S shape or straight tone arm, whitch is better?

www.djtutor.com...
www.djtutor.com...
Give your opinion please.

[@emk2585]

After reading through a whole bunch of comments, and based on my knowledge, let me just boil down the overwhelming response for future readers: the problem brought up in this video was solved by the manufacturers either at the development of straight tone-arms of very probably shortly thereafter. There are two different types of headshells/cartridges on the market: those for s-shaped and those for straight tonearms. The headshells for straight tone-arms are already angled to prevent wear.

[@ItsPainnz]

if the needle is old especially it just doesnt even track right anymore even after counter balancing and skate adjusting doesnt help some records will just skip all the time

[@Shakeabreaka]

The overhang on the S arm is 52mm, the overhang for an straight arm is 50mm. No need to angle on a straight arm if the overhang is right it will lay on the groove perfectly.

[@JuhwanYou]

god support djs who dragging crates of vinyls at 3am

[@twojaedzia9238]

Once I adjusted the skating and the weight it may move , but never skips a samples while cutting/ scratching for days!! LOVE THESE TABLE'S.. WAY BETTER THAN TECHNIQUES!! SCRATCH HEADZ, TAMPA FLORIDA

[@djfrenchman]

I have a Stanton T62 with a straight tonearm. The cartridge is already set at an angle within the headshell. In fact there are 2 markings where to put the screws in order to fit an angled cartridge.

[@brettbolton654]

FRENCHMAN REGGAE PROMOTION ™ I bought some t-62s the other week and thought it was strange that the carts were angled,so I was gonna change em but for some reason I dint and now I see why they're set that way and what the marks are for on the headshell 😊😊

[@Reticuli]

Underhung strait arms can't get the cartridges out far enough to make that worth while.

[@djfrenchman]

I got Shure M44-7 cartidges installed on my straight arm decks. Playing a Bowie album perfectly right now.

[@tinetannies4637]

For simple listening, a straight arm will have less mass. This wouldn't matter if records were perfectly flat but since they aren't, less mass is better, all other things being equal. And as you can easily see on any S tonearm, you can simply draw a straight line from the head shell to the tonearm bearing and you'd have identical angles everywhere, but wind up with less mass.

[@ellaskins]

No worries, the more info we can put togeather the better . Thanks johnathan

[@mottledbrain]

Dual turntables were my introduction to audio equipment in the early to mid 70s. Nice lightweight arms with an angled head. In addition my latest Dual (vintage 1983) has -a tracking- an anti-skating adjustment that helps minimize the wear due to the natural angle of the head. I'm sure most watchers already know these things, but you *DID* ask for comments!

[@guillermocazal7323]

Correct! nothing better than a Linear Tracking TT.

[@viking1au]

Part way there, but should be using special alignment protractor for both aems to get the angle correct. There is a special protractor for the Technics and you can bet there is one for the Vestax, -- In fact all turntables, for the most part, offer them. After market items available also.

[@djfrenchman]

My Stanton is a straight arm with the headshell showing markers for correct cartridge angle. So its a correct headshell although you can use any headshell using the same angle. I set my Shure M44-7's. to this. Works great. So my cartridge has always been angled as you show on your video.

[@jackstoffels5045]

For the 2 types of tone arms its neccesery to make aligment of the cartridge with pro tractor gauge. its even so important as the counter weight setting and anti skating.

[@sneskid78]

This combination greatly reduces tracking error, which is required if you're listening on an audiophile level. The tracking error on a DJ table that doesn't have the S arm is much greater, which also means more mistracking distortion. especially in the inner grooves. This is also why you should never use an elliptical stylus in a straight arm DJ table.

[@mhagain]

A straight tonearm with the cartridge properly aligned will trace the same arc as an S-shaped tonearm. Once you've got that right there will be differences due to differing rigidity and differing resonances, as well as the overall basic quality of the arms and other factors.

[@hairoftehdog]

Sad to see so many people undermine the simple yet brilliant engineering of a S shaped tone arm... It was developed at the PEAK of turntable technology and utilization. Simply put, if you spend over $300 on a turntable and it DOESN'T have a S shaped tone arm, you're getting ripped off.

