EFF, ATM head to ConCourt to challenge Phala Phala report decision

[@BONGANIMO]

So we gonna ignore how quick and eloquent the Eff brother is🎉🎉🎉😂😂

[@TzaboChakuze-vp7os]

Top tier attorney

[@goodwillsphiweandTeam]

Kameel Prehmid

[@moletetefo9251]

Eff is the beacon of hope to South African economic freedom.

[@NathanielEdwardBrown]

Hahahaha #regressiveMORONA #IGNORAMUS

[@thembanimgenu190]

How so ? These are capitalists who live in gated residences like all of them

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

Win or lose this EFF lawyer Mr Primier (if my spelling is correct) can argue in court properly....m impressed by his determination and diligence....28/11/2024

[@romeosimelane3284]

Premhid

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

Thanks a lot...28/11/2024

[@politicsandpolitricksrelig6863]

Sufficient does not mean complete, Sufficient means meeting threshold

[@sydneykholoane5359]

@@politicsandpolitricksrelig6863 Attention seeker. Zuma is dismantling it

[@sjaymabaso9391]

Thuma mina will never lose a case. These judges will never touch Cyril. They are going to rule in his favor. GNU judges

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

Haybo Mntungwa....can you plz explain yourself??? 27/11/2024

[@innocentngcobo6072]

Agree, CR17 will never be wrong😂😂😂

[@bulelanimhlatshana8843]

Spot on

[@taomare3890]

Why are some points the eff is making muted?

[@FFNONNONE]

The man said "South Africa Inc" "if I may corporatize it for a moment". Pay attention.

[@manuelmodimola9732]

Who else thinks Prima Facie is a dirty word😢😢😢😢

[@kgotsolehoko5742]

😂 it’s a an adjective meaning at first sight😅

[@victormamosebo5025]

😂😂😂😂😂 Is not English word

[@kgotsolehoko5742]

@ it’s Latin I think😆

[@melusishange3471]

I’m looking forward to EFF vs Zuma on the outstanding court payments

[@Raphaelvilakaziconcertseries]

Justice Madlanga is being political in his analysis of the panel's findings.

[@lungashamase9761]

Nothing new regarding his conduct. I've observed him many times in matters involving politicians.

[@Gobivalentino]

It really doesn't make sense how we are debating whether a president shouldn't be involved in doing business, that office was never respected since 1994

[@SonOfTheSoil834]

The question here is simple !what prescribed parliament to take the “indipendent “ panel report to itself and reject it with numbers through party lines ?if they have a problem with the report wasn’t a proper and fair decision to take it for review by courts?🤷🏾‍♂️but they choosed parliament and worse open ballot voting 🤦‍♂️and it’s worse to see Ngcukaitobi out of them all ,defending such acts of criminality and parliamentarism

[@rakabempho6523]

Hebanna,when Dali defends a FRAUDSTER n r.........t it'sgood n is hailed as the people'sadvocate,woow such hypocrisy

[@khanyakunelisi1810]

That is my very concern

[@SonOfTheSoil834]

@@khanyakunelisi1810 after all I’m glad the case was finally argued ..well debated from both sides.but Concourt need to be careful of the precedent they might set with this case ,both politically,criminally and legally 🤞🏽lol otherwise will have more Justice Therons under protest all the times ,or shocked about decisions previously taken by ConCourt and worse this are bounding to up coming cases 😂

[@happyasouthafrican]

​@@rakabempho6523where does dali fit in here😂🤣 every lawyer stand and protect criminals is the nature of law

[@SonOfTheSoil834]

@@happyasouthafrican lol thanks hey ,I mean like 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@DavidosDivine]

This guy was weeping them

[@Thibhuho]

Stop nonsense Mathopo 🙏🙏

[@mbalenhlembina373]

Hey guys just wondering, what was the role of the chief justice in these proceedings? I noticed that all the other justices were interrogating the submissions of the counsellors except her. She barely spoke, she didn't even ask one question.

