How to Save English Club Rugby...Copy France!

Why are we choosing between the status quo OR ring-fencing. The RFU are rumoured to be about to sign off ring-fencing for a further 4 years. Why, when there is a brilliant alternative system in operation already working brilliantly in a neighbouring country? Let me explain why the French system could work for everyone. Share, like and comment.

[@blaisellorca72]

Tout à fait d'accord. Nous avons tous besoin de clubs britanniques forts et d'une équipe nationale anglaise ( mais aussi d'une équipe galloise ) fortes. Si le dernier Angleterre - France restera dans l'Histoire, c'est dans les matches les plus serrés et disputés que notre sport grandit. Pour cela toutes les nations doivent se hisser vers le haut.

[@MisterPoppy-sc1sj]

Pas forcément, il n' y a pas que les anglais

[@sid9074]

Very well reasoned argument. The problem is the Premiership is run by the current stakeholders, so they do whatever they can to protect themselves. The RFU is run by people from the same few teams and even a team like Exeter was not seen as the real deal until last year because they are not part of that oligarchy. Let's hope that Exeter and Bristol (who were both in the Championship 10 years ago) compete in this years final and give some hope to Championship teams and eventually it HAS to change, or else we will end up with a stale league like the pro14...

[@mikegray8776]

The algorithm has just directed this post my way, Tim - 2 years on!! Sadly, the situation now is actually significantly worse in England than it was then ….. and significantly stronger in France than when you first recorded this. This speaks volumes for the sense of your argument. Ultimately the difference is that in France, Rugby is administered by professional BUSINESS types, amidst a national sporting picture no less diverse and challenging than our own. English Rugby is administered by status-conscious amateur-minded “thoroughly good chaps” who know their way around an impressive Wine List - but have no clue about dynamic business promotion. (I would specifically exclude a number of impressively business-like club owners/chairmen who inject enormous energy and funding into the game and the clubs they adore - but they are constantly overwhelmed and submerged by the sheer weight of incompetent, blinkered and complacent amateurism (and nepotism) at large in both the RFU and especially the Gallagher Prem.) Change has to come FROM THE TOP - without the right people, you cannot put in place the right structures - and without the right mindset you can neither recruit nor retain the right character of leaders. Even putting French Rugby aside, could even a fantasist ever have imagined that the English FA could ever achieved what the new broom of the EPL achieved in football? ….. Mediocre product languishing well below La Liga, Serie A, the Bundesliga, and many others, transformed into the world-leading football product by some distance! We have to learn from the EPL, the TOP14, the NFL, the NRL that these successes do not just arrive - they have to be DRIVEN by men of vision, flair, and imagination. And until we do, English Rugby will drift further and further off the pace set by the French, the Irish - and increasingly the Japanese and the Italians. We have an enthusiastic and loyal “market” for Rugby Union in this country, but we consistently sell it short with half-arsed poorly thought-through appointments, direction, and ambition. How can we continue to squander such a sporting and commercial opportunity?

[@lenahic]

great video. Be careful mate : JIFF means "Joueur Issu de la Formation Française" : player trained in France. Which is different from "French player". For instance, we have a lot of georgian or fidjian rugby players considered as JIFF.

[@williamnavarro1006]

An there are French players that learnt their rugby abroad and who consequently are not considered JIFF.

[@MisterPoppy-sc1sj]

Oui beaucoup trop et on va le payer à terme

[@peteroprey1691]

This was great, they should do a similar wider view analysis of the other rugby nations. Like how Irelands system compares Wales.

[@claudemillee7762]

How refreshing to hear an Englishman admire the French rugby system, they are so anti France and anti top 14 on british TV especailly BT Sport. It is no wonder they are not talking of going more along the lines of the French model. They are too proud to admit that the French system is superior.

[@davidpullen4564]

