie.

[@666FallenShadow]

i got super annoyed at that part, there were several people in chat who explained things the way you did and the only ones they read out was "it's a test" and ones that didn't explain things very well

[@uummmnocoolnames]

​@@stevepickford3004 First, let's outline what Leto knows, what it'd be reasonable for him to know as a head of a great family, and what he says, from lines in the movie: *1. The Harkonnen are more wealthy than the Emperer. That is set up by the opening monologue* 2. The Artreides are more popular than the Emperor. This is explicitly stated by the Baron in his first scene, and although I don't think anyone from the Artreides side outright states that, there's no reason to assume that they aren't politically savvy enough to know. 3. IIRC, after the betrayal, Duncan (although it might've been Paul) says something to the effect of "I'm sure the other houses will be interested that the Emperor's own elite troops are killing off great houses", suggesting that the Emperor's involvement in the destruction of a great house would be grounds for overthrowing the throne. *4. Admittedly they should've added a line to explain, but the lingering shots on the bull fighting statue and bull's head are significant because the symbol of House Harkonnen. The feud between the two houses is so deep, the Artreides decorate their house with reminders of it. Those shots might be to confusing for somebody who doesn't know the source material, which is the fault of the filmmakers, but they stick out like a sore thumb once you understand the signfigance of the bull symbology. There is also a line from the baron once he's captured Leto that he's ending a long fight between their houses* 5. Before they leave for Dune, Leto tells Paul something along the lines of "This will spark a war" or "The emperor is starting a war". Given all this, it's quite reasonable to assume that Leto thinks being given Dune is a play by the Emperor to weaken both houses by starting a war, and not an outright massacre. You can also extrapolate that the Emperor siding with the Harkonnen is an unusually bold and risky plan given the massive potential blowback if the plan fails and the Artreides survive to take revenge. The plan is so unusual that Leto fails to account for that possibility, until he understands that the Judge of the Change is just a powerless figurehead meant to placate the Artreides long enough for the plot to be executed. The clever part, or almost clever part, from the Emperor's standpoint, is that his actual plan should also manage to weaken the Harkonnen, as they are both bankrolling the whole invasion, and taking all the political fallout. I say almost clever, because it just so happens that the Baron has secret stockpiles of spice built up to recoup his loses, and I don't think he gives a fuck about being hated, as long as he's feared as well. *So I just noticed my 1st and 4th points didn't get posted originally - edited to re-add them in*

[@NoPantsBaby]

And this is why "It didn't follow the book" is such an often used criticism. Almost every complaint except Mauler's weird objection that shields when hit with energy weapons cause nuclear explosions is impossible (it's part of the author's sci fi world get over it) is explained by "In the book it's explained." Dune is really hard to adapt because it goes very slow and very deliberately explains specific things about the characters. I am quite convinced that 60% of the book is internal monologue about motivation and ideas and convictions of characters and those connected to them. It needs to be adapted into a series where we can actually spend an entire episode discussing galactic politics and why the Emperor is resorting to this insane round about plan to kill the Artredes and why the Artredes hate the Harkonnen so much and why the Judge of the Change is so easily bought.

[@dragonknightleader1]

The Sci-Fi network is the closest we got to a series and it's on a Syfy budget.

[@jeggsonvohees2201]

It's a terrible criticism though when your examining the quality of the movie. The Shining is one of the best examples of a poor adaptation that is extremely good. You can't say it a bad movie just be able it doesn't follow the book. People mostly say that without thinking.

[@Reshyon]

You say weird when having the capacity to create a nuclear apocalypse is produced by those shields. I cannot understand how the criticism is complicated.

[@led-0185]

Yeah, Dune has enough material for a whole season of a TV show, GOT-style. Things like the Landsraad, the CHOAM Corporation, and the details of how the Spacing Guild works and affects everybody weren't even glossed over, all of which is important information for understanding the world.

[@essexclass8168]

@@Reshyon I mean, we've had the ability to miniaturize actual nukes for about 30-50 years now, only reason we've stopped is detente and the fact that nukes tend to negate wars. iirc it had something to do with lasers and shields causing atoms to destabilize, why it isn't common has more to do with the fact that said explosion kills both the shooter and receiver and that it could do as much dmg as that to planetary annihilation depending on atomic shit. Oh, also it's as looked down upon as using nukes irl, if not moreso and will lead to the house dumb enough to use it getting vilified and warred on by every other faction.

[@MrAhriman42]

I'm at the point where they find out there's no computers. Biggest failing of the Film's exposition/world building. Fringy is right, everything is advanced-but-analog. The projector uses holo-film. A windows 10 laptop in the future would be banned, but also far inferior in processing power to a human Mentat. Polkadot-man and fat Atraedes guy are rain-man without the autism. They do the adding-up.

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

Wait, the movie fails to explain the ban on thinking machines and that mentats exist?

[@MrAhriman42]

@@ineednochannelyoutube5384 Mentats existing are implied by all the eye-rolling that Chungus and Polkadot Man do, but nothing beyond that.

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

@@MrAhriman42 That, uh, kind of fundamental to the setting.

[@Indigo_Gaming]

That's why the spice is so important. The Spacing Guild navigators use its power to enhance their senses to a point that they can accurately predict a safe path through the universe for FTL travel. Weird but makes sense in its own way.

[@MediumRareOpinions]

@@Indigo_Gaming Not only that but the Galactic noble classes use low doses of the spice to extend their lifespans. Without it they'll end up like Bilbo after he passes the one ring onto Frodo.

[@mymindraces6801]

In screenwriting, the inciting incident is simply the thing that propels the story into motion. In general, this happens within the first 5-10 minutes of the movie. It's not always in your face like an action scene. A few examples: The Nice Guys -- the death of Misty Mountains Mission Impossible -- the death of Ethan's team/losing NOC list Top Gun -- Cougar losing nerve due to MIG/Mavrick's attitude Back to the Future -- Doc asking Marty to meet him/stealing plutonium (skateboard hits it) Inglourious Basterds -- Shosanna's family being murdered Liar Liar -- Reed's lies which is the impetus for Max's wish Star Wars -- Droids escape to Tatooine with Leia's message Inception -- Cobb's failure to extract info from Saito Curse of the Black Pearl -- Elizabeth takes Will's medallion Crank -- Chev Chelios wakes up poisoned All of those happen within that 5-10 minute window. You can do this with most Hollywood movies, by the way -- even though it's just a general rule. Like you guys said, it all depends on the story that's being told. Lord of the Rings, for instance, is a three hour movie. Having the inciting incident happen around the 30 minute mark is fine if you can hold the audiences interest up to that point. In short, I have no idea where The Closer Look got 12 percent from or what he's going on about. The inciting incident in Dune is when the Emperor removes the Harkonnen from Arrakis and places Atreides in charge. That's what propels the story into motion. He has no idea what he's talking about. Just another Filmento.

[@samwallaceart288]

Great points all around

[@albedo5455]

I'm pretty sure the inciting incident has to be an event that breaks the protagonist's status quo, doesn't have to be an action scene. The inciting incident has to directly affect the protagonist's desire in the story. For Luke, his inciting incident is finding out Princess Leia's message. For Bilbo in the Hobbit, it's Gandalf asking Bilbo if he wants an adventure. Aang's inciting incident is receiving visions of the comet. Harry Potter's incident is getting the revelation that he is a wizard. The inciting incident happens at the beginning of the story since it affects the protagonist's desire for the entire story. Personally, the inciting incident can happen any time in the first act, don't know where Closer Look got the 12% from.

[@lucasstrunc7669]

I wonder if Closer Look knows that non-action films exist

[@Neo2266.]

@@albedo5455 What if protag’s status quo isn’t broken? John Wick 3 for instance

[@mymindraces6801]

@Albedo I understand what you’re saying, but that’s not correct. The inciting incident is the point in which all conflict is derived. Look at The Fugitive. The inciting incident is when Kimble’s wife is murdered, which sets up the conflict for the movie. Every decision Kimble makes after he escapes comes from that scene. Why was his wife killed? Who is the one-armed man? How does he track him down? Those are the first threads Kimble pulls on that leads to other reveals. Or how about Finding Nemo? The inciting incident is when Marlin’s wife, Coral, and most of their eggs are killed in a barracuda attack. That tragedy causes Marlin to be overly protective of Nemo, which causes Nemo to rebel and be caught by a scuba diver. Now an overly cautious Marlin must face his worst fears in order to get his son back. The whole story turns on and is shaped by the inciting incident. Same thing goes for Star Wars: A New Hope. All conflict in the movie centers around the droids. Had the droids never escaped the story doesn’t happen. Luke Skywalker would still be on Tatooine. The stakes are set from the get-go that trouble will follow the droids because they have vital intel. They are what propel the narrative forward.