[@xman5436]

The Concourt will refer the matter back to the Inquiry panel

[@masiya3802]

They don't have that mandate. Unfortunately, the submissions were not convincing. It will be hard for the court to recreate what happened in that parliament process by even saying the members didn't apply they minds. The evidence before them doesn't prove that case.

[@mlulekimnguni5280]

​@@masiya3802 it does not need to prove anything. It's the NDDP's duty to investigate

[@masiya3802]

​@mlulekimnguni5280 they have to prove that ANC members were wrong by voting to not adopt the panel report in parliament. That's why there was a hearing today. If they can't prove that the ANC members were wrong the case ends there

[@SonOfTheSoil834]

@@xman5436 the best dicision is to refare it to high court for review of that section 89 panel report ..deem unconstitutional and set aside the decision by the National Assembly to vote against the report

[@EricNarson]

​@@masiya3802Hambo bhema insangu. Akuyona indawo yomqondo wakho lena.

[@VeleveleMaphalala-y6q]

True brother Chaos and instability

[@1Africa2day]

EFF will achieve partial success in this case.

[@Adjudicator246]

I observe that the Justices exhibit different tendencies depending on whose interests the Constitutional Court case seeks to protect. I also note that the SCs appear to steer clear of the specifics of the parliamentary screening process involving Mkhwebane and Hlophe impeachment.

[@zenzonxele9509]

Never thought I would live to see iqili lizkhoth emhlane 😢

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

Mpamgazitha, Gubhela Nkungu plz explain what do you mean by "iqili lizkhotha"....27/11/2024

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

Emhlane* 27/11/24

[@khanyakunelisi1810]

The latter question of Justice Masgid is so wrong in law to suggest what has been decided by another administration cannot be changed by another administration as if such could not be applied in another administration...🤔

[@nomarussia5085]

Exactly I concur with you, his utterances sounded absurd to me!!! If as an example Ramaphosa was no longer President it’s like saying the Phala Phala matter cannot be interrogated because it happened when he was president and now he’s no longer President.

[@boetr7014]

His reasoning was absurd. The state after all is forever. Government administrations come and go. Successive administrations act for and on behalf of the state, not themselves.

[@kamogelo74]

Just because some laws were seen as legal in apartheid SA does that mean in the new SA we should have kept those very same laws 😢 Justic Masgid is very wrong

[@happyasouthafrican]

​@@nomarussia5085is a shock indeed

[@happyasouthafrican]

​@@kamogelo74that's his view about this worse as justice of the highest court of the land

[@BeleniYara-ow2zq]

Thank EFF for being in right side of history, second leader stand for genuine history in South Africa 🇿🇦 First leader was Chris Thembisile Hani ❤ Second leader is president Malema ❤❤ EFF ❤ 🇿🇦

[@boetr7014]

This Mathopo must be living in an island. The Anc itself says whoever represents it in parliament will necessarily vote as instructed by it. It is a fact. The reality is most if not all parties instruct their representatives to vote according to the so-called party line. This is not an indictment on the MPs or the Anc. It is standard practice and thus par for cause. This is particularly so where the vote is done in an open forum. Now if the vote was done on a secret ballot then his submission on individual representatives exercising their conscience would hold water. It does not in this instance. It was an open ballot. Not toeing the party line has dire consequences.

[@sipholukhozi9791]

Thanks for this clarity...

[@thabomatsaba4824]

Judge Mathopo u can clearly see this Judge has explicit agenda.

[@MbuleloDyakop-ik7zx]

Those things are not before the court one should hold the view that everyone has to vote according to his or her consciousness as it expected, Because not doing so is acting outside what is expected from them

[@thabomatsaba4824]

​@@MbuleloDyakop-ik7zx Ironically, they vote along party lines and less with their 'consciousness,' and what was read in court in reference to the Min. Mahambehlala proves exactly that. Also, this was quite evident during motions of impeachment against Zuma during his tenure.