Really enjoyed this Tim, and as always an impassioned view which in my heart I totally agree with. My head however thinks this is rather more the case of horse and stable door! I agree that the premiership is already a ringfenced league, and has been for at least the past 5 years and probably longer. With the parachute payments, shareholdings, and the lack of Jeopardy with the cancellation of the Championship playoffs (which caused havoc with Bristol and Worcs in the past), the ability for any club outside of the 13 shareholders breaking in, would require an owner with extremely deep pockets to “buy” his way into the “premiership club”. Ideally we would turn back time and have a clear plan by the RFU which could have used its vast reserves (in the past) to create the structure where the Championship could have become the equivalent of Pro2. My only other concern (and maybe this was RFU’s thoughts in the past), is England is not the same as France. I believe France is more unique than you think. Just my thoughts, but I think 3 things make rugby in France more geared to the deeper professional penetration than here in England: 1. Football. Although the biggest sport in France, its dominance over all other sports is not comparable to the English system. France only has 2 professional and 1 semi-professional leagues, below that the system is amateur. Although football spread to all corners of France it could be argued that in large parts of South of France rugby remained on a par or even surpasses football. In England there are areas, the South west in particular(and pockets within them) where rugby is big. I’m from Gloucestershire and as you are aware rugby is a religion here, but I would argue Football is still far bigger than rugby in the biggest city in the region (Bristol). With football so dominant and professional leagues running far deeper than in France, the share of fans and therefore TV money must be far more unbalanced than in France. From what I’ve read Top14 matches have viewing figures up to 10* that of Premiership games! I’m sure that BT, Sky or another party would pay keenly for those type of figures. 2. The North and Rugby league. The simple fact is that rugby league is far more popular in England than in France. In your part of the world RL is more prevalent and popular than RU. Add in the total dominance of football in the north and you have a saturated market. Even Sale at its height of success struggles in the region. 3. Regional/Govt support. The localised power and spending down to town level, has allowed local government in France to really support their sports team. A vast majority of the stadiums/infrastructure is from local government funds and this infrastructure and joined up planning between private ownership and the local government means teams can grow more akin to an Exeter. In summary I wish that England had taken a different path, but just don’t see under any circumstances how things are going to change. The owners have invested (lost) far to much to allow their investments to be shared. It would take all the wealth of the RFU to go all in on a really professional Championship and that would be at a detriment to the local game.

[@EggchasersRugby]

I broadly agree with much of this. My point wasnt to blindly do exactly what France has done. But more to highlight that the supposed choice is one that the owners of the 13 clubs have constructed and not one which is real. As we are or pull up the ladder. Until it became so skewed against clubs aspiring Nottingham, Pirates and Plymouth have been sides who were putting groundwork in place to try for the top table. The 'cartel' like system sent those dreams packing because, as you say, only a Steve Landowne can make that a reality. BUT crucially, if you have the odds not so fixed for the casino you incentivise players to come and roll the dice. Precisely what has happened in France. There's enough spread of population without a rugby focal point that I feel it's feasible. It's pure luck, not merit, that Newcastle and Worcester are in the 13 and not Nottingham or Pirates, and that just feels unjust...fairness is pretty much my core principle.

[@kevinhigginson9340]

​@@EggchasersRugby I know I am late to this video, but I think we need franchises and a new pro set up, as the French set up would not suit us, due to the success of football. 1) RFU take ownership of academies up to U20, in partnership with Universities and colleges. 2) split the game into 3 tiers, Pro, Development and community. 3) start a new pro league with 12 franchises, aiming for expansion to 16 in future, with consortiums bidding for them. 4) strict salary cap and limits on squad sizes. This new league should be the shop window, while clubs focus on development of both talent and playing numbers.

[@edouardmontfort7816]

Asking the right questions ! The JIFF system has been fundamental. Another key parameter in the relative french rugby success now is the headcoach of the national team. Galthié took us out of the middle age. There has been a lot of work around data analysis, the psychology of the players, an effort to hire the best people for the every compartment of the game (a former international ref for the discipline, Shaun Edwards for the defense, an NFL physical coach for the fitness, etc). Galthié has been pretty much acting like the CEO of the company XV de france. Cheers mate. No doubt england will be back soon.

[@SB-th8uc]

This video is golden. Sums my views up entirely. Well done.

[@wjs7506]

Cracking video Cocker. Truths hurt, I'm tired of our product

[@pleasegivebackmydumplings7726]

Oakland A's jersey. Nice Moneyball reference.

[@jamesfbowes]

Make it fair, keep things simple particularly the TV deal and I really like the rule of 16 qualified French players. Nice suggestion.

[@jean-michel.a]

JIFF players are not necessarily of French nationality, they came out of the academy. Of course, most of them are French, but this is not the relevant criteria.

[@Pos9910]

Respect for speaking out against this ringfenced nonsense Tim. Genuinely frustrating how lacking in ideas those at the top in rugby are

[@chabirandjeanmarc7032]

you recorded that 2 years ago and what happenning during this time 3 England teams Wasps, Worcester and now London Irish have gone bankrupt. The both English team (the main and u20) finish 4th in the 6 nations (with big defeat vs france )

[@Ellinillard]

Very interesting video : interesting addition : 20 years ago, a bunch of French football owners, 5 or 6 of them I think, wanted to do exactly that with TV rights. « We generate the audience and the Tv rights, why should we share them ? ». It was named Club Europe, and the idea was shot down bu the football federation. Thank god they got this right.

[@Taraxacum10]

How did I not know that promoted clubs only get 1/3 budget - that's ludicrous!!

[@thecuttingsark5094]

The French, for all their creativity, normally make well balanced and centrally run organisations so this shouldn’t come as a huge surprise. England on the other hand has always been a mess with bits bolted on to deal with immediate problems.