[@ECgod77]

It's funny, because on my Technics ca. 1980s P mount, the cartridge is actually held at that perfect angle to the record where you plug in the cartridge , and that's attached to the straight tone arm.

[@49kasey]

@freezazoid What I meant in my comment was that the shape of the arm is irrelevant. What matters is the relative offset of the headshell, what the cartridge is mounted to. And you're right, that cartridge mount is just plain sloppy. The right position, angle and settings are all very critical for best performance.

[@nwansten]

I copied this from the Stanton Website where it talks about cartridge setup: Some scratch DJs will angle their cartridges 23 degrees on the headshell. Note: Angle outward on S-shaped tonearms (this will emulate the angle of a straight tone-arm and help the needle hold the groove better). Angle inward on straight tonearms this will emulate the placement of an S-arm for fidelity (sound quality) Side note: Some people on here need to grow up. Dont be dicks! this guys here to help and ask advice.

[@dawaba58]

I think I shall never see, anything more beautiful than a "s" shaped tonearm.

[@guillermocazal7323]

Because Technics did not make turntables with DJ's in my mind but with audiophiles in mind.DJ's simply realized the potential of that model and started using it in the early 70's.

[@evanrandall1675]

I saw several tests performed about the wearing down of vinyls through needles. It seemed to be a myth

[@traenq]

I use straight arm pdx3000s and have my shure m44-7s positioned at a SLIGHT angle inwards, too. btw: I don't want to sound like a smartass, but AFAIK the singular form of "styli" is "stylus" .)

[@guillermocazal7323]

Correct. It's called ADC type for straight arms.it does the work for you so you can keep your cartridge straight on the headshell.voilá!

[@guillermocazal7323]

The tracking force has to be equal to the pressure you are using on the cartridge so if you cartridge is at 2.0 g the anti skate must be equal to that. Now if you are a DJ the anti skate is used in a different way.You get a groove-less record and adjust the anti skate till the cartridge does not move to any side on the record.

[@taineasy]

Generally a Straight tonearm with angled cartridge mount has much less tracking error. S shaped tone arms came into vogue so they could give the arm length and still fit in a smaller unit. They both work but high end units use straight arms.

[@charlottewhyte9804]

I only have ever had strait line on equipment I have bought.Never really knew about this. Never had aa particular problem I can recall.

[@darko82]

It's correct, indeed. DJ turntables have a really really really short straight tonearm [made for scratching] which is far under the correct overhang. If you turn the cartridge to 23 degrees - which is the angle of normal straight tonearm - you actually do more harm to your record than using it straight. When you're using a DJ turntable with short straight arm, your only choice is to use the cartridge straight and stick to a conical stylus.

[@ReboyGTR]

The MK1 was designed with the audiophile in mind. MK2 and onwards were aimed at DJ's,but were still a good audiophile turntable. I'm not sure but i've heard that straight arms are better for audiophiles because it allows the needle to be properly angled to go deeper into the groves of the record.

[@Dom303]

I came to the conclusion it is best to have them straight. If you angle them inwards it can give a better tracking angle on the outer part of the record only to distort it further when moving inwards nearer the center label.

[@IgorPanovComposer]

Violins & women and nice tonearm too are all S shape. Aesthetic, my dear.

[@ow201]

If you buy S-shaped tone arms you can always adjust the angle on your cartridge so that it is inline with the tone arm assembly. It then behaves like a straight tone arm.

[@paulhanlon595]

Don't see the problem everyone making a huge fuss over cart angles I use straight arm tables and have ortofon concordes mounted to my tone arms the counter weights are set correctly with the right amount of weight going to the carts they have been set up like this from day one and till this day my records still sound as good as they did when i first bought them the key is i use spherical needles as they are alot kinder to my vinyl with having straight tone arms compared to if i was to have a pair of concordes with elliptical needles on them they would rip through my vinyl straight away no questions asked so it's not a case of what's right or wrong it's a case of having you're tone arm set up right with the right amount of down weight on you're needles if it's set up correctly you will be fine.