[@bonganimncube377]

I turn to agree with mk all these rules and laws were formulated to oppress black people 🤞

[@ashwinmark1849]

What will MK do to change that

[@ashwinmark1849]

Most MK members were former ANC members and they had the opportunity to change that but did not so

[@happyasouthafrican]

​@@ashwinmark1849they failed to do it😂🤣 now they making noise as if they never have opportunity to change rules

[@nmdsa9477]

This is bull horn strategy that EFF and MK is using

[@EricNarson]

Where us the MK here?

[@xolanizekani7880]

But the guy at the back in black looks like a famous actor

[@thabomatsaba4824]

So Judge Mathopo does not see anything wrong with MPs voting across party lines, despite this informing lack of individual discretion and unconstitutionality in certain instances.

[@ronnymashaba1189]

him and Madlanga are politicians, observe them in every case they sit

[@sammymanganya9920]

@7:50:00 Rogers J on the money. And SC trying to admonish a judge on a joke made facetiously because its a matter of public importance when the questions are legitimate has a sour taste.

[@mbalenhlembina373]

Hey guys those who work as law professionals, can you please explain why those people( lawyers not sure) keep making a bow when coming in and out of court.

[@BennyNtlai]

Justice Theron, Justice Collopen and Roger seems to replace the space of Justice Jafta that was so prominent in the jurisprudence of the Constitutional Court. I am sure SC Thembela is relief with his absence. He has a bad case before him. This case is bad man. But SC are tested on how they handle a case where they do not have facts in their favour and over arching law in their favour. He over whelmed Zuma now he has to defend the ANC and is seems like these case shall make him unpopular. Cause the current ANC does not appreciate the delicacy of the broad church. To manage Zion, Methodist, Islam in one is not a role that can be delegated to markets man. It is a political role that need political prudence. Mbalula seems not to appreciate such responsibility.

[@simbongilematola2540]

Does the panel have legal investigators with authorities to dig and bring forward sufficient evidence?

[@happyasouthafrican]

the panel was task to find if the president has a case to answer

[@MoketeRAKOTSOANA]

​@@happyasouthafricanfrom Adv Nxukaitobi in his debate with Judge Roger's, he contended that the panel had to find if from the prima facie evidence could there be sufficient evidence for president have a case to answer and that the panel did not do what it was supposed to do. And in this very same argument Judge Roger's highlighted the panel's discomfort of being limited to find sufficient evidence without being empowered to get to it, i.t.o of being confined to information only brought to it. Judge Rogers further made clear processes and level of responsibility regarding prima facie evidence (the Speaker's level for referring the matter) as opposed to sufficient evidence (the Panel's level). Now my question is, what could make prima facie evidence sufficient enough to say that more conclusive evidence can be sought to see if the president is to be impeached. How sifficient should it have been to be taken to higher step (Impeachment committee) to be further investigated and on the basis of that investigated evidence then concluded upon. The way Judge Rogers depicted 1) the common sense of not taking such huge amount of money to the bank, 2) the secrecy of dealing with the crime of theft of such money to such as an extent that the Prevention of Corruption Activities piece of legislation has been contravened; 3) mystery of the source of money who concluded a transaction and left without the buffaloes that the panel had to come to general understanding that the money was illicit. To you and me, we would say these factors make the whole issue suspicious. What I don't understand about parliament, ANC majority parliamentarians, what rationality supposed to have applied to say let's give committee to address the public suspicion around these factors??? Please help me fill these loose ends!?!?

[@ronnymashaba1189]

I am worried by certain Judges, sounds like they band aid the Respondent's case

[@EmpowerIzweSANPC]

Do we have enough advocates who are able to argue in the constitutional court?

[@1Africa2day]

We're you unimpressed by the advocates that argued here or you tired of seeing same advocates arguing matters?

[@mfundimkhize3137]

Plenty.