[@edgythehedgy6661]

It’s a super difficult story to tell in a film format, especially because it is on a grand scale (hence expensive). They also didn’t know how many movies they were going to get greenlit, so they couldn’t go in like LOTR or Harry Potter and know you’re gonna get a certain number of movies to explain and explore everything. I do think their decisions on what to and what not to exposit could have been much better (although I still greatly enjoyed the movie). It would serve best if it were able to get a “prequel” movie first to give the background and set the stage, shoot Dune pt 1 and pt2 back to back like lotr, then if they felt like tackling any of the sequel book/stories, adding onto the trilogy from there. (It is helpful to know about their terminator-esque war on machine and subsequent outlawing of AI to understand the savant calculation people, for whom the spice allows even more advanced mental capabilities thus the interstellar mapping and travel, and I think it helps to know why they don’t have guns and everything is hand to hand combat, amongst a few other pieces of lore to better enjoy the film for what it is… the first half/act of the dune story)

[@samwallaceart288]

The sandstorm scene is the most irritating adaptation decision. My favorite scene in the book is when they've just lost everything, Jessica is having a panic attack, but Paul hardens and remains calm, and just starts repeating the Litany Against Fear that his mom had taught him his whole life, and she begins to calm and recites it with him, as they both resolutely press on into the unknown. Fear is the mind-killer. Huge moment for me, pretty much my image of stoicism. But nope, that's boring. Let's have another generic desert-people vision with a complete rando spouting platitudes. Again. ♫ hAAAAaaahhhhhhh...! ♫

[@eras1066]

Paul's metamorphosis where he becomes an entirely different person over the span of a few seconds because of all the information that's going to his brain all at once was my favorite part of the first book and I hated that it wasn't given as much weight in the movie.

[@uummmnocoolnames]

@@eras1066 I feel like they changed that moment to his fight with Jamis, when he realizes he has to kill him, and by doing so, he is knowingly and resolutely setting off down a very bloody path. I think he starts to realize that while his visions aren't necessarily literal visions of the future, they will come to pass regardless - although, that point is so subtly done, with the earlier vision of Jamis telling him he will teach Paul the Fremen ways, that without knowing the story from the books, I'm not sure how well it plays. Also, there's no indication that Paul is a mentat at all in this version -he never does the eyes-rolling-into-the-back-of-his-head thing like the other two mentats shown - though no one who hasn't read the books would even know what that signified.

[@TheVagabond627]

It’s that “generic” desert-people vision that convinces Paul to let go

[@lampad4549]

@@TheVagabond627 how is that generic?

[@lampad4549]

How was what the book did any less generic?

[@rockybalboa6433]

Love EFAP, love Mauler, love everybody here. Seems like a lot of bad takes in this stream arise from them wanting to tear down this film as much as possible. If we are going to be objective, let’s be fucking objective. Looking for faults and plot holes where there are none doesn’t seem to be very constructive. One example of misinterpretation is the deaf guard. He was put there so they would have someone immune to the Voice in case Jessica got loose. It’s not a plot hole that he is deaf, it’s a detail showing the thought their enemy put into this invasion. The film isn’t perfect and I agree it relies too heavily on having read the book to get the full experience. That being said, a lot of arguments made by efap seem to be made in bad-faith, assuming the absolute worst whenever a question comes up. I expect better from these guys and I hope they look into things with a more even hand in the future.

[@lessalazar9068]

I agree. And it's a little confusing whenever MauLer says he really liked it but continues the bad faith arguments? Maybe.. maybe Rags would have actually been nice to have on the stream for the beginning.

[@actonvogt5216]

@@lessalazar9068 I think rags had his own share of abysmal takes.

[@25meip]

For as wide an influence it has, Dune is pretty contrary by nature. I'm not surprised people were confused by it if they really had no context. Especially compared to modern sci Fi. If people ever ask me about Dune, I always tell them it's a sci Fi, with no robots or aliens. It's first and foremost about people.

[@jonasl9068]

What do you mean bad-faith? Are there good-faith criticism of works? Do those even count as critisms? I believe his arguments male sense. Please explain how they defy your arbitrary logic for “good” or “bad”

[@jonasl9068]

And trust me there are flaws, you just dont see them apparently. Also yes the flaws do contradict the continuity, WITHIN THE MOVIE IT DOESNT NEED A FRANCHISE TO CONTRADICT ITSELF

[@5ilver42]

The movie is very flawed as an adaptation, and I believe almost every criticism the hosts have had is addressed in the book in a way I think they would appreciate and accept, _BUT_ as the hosts have also said, that doesn't really help _THE MOVIE._ What I believe the movie does really well is show the aesthetic, and the ceremony, and the gravity of the situation. But it skips all of my favorite parts from this portion of the story, it changes several of my favorite characters into being different people, and it also skips all of the explanations that make the course of events actually make sense. I knew what they were, and I understood it because I've read the book but--just like the 3 hosts--anyone who hadn't read it has no explanation or ground rules laid to make reasonable inferences. Therefore, they are just left with questions that lead them to see these holes as issues. And for _THE MOVIE_ they are issues for that reason. My major criticism though is where they chose to end the film. I think they should have ended the film where part 1 of the book ended, with Paul grieving in the tent for his father. This ending would have solidified the themes of legacy that it was communicating very well. And it would have allowed for 30 minutes of character exploration and development that was cut out of this adaptation to be included and have a similar run time. The biggest flaw though I think was excluding the espionage "age of assassins" plot around Thufir and the traitor Yui. This plot thread also really builds up the danger that the Baron Harkonen really poses to the Atreides family.

[@samwallaceart288]

Exactly

[@No_nameOG]

I dunno, I just finished the book before watching the film, and I could only count 5 major changes from the novel, or the part that is in the film at least. The only part that really jarred me was what they did to Liet Keynes, who is a man with dusky skin in the book, but a black woman in the film

[@unpopularopinions7407]

@@No_nameOG would “dusky skin” not suggest the character was black to begin with?

[@randomperson-up5vt]

@@unpopularopinions7407 no it does not

[@Old_School_293]

The theme of the first film is destiny (why does autocorrect want to capitalize “destiny”?). Paul’s destinies are to become Duke and to become the Messiah to the Fremen. These two destinies are at odds in Paul. He wants the former and wants to avoid the latter. But the latter cannot be avoided. Here’s the thing, because Paul is growing in prescience, he knows this is true. But he simply cannot accept that he would lead a bloody jihad. The killing of Jamis helps Paul accept his destiny (it capitalized it again!)

[@TheShadowOfHumanity]

Weird how they they really hated the shields (except Rags who they couldnt get to agree with them on shields being dumb)considering all the hilarious tech in spiderman films and even in Infinity War that they give a free pass to. Next spooderman discussion I better not hear how Mysterios tism drones totes make sense despite being absolutely ridiculous.

[@Hashbrown1682]

You know they will

[@lessalazar9068]

Yes how bizarre was it for me to be agreeing with Rags so much

[@desperadova4124]

That's a bit dishonest. They werem't doubting the techs believibility, but rather, it's practicality.

[@MustachioT]

@@desperadova4124 more specifically they were criticizing why everyone isn't using the darts that are effective against the shields. Which then leads to some logical conclusions of " if the darts can make it through what else can"

[@desperadova4124]

@@MustachioT Indeed.

[@JewishFrog]

There you are, watching the new EFAP episode, and all of the sudden, you're a massive. You didn't ask for this. You didn't choose this. Yet, there it is. AND THAT'S A GOOD THING

[@matthewcollins4773]

It seems, then, that the biggest flaw of the film, potentially, is that it might assume an awareness of the source material that isn't quite warranted? Though I'm surprised to hear that one point of exposition that didn't make it in was the "no thinking machines", since that's a key idea that sets this universe apart.

[@fakecubed]

The film has a high regard for its audience's intelligence. A lot is left to visuals and subtext, and logical progression from the information presented. It may have erred a little on the side of thinking its audience was smart enough to get it. But I've sat with people who went into this film with no knowledge of the Dune books or past adaptations, and they understand basically all of it no problem, so obviously some of the audience is smart enough. I for one am glad they didn't spell everything out so explicitly. I'm so tired of movies treating me like an idiot.

[@JOBXR]

Fringy why are you so comfortable in other EFAP’s to speak on American politics when you’re completely unable to speak about Australian politics ive seen this multiple times

[@DanielChico09]

It's taking me a long time to go through this. So many bad arguments. Mauler and Fringy decided that every logical inference is book spoiler that must be ignored and only accept explicit stated information in the movie. This is particularly infuriating for politics because it's a game of lies that is very difficult to have a clear picture. For the technology the complains have a point but are out of place. Dune is science fantasy not science fiction, things works the way they do because those are the rules established for this universe magic system. But than previous EFAPs argued against the concept of science fantasy when talking about Star Wars, so now they have to pretend this subgenre doesn't exist and that Star War tech make sense. Than Rags come back and talk a while about the shields. Logically infere that the shields are effective against modern weapons because everyone act as if it is? I was almost losing hope I would hear any good arguments. Good job there. Please try not to become like Nostalgic Critic style critics that just try to find things to complain about regardless of the complains having any merit.