[@glen3351]

good idea, I do exactly the opposite for technics s type arm for scratching, seems jump so much less

[@StephenFinkNRP]

If you had the correct type headshell on the straight tonearm you might be happier with its position on the album.

[@Dom303]

The Shure WhiteLabel cart has adjustable overhang from 50 - 54mm. They come out of the box set to 52mm (standard for S arms). These are the only all-in-one cart i'd use on str8 arm decks, cos you can pull them back to the required 50mm. There is no adjustment for angle on them.

[@sneskid78]

Yes, but look at what is on the end of that straight arm, vs. the shorter straight arm on the turntable featured here.

[@BooyaBirdy]

I agree. Str8 for scratching. S for general play and mixing. Just take a look at Shure's WhiteLabel Cart. It has a angle adjustment, but since I have a set of S-armed ta-tas I leave my angles at 0.

[@pingshakl]

OMG!! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! There is no good or bad tonearm regarding S shape or straight. The problem is your headshell on the straight arm is the WRONG ONE. That's all.

[@marktaylor7162]

Yup. Straight tonearms are designed to be used with an angled headshell.

[@demonufo]

+pingshakl Exactly. The tracking angle alone on the straight arm tells us that this guy has no business making such videos. Total muppet.

[@Reticuli]

Audiophile strait arms are the same effective length as S-arms, and so you use them with an angled headshell. DJ strait tonearms are underhung and thus shorter and are meant to be used with a strait headshell.

[@-frozenmx-2750]

You're right,it's solidy moulded.

[@RumbleBones]

As long as the cartridge and stylus sit properly in the groove, doesn't matter if straight or angled headshell. An angled headshell would be better for the straight arm, but a straight headshell can work if it's able to be setup properly. If not, don't do it. It's all in correct tracking setup.

[@Reticuli]

Impossible to get hifi tracking on an underhund DJ strait arm.

[@jasonk2732]

Your straight arm head shell is the wrong one. Straight arms use an angled head shell and the shape use the straight head shell. You twisting the cartridge on the straight arm with the straight head shell will only be a guess on the proper angle.

[@viking1au]

There are tools/ graphs made for alignment; some are free downloads from audiophile sites & can be tailored to the brand of tone arm. -- Anti-skate settings can have an influence also.

[@6thCreated]

Oh and I forgot to say that I have seen straight tone arms on almost every extremely "high end" turntable that can cost up to $5000+ USD. The kind that are made for hardcore audio files. Not sure what that means though.

[@sneskid78]

I know this is old, but I'll reply anyway.. First of all, casual listeners (in this case, record collectors and DJs are a completely different "bunch" so to speak. In short, a DJ needs a table that can take the abuse, while a casual listener wants something that sounds better, but can't take the abuse. That said, the straight arms of non-DJ tables are actually MUCH longer than the one featured here. Also, the headshell is mounted at an angle.

[@49kasey]

@SoundOut260 As long as we're talking about a pivoted tonearm, it will swing in an arc across the record and the cartridge/stylus can be truly tangent to the groove and give lowest distortion at only one point. The proper cartridge mounting will result in the stylus being set to the best compromise, being nearly tangent at two points. This can only be done using an overhang protractor. That's what that little white plastic thing is that comes with all Technics turntables.

[@irlandani4249]

You've mounted the wrong headshell on the straight tonearm. Angled headshell will bring the stylus in the correct position

[@cannyfocus]

Can't imagine how to agree with that. The straight arm has placed it's angle around 20° or so in the Headshell, while the S-shape arm has that angle placed 'before' already in the arm, -so the alignment of any needle and the pos. in the groove is the generally spoken really exactly the same at both arms of course, isn't it ? So also elliptical needles does work.. / they are alligned at those straight arms in the same way in the groove as in S-shaped arms.

[@patatino666]

No matter about the shape of the arm. The needle will have the same angle with every fantasy shape.

[@Dom303]

Another point is (see Vestax manual) the o/h is 50mm as opposed to 52mm required by Technics. This is one of the reasons why concorde carts aren't ideal for str8 arm decks, cos they are set at 52mm. This is why i would choose the OM type Ortofon carts as they are more adjustable. However, IMO i don't think that 2mm difference is much cause for concern and in real-world terms putting the cart as far forwards seems to visually give a better tracking angle.