[@EmpowerIzweSANPC]

@@1Africa2day i was unimplressed by judges and those lawyers i think we needed a judge as charismatic as Nqukaitobi or Mogoeng Mogoeng. The Constitutional Court justices no longer posses the intellectual superoprity when faces by advocates such as Nqukaitobi. You can see they are intimidated by him. He repremands them

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

Where is Adv D Mpofu SC.....he would have shown them flames....26/11/2024

[@MondeRaseobi-s4v]

Whoo shame Mpofu that Dundee head😂

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

What is "Dundee Head"??? 27/11/2024

[@MpumeleloNgidi]

sometimes reputation mislead and compromise the overall matter, judging the ADV THEMBEKA

[@NQWENACOMMUNICATIONs]

😊

[@wicknessrooifontein3933]

The panel was aware that other Constitutional institutions had to investigate this. The panel ToR was limited deliberately in order to allow these institutions to do what they were mandated to do. Parliament can't be the police,npa and the judge

[@Thibhuho]

I think we need to give to Justice Mathopo,he gave this boy tough time 😂😂.there was where he kept quite a bit of

[@melusishange3471]

The challenge with this case, the panel did not investigate the matter further to get sufficient info on the matter to decide on the basis of evidence..

[@Adjudicator246]

*"As pure as the driven snow"* refers to moral purity or innocence, while *"as white as the driven snow'"* describes physical cleanliness or brightness, highlighting the distinction between ethical virtue and visual appearance. I think Katz would have been right to us "white" rather than "pure," as it is extremely difficult to associate Ramaphosa with purity and innocence.

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

The rate of litigation is very high in RSA as from 2014....its the 10th yr now ... meaning the lawyers are raking in millions....and its high profile cases...and by the look of things the next 10yrs will be the same especially if Adv Shamila Bathoi grts off from starting blocks and take ON the case referred to her by Zondo Commission...1/12/2024

[@laantsino1394]

2 hours in this and I see EFF losing this case. Most of the judges had similar contentions. 1. Delay 2. Prima facie vs Sufficient 3. Separation of power

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

Justice R Mathopo when he engages a counsel he is always clear as water....28/11/2024

[@ronnymashaba1189]

sounds to me like he is always fixing the respondents case

[@khanyakunelisi1810]

Justice Theron likes dealing with jurisdiction, to it does seem the justices does allocations of dealing the matter comes before the court in compartments...🤣🤣🤣

[@nzwakele]

Ive also noticed that

[@NathanielEdwardBrown]

#atm #eff #mk #aljoma #anc...... The list goes on & on & on.... ALL OF THE SAME #STUPID #IGNORAMUS IGNORANCE KNOWS NO DEPTH.....

[@TMT...000-e4v]

Malema just have to concentrate on finding out why his senior members of his party resighed and why his party is dying every day

[@koolerkool8008]

The panel mandate was to make the recommendations but it was up to parliament to move forward to either adopt or reject the report.Parliament instituted the motion to vote for and against and EFF and ATM got defeated. And now Zungula and Julius want to overturn the same process they participated in.Who does that? There's no case, beside the concourt is even not the right place before exhausting the lower courts

[@wally86_]

Parliament also has a mandate to uphold the law and by effectively suppressing a report which says that the matter requires further ventilation as the law allows, they are in fact failing in that duty.

[@koolerkool8008]

@wally86_ Yes, parliament has the mandate to hold the executive accountable based on their own determination and discretion.

[@gudamwandla]

The Concourt can't interfere with the Parliamentary process and cannot alter decision of the National Assembly

[@KennyRambau]

Malema we need service o courts, s africans use rands 0 dollars is his own..yours is in nkandla...unite eff against mkp plse other wise zuma will destroy u

[@Tman501]

If it wasn't for the delay the EFF took to bring this case to the courts, this case would have been sent back to Parliament. But because of the delay by the EFF, i think the court will rule in Ramaphosa's favor.

[@Fovsmhok]

The merit of this case can not be disqualified on debate of time because this is not an ordinary case this is the president if he committed crime then it is not acceptable at all who will accept to go to court after Ramaphosa refuse to do so me I will refuse and say Ramaphosa first

[@Tman501]

@Fovsmhok Lol I understand your point but remember you're not the President, if it was you with the $580 000 you'll be serving 25yrs in prison.

