Batteries for Electric Aviation: Where does the battery technology stand and where it is heading

[@josephaharon]

Such a fan of this channel. It's rare to find explainer videos that have so much substance yet really hold your attention. Keep 'em coming!!!!

[@ElectricAviation]

Thank you. Fresh video coming this Thursday.

[@J0hn1o1o]

i really like the level of detail of you presentation and the fact, that you didnt get too hyped about the 4680 Cells ;-)

[@maciejukasiewicz7661]

Such an underrated channel. But the outstanding content quality suggests 1mln subs by end of next year.

[@ElectricAviation]

Thank you so much. It only been around 6 months. Lets hope so

[@fredbloggs4829]

Another great video. Keep them coming.

[@deldridg]

Great summary and beautifully structured as always. Your channel is definitely the go-to for keeping up with electric aviation and beyond IMHO. Many thanks - Dave

[@wernerheil6697]

Exciting specialty channel, excellent videos !

[@bryanlallen]

Battery energy density figures are typically computed for 25 degrees C. Go down to 15º C and you can only pack in perhaps 80%; go to 0º C and that figure may only be 60%. Conversely, cycle life is increased at lower temperatures; batteries really don’t like high temperatures! Fuels like kerosene are far less limited by temperature fluctuations. And then there’s the bugaboo that a fueled aircraft gets lighter and lighter during flight whereas a battery aircraft stays at the same weight the entire flight. So: energy density is only part of the challenge with electric aircraft. Battery volume is also a big problem; try cramming 90 kWh of batteries into a tiny two-seat aircraft while leaving room for pilot and passenger!

[@XPLAlN]

A couple of good points you make. It is a much tougher nut to crack than EVs. With fuel, every pound burned results in less drag, and for various reasons it is significantly more efficient to fly at high altitude. But batteries will not perform at the low temperatures where virtually all public transport flights operate so there are obstacles for this technology to progress beyond puddle jumping and into the airways.

[@LosZonga]

Batteries can be placed in wings, having a structural role too and the preconditioning, ensures operational efficiency at any temperature (with some energy loss). While the efficiency of electricity can't be denied, even ice engines use a lot of electronics, why not have only one system, having everything neat packed and lighter? Also, the ability to recover energy while going down to land it's inherit in electric engines. Let's presume you use 30% to climb to 10.000 m where the air is thinner and you have less resistance, with smaller solar panels now you have more solar radiation and better efficiency that can put 3,6 maybe 10% back or it can improve your range. Let's say that you fly for 1 hr at almost 80% efficiency using 60% with a front prop and you recover from the wake of the airflow with a back prop 10% of that. Now you have 40-50% for landing. The regulation is 30% for vtol. but for a normal aircraft, 10% is more than needed and you recover that only by going down for landing.

[@LosZonga]

I just wait for Tesla 4860 to get 1 year of use, to see how much that chemistry can be pushed. I am sure even now, if we push the law to accept a bigger load on electric ultralight the today technology on batteries and engines it is enough for a two sitter with the same range +500Km simpler technology, solar charging and structural packs, neat servos ditching hydraulics completely, to be half price and 80% cheaper on the cost of operation and service. But then, what will you do with all that value stuck in ice engine technology? I understand the reluctance of aviation and they will hold it as much as they can. I don't see any reason to wait for vtol.

[@maxhugen]

Thanks, that was an excellent explanation of current battery technology, really like the graphics you used, they work well! 👍 🇦🇺

[@FarmerFpv]

Brilliant research.

[@solteszan]

Great video, very informational and still in-depth

[@faluffel]

Great walkthrough of the state of battery technology! Hope to see more of this!

[@nickkacures5507]

Thank you for the information i really appreciate your in depth research and your graphics are also top notch and helpful .I really like your show and can't wait for the next one.any news on John Goodenough and his teams work on his solid state batteries

[@ElectricAviation]

You're very welcome! No I havent heard any big news from John Goodenough. There is certainly a race to make SSB in the industry though

[@HungrySandwitch]

Your videos are incredible your analysis is very valuable in understanding electric aviation. Subscribed :)

[@Reray96]

I love your video, thank you for making such great and original content

[@shaunhall1838]

Exciting times!