[@blickblocks]

With a spherical tip, there will be wear on either, it's inherent. Even with a linear tracking turntable. With an elliptical tip, there will be more wear with the straight arm because it doesn't track as accurately as the curved. With a linear tracking turntable there won't be any more wear than with a spherical. It mostly depends on the specific design of the turntable, however. It's not about the shape of the arm but it's point of contact and rotation.

[@CyberdyneSystemsSkynet]

No, I do not think that that is a good idea, what I see with the angled arm is that the closer your get to the center of the record, the more skewed that needle will become,if it's conical that I suppose it doesn't matter, but if it's an elliptical needle than having the cartridge like that will be like drifting in a car. I think that having the needle centered will be the best approach as this allows the counterweight evenly distribute pressure throughout the bottom of the grove.

[@reyzuna]

the main point of the diamond is to get the vibration from left and right of the grooves, if your stylus or diamond is off it will decrease the sound of the left or right channels, if it's set correctly into the groove it will pick up good vibration so the sound won't make any distortion right? the straight arm is a bit off if you put the needle according to its headshell, so i think it's recommended that you do a slightly bent like you did from the left so that the diamond left and right side seat properly in the groove, but I don't think that it will dig or worn out either left and right side channel because the stylus is design just to slide even you put more weight on the tonearm

[@RadioKilla07]

S or J arm at low mass is better all around, with proper settings and good cartridge, you can perform just as good. The DMC is a great example short straight arm is only good for heavy cueing "scratching" thats about it. it wrecks your grooves very fast being that the stylus sits in the groove very akward to compensate with the overhang. In my opinion thats not a great wager at all..

[@illia2492]

Folks! The guy just wrongly installed not suitable cartridge on a straight arm. (Cartridges are same, but are for S-shaped arm) Those designed for straight arms already have bend. That's all

[@timstamps5281]

You only covered playing the record in the first part, which would be equivalent to playing the first or second song on a 12" LP side. It becomes a different thing altogether when you are playing grooves closer to the center. When you play grooves toward the center, you would need to reposition the angle of the straight-arm stylus by turning it in the other direction. In the '70s there was at least one turntable that would automatically change the position of the cartridge as it moved toward the center. Then there are linear-tracking turntables, made to correct for this, where the stylus is moved across in a linear fashion, the same way as the record cutter with a lathe screw inside underneath the turntable, but linear-tracking turntables have other problems.

[@durrwin]

Straight tone arm = scratching S-shaped = mixing obviously you could do both (mixing/scratching) with both sets of tone arm i just think they are optimized for that like styli (spherical= scratching, elliptical = mixing) but still can use both for anything really :D

[@djsyks1]

I dont think theres much differance at all in record wear or scratchin,i scratch with my 1210s and it dosnt skip at all,if the cartriges are set up right s shaped tone arms hold just as good as str8 tone arms

[@musicglobal5908]

its good for playing scratched and warn out records it stops the needle scipping grooves !

[@physicmad]

just to note my M44-7 has a Spherical point so no mater what angle the needle is at the contact area is the same at different angles between (23 degrees)

[@6thCreated]

From what I know straight tone arms skip less, which make them better for scratching and battling. S-type tone arms have higher quality sound and are better for mixing(or sampling).

[@viking1au]

@marcelcruzeiro Hi; You may have a little hunt but go to the Vinyl Engine web site & click on Protractors. There are numerous protractors there, for various arms, turntables etc. You may have to read 1 or 2 articles submitted by Seb and choose. If memory serves o.k., there is an item specific for what you look for. If you have trouble getting onto the Vinyl Engine, and are diverted to Google, it happens to me also. Wait 1 or 2 days. --Find Seb on KZbin. He has an item on protractors. Regards.

[@robertavila3328]

I noticed that if your straight tone arm stylus is too left or too right and you have an older lp like an original pressing of Hot Rocks or Abbey Road etc.. You'll hear ticks and pops more on the left or right. Using a protractor will set the needle on a slight angle for the straight arm it minimizes the pops and ticks equally. Just an observation!