[@way-out]

This EFAP was pure guess work, kinda frustrating. They dont question SW or MCU tech, backstory, world building because they re familiar with those universes, Dune on the other hand... does anyone on the panel knows anything about its lore, let alone read the f book? That considered a bad argument, who the hell likes reading stuff i guess? Altough movie is clearly meant for those who did read it and i believe if the movie is adaptation there is a merit in knowing the source material , so it would make for much more engaging discussion!

[@richardblum3516]

Criticizing Dune for the Ornithopter's real world practicality is about as interesting and useful as criticizing Howle's Moving Castle because you find the designs of the military flying machines to be unrealistic. The ornithopters looked cool and flew in a believable way. I couldn't care less if they could actually work in real life.

[@Pink.andahalf]

They're trying to design visual versions of a machine that was never fully described in a 60 year old book, the visual effects guys mainly want them to look cool.

[@DanielChico09]

I was following the complains about the assassination attempt being too overt until Mauler suggest the emperor could just invite them to dinner and kill them. I wasn't prepared for this level of stupidity. The deceptions and political maneuvers around an assassination of important people aren't done exclusively to increase the chance of success of the act itself. Maybe the conflict could be better, but having a noble family being assassinated during their administrative duty of a harsh and rebellious planet that previously enriched a rival family give the emperor so much deniability and possible escape goats. Even if the targets know they've being denied official support at a critical moment, once they died who would be able to point fingers at the emperor?

[@ATEN_DNAR]

Right. It's all made much clearer in the book. Hopefully part 2 goes back and explains the politics behind the attack a bit more.

[@KaNoMikoProductions]

>I was following the complains about the assassination attempt being too overt until Mauler suggest the emperor could just invite them to dinner and kill them. I wasn't prepared for this level of stupidity. Funnily enough, I'm actually listening to The Count of Monte Cristo at the moment, and an account is given of a (fictional) event wherein Cesare Borgia and Pope Alexander VI invite a couple of cardinals to dinner in order to poison them and inherit their fortunes.

[@tylerghersinich576]

The way I see it is the God Emperor and is House fears the Atreides especially the head of the House because he is called the Great. Having a vassal called the Great is not a good sign plus a lot of other House are looking to the Atreides House for help. If enough House Agree they could rebel against the Emperor and remove him and his House and install the Duke and his House. This is a worth wild task because imagine having a hook on the new emperor. See my new emperor my House had made sacrifices to install you it would be nice to have some of the territories that belong to our previous enemies. What the emperor did is a very reasonable and a very effective away to remove a political rival and have the backing of the empire as well. Have the previous House destroy all the equipment. If the New House can deliver then this will be seen as a net positive for the emperor and if the new House fails then with the backing of the empire who are suffering because of no spice then people would want them removed. Maybe the emperor can say this is a form of rebellion they are hoarding the spice then we should go in and punish them. Then the emperor can say they resisted we had to kill them in self defence

[@DanielChico09]

@@KaNoMikoProductionsThis kind of accusation was a very effective defamation. When people believe this person to be so treacherous even amicable encounters could be excuses for murder diplomacy become impossible. Cesare Borgia lost, even though genius like Machiavelli and Leonardo da Vinci considered him a brilhante policiam and military leader. Maybe at a longer timescale being feared wasn't better than being loved...

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

@@tylerghersinich576 Basically the Atreides was a samll house with an absurdly well trained army, and they were both very popular in the landsraad (the council of all nobel houses), and were conaidered war heroes to whom the current empire owes its existence. You are absolutely correct that the emperor was eithether afraid of a deposing of house Corrino, or of the Atreides cementing the other houses into a move to reduce the power of the emperor. The emperor primarily stayed in power ao far through the military might of the sardaukar, but the atreides rose to challange that, and as such marked themselves a potentially existential threat. This also makes it clear why Shaddam Corrino II is very afraid of making a martyr out of Leto Atreides.

[@No_nameOG]

Funnily enough, Duncan Idaho is the most repeated character in the novels, since he constantly being cloned. So props to making him a likable character. As for casting, most were cast pretty well, except for Liet Keynes, which was very jarring. As an addendum, the full descriptions of the characters aren’t even in the first novel. The THIRD book is where we find out that Chani has red hair, and Duncan has epicanthic folds on his eyes (so, Asian).

[@dragonknightleader1]

Oh gawd, are they going to make Jason Momoa slant his eyes to be even more faithful to the book?

[@led-0185]

Liet was sacrificed on the altar of diversity, which is funny because the character was made worse and weaker than its original counterpart, so I guess it made sense to change who HE was.

[@DAVESPEPSI]

Liet was fine and a minor character, relax. Remember it's an adaptation some things will change to start the characters. But everything else seem to be following the book.

[@Mythonaut]

I would have loved if they got Giancarlo Esposito to play Liet, he would have been perfect

[@Carstein666]

@Nicholas Cage Future or not, inserting forced diversity into the movie is still stupid. For starters, Fremen should be of the same race. Simply because they live on one planet with one climate. And on top of that, making some society include different races and ethnicities is a common shorthand for showing that it is diverse and inclusive (like Federation in Star Trek or the Rebel Alliance in Star Wars). Yet Fremen are the exact opposite of diverse and inclusive. And the funny thing is that people, who demand inclusivity, still complained about the movie. Cause it did not have any middle-eastern actors.

[@Pink.andahalf]

The real problem with the deaf guy in the helicopter is that he's (I assume) the countermeasure against them using the voice, and he's not paying attention to them for most of the scene.

[@muninnsays9296]

People got way too angry about this lol, but the criticism Fringy made of them wearing armour when they can still die was stupid. The armour is worn to protect as much of the body as possible, similar to medieval knights (wore lots of armour , “why would you wear it if you can still die”, well it reduces the areas that you can be hit on. People also don’t always make the “best” decisions about warfare, every country in ww2 had chemical weapons but no country used them, knights kept wearing plate armour despite the prevalence of guns. Most of the criticism was sound but the armour is something they do righ… until they’re attacked by surprise and fight without armour (and shields which is inexcusable, would take like a second to put on).

[@fakecubed]

In the book, it's explained that Hawat and his spy hunters found a bunch of Harkonnen agents on the planet before the attack, and they have a bunch of lasguns. Considering the danger of using lasguns around shields, it's basically a plant by the Harkonnens to make the Atreides nervous about using their shields when the invasion does happen. We also know that shields are useless in the desert, outside of the protected cities, because the worms come and go berserk. The whole shield technology thing is really just a contrivance to get everyone using knives and swords for the rest of the book. By the fourth book, the shields are actually largely dropped in favor of lasguns, so warfare evolves over time as new tactics and new realities come into play. That's not to say that any of the criticisms of the shield technology in this EFAP are valid. The rules for how they work and how they're defeated are consistent in the books and the film is consistent with the books' rules. They just don't know what those rules are, and are trying to invent their own to explain it and then argue against those strawmen while ignoring the offered explanations from the books. One of the biggest realities of war is that large armies cheaply equipped beat small armies with the absolute pinnacle of technology, pretty much every time. There is a balance between those two things, of course, but it's very realistic for soldiers not to be using the absolute best stuff in war, when there are cheaper, effective alternatives, either in technology or just in tactics. For example, depleted uranium bullets for battle rifles were actually a thing that NATO invented, and made a few of. Those would absolutely punch through whatever armor opposing infantry might wear. But the cost of that is at least 30 times the cost of fielding a soldier that can carry lead bullets, and then use tactics to pin down opposing infantry and flank them and shoot them in fleshy places that lead can penetrate. So just field a larger army instead, and do that.

[@aa6731]

People didn’t use chemical warfare in WWII because of a little something called “The Geneva Convention”.

[@dragonknightleader1]

@@fakecubed But the technological disparity is still a big enough issue when the attrition rate is so lopsided. The Zulu army are the most cheaply equipped army in the world during the Zulu War. They still lost to the British by a huge margin because while the Brits were outnumbered, they had guns and knew how to use them. So to have the Fremen win at the end of part 2, and let's be honest, part 1 and part 2 are meant to be seen as one movie, is more writer's fiat than anything else. These movies also beg the question of why no one uses physical shields, spears, and therefore the phalanx. The slow blade does not penetrate flat pieces of hardened steel and spears are very good at penetrating even when moving slowly. Logically, the phalanx should be standard doctrine as a wall of spears kills energy shield users just by walking at them. That it doesn't happen in the movies is a legit failure of direction and choreography.

[@nick_4972]

Better than any Disney or Marvel crap. Dune doesn’t force jokes every fucking minute.

[@libertyprime6932]

Youre exactly right and that's the least thing you could say about it. It's world building is far more in depth, it's far better written, the characters behave a lot more like humans etc etc :)

[@nhagan001]

Just every 12%, as per Closer Look’s commandments.

[@TheCaptainSlappy]

The sock account shills are definitely out and about to pump up this garbage movie.

[@nick_4972]

@@TheCaptainSlappy ??????????

[@TheCaptainSlappy]

@Nicholas Cage I enjoy it too, because the socks get really pissy and then comment about how that never happens. Thumbs up, superchat & subscribe!