[@Eugensdiet]

To bad I'm pushing 80. Would love to fly in a Lilium.

[@JulianParry1]

Great analysis - thank you. A follow up with fluoride ion battery development would be great 👍

[@nodsworthy]

Man, I love your videos. Science and data-backed, calm, ordered, professional. I for one am glad you didn't persist with the computer synthesized voice. Your accent is uniquely you and as soon as I hear it I know I'm going to hear good information.

[@ElectricAviation]

Wow, thanks!

[@6or7breadsticks]

Great video, now I want some batteries

[@alimsaljaber7]

Amazing Content, learning alot, Thank you very much for your efforts 👍🙏

[@andrewpaulhart]

You are certainly one of the most informative channels I’ve seen. Keep up the good work

[@ElectricAviation]

Wow, thanks!

[@parlojanmihai6570]

Great video! Now, the point of electric flight is the cheap flight hour price that comes with it but no one has time to recharge a plane and that is why Siemens and other major players placed battery racks in planes. You introduce your fully charged units, fly land, replace and take off again. It's the simplest and best available solution for the whole electrical transport sector, for now. It's all about the return of investment since EV it's a self sponsored business rather than a state subsidized research project. We have to put business before passion in order to understand how these things work. If the cash flows things are rolling. Best wishes for everyone!

[@dekutree64]

Yeah, and higher charge rate is not only a challenge for the battery itself, but also for the infrastructure to supply power to it. And if you're going to swap batteries out anyway, you might as well use aluminum-air.

[@잘살자개론]

Lilium is Innovation!!!

[@evreview3455]

Always quality content

[@michaeldunne338]

A very important topic that the video does a good job covering.

[@MB-THX1138]

Thank you for your concise BS free explainations

[@judo-rob5197]

A very good explanation of the battery limitations and future prospects.

[@EdwardTilley]

Good summary; I especially liked the consistent energy-density focus throughout, and the final summary chart of how leading competing technologies (at 12:08) stack up.

[@comptegoogle511]

If the take-off take a significant portion of the energy stored then if the vehicle always takes-off from the same place then it could be connected to an extension cord until maybe 200 m of altitude and then disconnect for vertical flight.

[@zulemadeheza3199]

Another varient would be consider a electromagnetic catapult that normally the Aircraft carrier employ

[@PerErikKarlsson]

Excellent video. One though, the internal combustion engine with efficiency of 18% is a bit misleading in this context. Efficiency of a modern, large scale jet engine would be more then double that number, > 40%.

[@ElectricAviation]

Over here though we are only comparing small IC engine aircrafts with Electric aircraft. We are a long long way away from electric competing with Jet Engines

[@philipz658]

Great video, you did good research.

[@SkepticalCaveman]

Aluminium Oxide batteries are the solution. Very light and energy dense. Only downside is that they aren't rechargeable, so the solution is to use many small and easily swappable cells.

[@dmcosta]

Hi! Great video and channel! Can you make one video about Ehang? And Joby Aviation?

[@ElectricAviation]

Joby Aviaton is on my list

[@richardcanfield2741]

Thanx for the vid that was very interesting. Detailed information is excellent

[@johnbird8354]

I really appreciate your videos. I have subscribed. Thank you. I'm interested in LSA and specifically gyroplanes. Can you comment on the tipping point of Whr/kg for gyros. Maybe compare with performance of Rotax engines. The 915is perhaps or their mid-range. Thanks again

[@agingell1]

Great video, a modern turbofan e.g. on the B787 or A350 will be around 55% thermodynamic efficiency, quite a bit better than 18%, and they are about 75% efficient in converting that into thrust. For propeller aircraft the propeller thrust conversion efficiency can be 85+%

[@ElectricAviation]

The comparison here was with small IC engine planes, the Cessna's , the Piper's etc. Batteries cannot compete with jet planes. Fuels cells have a chance

[@evanriddle1614]

Metal air batteries are the only choice presently. They can and will work but I'm not disclosing the logistics of operations here. Thank you cour your video.