[@jorgetadeunago]

Population are almost irrelevant you need to consider cultural issues. English rugby have a social class undertones. rugby , cricket, hockey, rowing are not taught in all schools. In France Rugby was mostly a south culture and was connected to farmers villages so it is “people thing” not a “posh school stuff” and the people are generally more enthusiastic. It has kept that vibe. Now the main point is the French philosophy of the game which is taught in rugby school from very young- “we play the players not the spaces” which bring flair, passion and beautiful game so the kids wants to “play beautiful” - no one there gives a frog about anything but the beauty of the game. it is not only 2 very different rugby cultures it is barely the same sport That is why for the sake of whatever you choose to call Rugby England has to build something within its own rugby culture that appeals to more kids from all background … so we don’t have to travel to Dublin to be entertained 🤙

[@kurtz7221]

Spot on

[@Josian-ps7fb]

😀 "no one there gives a frog about anything but..."... bien joué!🐸👍

[@MadMarchTaffy]

Great analysis - what is the point of having academies if you then bring in a load of Saffas or Fijians?

[@lebowski_dude]

I think this video is a great complement to the one you made about the lack of choices at centre for England among the premiership clubs. I'm sure the elite level guys in England are doing ok for themselves, but you really should be able to make a decent living as a 2nd division player - from what I understand many of the player are semi-pro. Without a solid testing ground, how do you identify the players who can make it to the next level?

[@kenrehill8775]

Two years later, it’s a 10 club league and looking like a disaster.

[@samuelmidzi8240]

Broadcasting rights and pay wall... primer league soccer is able to be watched from do many places

[@renaud3600]

So true

[@jordiportes9154]

Très bon raisonnement. Même si les deux rugby de clubs sont différents. Je pense qu'en France il y a aussi la concurrence du football qui est moins forte. Une ville, une région préfère avoir un grand club de rugby en Top 14 qu'une équipe de football en deuxième division. Il faut reconnaître que de nombreux clubs ici marchent bien parce qu'ils sont dopés à l'argent public : les mairies, les départements et même les régions mettent beaucoup d'argent dans les clubs pro. Une petite erreur concernant la règle des JIFF, il doit y avoir une moyenne de 16 joueurs issus de la formation française mais pas nécessairement sélectionnables pour le XV de France. Ainsi de nombreux JIFF jouent pour une sélection étrangère mais ont été formés en France.

[@eviljon721]

As much as it pains me to say it, the French system is better..... 🤢. Relegation and promotion is fundamental to competitive sport and means there is no pointless games at the bottom of the table (as there was last year). The whole league is more exciting with jeopardy in it but having a 2nd division that is more meaningful - who wouldn’t be on board!

[@thomasdujardin1602]

Merci

[@ericguillerm5152]

Pouquoi pas a uk league in two division 12 English, three or four welsh, two Scot’s and four Irish. With three going down and three coming up every year with passionate fans

[@B1gC4st]

Got 12 club owners willing to buy shares in PRL ? It's not a parachute payment, it's a dividend from the shares they OWN.

[@EggchasersRugby]

Yep. Which makes it a ring-fenced league already, by another name. The French system would require some long term thinking and a roll of the dice. I think the risk would pay off big time.

[@B1gC4st]

@@EggchasersRugby Except that the Pro D2 was the way old Federale 1, they demonstrated value to LNR, then LNR founded Pro D2 and absorbed the clubs. The Championship clubs haven't demonstrated commercial value to the PRL. Nor has the Championship demonstrated any kind of stability. This is about business owners doing their job, not charity, sadly.

[@SB-th8uc]

@@B1gC4st The Championship was never given any chance to demonstrate any commercial value. When the clubs instigated their own plans to develop new revenue streams they were slapped back into line by Twickenham. There are many instances which I can give detailed examples of. English club rugby is a fix, a corporate stranglehold of 13 clubs who have climbed on the shoulders of 1800 other clubs and expect privileges whilst not even turning a profit (bar Exeter).

[@EggchasersRugby]

@@B1gC4st did you watch the video? It explains WHY the Championship (versus Pro D2) has been proactively held back from development. If the last 25 years had been a true meritocracy, not a cartel, the gap would be far narrower, and the product more valuable overall, in my opinion.