[@keorapetse_mo178]

@Fovsmhok The case WILL be disqualified on the grounds of time because the 14-month delay suggests political opportunism. The applicant waited for a new Parliament with fewer ANC seats to push the case. The law should not be used for political advantage rather to ensure justice, not manipulate the system based on changing political dynamics

[@kamogelo74]

@@keorapetse_mo178does this mean Ramaphosa only won because people voted according to party lines not what’s legal and what’s not

[@keorapetse_mo178]

⁠@@kamogelo74that’s what the applicants submitted.

[@sydneykholoane5359]

Who pays legal costs for these small parties? Membership fees cannot be abused by political leaders as they push their personal agenda

[@EricNarson]

What is their "personal agenda" here?

[@MapulaMakokoana-y4k]

@Sydney mafias are paying for all political parties big or small to achieve their goals😂😂

[@giditheophillousazollar5278]

​@EricNarson as we wait for the answer, cause I'm asking myself the same question

[@EricNarson]

​@@giditheophillousazollar5278We are unlikely to get any answer here. This is just Ramaphosa's fan he defending him blindly.

[@GabMaboe-rg2tv]

Your point is?

[@LwandileNduku]

1:25:10

[@khanyakunelisi1810]

Was there any review of this panel report to begin with and if not then what would be point of challenging the fact that the panel had established the prima facia evidence as found by the panel....or is this used to review such report?

[@happyasouthafrican]

cyril said he is going to take it on review he wrong a public letter about that.later after majority voted not to consider the report he wrote another letter saying he is not going to take it on review anymore.that's when eff stepped in

[@wicknessrooifontein3933]

Ngcukayitobi seems a bit off with judge Rodgers who want give new meaning to the factual matters.

[@innocentngcobo6072]

Justice Madlanga??????? This is unbelievable, your questions😂😂

[@MakhaolaNdebele-p9q]

I wonder why is Justice Rogers calling President Ramaphosa Ramafosa?

[@sisindiseludwemrevnohashe6167]

I think how Justice Rogers refers to President Ramaphosa is nothing short of unacceptable...i mean for a con-court Judge it's very ignorant

[@joziboy8673]

Ncukatobi must pick his cases better he looks like an idiot here, Justice Rodgers has him by the balls

[@blessinggwacela4993]

EFF is sent by MK

[@happyasouthafrican]

u sick mad and crazy

[@gailsibiya6304]

You are stupid

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

When one argues and the other lawyer (like one sitting on the left of the EFF counsel ...a man with glasses) looks at your face in a consistent manner like that it' causes some discomfort (speaking for myself)...26/11/2024

[@nhlanganiphontekati17]

He is a Junior Counsel, he must always look at him to correct spelling and give notes and authorities fast

[@wmijava]

The National Assembly is a grouping of different individual's with different backgrounds and motives, to expect these individual's to act like a single unified body is simply naive.

[@happyasouthafrican]

u are crazy they all undress their individuals wear a uniform of one thing called anc not individual

[@BennyNtlai]

@Vusi Biyela Judge Mathobo he was not cautious with his articulation and the debate. If he can mirror his debate with Collepon he is unfortunately found wanting. And the Justice says that is not what he said. Lol, he does not even based this finding of facts on the papers place before him. Aish it seems as if he was following this case in the media. And he brings the bias of the media in Court. I can not wait for this judgement and see majority and minority judgement if any. But Justice Mathopo performance and the line of questioning was indeed disappointing. Adv. Katz assisted this case he was very basic and his argument where almost flawless. The lawyer of EFF had an attorney approach, advocacy is about identifying one strong point build on that syrong point and do not deviate. cases are lost and won on facts and the legal principle. I have learned a lot from Kartz. I think judge Mathopo realised that he will come second best if he pushed back on him. That skill comes from experience. As for drugs people must not bring allegations without evidence lol!!!!!