[@tur74d56]

The bent tone arm is better for playing music the striaght arm is better for mixing,scrating, you dont want to damage those cardriges they arent cheap to buy! i know.

[@BKJ-88]

Straight arms remove the need for anti skate and require less weight on the cart to stick in the groove. You should only use spherical stylus on these tables (DJ Carts) due to the angle as it tracks inside grooves. S arms are better if you want to set your table up for HI FI use with a elliptical cart.

[@jaydublis]

I would turn the needle slightly on the straight arm then tighten it up

[@Reticuli]

They're underhung arms, not audiophile ones.

[@RA7]

my str8 arms have angled carts, they don't ever skip, and I havnt had problems with wear on either the needle or the vinyl

[@hifigeek009]

You need to move one screw back and one screw forward on the straight arm head shell so the cartridge is at a slight angle pointing inwards towards the centre. The Stanton head shell for their straight arm models has a guide line so you can set the angle right. Best regards, hifigeek

[@ken2936]

I own a Stanton STR8-100 in perfect condition (bought it new years ago, 2001), and there aren't any guidelines on the headshell. It came with three headshells. One factory installed on the tonearm with a factory installed Stanton D5200 SK cartridge. The other two headshells came in a fine plastic case. One had the same factory installed cartridge, and the other without a cartridge. It still looks new, and functions like new so I have no reason to buy another.

[@fezza96]

thanks so much for the video! im looking to buy some VESTAX PDX 3000,but wasn't shure about tone arms. So if you were getting VESTAX PDX 3000 is it worth getting the S-shaped arm for the extra,or just stick with the straigt??

[@ellaskins]

Funny you should say that, i once had to re wire the tone arm, the only thing i have never replaced is the circut board, everything else i have pulled apart. all the best johnathan

[@guillermocazal7323]

For obvious reasons.the CD had arrived in '82 and from that moment on the sales of turntables dropped in Asia, Europe & North America that is a fact.DJ's were the only ones who were purchasing the item in large amounts around the world as there were no CD players being made for professional use in clubs at the time.

[@gotham61]

Styli is the plural of stylus. You can have one stylus, and a pair of styli.

[@MikeGervasi]

I would think a properly setup Anti Skate would make the "extra" wear from a straight tonearm minimal.

[@forwardsdrawkcab]

Yes, but the arm is WAY too short too, so it'll still be a p.o.s.

[@rybred87]

when i got my last needles it said not to angle them with a straight arm but i dont no y. It seems like a good itea to me. good vid. straight arms do wear out vinyl faster but if your scratching who cares.

[@DjAdam16]

I like both styles hehehe They both look nice and i really dont have any problems... Altough.....i gatta admin the S style one looks wayyyyy more STYLISH as i would say ! But really...both are very nice !

[@dj0100]

I think it's a great idea and will be doing this to my str8 150's. Cheers!

[@Nyiddle]

S looks a lot prettier. That's my 2 cents.

[@tomb8430]

Would it be correct to say the cartridge at the point of the stylus needs to be perpendicular to the spindle half way in of the record play? If that is the case, it seems the length of the tonearm is important, as is the angle of the head or cartridge, not the shape of the arm itself.

[@tobymummert3035]

Newsflash! This video is not for the serious audiophile!!!

[@49kasey]

@MrDemilord Best thing would be to find a small stereo shop that sells new and used stuff and find someone older who's interested in helping you. He can set up a decent affordable combination for you and explain things. Basic rule of thumb is to handle your records only by the edges and clean them with a carbon fiber record brush. Use a stylus brush, not your finger. Belt drive tables are the audiophiles' choice. Japanese cartridges rule. DJ cartridges are like the low-priced 1960's standard.

[@viking1au]

@marcelcruzeiro Notice another guy from vinyl engine has something on the tube also, next to Seb (MBV) showing the v.e. web address. Most important, there are numerous protractors there you can download for free. --Most will have a size or measurement showing, for you to check before use.Print out size is important, resize by % if needed. - This will not apply not speed test stroboscopes, only the protractors. --- Rgds.

