Elden Ring - They're not the same

[@ZullietheWitch]

Uploaded the video a little late because of rendering issues, but hopefully that doesn't affect the performance too much. The list of IDs shown at 00:28 isn't exhaustive, there are quite a few more repeats than that, but trying to fit them all in would've needed a nearly illegibly small font size.

[@cowhale2488]

I find it crazy that Fromsoft kept putting effort into making small different enemy variants even if no one (not even me) are going to notice them. I was counting every single new variant and still missed the different design for the living jars. I find it crazy that anyone would say this game is lacking in enemy variety since there are like 300 different enemies, each with a lot of variations, ranging from small cosmetic changes to new attacks.

[@johnang221]

Can we get a video talking about the loyal wolf companions of emperians? Cause we only have Miquella's, Ranni's, and Marika's wolf, but we don't see Malenia's wolf.

[@cowhale2488]

@@johnang221 I was wondering about that. Maybe Torrent is also a shadowbound beast? Or the winged serpents of Messmer? The game never said that an empyrean's shadow has to be a wolf

[@jahrfuhlnehm]

​@@johnang221Wait, what was Miquella's wolf companion again?

[@johnang221]

@@jahrfuhlnehm The dogs you get from Ranni I presume

[@JuanCarlosE731]

I was not prepared for miquella in the cocoon lmao

[@Patrik1st]

👁👁 that is because lore hunters are under Miquella's spell. Mohgwyn is in the cocoon. Miquella used him to get to the Scadulands and divest his body there. The lore hunters have been bitten by the sweet touch of "Kindly" Miquella.

[@AnmarBatarfi]

​@@Patrik1stwhat

[@AETERNA-PASSIO]

@@Patrik1st take your meds

[@mr.manguyfellow]

@@Patrik1st Preach!!!

[@Blossemfall]

That makes me think of the dang meme. "Miquella of the Cocoon what is your wisdom?"

[@RLToughGuy]

Why is Miquella peering out of the cocoon so unsettling?

[@NDenizen]

He's about to ask if you have games on your phone

[@BasicallyBaconSandvichIV]

He touched Sasha.

[@BurningDogFace]

Because usually, he only does it when you're not looking directly at him.

[@mark0183]

Remind me of that scene of the smiling naked man in hereditary

[@A.D.I.D.A.S-916]

@@mark0183Love that movie so much

[@GaucheEtVeule]

Base game kindred of rot: no please Base game living jars: hey Alexander's friends! SotE kindred of rot: happy forever (+ shiny version) SotE living jars: HELL NO

[@Elavieate]

Not shiny, more like regional variant

[@eglewether5523]

I hate tomato critters with my whole heart

[@cainhurst7546]

I like to think the SotE kindreds of rot are happier cuz they are embraced by Romina, while malenia rejects the base game ones

[@stevenneiman1554]

You must have found that change rather jarring.

[@supremeclamitas5053]

​@@stevenneiman1554 Goddammit

[@TheWarmachine375]

*thumbnail* "PREPARE FOR TROUBLE!" "AND MAKE IT DOUBLE!"

[@keeganstormblade5456]

"To protect the world from devastation!" "To unite all peoples within our nation!"

[@Dr_Mel]

"You're gonna have two copies of the ulcerated tree spirit on your harddrive and you're gonna like it." -george r r martin

[@Neptunequeen42]

Games in 2001: fuck, we can't fit the rest of this character sprite on the game cartridge! make her shorter to save kilobytes! Change how these characters talk so there's less text to store! games in 2024: let's just duplicate the whole enemy roster for easier development. they're not gonna sweat an extra gig in their monthly patch updates (not a value judgement on either one, just fascinating to see how things have changed so much)

[@fireradfieritis8953]

That first example is based on Ace Attorney, isn't it? Lol.

[@Condorian_]

Some games in 2024 abuse this, unfortunately. Looking at you, Call of Duty and NBA 2K

[@EuclideanAl]

1:57 is a great shot of the Land of Shadows, gives a great idea of just how big the DLC was.