[@mehrdadzand386]

Mehrdad Zand 2 months ago Mr. Anil Sagar: In my humble opinion for e-vital plans by reducing electric consumption during take-off and landing, you could add to the passenger carrying capacity of the said planes or increase cruising distance. This can be done by some hard-wire arrangement either by electric overhead contact or by take-off/landing electric polls via a coupling/decoupling arrangement at the top of the said polls all the way down supplying the plain

[@gonzalomorenoandonaegui2052]

@Electric Aviation What about other types of energy storage ? Like graphene hyper Capacitors, or "Structural energy storage" composites, or SMES ? How far are those ? Could you make a video about that ?

[@johnmyviews3761]

Could the aluminium residue be swapped out for recycling in an air aluminium battery

[@0ctatr0n]

When calculating the range of the batteries vs fuel, did you factor in some of the other variables like the fact that as fuel planes use up their fuel they become lighter during flight, and as a result become more efficient the further they go? Or the potential of Electric propeller aircraft to recharge during decent? There may even be some advantage to flying at MUCH higher altitudes for electric aircraft, such as less wind resistance due not not having an air breathing engine, however this may negated by the lack of air available for the propellers use for propulsion. What do you think?

[@brianevolved2849]

yep good points

[@kennethhawley1063]

Add a pressurized cabin and pressurisation and cabin heating systems if you want take advantage of reduced air density.

[@bernardthedisappointedowl6938]

Thanks, always good quality content, ^oo^

[@RedcoatsReturn]

You are again Best In Class at this stuff! 😊👏👏👏👏👏👏😊👍👍 I wonder if fuel cells using H2 or even fuel will be important, perhaps as an alternative emergency back up if batteries malfunction or fail?

[@PhilVirginie]

Great video 👍🏼

[@ElectricAviation]

Thanks 👍

[@MattiasAllring]

Another great video! Great explanations! I am very curious about the recent developments in ”hydrogen goo” that was featured on the latest episode of the OLF podcast. If I understood it right, it would be a very energy dense way in combination with fuel cells to power electric planes. Also very fast turnaround, as you pour the ”goo” into a tank similar normal refueling. Anything you could do an episode on?

[@ElectricAviation]

Yup definitely in the works but I have a few other videos that I will be working on first

[@brianevolved2849]

95% of H2 made of hydrocarbons me thinks??

[@lionelspencer-ward3527]

When are we going to get a Z.P.M. (Zero-Point Module) ??? The device itself serves as an enclosure for an artificially created pocket of subspace-time. 'Zero point energy' is extracted from this pocket until it reaches maximum entropy, at which point the pocket collapses, leaving behind a useless shell. So fairly simple technology! It has an estimated life of around 10 thousand years and will really help me out as a powers source on my VW Beetle!

[@subathrabaskaran6429]

Could you say something about Nano diamond batteries?

[@desicoder8527]

Great video and good explanation without fluff. one thing I did not quite get was why nobody has yet tried to make a super efficient electric generator from av fuel and then keep the rest of efficiency gains from electric plane architecture? assuming theoretical efficiency of 50% for gasoline->electricity that could mean at least 2.5x (50->20pc) operation efficiency gain. and this is without factoring in any gains from improved aero dynamics & rotor config because of electric prupulsion. wondering what your thoughts on that are?

[@SimonAmazingClarke]

You do a great comparison between batteries and avgas engines, which I was surprised at. It would also be worth while looking at the efficiency of Gas Turbines, I'm sure that they are a lot less efficient than gasoline engines.

[@ElectricAviation]

Gas Turbines are actually more efficient than IC engines, not the smaller ones but the larger ones. Electric Aircraft at present cannot compete with jet powered aircraft. They can only compete with IC engine aircraft at present

[@realvanman1]

Two more factors to make for a truly fair comparison would be the fact that the aviation fuel is used during flight, so you are only carrying the weight of that which has not yet been used, and the ability to take on less than a full fuel load, allowing greater load capacity and or reduced fuel consumption.