[@MandoWookie]

OKay, at 2:17:00 in the video, but i have got to address a couple of things as someone who hasnt read the books either, and went in only knowing pop-culture things about Dune, ie spice must flow, the David Lynch Dune is weird, George Lucas was 'inspired' by it etc. I did see it with 2 people who had read the books, but only used them to confirm what I had gleaned from the movie itself. Starting with 'Shouldn't they know Paul has the voice?' No, because he is not supposed to have learned it. That is made clear by the creepy old lady that what his mom did was extremely illegal/forbidden, which is why when they found out she immediately went and 'tested' him. Yes he is very important to the Atredies house, and killing him if he failed would have big repercussions, but it demonstrates 2 things, 1 that the Gesseret are that fucking influential that they could probably get away with it, and 2 that Paul is very dangerous if he has this ability outside the Gesseret, and since they are all women, I can only assume it is not normal for a man to be able to pass the test, so they are willing to let it go because it seems that he may be part of the long plan the Gesseret have to breed the whatever he is supposed to be. Messiah or superman or something. The thing I get about the whole Harkonnen/ Emperor plan is that the Harkonnen are getting crazy rich and powerful, enough of both to threaten the Emperor and the other Houses, but despite their attempts to hold the planet their brutality against the Fremen and other houses is making the other houses nervous about their power and ambition, and doubting the Emperors ability to rain them in, threatening his powerbase. House Atredies is becoming the rally point the other houses are looking toward, because they apparently united their world under their banner by being the best trained soldiers and tacticians while also maintaining their honor, and not resorting to the tactics the Harkonnen use. So while they have less numbers and resources, they have a good reputation as a fighting force, and politically hold enough standing that the houses look to them over the Emperor, thus Jumbo saying the Emperor is a jealous man. So the Emperor makes a big show of pulling the Harkonnen off the planet for their failures, to send in the Atredies who everybody trusts. This demonstrates the Emperor still has power over the Harkonnen, and calms down the nervous houses. The Atredies suspect this isnt on the level, but the big show the Emperor makes about it puts them on the spot because if they disobey him it erodes their honorable reputation, and they would be foolish to reject the opportunity to have control over the greatest resource in the galaxy. So they take their chances that they can get things under control and fend off the intrigue long enough to establish themselves and get the spice moving. That was the dads whole story about the grandfathers obsession with bullfighting, that it was an unnecessary risk for no reward, but that this risk was worth it, even knowing they were likely to get gored. What they didnt count on was how badly they would get screwed on the transfer, the Harkonnen basically destroyed the entire spice mining infrastructure when they left, something anyone planning on retaking the planet wouldnt do because it would hurt them when they did, and the difficulty in getting the Fremen on board, who they were counting on to help them hold the planet, and mine the spice, that why they sent Jason Mamoa in before they were officially supposed to take over, to make contact and start diplomacy. They were hoping for more than live and let live with the natives. And they didnt count on the Emperor basically openly betraying them and sending his crazy death cult warriors to help the Harkonnen, and the Navigators being bought off to bring in all their enemies at once, it is remarked on multiple times that space travel is insanely expensive, and likely believed no one would be willing to spend what it took, at least for that scale of an attack. It seems that they assumed it would largely be political wrangling that would take them out, as Atredies is basically bankrupting themselves everyday they are on Arrakus without shipping out spice. As the dad says, he thought there would be more time. And he really didnt count on just how hostile the desert was. They figured the Emperors plan was to let them embarrass themselves and then pull them out like the Harkonnen had been, and then let the Harkonnen burn through there money reserves restarting production. And its stated by the Jumbo that they basically did burn through all of their cash, but had hoarded a lot more spice over the years than anyone knew, so were able to take the hit. Its implied when the Jumbo is talking to Poe that this is also a personal thing between them. When it comes to the doctor betrayal thing, he is shown to be whatever the russian guy from Ant-man and the old guy are with they white eye thing, some kind of cyborg human computer thing, so who knows what his capabilties are, and I assumed that his family was back on the Atredies homeworld and was abducted or killed after they all left. There being a deaf guy on the team sent to get the mom? You mean the chick everyone knows has the Voice? A deaf guy who would be immune to that? That doesnt make sense to you? And why would the Gesseret lady tell the Harkonnen that Paul could do it too? No man is supposed to be able to do it, and if the Harkonnen know why shes protecting them that puts their plan(the gesserets) in more danger. And they didnt remotely shut down the plane, the pilot set up a mad max style kill switch as soon as he heard the shit going down behind him. Thats why he takes so long to react. And yeah the whole 'shields cause nuke explosions when hit by lasers ' thing is mentioned not once in the whole movie. Only the speed thing. And I assume the darts are kinda useless if you are wearing the armor they had when they first arrived. Which, BTW, where did that shit go? everybody running out into the Michael Bay scene in only their jammies with a sharp stick. Did the whole damn army just not have anybody on watch? Everything after this point kinda lost my interest, to much time on rambling visions and silly walking through the desert that could have been done to explain this bullshit above. And those visions, what the fuck are those? Is that part of the Gesseret thing? And apparently they arent reliable because almost nothing happens like they show.

[@MandoWookie]

Follow up now that I have seen the David Lynch Dune. Holy f*ck what the hell did I just watch? And how the hell is the most disturbing part being Patrick Stewart with a bald-mullet? You can complain about the new Dune being style over substance, but damn it dont hold a candle to the incomprehensible mess that is Lynch Dune. Though hilariously almost all the same scenes play out almost identically, but much more rushed through, and I can't figure out how you can have the exact same scenarios play out but somehow not the same information imparted? There has to be a middle ground between the overdrawn bloat of the Villeneuve Dune and the highlight reel acid trip Lynch Dune were you use your time to tell the story and not fill the screen with your masturbatory visual effects and art design. Both versions are equally guilty of it in my opinion, just one is much more obvious due to its compressed runtime.

[@dragonknightleader1]

"They were hoping for more than live and let live with the natives." But that's ultimately what Leto tells Stilgar anyways. He tells him that he is under the Emperor's mandate and must have free reign to move on the planet. The only thing he can give Stilgar is a promise that he will not bother their villages, which is very little considering what he said before.

[@MandoWookie]

@@dragonknightleader1 that's called 'diplomacy'. It was a start. Stilgar also agreed to let them mine spice unharmed. Which is already a big concession after decades of fighting. Leto leaving them alone, and vice versa, is a good place to start building trust. If he'd had time, with Duncan acting as the bridge, they likely could have worked toward more, especially with Paul being seen as a possible prophet. I almost think the visions Paul has of Jamis teaching him were from the timeline where they somehow weren't attacked by the Harkonnen.

[@BenDaviesHe3]

Fascinating listening to people who are getting into the details without reading the book. Many real issues pointed out that I didn’t notice because I had read the book.

[@kingpepe4862]

One of the few major issues with dune is it doesn't explain what mentats are and why they exist which is a very important detail in dune's world building.

[@soupycolumbo6977]

In defense of the Ornithopters, having an aircraft modelled after dragonflies would be exceptionably maneuverable if all of the physics limitations are accounted for. I am not an aeronautical engineer so I don't know what those limitations would be. Also, I think they look cool.

[@25meip]

It seems like it would create less downdraft than a helicopter or VTOL, but I honestly couldn't tell you why

[@fakecubed]

The main issue would be getting rid of the heat from friction. Clearly they have some amazing lube, or materials that are of absurd smoothness. But really, who cares, it's a world that exists twenty thousand years in our future. They probably worked it out.

[@Beard_Hood]

None of yall will probably read this, but boy i have alot to say. So first off I enjoyed this adaptation, I think it is probably the closest we have gotten to a good adaptation that also looks good. I am glad alot of ppl are now reading the book because of it. Now I have read both the book and seen the movie but I do my best too see them as separate entities. Movies, games, books, TV shows need too all stand in their own. But I do think there is moderate value in comparing, because you can now see who conveyed the scene or dialog or whatever better. There are two examples I like to use. Hunger Games and Enders Game. I like the movies Hunger Games slightly more than I do the books, mainly because I dont have to listen to Cat think, which was infuriating, so not having to listen to her think was a net benefit too me. Now Enders Game, I hated that movie. It was honestly a empty and vapid adaptation. They took the route of just adapting the events but didn't even try to explain Enders mind set and showing alot of his decisions and made the end feel empty. There are alot of things that are good and bad in both of these adaptations but I am here for Dune so here we go. So my first really big issue was them actually having the Carryall actually show up, by doing this they created the problem that yall pointed out, why didn't the carryall land? In the book it was just gone, later to be found with the whole crew dead. I think this was a bad adaptation choice because it created a problem that didn't exist before. Next is the Shields, it pissed me off when the Hark ship started shooting at Duncan with the lazar because, yes there is the possibility of a small nuclear explosion. This ties into my problem that they left out ALL the politics, because the politics explain alot of yalls issues that you bought up. It frustrated me that by doing the adaptation the way they did, it created problems for the first time Duner. In the book the Harks send a "hey let's talk Leto" and leto was like "no, fuck off" and the Barron was like "okay cool the forms have been followed now we can attack them and the emperor won't step in with his Sardacar and wipe us out." Because that's the role of the Sar, they keep the peace between houses and executes attacks on Houses that break the laws. One of the laws is nuclear explosions whoever is responsible for setting off a nuke, example if the Harks nuke the Duke instead of invade the law requires that the Emp wipe out the Harks. So nukes are not worth the risk, because if it does get traced back too you. You and your whole line are killed. Same with chemical war fair. The political story effects so fucking much of the story that I think it hurts the story more by being out than if it had been in. Let's see what else was there that I think was a poor choice of adaptation... OH. The freaking Doctor, I was so annoyed there wasn't any time spent on the traitor story line. His motivation isn't necessarily improved but it makes more sense why he does what he does. Oh and Liet was absolutely gutted as a character and in the movie it ends up not being a massive issue because they cut out all the politics. But the politics not being in it does effect the story. Like yes thinking A.I are illegal, I think basic computing is okay. But a thing that can do all the work for you is illegal, and that effects things like why the fuck the mentats are a thing and why its important that Paul is a mentat and the man child the Bene are looking for. But it isnt talked about or explained so it takes away from the understanding a first time viewer would get. Basically what it all comes down too for me is that what the removed hindered the story, what they actually changed srewed up the story. Hell makes me think of Jlongbones video on Beauty and the Beast. Changes made have a bigger effect than people seem to think. And it effects the quality in the end.