[@B1gC4st]

@@EggchasersRugby I watched the video and I explained why the Championship isn't considered an asset. Those clubs have failed to demonstrate both commercial and developmental value to the PRL. Most of them have grounda unfit for pro outfits, much less TV. How players get treated when they get injured? Forget about it. The Championship clubs are not keeping pace with the requirements of professional rugby. The PRL sets the minimum entry, the only club in the Championship that meets the minimum entry aside from their Salary Cap punishment is Saracens. The clubs that became Pro D2 didn't let themselves get left behind. They made themselves a success. There is choice in this. Also blaming the RFU for contractually supporting the Premiership as a reason for the Championship failing doesn't reflect the purpose of that agreement. That agreement is about the RFU having unlimited access top the top players for the National team. "Oh. Meaningful game this weekend? Sorry Eddie has a camp in Portugal and you agree to let the boys go 😐". It isn't a subsidy. Now we could get into it about that being good business. It isn't. The RFU should be supporting University Rugby and pushing a more American development model to widen the base of talent rather than promoting a constricted developmental model of academies. Rugby isn't Soccer in a whole lot of ways, it lacks capitol across the game.

[@alanb9443]

Since the championship don’t have a tv deal, why don’t they just give the filming rights free to bbc or itv…. Ur not getting any cash for it anyway, even if they only show one game a month stil better than nothing.

[@patanouketgersiflet9486]

How true does that sound 2 years later? How many english clubs have gone belly up, not mentioning the Saracens scheme ? 2, 3 and counting? 2 years later, La Rochelle have won the European Cup back to back, and the French U20 have won the world cup for the 3rd straight time, scoring 50 points against the Irish in the final.

[@amjbzx7]

Thanks Tim. It kinda proves English rugby is run by a bunch of people with no vision or long term strategy and is very much a self serving clique. I think most fans knew it anyway... It would be interesting to get your employers view of what they would commit to for a two league, 4 year contract a la France.

[@oldmanwillyboy2786]

The greed, avarice and utter arrogance of the English Club owners/boards is so deeply entrenched that the RFU will never be able to put such a common sense and fair system in place! The owners have all the power and would probably just break away and form their own league. They care as little about the real fans as the Glazers etc.in soccer!

[@Soltain6]

Football not soccer

[@chrisr5499]

RFU have always been arrogant as just look at what happened with the great split of 1895

[@Tony-mu5lc]

England population is 56 millions actually.

[@agyemanboaten4385]

Unfairness in sports in England

[@robsherrington8910]

Oakland As top?

[@EggchasersRugby]

Yep. Brings out the colour of my eyes 🤪

[@robsherrington8910]

Gotta love a bit of moneyball

[@Josian-ps7fb]

We French people should copyright this system, then!😉

[@geotruthnz7013]

New Zealand Rugby was much more fanatically followed by the locals back in the day that we had provincial teams as our top level instead of regional teams that we now have. Devaluing the traditionally teams was the worst thing NZ ever did to the grass roots of the game and it shows with continued lower interest in the game. With this said don't copy NZ.

[@knoll9812]

English are not watching Rugby. Not much growth in audience for premiership. This is reflected in 36m in tv rights which is nothing Having a decent 2nd Division would appeal to a larger geographical area . Problem is they have squandered the money. Two years ago only England and france had money. Now it is only France. Attracting more viewers needs mor More than the same handful of teams playing eCh other. The problem is thatthey are starty grom a period of weakness. They need to share some of the money eith the second division. Maybe s d Maybe contribution to the top top six so that teMs coming up are competitive.not fIr but hard decisions to ne made. This wolymean 26 reasonable teMs in England instead of 10. In addition addition England need to accept low expectations for a few years and live within budget. This eill mean players going abroad but that is another hard decision.16 instead of 10

[@knoll9812]

Greedy teams want more of the cake.however the cake us getting smaller each year. At this rate 8 teams in a few years with less tv money. There is no reason for a sponsor to financially back a team outside the premier as dice are loaded. Note that the amounts are small. A few million would make a championship team competitive but would be wasted if no decent chance at getting to the premiy and staying there.

[@DM-rp9ik]

French clubs haven't won the ECC for 5 or six years and to call the last French team that won it French is a serious stretch of the imagination. No Six nations since 2010

[@oldmanwillyboy2786]

That's the sort of argument the English club owners would use! He's not talking about 5 or10yrs ago! The French system wasn't in place then. It's only coming to fruition now! And of the English system clubs that won the ERC back then, how many in their squads were English?

[@olivierarnaud-freaud6369]

On the one hand France might also owe some of its success to its current golden generation and to a bunch on rich, sun-hungry millionaires… On the other hand it’s system seems structurally smarter - based on sound competition and not on ring fencing. Free competition is a rather English concept, though, so there shouldn’t be any barrier for England to move this way… Although I have to say it is pleasant to keep EPCR trophies 🏆 on this side of the channel ;-)

[@benc-b248]

This is ageing well ! Hahaha

[@CptFoupoudav]

just posting a message so you remember that dumb comment you posted.

[@ragnarlothbrok7880]

Funny to watch this comment now

[@MaryHarry-hh4pq]

Copy the Irish their skill dummy's challenges Irish have beaten in less 2years France 2times all blacks 2times.if Irish are in firm watch them they are well better than England France copy them