[@michaeldepodesta001]

Thank you. That was very clear and really helped me grasp where the field is up to. And the prospects look at least good as the prospects for hydrogen-based aviation!

[@ElectricAviation]

Glad it was helpful!

[@DavidKaden369]

Very nice video summary! Thanks a lot.

[@ElectricAviation]

Glad it was helpful!

[@liamredmill9134]

Your missing a critical combining tecknology,namely super capacitors,which in combination(very light)offer extreme bursts of power,when combined with something like the sulphure battery,regulate the irregularities of lift off power(on a plane catapult),climb,high efficiency high altitude(super effecient battery use)gliding down,and landing(parachute/giro copter).other landing i thought of,was parachute into swimming pool,and parachute onto inflatable sheets,covering a whole field,here you can make the two ends of the power consumption of 300-400 batteries workable

[@tobiasreichelt888]

Yo, you forgot to include that electric aircraft can reach 7 - 20 times lower air density during cruise. And the ∆Epot. Besides that, awesome!

[@ElectricAviation]

Good point!

[@owenbradshaw9302]

You may want to actually watch battery day before quoting 1/5 of the battery enhancements , they increased range by 54% ( not entirely from battery density , but it sounds like they will be starting at 330 kWh to 350

[@Eugensdiet]

Aluminum - Air looks good for the military.

[@papparocket]

One note about aluminum-air batteries not being rechargeable. While that is true for _in situ_ recharging, meaning that the battery can't be recharged while still in the vehicle, it isn't true if you expand your definition of recharging to include the storage of electrical energy in the active material in a process that is done after the battery has been removed from the vehicle. In the case of aluminum-air, the discharge product is aluminum hydroxide (Al(OH)₃. Aluminum hydroxide is easily "recharged" back to metallic aluminum since it is what is extracted from bauxite ore as the first step in the aluminum smelting process. The aluminum hydroxide removed from the "spent" battery is thermally decomposed to aluminum oxide, which is in turn reduced to metallic aluminum by the addition of electrical energy in a electrolysis cell. New aluminum plates are then made and inserted into refurbished aluminum-air batteries and reinstalled into the vehicle. This does require the batteries to be removed from the vehicle. However, this can also be an advantage since a battery swap in a well designed system is more akin to refueling rather than recharging and so can result in much faster turn-around. The downside, however, is that the round-trip efficiency which includes the electrical energy used to recycle the aluminum is rather low at 20% or so. Plus there are other issues such as the need for rare-earth metals on the cathode side in order to split the oxygen, and the need to manage and potentially continuously remove the aluminum hydroxide since it can basically gum up the works and slow the operation and limit the power.

[@123DOWNUNDER890]

Great video. I learnt at lot. Thank you.

[@ElectricAviation]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@ABC-rh7zc]

Really interesting, thanks.

[@ElectricAviation]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@skydivekrazy76]

This channel is going to be the "Transportation Evolved/Fully Charged" of EAVs....

[@AbhishekSoni-fv2ks]

It’s 4680 form factor not 4860. Hope you understand that makes a significant difference .

[@dejayrezme8617]

A bit off topic, but are there any concepts or thoughts about electric seaplanes? This is just a fancy idea but you mentioned something similar in your airship intro, I love the idea of having a kind of "camper van" airplane. If you could integrate a lot of solar cells into the wings you could slowly recharge an electric plane. So it would take maybe a week to fully recharge, but you could fly somewhere, land on what and then live there for a while. You'd want to increase surface area for that and it would add weight of course. But maybe something like the celera 500L. And being able to land anywhere were there is water allows a really broad use. But I don't know if you're even allowed to land on some random lake haha.

[@ElectricAviation]

There was one made early last year in Canada. It was a retrofit

[@dejayrezme8617]

@@ElectricAviation Thanks. You have a name or link with more info?