[@Zach0451]

@@BbNaB Dune is 1 single book you absolute dunce

[@Zach0451]

@@BbNaB Again, the movie is about a single book. Dune, the book, stands alone as an independent piece of media just fine. The other 5 have no bearing on the first book looked at in isolation You're literally just doing the nerd virtue signal thing: "WeLl AkShuAlLy DeR R 6 BoOkZ, I aM vErY iNtElLigEnT"

[@samwallaceart288]

Agreed on all points

[@Zach0451]

@@BbNaB Only if you believe a good adaptation needs to incorporate the book beat-for-beat. We all know that to be an idiotic standard considering no movies do such

[@Zach0451]

@@BbNaB Thanks for proving my initial point of you just being a weirdo elitist trying to flex your ability to read a book on others. I've read all the books by the way, they're shit after God Emperor of Dune.

[@Zero_2500]

This stream would have benefited greatly from someone doing the “Shad” role like during the Mando streams. When you break down a complex piece of media like dune, having someone to rely upon for background information or to lend an opposing lens seems like a good idea. Using the chat doesn’t seem to work very well with your format. This discussion is extremely frustrating for someone knowledgeable on the extended media as you seem to have missed some visual cues and story elements. The film was extremely thin on exposition so the visuals are more expository than I hear being discussed or credited. It would be like having a GOT panel about season 4 and 5 but not discussing the books at all or saying they were irrelevant. That wasn’t a common issue when discussing that media. I recall Mauler bemoaning the Tywin death scene for 4 seasons because they messed up Tyrion’s motivation. Having someone who could do that with this story would have made the discussion much more enjoyable. Do you guys not have a regular guest who is a big Dune fan?

[@fin524]

I haven't watched this stream yet, but didn't Rags say that he read the books? Or they could have asked Wolf about it and written notes before the stream.

[@led-0185]

@@fin524 Sadly Rag's got kicked by a drunk driver and missed the entire discussion.

[@Zero_2500]

@@fin524 I really miss Wolf for topics like this and in general.

[@fin524]

@@led-0185 Must have been Jay's work.

[@essexclass8168]

Iirc there's drinker and theres gotta be at least one from FNT right?

[@nachofilament294]

"Since armor piercing rounds exist, why do cops and soldiers wear body armor? And since body armor exists, why does anyone have any non-AP ammo?" -The conversation surrounding the Dune tech

[@sohbeck846]

To be fair, why would the first and second most powerful houses in the entire empire, have armies that doesn't have body armor AND armor piercing rounds.

[@Scortch-lo3xy]

@@sohbeck846 they do...

[@TheShadowOfHumanity]

@@sohbeck846 Idk ask modern America

[@LB-py9ig]

In-universe "The slow blade penetrates the shield" is metaphor for how the Dune universe works where launching an all-out attack is rarely as effective as a well-placed assassin, a little sabotage in the right place or simply spreading a rumor. He's not saying, "this is how shields work" he's saying "hit the enemy where they least expect it and where it's most difficult to trace back to you."

[@batteryshower4714]

I know I'm late but isn't this how shields work?

[@AscendantStoic]

About the darts, you do realize that in real life Kevlar body armor exists and bullets that can pierce it also exists at the same time, but body armor is still used because not everyone can get their hands on armor piercing bullets or guns that fire them. So the issue of darts could be that they are hard to manufacture in bulk and maybe also hard to use, the point I would concede is they should have done a little bit more (a very short scene) to be explain why the darts aren't just commonly used by everyone.

[@Warfoki]

To be fair, this is a movie original idea. In the book, Leto was simply caught so off-guard by attack being completely silent, no alarms and such, that he didn't have his shield on when it happened, so the dart worked. There are no specifically designed slow darts or bombs in the book that can penetrate shields. I guess that the movie made them up, partially for effects (the slow bombs exploding everything looks really neat and clever), and partially to make Leto more competent. In the book Leto was very flawed. He was a genuinely honorable man, refusing to use underhanded tactics, which in turn kept biting him in the ass and ultimately led to his death.

[@UnderearthEDO]

Unless I'm mistaken the argument at 2:16:00 about the thopter being turned off remotely by Harkonnens is completely incorrect. The pilot sets it to land and then auto shut off once it does. It is not some remote control the Harkonnens have over all thopters. The deaf guy in this scene also seemed pretty apparent to me to be a redundancy/contingency to account for Jessica having the voice. I would argue that it makes sense for Him to be there as a guard but he should be the only one interacting with the prisoners just to be safe. The fact Paul has the voice does complicate things though. The Benegeserit leader wants them alive and I believe Paul's ability to be kept on the down low to help with that plan. So I think it's reasonable that she wouldn't mention it to the Barron.

[@UnderearthEDO]

@@B4KED2POTAT0 It always came across to me that the Harkonnen voice wasn't radio chatter but the ship stating that it has entered a shutdown mode. Because it shuts down immediately after it lands. If it were radio chatter there'd be a delay where they'd ask for the report again and then maybe shut it down but that doesn't happen. It turns itself off immediately upon landing.

[@UnderearthEDO]

@@B4KED2POTAT0 Why not? I always assumed the thopters where there when the Harkonnens where as well. They seem more like something used on dune then a tool specifically used by a certain faction but I'm not 100% in this. And when the Harkonnens invade they just set the Thopter to a Harkonnen voice package. But either way like you said they could have simply paired it up with their systems during the invasion so it's mostly a moot point. The other reason I don't believe this is what happened though is because they could have just shut down Duncan's Thopter but they don't.

[@ianparrent6012]

Yay! Christmas time! Time for their adorable avatars. I'm pretty sure Fringy has Christmas stuff in his pockets.

[@sparkypack]

He changed later to a ginger(bed) one. 🎄🎅❄️

[@ianparrent6012]

@@sparkypack Yay!

[@Party_Almsivi]

Got my EFAP battle pass. Almost got the iridescent Fringy skin, just need to fill a coom jar half way, and harass three more women.

[@Endar0]

Thank you for reading my comments in the stream. I am glad I was able to explain some things. I agree that the Dune movie could have done much better to explain things. The first movie and the mini-series did a better job at that, in some places.

[@isaiahsmith7123]

The Spicediver cut of the David Lynch film is definitely better than the theatrical cut.

[@puppysect]

I always felt that the Sci-fi miniseries gets a raw deal. I think the format suits the story better.

[@Endar0]

@@puppysect I agree. The miniseries format would fix a lot of the issues of the movie. The downside is getting a budget to make a good quality miniseries.

[@puppysect]

@@Endar0 I'd trade four seasons of Game of Thrones for Dune.

[@adamjd7645]

I actually felt the political situation was reasonably well handled & the plan explained in enough detail without laying it all out: 1. Atreides are popular; that's a threat to the Emperor. 2. Harkonnen are rich & unscrupulous; the perfect tools for the Emperir's plan. 3. The Atreides know they're being set up to fail (at administering Dune); but have no choice. They have no reason to suspect the Emperor wants them taken down a peg in prestige. 4. Plans within plans, the Harkonnen want to eliminate their mortal enemy & the Emperor is happy to support that, so long as it's not openly known he did. 5. The Atreides being attacked & wiped out on Caladan is a) risky & b) blatant which is bad for the Harkonnens. 6. The plan is hatched to eliminate them with the help of a traitor in unfamiliar territory. 7. By the time the Atreides realise the depth of the set up (sabotage, no help from the Judge of the Change, etc) it's too late. Yueh seals the deal, noting the Atreides weren't overly vulnerable with their shields up. I've only used that which is explicitly stated or reasonably inferred from the movie. Obviously the War of Assassins, etc is much clearer in the book, but the movie motivation holds up if you parse the pieces.