[@vera39440]

The world building is their best ever, in my opinion. One view that struck me in particular was looking down at the world from Rauh Ruins where you fight the second divine lion boss. Just a handful of structures poking up through the CLOUDS across a massive landscape that you literally crossed on foot. Additionally, Elden Ring is a game where every view off a cliffside is wallpaper material. Every time you turn 90 degrees at a scenic point it's like a painting you'd see in a gallery somewhere. They have some of, if not the, best video game artists on the planet. Though I'm sure the budget helps. That's at least as far as the natural stuff goes. The enemies are hit or miss lol some wonky dudes out there

[@Rexperto6454]

Not really IMO. You can see much more of the map from that tower near the Dragon Pit entrance and the crazy thing is that you still only see a fraction of the whole thing from there

[@screech5212]

Remember michelle Zaki said the DLC would be the size of Limgrave. Classic Michelle.

[@EuclideanAl]

@@Rexperto6454 That doesn't ring a bell... I'll have to check that out later.

[@loadingnewads]

2:41 leaving the base game’s Patch cycle😂 Patches says no

[@Epsonea_482]

Thumbnail: We do a little trollin’

[@eviltoad746]

Esponea I miss your shorts 😔

[@Gorvak]

Miquella inside the egg was an image i wasn't expecting...And it is truly spooky

[@KidsWreckMovies]

If zullie has no fans I am dead

[@crosscutcobra]

🗣🗣🗣

[@AnmarBatarfi]

🗣️🔥

[@JoeMazzolaTheFirstPersonCook]

I dont have the time or hardware to play elden ring but love weird fantasy lore, so this channel is great for me

[@internal.rage.]

Ok?

[@jomega_gaming]

Huh?

[@greenhydra10]

"patch cycle" I see what you did there.

[@TheActualMrLink]

2:11 imagine if you could spirit ash summon a Guardian Golem. It’d be absolute BEDLAM in the Lands Between and Lands of Shadow.

[@menialbee]

until it falls over all the time. atleast enemies can't crit it so it'd be very tanky

[@gideon903]

all I want is a spirit ash for the Giant Rolling Metal Ball, the best enemy in the game

[@tarille1043]

Not just any Guardian Golem, that one unique one by the painting reward in Caelid that can create the stupidly powerful lasers.

[@metalsludge8205]

@@gideon903 what about Hero's Grave Chariot spirit ash

[@BionicmeLoL]

I wonder if the separated balancing from scadutree fragments in the DLC may have played a part. Like it may be tied to the individual enemies in the area and not the area itself, hence the necessity for copies.

[@SparkIgnitionv2]

This is what i was thinking.

[@mememaria4073]

Same thing i thought, that way there is the capability to have the scaling exist on a seperate "duplicate" so the base game remains untouched and no possibility for accidentally triggering scaling on an enemy type in the base game because something in the code goes wonky, cant go wonky if its a seperate entity that happens to be identical

[@angrybajur]

Nah, the scaling effects the player character, not the NPC's. By entering the DLC, your character gets nerfed, and by collecting scadu fragments, you lessen the nerf.

[@Reemon27]

true thats a huge factor as well

[@skyworldangel8796]

This isn't true the scaling of enemies has nothing to do with them being seperate models, scaling in the DLC is no different than the base game enemies have an effect on them that multiplies their base HP and damage. All enemies are balanced around a player being level 1 and then they multiply hp and damage based on where they appear.

[@Oscar-wp5cq]

No joke I got kinda jumpscared by the Miquella in the Cocoon.

[@DontKnowDontCare6.9]

Touch grass, dude.

[@rebycfa5673]

it wasn't worse than the giant skeleton looking inside of Ranni's rise window in that one video

[@Oscar-wp5cq]

@@DontKnowDontCare6.9 me when I'm kinda rude online for no reason.

[@jamB2007]

I love that you keep the music you do in your videos it makes me feel young still idk why but love your channel forever zullie! Thanks for still being here and in the souls community as a huge part of the community

[@bgsound2721]

The music is great, it seems fresh and new compared to other videos

[@loveisinportant5570]

Ever the insightful and interesting peeks into this amazing franchise. You never disappoint, Zullie. Love learning this kind of behind the scenes stuff.

[@86fifty]

I love vids like these that explain both what is seen in the behind-the-scenes code, and talk about why it might be that way. Of course everything is supposition, but still worth it to walk thru the thought process!