[@ElectricAviation]

@@dejayrezme8617 www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/11/worlds-first-fully-electric-commercial-aircraft-takes-flight-in-canada

[@robertlackey7212]

I have been thinking about something kind of different , what kind of batteries would be appropriate for COIN (counter insurgency) aircraft , here you need a low tech rugged battery that can be shot full of bullet holes and still provide a limp home capability . Long range is not necessary , but long loiter time is , and low noise is a really big plus. My vote goes to a developed version of today's NiZn batteries , I would like to hear what do you think are some possible candidates.

[@Soothsayer210]

wish you could talk about Hydrogen/ Fuel Cell aircrafts too.

[@nibblernibbles3205]

Where did you get your numbers for engine efficiency? Rotax 915 consumption is 290g/kWhr. At 45.8Mj/kg, that's 13.8Mj per kWhr (3.6Mj) output so efficiency is 27%. Automotive derived diesels like Continental CD155 do 210g/kWhr so give efficiency in the mid 30s. And the claimed 3-5x improvement for distributed propulsion, if realised (highly questionable!), could also be applied to a combustion energy source in a hybrid, as well as to a battery source. You have also neglected the energy consumed in battery manufacture, which is amplified by the deleterious effect of high discharge rates on battery lifetime. Pipistrel Electro warranties their batteries for only 800 cycles, or 400 hours - this is a big part of its lifecycle CO2. For the foreseeable future, limited supplies of lithium batteries should be used in urban buses, cars and delivery vans... not build flying sports cars for billionaires. If they want to save the planet, they should stay on the ground and catch that electric bus - like the rest of us.

[@martingarrish4082]

Great research to find out what's happening in battery space. But, have you done the calculation to see how heavy li-air and al-air batteries get when discharged? All that Li2O or Al2O3 is surprisingly heavy. Unless plan is to drop batteries during flight to keep the weight down... 😧

[@ElectricAviation]

Thanks for letting me know. Will look into it

[@MrJatoking]

cool stuff

[@Kruglord]

What do you think about Aluminum-air batteries for aviation? They already have a practical energy density of 1300 W h / Kg, their only drawback is that they're not rechargeable (although they are recyclable). But since you're not charging between airports anyways, in principle you can just replace the AvGas infrastructure with Al-air battery infrastructure. Edit: oh, you do address it, I just didn't watch to the end before commenting.

[@richardcanfield2741]

Is there any reason why we shouldn’t use alternators to recharge on the go? All the tech going into these batteries when deep cell marine batteries would last long & are very powerful. Why not build a frame to suite then shell to fit?

[@mdjuned9564]

I'm Bangladesh here

[@caoeason9102]

to calculate efficiency of electric aviation, you have to consider the efficiency of Inverter, or the efficiency of battery degradation, and efficiency of charging as well. Therefore, the efficiency of electric system could not be 90%

[@UJMjordan]

Can you do a video analyzing Joby Aviation?

[@ElectricAviation]

Yes definitely will do. Its on my publishing schedule

[@alexstewart1535]

I'd be interested to see where the 18% comes from for Avgas engines. In a fixed wing aircraft I have seen more like 29% for a Lycoming engine. Doesn't change the conclusions very much but 18% seems low.

[@alexanderhupfer]

He forgot to take into account that an conventional aircraft gets lighter as it flies. Unless you drop batteries during flight ^^

[@deldridg]

Excellent point. Remember to look up if you're in the countryside in 20 years! ;-)

[@jontopham2742]

I argue its more about kW per kg not kWh... Lithium sulfur is the wrong direction, we need power for lift but it's way fewer kWh per mile. More important to use that high c rate to charge rapidly

[@zainabkhalid5576]

Brilliant💕

[@comptegoogle511]

Aluminium batteries could be used as a part of the airplane structure.

[@Savan_Triveda]

Alluminium-Air Battery? If this battery is not rechargeable then it maybe recyclable. So at the fabrics entrance used batteries come in on the exit recycled batteries come out.

[@LouSaydus]

looks like solid state batteries and lithium sulphur batteries are the best bet in the short term.