[@TheGavrael]

Yeah they are saying a lot of strange things about not understanding this. MauLer says "the fremen can get offworld". No, they can't. No ships come to and from the planet unless specifically by permission of the Spacing Guild. No fremen are ever shown off-world except during Paul's vision. The emperor can't be seen as being directly involved or the other houses will turn against him, so he uses the Baron's desire for vengeance. The emporer isn't playing the Baron, it's more like they are working together. As you said, this is all actually in the film and not info pulled only from the books. I see this happening a lot with EFAP lately. Things are explained and they just ignore it. Criticize the explanation if you want, but don't act like it isn't there.

[@vadandrumist1670]

I wonder how they would compare this to the old one.

[@charlesowen5408]

Perfect for EFAP movies

[@thetoad5407]

This, I would love to see. The 1984 Dune is just good, wholesome, old-fashioned bonkers.

[@fluffyferret9262]

My biggest complaint about this version of the story is that unless you have prior knowledge from the books or other cinematic adaptations, a lot of what is happening is hard or near impossible to understand. In regards to your conversation at approximately 1:20:00, Arakis has no satellites due to demands from the Guild, which is the basis for why the emperor and the Harkonnens want the Atreides there in order to wipe them out. I believe it is mentioned in a brief one-off line in the movie but it is definitely discussed in other iterations. They use this premise to make the argument that they can control the dissemination of information as to what actually happened to the Atreides following the double cross. I'm not saying that this movie earns that understanding through what it shows/tells and maybe its just my previous knowledge base. As far as the Atreides decisions go, they feel as though they have to go along with the Emperor's directive to take control of Dune and expect the attack, but they did not anticipate how quickly the attack would come. Their intention is to harness "Desert Power" as they call (i.e. the Fremen) in order to build up a defensive position great enough to withstand the assault. Obviously the timeline doesn't work out for them but that is their basic plan.

[@HalbdaemonKite]

I dunno... I didn't read the book, but I didn't find anything in the movie particularily incomprehensible. Maybe some minor details? But I'm kinda blanking on what they could have been.

[@robbomegavlkafenryka6158]

On the whole “why give Leto Dune?” Question. The Emperor needed to lure Leto and Paul out of Attrades controlled space and into a vulnerable position. The Harkonnons disabled all the satellites orbiting the planet. If the Emperor ordered Leto to show up to Harkonnon controlled Dune, he wouldn’t have brought Paul and would’ve brought an army with him and have an escape route planned. The Harkonnons and Attrades fight each other all the time already.

[@dragonknightleader1]

Wouldn't a satellite network come close to being a thinking machine? The way this movie looks, one would think there was not Butlerian Jihad.

[@robbomegavlkafenryka6158]

@@dragonknightleader1 you don’t need a sentient AI to have a communication or scanning satellite.

[@dragonknightleader1]

@@robbomegavlkafenryka6158 But it does need a network of computers sending visual sensory data at all times. Considering that people are paranoid about AI to begin with, having a bunch of computers seems close enough to people discriminate against AI.

[@arenkai]

That's in the movie, so I'm confused about their question

[@robbomegavlkafenryka6158]

@@dragonknightleader1 what? That makes zero sense. You can have a computer without giving it AI. Or you could even man the satellites instead of just making the automated.

[@BenignViewer]

@16:25 _Dune_ the book is really only Act 1 and 2 of Paul's Story, it's a strange read. _Dune Messiah_ completes Act 3. I hope Villeneuve's film series gets to do all 3 parts.

[@antraxxslingshots]

I accept they want to judge it without the book, but for someone who loves the books and wants to compare it this is a hard to bear EFAP...and i wonder if there were people that felt the same. Just take the Caryall Problem for example: 1:36:25 Not only is instantly clear as bookreader that the caryall was sabotaged by the Harkonnen, no, when Mauler demands "Backup-Caryalls" it is clear to a bookreader that it is totally the other way round since ships are so goddamn expensive. the harvester is like a Dirtbike that calls for a blackhawk to get lifted up if in danger and we have 1 blackhawk for like 5-10 dirtbikes because the danger travels slowly. And now Mauler demands a 3 Blackhawks per Dirtbike situations...which makes me almost scream at the screen, because the movie just screwed the sourcematerial up. but i also totally get their point....yet is is very frustrating to listen to ^^

[@MandoWookie]

I didnt read the book, and I got that. They were complaining about the sabotage since the moment they got to the planet. They just expected the Emperors representive to do something about it. And they didnt have any option than just try to make do with the crap they got left with.

[@growndown3358]

such a shame Denis Villeneuve didn't play the role of the harvester pilot. Would have been a cool easter egg to David Lynch's movie

[@Galvatronover]

@@BbNaB what do you mean ? From what I’m hearing he made a faithful adaptation to HALF of the book

[@BbNaB]

@@Galvatronover Got about a third of the way through the book by cutting out 70% of the story Most of what he included from the book were little unexplained details that were left out of Lynch's movie

[@WoofgangPrime]

Chat: "There's no way that those dragonfly ships could fly." Me: *looks at the setting of the movie* Yup, still 8000 years IN THE FUTURE.

[@silkendreams2409]

I'm calling it now. The thing they keep teasing for 166 is going to be be Clone Wars. I'm basing this on Order 66 being the meme number

[@gueton5200]

could also be the prequel arc that they introduced and haven't touched since 84, it's movies they are passionate about, it's star wars themed, and quite a chunk of the audience still thinks they are well written, it's perfect for EFAP to cover

[@antoniosimoes5237]

@@gueton5200 "and quite a chunk of the audience still thinks they are well written" are you referring to the prequels or the clone wars show? just curious.

[@austinwoods466]

@@antoniosimoes5237 Both.

[@gueton5200]

@@antoniosimoes5237 well it can apply to both, but i was refering to the prequels

[@MediumRareOpinions]

@@gueton5200 I'm hoping they lean into the memes a little. As flawed as they are they held dear for their comedic value alone.

[@melodramaticjerbear155]

Imagine watching this movie 4 times and not understanding why there was a deaf Harkonnen in the 'thopter. This move has a lot of flaws, and I agree with a lot of their critiques, but if you miss something that explicit, it kind of calls all the rest of your critiques into question.

[@Batmans_Pet_Goldfish]

They understand why, but it's dumb.

[@melodramaticjerbear155]

@@Batmans_Pet_Goldfish They literally said it was convenient that he was deaf and it's the only reason Paul and Jessica escaped, when the opposite is true. The deaf guy is there as a contingency for Jessica using the Voice. There's a lot of tism in that scene, but the deaf guy ain't it.

[@Sir-Raph]

On the subject of Spiderman NWH vfx crunch and shots being delivered within a week of premiering: It's actually quite standard practice by now across the industry. My brother does a lot of work with ILM, and they were literally still working on later episodes of The Mandalorian as it was premiering... And it looks like once again over the holidays, he'll end up working on "urgent" last minute shots for the Bobba Fett series.

[@samwallaceart288]

3:00:38 Mauler's laying out of how he would pace out the movie is _exactly right._ They hard-core skipped Leto trying to make Arrakis work and the Harkonnen's being like, "Oh shit, he's actually doing it; fuck him up quick before it's too late," THAT is the meat of act 1, while Paul's visions and mental stability get worse and percolate under the surface. Skipping the Arrakis stuff with Leto diving into the nitty gritty of spice logistics meant skipping the reason for watching this movie; Paul's stuff is super important to set up for the sequel but the moment Part 2 comes out, this movie will be one that people just flat-out skip on the rewatch, which is a shame, because the Leto vs Bene Gesserit stealing his son vs the Harkonnens' influence in Arrakis is such a great dynamic to carry the film, and they wasted it in favor of sequel baiting. And fuck anyone who says it isn't about Leto; that's like saying Lion King isn't about Mufasa, and using that as an excuse to remove half Mufasa's scenes from the first act. The first half of Dune is split between Leto and Paul, with Paul being the subconscious emotional B-plot to Leto's external conflict A-plot. Then the second half is all about Paul being more assertive over his mom and coming to terms with his future-tyranny with the Fremen uprising as the external conflict A-plot. When splitting the book in two, making Leto and Paul share main-character status is exactly the right call, and the whole problem with this movie is that Leto's best shit got skipped to make room for sequel-trailers.

[@thuglifebear5256]

Leto is 100% Mufasa.

[@dragonknightleader1]

Great point! Leto just looks like he was duped in this movie.

[@libertyprime6932]

Paul is important and there would be hell to pay if he failed the pain box test. But having an evil chosen one would be worse from grandmas perspective. Grandma obviously is a heavy hitter. Hence even Harkonens having to find a weasle way of killing Paul and Mum without upsetting her. And the "It's your fault for having a son" line is perfectly fitting since Mum was whining about how brutal the test was. It's entirely natural for grandma to say "this happened because of YOU, you chose to have him" [Edit: Actually I rewatched the dialog in that scene and it is pretty clunky. Goes on too much like "you ignored me because you thought you could manifest the prophecy", pretty on the nose there]

[@Saladrex999]

For anyone wondering, at 51:36 (12% of runtime) is the inciting incident of this EFAP... Overall good video cause it had a solid three arc structure; Ragsss is there, then we panick as he is gone, then he returns for the climax! But the question remains, why did The Long reach across the pond and unplug the Ragssss electricity? What was he afraid the doggo would say????