[@Kevvv890k]

1:18 The shadow realm version looks like the brain from up top

[@legoheyguy]

zullie i dont know why but i love you so much your content is so great. i love how it always captures my full attention, i love how effective and simple it is, i love the work you put into it, its all so good!! i genuinely can never get enough of your videos! it always makes me so happy to see when youve uploaded, and i wish you the best in everything you do. i love learning more and more about fromsoft and their games, and i love how you analyze and theorize. also, your video composition abilities have grown exponentially with the release of elden ring. i love how you compose shots and move characters. you an amazing creator and i hope you know that. thank you so much for everything you do. you always make my day

[@acetrigger1337]

Cocoon Miquella is not real... Cocoon Miquella IS. NOT. REAL. OH FUCK!!!

[@akechijubeimitsuhide]

Miquella peeking out of the cocoon like that "bonjour" polar bear meme

[@m3ssagefromtheking]

If what you say about the dlc being developed seperately is true and it wasnt updated alongside the base game, then this might explain why alot of the weapons from the dlc had poise damage values from and exploits from the older version of elden ring.

[@Thisisthegreatestatofalltime]

Probably also explains all the bugs with base game talismans like how a ton of dlc ashes didn’t work with shard of alexander (idk if this was ever fixed).

[@NWolfsson]

On the subject of leaks, I think it also eases finding the right asset to edit and prevents mistakenly altering a base game asset (when you have, let's say 15 trolls in the base game and 3 in the DLC, it makes sense that it would help to separate them)

[@gigachad1420]

I love these videos. Great work!

[@jimbo_13]

Wow that's fascinating. Thank you, Zullie!

[@t_race]

Thank you, this was super interesting into what went into making the dlc - behind the scenes.

[@Wrencher_86]

The trolls in the thumbnail always make me think of Daniel Stern in Home Alone 2 when he gets electrocuted by the sink.

[@monsieurdorgat6864]

Very sensible conclusions! Good analysis as always! Posting for the algorithm.

[@Daniel-xr7fc]

Good video, I like the perspective you provide. Also the visuals are all very pleasant and well put together

[@mgurcanli]

only recently beat the dlc final boss so my embargo on watching elden ring content has finally been lifted. good to be back

[@DarthSears]

My first instinct with the "duplicated ID" thing is to prevent any sort of overlap bug with the Scadutree Fragment buff. Can you imagine if, by accident, the flag triggered in the main gameplay area? Absolute chaos.

[@EyebrowBandit]

This further proves the theory that this is essentially its own game, they just added SO much!

[@23Scadu]

2:33 nice one.

[@rennen2424]

Legendary channel, always good uploads

[@TheWitchOfCaelid]

I had almost not noticed any differences x). I thought they were the same models as in the original game. Thank you for the explanations, I love understanding how games work and you explain it very well.

[@pinkk223]

Great video as always Zullie!!

[@Doitrez4104]

How can you have watched the entire video when it came out 20 seconds before you commented

[@chancetherappersburner6338]

​@@Doitrez4104skill issue

[@Doitrez4104]

@@chancetherappersburner6338 how about you get the skill to talk to some women huh?

[@chancetherappersburner6338]

@@Doitrez4104 wym? I love hanging out with your mom

[@AnmarBatarfi]

​@@Doitrez4104we are all maidenless

[@VoidAbaddon]

Fromsoft: "They said they wanted new enemies, so we obliged!"

[@zack_feldman]

We appreciate you!

[@AoBaiGaming]

Could also be that the assets were kept separate because of the Scadutree system. Having different enemy IDs and how they would interact with the Scadutree scaling would certainly be much easier if they were all their own separate set of assets. Something like "DLC_Giant" having the Scadutree scaling in it's code while "Basegame_Giant" does not. If they used the same assets and code, there could've been complications where a few mobs in basegame would be subjected to Scadutree mechanisms unintentionally, or even the inverse, where DLC mobs wouldn't be subjected to it.

[@adamkartchner3772]

exactly what I was thinking

[@Mene0]

Very interesting insight on the challenges of developing the game, Zullie.