[@Jnr619]

It's going down

[@sebolaiclement1377]

GNU Imperialists stereo typed NPA 👉🚮🚮🚮🚮

[@0728505336]

Fighters I don't see Dr ..............

[@happyasouthafrican]

so y is it our prblm

[@simphiwempofana5771]

i am worried malema

[@happyasouthafrican]

is ur problem bcos he never ask u to, u must worry about urself not other ppl mr busy body

[@buchulefulanisi1577]

Ngcukaitobi SC does not seem himself here

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

I agree with you Buchule...28/11/2024

[@wonderdila3307]

Judge Mathopo is the weakest link, the man is a President’s man, hayi angeke😂😂😂😂

[@menzidlamini3434]

😂Can Justice Rodgers or Theron take over that Senzo Meyiwa case 😏

[@Phomieyy]

MHHHHH🥲🥲🥲

[@Greatness528-d5]

Mslema trying to be next president by all means. The guy has zero knowledge of economics but think he can be the president of the country. He wants SA to be like Mugabe times in Zimbabwe

[@Tman501]

I'm not arguing your "views" but wouldn't it be fair if everyone in this country including the President should face the law as equal as everyone??

[@AugustineKasivila]

All these nice words and jargon can be said in the court the bottom line is, is it legal to do transactions in foreign currency and declare it. There is no evidence that needs to be sort here as Adv Ngcukaitobi is arguing. There are people arrested. If there is no evidence of money stolen then those guys arrested must be released. Ramaphosa committed a crime and he is using his powers and money to cover this up. But trust me this is not gonna end well. There is a court which is more powerful than the constitutional Court, it is the People. The people will rise one day and say enough is enough.

[@bongumusamanqele154]

Zuma was a better president than your learnered favorites. Malema can do better than your corrupt Ramaphosa.

[@elizabethandrsu369]

Next President can only be the Deputy/Vice President like the next principal of a school could only a be aVice principal not unless there are certain reasons.As you say maybe Malema l don't think so unless is the ANC plans.Why Malema.there is also Lamola there are a lot in that ANC . Hungry fore a position doesn't make any sense.

[@VhuyaniMudau]

after this one l think is vbs scandal

[@vusikhawula5686]

This lawyer bodies all the judges

[@mathematicsclinic1691]

Prima facie?

[@ponkyzw]

😂 ❤❤❤😊😊wap Ap😊❤😊❤😊aq to ll😊

[@tshepokhafolas5359]

If President Ramaphosa removed from office. I see chaos😢 Protect him

[@bongumusamanqele154]

Nonsense

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

Huge chaos indeed....26/11/2024

[@innocentngcobo6072]

Lol😂😂, then let him stay there forever to avoid chaos😂😂😂

[@tshepokhafolas5359]

@@innocentngcobo6072 🤣😂🤣 Let him finish his term . . .

[@Letsoalo_Maupa]

Stop nyaope or comment under influence of toxic substances

[@sabelonkosi3412]

Mathobi is a politician , not sure really how he got to the constitutional court .

[@lugisanimufamadi]

MALEMA WANTS POWER THROUGH THE BACKDOOR

[@happyasouthafrican]

u are mad u said something with zuma so votsek

[@ndodangcobo5131]

EFF may have deliberately chosen a weak lawyer just to be see to dealing with Phala Phala.

[@ethindwa]

Weak how? I thought he was well prepared with his team... he stayed on matters that counted...

[@ndodangcobo5131]

@@ethindwa he crumbled under questioning when his submission was tested.

[@vumbhonishandlale46]

@@ndodangcobo5131😂

[@wally86_]

If I may ask. What qualifies to make such an assessment?

[@Letsoalo_Maupa]

@@ndodangcobo5131you can’t be a parent to anyone with a fly mindset

[@MrSihle1]

It's easy to litigate when you have endless supply of cash from illicit sale of cigarette proceeds