[@NSAwatchesME]

Who makes the highest density battery? And what is its C rating & price?

[@HNS-007]

very impressed and subscribed

[@ElectricAviation]

Welcome aboard!

[@cyanalyst3458]

he used the faraday report for this video if anyone is wondering where did he get info for battery technologies

[@TimothyWhiteheadzm]

One thing you didn't mention in your calculations is that fuel is used up during the flight, which effectively makes its average mass lower. The average is probably not quite 50% lower as aircraft do not typically use all their fuel, and takeoff is when the aircraft has the most fuel and also uses the most power. So overall it might not affect your calculations significantly.

[@ramentabetai1266]

Aluminium-air is perfect for aviation.

[@brianevolved2849]

Hope yr Chanel grows what are your qualifications

[@ElectricAviation]

Thanks. PhD (Mechanical Engineering)

[@brianevolved2849]

@@ElectricAviation i thought so.... what do you think of The Eviation Alice Capt Brian Pilot Bsc mec eng

[@srinivassiddarth]

Why all the restrictions on battery weight, power density, and total weight of the electric air craft etc? Why cant the designers and developers have a free hand?

[@corevision8675]

I have a idea for a aircraft battery 🔋/🪫 with fast charging and slow discharge integrated inside the aircraft skin, and some of its structure.

[@stevemickler452]

I wonder if the fact that the 46-80 battery can be bonded and take structural loads makes it almost good enough if for instance it is used for say, the main wig spar, and other structure.

[@ElectricAviation]

Its a good idea. In cars batteries are providing structural rigidity so why not in planes

[@willyouwright]

Can you do something similar to youtuber The limiting factor on all the ways you can improve efficiency on aircraft? And what new startups are attempting to solve? I find you think similar to Elon. Would be good to get your take on new paradigm of air transport.. i.e. big planes vs small vtol

[@stephenjacks8196]

The heavy part of the battery is the Cathode not the Anode so Lithium has little advantage. A breakthru would be a usable Oxygen electrode, so far only seen in high temperature fuel cells. Batteries, like rocket engines, are penalized by carrying oxidizer along with fuel.

[@melgelderman]

Hey how can we donate to your channel?

[@jonnupe1645]

Commenting for KZbin algorithm

[@someoneelse7629]

Yeah, if the batterys get twice the energy density, and the electric planes gets much more aerodynamicly efficient, they will almost match the gasoline planes of today, unless they also get better. The Pipistrel Electric with twice the endurance will still not beat the gas model in range, but maybe become a viable alternative not just for flightschools that mostly does ~45min lessons. The thing is you need to have a reserve capacity for it to fly somewhere and not just circle the field.

[@mikemaloney5830]

Also.... electric motors don’t idle. When aircraft is stopped (or descending) the motor need not be running. I have an electric motor on my boat tender ( dinghy) and love it.

[@davidsoo1688]

As the jet fuel is burnt, the plane gets lighter. The battery weighs the same after discharged. 400wh/kg may not be enough?

[@lukaskopia]

Could you please make a video about possible experimental light sport kit built aircraft, that you could fit in with an electric motor instead of a piston engine like a Rotax? Great example would be Earthstar Gull 2000 ultralight. I bet you could find more.

[@ElectricAviation]

Its a good idea. I will consider that for a future video. Thanks. You may want to check this one out kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJW2fIR4r8h_qqs

[@michaelgranger7113]

Jet planes are perfectly sustainable as far as I'm concerned.

[@richardcanfield2741]

Something else that puzzles the mess out of me is, hydrogen tech, stability, fuel fumes, operability. Opportunity at our fingertips & everyone is on batteries. If the batteries are used as secondary operations & emergency main operations if necessary. Why not use other powered powerful motors that uses sensible fuels? To dependent on batteries.

[@hyouzanren1846]

I want a flying phone so better batteries is a must! 😀😀😀

[@MrInnovativeEnergy]

Mr. Fusion please......

[@RobertSmith-gl5vs]

Manufacturing batteries is very power intensive, and requires power levels only achievable by using petroleum or coal……..