[@Brasswatchman]

1:42 I wonder if they were encountering problems with using the same models as the base game. Slight changes "leaking" from the DLC into the base game and so forth.

[@jasv49]

I get your point but this video has the vibe of school me trying to convince the teacher I didn't copy my friend's homework

[@n0isyturtle]

After 100's of hours in ER, this is the first time I noticed the Kindred heads are seashells.

[@sofer2230]

We saw a very real downside to this "split code" approach besides file size: Many synergies between base game and DLC features simply did not work as intended, most notably Godfrey Icon.

[@iota-09]

not only that, but also patch team and dlc team were working on things separately and at launch many of the new weapons, spells etc operated as if they were working with patch 1.07 values rather than 1.10 or 1.11.

[@vallahdsacretor4839]

I'm learning programming right now and this is a tactic to compartmentalize the different programs at play. Like you said Zullie, the DLC can largely ignore what happens to the base game and vice versa. Which, you know, is great when you have a large project and might need to tweak something somewhere else. Central repositories are great for small, single focus projects. But after a certain point, the need to compartmentalized repositories comes through and it becomes easier to isolate assets.

[@Athena908]

Zullie pls never make me look at that render of Miquella peering out of the cocoon again

[@Adam-zc3of]

A+ for that "patch cycle" pun!

[@shadowmsc7278]

I can now predict what music you're going to use in every video based on the thumbnail

[@zrswitch8434]

Miquella peeping out the cocoon is true nightmare fuel

[@bretthughes1657]

korok forest theme is so good dude

[@soiled_it]

Patches being shown simply because the word "patch" is used is gold.

[@metalmonster9536]

This is common in game development, if anyone wants to praise From for their genius work. Also putting Patches for the term patches was so cute, Zullie.

[@ObiThumbKenobi]

I though video games were made in MS Paint and Q Basic. This channel has taught me a lot.

[@St-ef9ru]

1:52 so glad Patches was able to support the DLC's development

[@jonlava173]

I like to think of it as an evolution of the species according to the unique conditions and environments that distinguish the Erdtree and the Shadow Erdtree.

[@MrGreenPong]

when i found my first skeletal dragon i was dissapointed and thought its just a resking with nothing new to it, then got suprised when it whipped out new moves that were not in base game and loved it

[@selensewar]

Wow, that's actually amazing.

[@cloudbloom]

Thank you Zullie, very cool!

[@SolaScientia]

I love the joke of "patch cycle" with that image of Patches and definitely did not make an undignified noise when I saw it. Also, I'm pretty sure I'd have pissed myself if Miquella had suddenly popped up in the cocoon like a demented Jack-In-The-Box.

[@AricShadowDragon]

That person inside the egg spooked me for some reason XD

[@foxmind2490]

Always enjoy class with my favorite FromSoft teacher

[@pepperlicous]

Could you do the difference between Godrick and godefroy?

[@cowhale2488]

Evergaol shading, no phase 2, altus plateau scaling, same everything else

[@lharsay]

it's so lame that he wasn't finished

[@pepperlicous]

@@cowhale2488 for lore wise Ik all that stuff

[@pepperlicous]

@@lharsay Ik bro

[@BygoneT]

​@@lharsayIf he's unfinished or not depends on your personal opinion. You can head canon away the fact that he has the same moves as him just being Godricks's teacher in many ways. I would have appreciated a full on regular secret boss, not an evergaol, but there would have to be further lore attached to him, and if that means less attention to other areas and better bosses in exchange for a remixed Godrick (it would have to be like this, because there is no reason to add a Godefroy if you're not gonna reference how Godrick acts and fights otherwise) I'd rather keep him like this.

[@ThommyofThenn]

By the power of Zullie, you may now leave a Thumb of Approval on the video.

[@saiuan4562]

Composition over inheritance. A wise choice.

[@AntonYadrov777]

A lot of games copy assets like that for big DLC, for the reasons you stated here. It indeed makes development easier and allows for separate patch branches which won't accidentally break something in the base game or other DLC.

[@global-sequence]

Miyazaki to investors: "the DLC contains entirely and exclusively new enemies" Strikes the 'what do you want' gesture

[@SuperMrSkully]

The reason why they're separate NPC's is due to most of the dlc team not having worked on og elden ring or even armored core 6. They couldn't risk the base game version to be overwritten. Also both versions not being affected by updating one can lead to a meriad of issues and complications, its why it's not standard in any programming field.