[@gueton5200]

Ragu was going to intimidate them into sharing his opnions, everyone is afraid of disagreeing with rag's afterall

[@spartansquid5931]

3:43:03 GODDAMN MauLer's impression was so perfect that I didn't even notice Closer Look stopped talking until I saw the video was paused.

[@nesbits22]

I’m confused, I watched the film twice and both times I interpreted the priestess granny’s words as her not knowing that paul had been trained. that’s very different from her not knowing he existed. if jessica had been delaying telling her, the news that they’re going to arrakis might have spurred her on (because at that point he has to be tested and I imagine that’s easier done on caladan than arrakis) people who’ve read the books or have a better memory of the dialogue are free to correct me here

[@DavidBrown-ts2us]

Damn I wish I was on the live chat for this one, there's so much lore I could have explained.

[@edgythehedgy6661]

I lie on the side of not loving the shields, but granted, Frank Herbert never intended this to be a science heavy sci-fi. I also understand that this is a whataboutism, but I’ve never heard them critique the horrible science in Star Wars this much. Even when I was a kid I thought Star Wars blasters were stupid…. I mean, if they move that slowly and can be dodged and blocked etc. why not just use a regular gun? A 9mm would have ended Luke’s journey almost immediately. That’s where suspension of disbelief comes in, for me anyway; if you accept one of these issues, then the story can still be an enjoyable experience. Unfortunately most artists no jack-all about physics, so it happens quite frequently.

[@Galvatronover]

Why not use guns because real world guns look out of place in the setting

[@fakecubed]

Why didn't Frodo just use a gun against Shelob? Tolkien was such a hack. Obviously everything that exists in real life has to exist in a fantasy or scifi setting or it's terrible.

[@rickymartin4457]

​@@fakecubedExactly. Suspension of disbelieve is a thing afterall. Now if the movie made attempts to be all sience-y about stuff, a closer look is warranted, but the amount of this low-hanging "gotcha"-move of some movie critics using "reel wurld seyence" to show how amazing they are that they just proved that a fairytale is indeed "just made up" is staggering. Like yeah, no shit Sherlock, I didn't know until you pointed out that a talking wolf in little red riding hood makes no real world sense.

[@Calvinosaur]

@@fakecubed That's not applicable to Star Wars here, since firearms ("sluthrowers" in-universe) have been around since the beginning: the sand people had them way back in the first movie. As for blasters having no advantages as the original comment claims, well... they can fire many shots without reloading, and don't require extra ammunition to be carried around. Their shots aren't affected by wind, bullet drop, or recoil. In a post-Republic Galaxy there's little enough reason to fear going up against a lightsaber. Obviously the Clone Wars-era droids should have been using slugthrowers against Jedi, but the prequels have much bigger issues than this.

[@MrPyroCrab]

There actually is an explanation, although it's not in the movies. Basically guns (called Slugthrowers) do exist in the Star Wars universe, but body armour in the Star Wars universe is so good that it renders most conventional firearms utterly obsolete. You could shoot a Stormtrooper with a 50 Cal and it would probably just bounce off of him.

[@bepisboy291]

"Why not just use explosives on shields" every battle scene takes place indoors other than the assault on the palace, which they needed to deploy foot soldiers into to capture the Atreides nobles. Allies will be caught in the blast and you'll collapse the environment around you. There's a reason why SWAT teams don't take grenade launchers inside with them. "Everyone should use dart weapons" this is a shakey criticism. We see with Duncan that darts don't reliably kill, only impede. Leto got shot in the back and couldn't reach it in time. A soldier with a dart drilling into his shield could still be a threat for a few seconds before it took him out, PLUS they normally wear armor underneath. (Sardaukar didn't have armor plating in the movie btw, just suits) They could only really be used in close quarters with the low velocity too, and at that point it makes even more sense to favor a sword. "Just use chemical weapons" maybe, but it would certainly have to be sparingly. If your enemy is on equal footing they likely have respirators as well, and if you're trying to capture something you wouldn't want to contaminate the shit out of it for a long time. It would be extremely easy for it to backfire on the open windy desert, too. "The Harkonnen soldier just HAPPENED to be deaf for plot convenience" no, he was insurance for Jessica's gag coming off. "How could they remotely cripple Paul and Jessica's ship and not Duncan's" I could be wrong, but I interpreted that scene as the Harkonnen guy on the radio not receiving a response and shutting it down since he figured Paul and Jessica had taken control. "Why go through all the trouble just to kill house Atreides/wouldn't they be able to tell everyone about their betrayal" The emperor wanted them in an environment they were less advantageous in. Leto said they ruled Caladan through air and sea power, two things they didn't use on Arrakis. Had they tried to kill them on Caladan, it might've been much harder. Also by allowing houses to feud and exposing the Atreides to be poor at spice production, the Emperor takes eyes off of himself. Also the Atreides cannot get offworld without the Spacing Guild or Fremen smuggling. One is now impossible considering the Harkonnen would monitor Guild export from Arrakis and the other requires them to find Fremen without dying and earn their trust assuming we're talking about other survivors. There doesn't seem to be intergalactic communication considering both the Emperor's herald met them on Caladan and the Reverend Mother met with the Baron in person.

[@PedroThePanda64]

You could literally just re-upload a The Closer Look video and rename it to GDELB and no one would bat an eye.

[@olivierford76]

These coverages of The Closer look crack me up so much. Between TCL roller coaster speech and word selection to the efap crew’s reaction and parody of it, I’m laughing from beginning to end 🤣

[@travisvwright]

Confirmed we are getting a EFAP Movies of the Star Wars Christmas Special.

[@Soyuz2578]

This comment aged like fine milk

[@NickYoung22]

1:28:45 They knew they were going to get killed. Leto literally says “I thought we had more time” and “I should have married you” the night before the attack.

[@TripleS-Reviews]

People always get their panties in a bunch when you guys cover a vague interpretable film or an adaption of a book. This being both has got so many people throwing out their assumptions of how they think things happened in the movie mixed with the people who've read the books who layer the information they already know from that over the movie then say the movie explained it when it didn't. Saying that I don't need every little thing explained to me in the movie, if a character says something is the way it is then I just go with it instead of being like 'i don't think that would work', the character has said it did so it did, end of, move on. I don't need an exposition dump to tell me how no one knows about Atreides being destroyed.

[@therukshuka3616]

I like this stream, it highlights the value of world building in the scifi genre.. hope they lean into it a bit more in part 2

[@groundhero10casual]

2:43:42 I don’t know if that attitude will fly with this one. How do you adapt something this lore heavy, intricate, and strange without making it look like terrible abominations? How do you avoid the fate of the previous dune movies? Wait, have you seen the previous dune?

[@jeezlooweez5358]

This is a wonderful session about a fantastic film. I'd love to get a Dune 2 EFAP please.

[@shotgunmasterQL]

My reading of that situation with the space witch women getting pissy about Paul's existence is that they are trying to point out how big of a rule break having a son is to them, not that "oh wow, I forgot you existed lmao". Not enough to get you just disowned by the group, but big enough that they will hold a grudge over it, but still not enough to deny the person their lineage if they are being taught that way. Thinking about it more without knowing anything about the book, they probably want exclusively daughters because only they can "force abort" and therefore ensure a more efficient breeding and propagation of the witches.

[@MediumRareOpinions]

So you're close, in the book they want daughters because they're conducting a selective breeding program by matching up their members with male heirs to the noble houses in order to eventually produce a male heir that will have extremely potent precognition. (Thats why Paul can see glimpses of possible futures) Jessica had a son one generation too soon, they wanted her to have a daughter who would be paired up with a Harkonan and they were supposed to have a son.

[@shotgunmasterQL]

@@MediumRareOpinions Oh yeah, now that you mentioned it, I think the movie did say that the "savior" or whatever was planned and he was supposed to be male, but I can't remember how that was exactly presented. I don't think it was quite as explicit as to say that they were just one generation off, though.

[@MediumRareOpinions]

@@shotgunmasterQL Thats what I recall from the books, it's possible that part 2 could expand on it further. I can't recall when that information was given in terms of the books structure its been a while since I read it.

[@isaackane4931]

A secret yet unseen EFAP that might cause waves? Are we finally getting the fabled Avatar the Last Airbender discussion? Will E;R come out of hiding when we need him the most?

[@albedo5455]

Some speculate it's about Clone Wars.

[@Hashbrown1682]

I still can't get over the avatar one

[@Kernwadi]

"Objectivity is objective, in my subjectively subjective opinion." -Bilbo Baggins

[@Vario69]

The movie explains stuff: "THAT'S LAZY EXPOSITION" The movie doesn't explain stuff: "I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO READ THE BOOK" The movie explains but it's not in a concise exposition: "THE MOVIE IS 5 HOURS LONG" Some points I totally get, but man, so many points are so petty and unfair

[@WL1264]

The movie is trying to turn a huge book Into a 5 hour movie. It was never gonna work. So inevitably no matter what you do there will be complaints.