[@79c15]

Everyone seem to have issues with straight tone arms because they compare everything to cheep turntables. Every single stright tone arm has a angles headshel from what i see. Also the counterweight has a more direct effect on strieght tone arms, also the headshell and cartridge can be readjusted. If your angle is wrong its your own damn fault

[@awbzerver]

You're joking right? You don't put a straight headshell on a straight tonearm. An angled headshell is needed.

[@michaelaustin6699]

High the debate about tone arm strait or s-shaped it make no difference to to record ware if the cartridge is not set up pronely then you will get wear in the record, you should get a alignment protractor for the cartridge, the strait arm the cartridge screws should be loosened of a bit and the cartridge moved slightly to the left so the cartridge is at the same angle as on the s-shaped arm, because on the strait arm has not got a bend in the end of it, nearly all highest tone arms are strait

[@AutomatikSystematik]

The straight arm is better for scratching but horrible for sound quality, record and stylus wear because it can never be aligned correctly to the grooves on the record. Tracking error is massive because of the relatively short length of the tonearm no matter what head shell used with it. You can align the cartridge at the beginning of the record but it will become way out of alignment towards the end of the record, and vise versa. The better arm for sound quality, record and stylus wear is clearly the "S" shaped tonearm because with it, the cartridge can be more correctly aligned to the record grooves.

[@pcallas66]

Interesting take on this.

[@SDoGG420]

I play a show with a buddy that adjusts his cartridge on the s shape (1200) to ride like a straight, and I have nothing but problems with my records skipping (some records only been played maybe 4 times). I've had the debate with him because they use 7s and I use 12s with weights. Is it the cartridge? (Never really have problems with my white labels) the fact that I use newer records compared to their more "broken in" records? or the fact that the table might be more adjusted for 7s even though he does play 12s as well or maybe the weights??? HELP

[@slink132001]

I thought the sound came from the outer wall and the bottom of the groove, not the two walls.

[@blackdakkon]

My Numark TT200 manual instructs: "the screws should always be aligned perpendicular to the head shell (any angle may increase "record burn.")"

[@boffsta]

id say that you were right on that

[@richobiquankenobi7499]

For a beginning turntabilist would S arm or Straight arm be better?

[@viking1au]

@marcelcruzeiro @marcelcruzeiro Found Seb on the tube for you. I searched Turntable Arm Alighnment and found the article - Show me your tracking Error, Posted by SEBatVE. ----Regards.

[@charlottewhyte9804]

I woud not tamper with what manufacture has set up

[@woabeatz9717]

Which sratch betterm

[@bradt.3555]

Thats the wrong headshell for the straight arm!!! it should be angled. Straight shell for an S arm, angled for a straight arm. Straight in straight will NEVER align properly, unless you really angle cartridge in shell, probably more than possible.

[@ACCOUNTANTB]

The S shape is better to avoid wearing the vinyl and the needle.....cause is more in paralel position to the vinyl rail - so it means more long last either to the vinyl and needle. However, for scratching the strait arm is better....

[@ronaldsantosjapan]

Would using an angled headshell remove the faster-record-wear problem? ADC LMH-1 shell for instance.

[@horsey604]

The angle is the same if the cartridge on the straight is turned

[@Reticuli]

Not on an underhung strait DJ arm.

[@CoolTim44]

hey man i like you videos . but i like to know how to line up the stylus cartage with out a pro tracktor . thanks

[@Lordoflarp_s1krr]

the stanton sk250 already done that the cart already is angled and its really a good idea i've been having mine for 4 years and 1 of the needle only got messed up cuz my dad touched my turntable and tried to put it away so it got caught on the slipmat and the needle broke so i have to buy new stylii but its really a good vid and good advice

[@brettland]

Good vid i cant comment on what is better as i have an s shaped tone arms and I've not used a straight arm before one thing i would say is when you look at a straight arm turntable it dose look like it would be harder to knock it out of the groove. i do agree with vinyl for ever

[@fetthunderdome]

You mounted a s tonearm head shell on a straight tonearm which cause the non correct alignment of the needle in relation to the grooves. That may cause distortion and wear. If you use a straight tonearm headshell the needle get the correct angle like the s tonearm