[@MsVilecat]

It is standard in programming though when you work with live servers and/or big infrasctructures. Having a separate enclosed environment to work on and plan integration has been a useful tool for decades now.

[@Lexsed]

This seemed to also have a detrimental effect on equipment, for example the fist weapons (specifically the Pata) still had the guaranteed running R2 into R2 stunlock for pvp (dealing upwards of 1000 damage), which was patches a while ago on all basegame fist weapons.

[@iota-09]

yeah... this pretty much confirms this to be the cause of the new weapon categories having patch 1.07 poise damage on release of the dlc, it means that the gamefiles were duplicated around that time and the patch team forgot to inform the main dev team to fix the numbers...

[@parkerdixon-word6295]

The other notable reason to keep all the DLC enemies as separate as possible from their base game counterparts is Scadutree Fragment Scaling- because that mechanic is present in the DLC, and the enemies in that section of the game have to be at least a little bit designed around it, keeping them coded separately is probably necessary for those reasons, even if they maybe could've gotten away with referencing the same animations and textures rather than copying them if not for the other reasons you mentioned.

[@roberttepes8216]

One notable thing as to why they may have made the enemies separate could also be to alter their hp and damage easier with the way the difficulty and scaling works in Elden Ring. Like in Haligtree enemies having like 4-5 times more hp than the same enemies if encountered elsewhere.

[@kalimaude3532]

I was just sitting there pleasantly thinking about the way that all this has worked out, that we have access to the ability to treat the game's design process as a sort of puzzle. It would be less interesting on the whole if there was an interview or document that told us why it was done this way. And sometimes it results in finding neat little details that are almost impossible to find in normal gameplay, as if now it's a little deliberate on their part, knowing that someone will dive into the depths of their work from the other side and see little testaments to how much love they put into it. What a fantastic way to enjoy this whole thing. Warm, pleasant sorta thoughts, you know? Then, EGG MIQUELLA JUMPSCARE. There is nothing that will whip you right out of a pleasant haze of admiring the world we ended up in like that goddamn kid eyeing you out of a cocoon like he just saw Radahn take his helmet off and shake his hair out. Creepy little bastard. Tell you what, if that had been what we saw in the cutscene for Mohg, everyone would have been Team Mohgwyn from day one. Yes, *please* take the scary boy away and put him in the big egg.

[@sukugaru5167]

I’m a professional programmer and at a former job I was a Change Control Officer. One of the biggest annoyances when you make a change to something is that then you have to test it. (Make a change to an animation used by all Soldier enemies? Okay! Now sone “lucky” testers get to do a million and one tests to make sure none of the soldier enemies have broken.) So for the Elden Ring DLC, it would be far easier and less testing intensive to make copies of basegame assets, and then make changes to the copies.

[@duckyduckington9736]

keeping it real, the scarlet broods should've dealt scarlet rot on their uh... pest threads.

[@RubenGarcia-pt8tp]

I would also guess that it means that any changes to the dlc assets during development don’t need to be rechecked in the base game. For example, when they painted the kindred of rot red, they didn’t need to go back to the base game and make sure no enemies there had been painted red since they are different

[@gentlemanjoker1777]

interesting, i'll be honest i'm no coder. but i'm no slouch with tech. not sure how this makes me feel. half wonder if it could be optimized out after finishing it. but i feel like that wouldn't be worth the man power so it's as you said probably negligible. with how different lighting is in areas of Elden ring i never noticed things like the shade of the trolls being different. the Jar lid is something i noticed though. but it's cool to have others as simple as shading pointed out. i wonder where else we may find peculiarities like this.

[@OneMomentPls]

The fact that the size will be negligible is why they go with this approach. In game development, the step doesn't really matter as long as the end product works as intended and meets the required criteria.

[@conjim]

I'm sure you were driving at this in your video, but I feel they also wanted seperate versions of base game assets in the DLC so that they could make changes to them for the DLC without breaking anything in the base game, and it seems to have worked. I personally haven't seen or heard of any new bugs cropping up, and it's been a hot minute since the DLC dropped, so i think it's safe to say this approach has worked. Of course, it's always harder to see what doesn't happen than what does, but I feel this is correct.