[@DayTripperrr]

Mauler’s channel in a nutshell

[@Wyzai]

1:58:23 if the only weakness of the shield is need for oxygen, you could just wear a scuba suit and use an impenetrable shield. Sure, you'd need to take a break every 1 - 2 hours to replace your oxygen canisters, but you''d be invincible. That sounds like a worthwhile exchange in some combat scenarios.

[@maxemiloddmoland5476]

I did think Dune was a mixed bag. It had a good enough acting, good cinematography, cool design of structures, clothing etc. However you notice quite easily that this is a Villeneuve film with its sleek modern design in parts of the movie which I personally dont like, but wont argue is bad. It. I felt the worldbuilding was effective with a cohesive plot. However I did feel it dragged at times with to many of the main characters "visions/dream sequences". Hans Zimmer still makes music that is annyiong and stressful with the exception of one track (bagpipes when they arrive on the planet). There are scenes that could have been removed and made this a better movie I think.

[@Bigproffits]

Thats a good assessment but id have to see the 2nd movie to decide. I like slowly drawn out movies. Gives time to think about whats happened/ guess whats going to happen. I like not knowing. I never read any of the books and I saw the original film but i was only like 7 or 8 so I didnt understand/remember anything aside from theres a big worm. So I personally like the visions giving glimpses of what may happen, how hes going to try to prevent things, and how seeing the outcomes might change his path. Over all time wise yeah they could cut some 30 second shots down to 20 or whatever but its def not a deal breaker or anything. Its one of the few films in the last year or two I actually enjoyed and walked away wondering how the 2nd movie is going to take things.

[@whitworth5s248]

Mauler complaining about there being too much exposition while also complaining that he doesn't understand what they're talking about is hilariously ironic. If your main character is talking to the supporting character and one of them says outright "I was a jedi. Your father was a jedi. We fought in the clone wars together" and you don't know what a jedi is or what the clone wars were, it doesn't make it bad exposition. It barely qualifies as exposition at all. It's just giving proper names to things. Bad exposition is telling you the plot of the movie through words instead of actions, like "Somehow the Emperor has come back." It is not "Some people think your son is the [whatever]" without filling the audience in on how important that is. If you the audience spend the rest of the movie learning how important that thing might be, it's actually _good_ exposition.

[@BTM8109]

I found the Stilgar spitting scene really charming, cultural misunderstandings do be like that

[@A.M.Kovacs.Author.Musician]

"Just use guns that shoots those fly-darts." You mean a dart gun... like the one Dr Huey used in that very scene?

[@egalai1954]

the problem isnt that those dart guns arent everywhere which was their actual criticism

[@A.M.Kovacs.Author.Musician]

@@egalai1954 Took them an inordinate amount of autistic screeching to get there. As for the reason why they aren't everywhere is quite simple: they are not that effective. It works the best if shot in the back like Leto, but if the target is either too close or too far it won't work.

[@bnau374]

The politics remember me a lot of The Holy Roman Empire, where it was very common for factions to war each other and fuck each other over which was very much tolerated and even instigated by the Emperor in power when he could benefit from it and this was very clearly going on here too (haven't read the books, only learned afterwards that I was right)

[@Tyarrk]

"A story has to have a 3 Act structure!" ... Quentin Tarantino: "Hold my beer!"

[@octopusman1430]

Heh heh chat was hilarious in this, "Wow mauler still doesn't get it!" "They explain this in the books!" Fun stuff.

[@TheVagabond627]

Were they wrong?

[@3rdPartyIntervener]

if you want your movie to be anything other than an expensive love-letter to the fans (nothing wrong with that) it has to stand on-its-own without requiring the casual viewer to read the entirety of Herbert's works first.

[@diazinamon2431]

​@@TheVagabond627Yes.

[@RandomizedCTRL]

The plot change just betrays the current political understanding regarding the Fremen. The empire getting resources from Arrakis is evil, despite the fact that human civilization cannot exist without the Spice. The Fremen changing from honorable to xenophobes is no problem because they are the aggrieved indigenous people.

[@25meip]

Entrancing is the perfect word for this movie. I think, however, it would stand on it's own better if we had any sense of how Paul was changing as a character. We know so little about him, his growth doesn't seem to really matter to the plot. Compare to fellowship of the ring, we know exactly what kind of person Frodo is and how events have shaped him. For Paul, stuff just happens and he reacts and we move on.

[@philomathist6899]

As for lasers and shields, no you didn’t see lasers being used on shield they only used the laser once the shields were down. Secondly, the use of nuclear devices are utterly banned if you use them literally every world, every house, the guild, everyone will deflect war and obliterate you. Third, computers as we know them are also utterly banned, “thou shall not create a machine in the form of a human mind.” Roman Catholic Bible, not all of this is explained very well but if there are more will be explained. You already criticized the amount of exposition and to get any of this would require a lot more…

[@essexclass8168]

Yeah, the Nuke point the cast made is well and good until you realize we have nuclear bazookas, have had access to mass produced chemical weapons and biological weapons for at least 80-100 years yet nobody uses them in warfare. Even psychopaths of the IJA for example restricted biological attacks on the Us for fear of not only retaliation but also escalation. The difference between this and Star Wars' superweapons is that blowing up planets isn't the norm and blowing up Dune isn't an option.

[@philomathist6899]

@@essexclass8168 one problem with that criticism is that you are using our world technology where you do no know if that will work in the dune universe. as to nukes, any use of them will cause everyone to destroy the entire house who used them. Eventually Dune is blown up or at least made uninhabitable.

[@essexclass8168]

@@philomathist6899 Aye, as it happens atomics are also banned by the Empire

[@Foileedify]

48:25 ish.. Yes, Mauler, this is the first conversation that they've had with her, or even contact.. Universe is a big thing, and you're being told, by this Mother Superiour chastising Jessica, that this is, indeed, the first time she's been able to do this, might even be the first that she's heard that it's a son.

[@adamjd7645]

It doesn't even need to explain that. Given the new situation of the Atreides being sent into mortal danger on Arrakis, it makes sense that the issue only now manifests. Prior to this move by the Emperor, Paul being Paul & not Pauline was likely a minor inconvenience.

[@Foileedify]

@@adamjd7645 It does make a big difference to the Bene Gesserit, which is why Jessica gets that scolding. But traveling from planet to planet is a big thing in this universe, something that not even a Duke's son of one of the biggest and richest families, has experienced before. This they actually do tell us in the movie, and that does make us able to make some educated guesses. Unlike the EFAP crew that apparently missed this detail, that everyone of the very important and very rich groups travelled on the same interplanetary ship.

[@adamjd7645]

@@Foileedify I'm not disputing the BG didn't consider it a problem in realising their plans (they were supposed to marry Feyd to the Atreides heir). But it wasn't end-of-days bad until the Atreides were on the chopping block. GHM went to Caladan knowing Paul was male, remember. She hadn't met him before, but knew of him.

[@bobsmith-qu2oq]

The people who claim the Hunter Seeker" was not piloted are off their nut. Both the film and book make it clear there is a human operator

[@pvtspartan]

Fringy: "Humans can't survive past a month without food." Me: "laughs in water fasting for 2 months inspired by a dude who water fasted for a year"

[@Bigproffits]

I m sorry I dont know what water fasting is. Are you saying you havnt eaten anything in 2 months? Like youve only drank water by itself for 2 months?

[@mk-tu3gv]

Angus (if that's who you are talking about) had regular doctor checkups and took lots of vitamins and minerals during his fast. Don't hurt yourself mate, eating is important.

[@pvtspartan]

@@Bigproffits Yes water only for 2 months. Felt great, lost alot of weight. Kept exercising so I didn't lose much muscle at all.

[@Bigproffits]

@@pvtspartan oh wow i didnt know that was possible. Thats impressive!! Do you still feel emergetic and stuff? Im a skinny bastard so id probly die after like 4 days haha but congrats on the weight loss! Thats great to hear!

[@pvtspartan]

@@Bigproffits The first 3 days were really hard but after awhile you don't feel hunger anymore and yeah I felt hyper alert and had plenty of energy for most of it. I wanted to do 3 months but when I got hungry again I knew it was time to eat.

[@jtdavie9466]

One of the most fundamental parts of Dune lore is how humans have basically been able to replace complex computers through what are essential super drugs and it’s not in the movie😢

[@markyonline1]

Rags was without electricity, alone, in the dark, cold...and they just kept going without him...smh

[@matthewcollins4773]

Did he have snow on hand to keep his fridge cool? So long as he did, he was probably okay. If not...

[@spartansquid5931]

@@matthewcollins4773 Well, it is winter. I think it's safe to assume...

[@HisNameWasCrazy]

The discussion about cutting breathing out of videos reminded me of the hilarious Absolutely No Words compilations of old wrestling promos with everything but the breathing taken out - hard recommend

[@EnsignRedshirtRicky]

They are not visions, they are future flashes. "Javier Bardem looks like Javier Bardem." - Fringicus the Wise