[@jeydomo]

Speaking of patches to the game, I'm still waiting for tanith questline completion. Wtf are the castinets for?! Goddammit patches?! Was this your final troll????

[@LordDragox412]

Fans: No no no, you just don't understand the genius of lord Miyazaki and the incredible depths of the lore, you simpleton! Tanith was one of the Red Dancers! The connotations and implications are simply stunning! The quest is complete, your small brain just doesn't get it! Meanwhile FromSoft: Uhhh, yeah, totally what they said, we wouldn't just simply forget about all those quests and not finish them, haha. That would be totally unlike us.

[@jeydomo]

@LordDragox412 lol real shit. Considering tanith denies knowing what they are so :/

[@ryder1658]

Hmmm… can I spot the difference? Conceivably. Will I? That’s for me to decide.

[@czarsquid855]

Makes sense they treat it as it's own game and assets. Much easier to balance the game too since you don't need to worry about treading old ground.

[@StewartHiles]

i guessed which song would play just by looking at the thumbnail haha

[@benboucher592]

I just gave birth to the furtive Pygmy

[@Juria1987]

Yeah considering the sheer size of the DLC and Base game, that tactic they picked does make a lot of sense. I can't blame them for going that route, never fun to end up tripping over one another's feet when trying to work on such big projects.

[@Volnixz]

Downside is if there is something wrong with an NPC you might need to change it twice

[@OfficialQuerppMusic]

Awesome video!

[@ninepearlfangs]

I guess this explains why big mods hadn't touched the dlc at all when it came out

[@NoxofShadow]

So interresting ! love it

[@MaxG628]

One other benefit: DLC work won’t affect base game, avoiding outright bugs or accidental balance changes.

[@Floodsye]

It could also have to do with how Steam and other platforms handle "DLC" type products. Many games simply now have to download everything including DLC in the main game download, the DLC being just a keycard essentially to access the DLC content. Elden Ring's DLC instead uses the older method of DLCs, where the DLC is a separate download. As such, likely any asset that is part of the DLC is stored on a separate section of server storage than the base game for Steam/Xbox/Playstation, as you said the DLC is a separate game essentially.

[@LordTerrald]

Korok Forest OST? Gonna be another Zullie banger.

[@rafsandomierz5313]

Their fighting pace in general is (or at least was at the time of release) also faster, so not every enemy with the base game design is the same.

[@owen4939]

Why are the terrifying mobs of ER less unsettling than Miquella in this video 😭

[@nssheepster]

It might be just for Scadu functionality. It'd probably be safer to work the Scadu buff/debuffs on an enemy basis rather than based on being in the right places, so presumably they tagged all the enemies in the DLC with 'Is in the Shadow Lands' or something like that, to get the fragment buffs to only work on the enemies they're supposed to work on. Which will make things interesting for the Randomizer folks, if that's how they worked it.

[@CrimsonRayne]

ohh thats really cool. great and smart catch

[@garymcjerry]

1:16 never noticed how Celtic the Jars were. Side by side, really give off the Pagan Celts vs the Christian Romans vibe, which… oh, that weirdly fits with the new Roman style of armour in the DLC… And… Ur, being a ancient city, like in Mesopotamia in Irl… they’re really taking their historical influences that’s for sure.

[@grimmSOL]

From Software always pushing the boundaries of design, development and quality. Even for DLC.

[@detromaniac]

The explanation for the copies is probably that they needed to due to the scadutree fragment damage scaling.

[@acdcguy18]

My friend was so pissed when he killed a Forager Brood thinking it was a Lesser Kindred of Rot. I remember him ranting, "They shouldn't introduce a friendly version of an enemy that drives their players nuts!" He then disliked my response, "I warned you the regular looking Lesser Kindred of Rot are friendly and the red ones are hostile." screaming, "I forgot! Fuck!" I almost made the same mistake but saw the red ones first questioning the regular one I first saw ready to sneak attack it when I saw the 'Talk' prompt.

[@Rick586]

This should also help prevent all the new stuff from causing bugs in the base game too.