Email vs Capitalism, or, Why We Can't Have Nice Things - Dylan Beattie - NDC Oslo 2023

  Рет қаралды 279,168

NDC Conferences

NDC Conferences

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 433
@DylanBeattie
@DylanBeattie Жыл бұрын
Folks, the thing missing from the end of the talk is one person's email address, which I thought was funny, and wanted to share with the audience, but didn't want to put on KZbin. It's about 45 seconds of content. That's it. No massive conspiracy. No secret discussion of Google, Outlook, etc... it's was just a fun little joke to end on that I didn't want to end up on KZbin. No, I'm not going to tell you what it is. But it involves the top-level domain for Austria, in case you have a hunch what it might be. ;) Oh, and those of you saying "but where's the bit about capitalism?" It's the bit of the talk where I talk about unsolicited commercial emails, spam filtering, the influence of marketing on digital communication... y'know?
@KimKozak
@KimKozak Жыл бұрын
No massive conspiracy? Ahhhh.... Where are we going to get enough anger to find motivation to stop turning a blind eye to everything?
@belst_
@belst_ Жыл бұрын
one the slide with the zoho email where they say, relay not allowed, you accidently still had the protonmail host part in the rcpt to.
@vvill-ga
@vvill-ga Жыл бұрын
I think the + feature is fairly common, I know I've used it on Microsoft 365 at least
@bobnob4393
@bobnob4393 Жыл бұрын
Thank you for that. Really wanted to like but you already had 69 of them so couldn't
@VaibhavKaushal-qt9pr
@VaibhavKaushal-qt9pr Жыл бұрын
I am so not going to tell anyone else about this video because doing that would enable them to understand email so easily and I would be jealous of them! Just kidding. Totally gonaa share it with my peers. This is the most astoundingly simple explanation of email....kinda like the one you had with "Plain Text" which I absolutely loved!
@rightwingsafetysquad9872
@rightwingsafetysquad9872 Жыл бұрын
I wish we could go back to when the Air Force threatened people for sending spam.
@irgendwieanders2121
@irgendwieanders2121 Жыл бұрын
Use the navy - still a large air force and they can float airfields around the world...
@goldfishpartyy
@goldfishpartyy Жыл бұрын
Yeah dude just tell the Navy to do it 😂
@KainniaK
@KainniaK Жыл бұрын
If only somebody back then would have invented reusable proof of work we could have fixed the problem from the beginning.
@rodh1404
@rodh1404 Жыл бұрын
@@irgendwieanders2121 Send in the Marines!
@jrstf
@jrstf Жыл бұрын
I don't consider it spam if the from address is for real and not changed with each email sent.
@dfs-comedy
@dfs-comedy Жыл бұрын
I ran an email security / antispam company for 19 years. We saw the most horrible abuses of standards you could imagine, and had lots of special-case code to handle them. (I'm now happily retired...)
@dfs-comedy
@dfs-comedy Жыл бұрын
Haha, as I watch this video, I recall the endless arguments I had with people who "validated" email addresses with code that rejected valid email addresses.
@sasukesarutobi3862
@sasukesarutobi3862 Жыл бұрын
If there's one thing you can guarantee about standards, it's that no matter how clearly and precisely you define anything, you will still get a raft of different implementations from companies who all insist that they follow the standard.
@vibue2415
@vibue2415 Жыл бұрын
I started programming last year. A Mail validity checker would seem to me like a bunch of if/elif/and/or statements (like a logical statement) and to me it seems not that difficult. But when I’ve learned something in programming then things are hole lot more complicated! What is it with email validity checker?
@photinodecay
@photinodecay Жыл бұрын
@@vibue2415 it needs to be recursive and it's VERY complex. Most people who try to write them have also never read the standard. Probably don't even know it exists.
@snowwsquire
@snowwsquire Жыл бұрын
@@photinodecay i've seen an email validator that didnt work cause the email was on a subdomain
@Corinth1311
@Corinth1311 Жыл бұрын
"Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying 'End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH', the paint wouldn't even have time to dry." Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time
@DylanBeattie
@DylanBeattie Жыл бұрын
Yes! That's it. I thought it might have been Douglas Adams but couldn't remember for certain where it was from...
@wrongtown
@wrongtown Жыл бұрын
GNU Terry Pratchett
@electroflame6188
@electroflame6188 Жыл бұрын
@@wrongtown GNU Terry Pratchett
@ohitshammy
@ohitshammy Жыл бұрын
@@electroflame6188GNU Terry Pratchett
@Woolbox
@Woolbox Жыл бұрын
Enlightening and entertaining as always! Minor nitpick: When you telnet'ed into your Zoho SMTP server, you supplied a Proton Mail recipient, and rightfully got a "relaying disallowed" message (28:45)
@bripbrap
@bripbrap Жыл бұрын
I was just about to comment this!
@Iamdebug
@Iamdebug Жыл бұрын
From what I can tell this domain is installed at all these providers. You can do that and it's not an issue but whatever DNS responds with will be your "primary" provider. This is why the telnet to the providers, it forces the initial connection open to each provider.
@Woolbox
@Woolbox Жыл бұрын
@@Iamdebug The Zoho SMTP server would not (and should not) accept incoming emails to a Proton recipient. Otherwise, it would be an open relay. A somewhat common misconfiguration back when, others than service providers, ran mail servers.
@Iamdebug
@Iamdebug Жыл бұрын
That's not at all what I said. Nothing in the footage I saw showed Proton at Zoho. All domains are installed in all providers and providers are isolated, they simply don't care if another provider has your domains also installed. If DNS doesn't forward you to it the other systems essentially doesn't exist. @@Woolbox
@antoinelatrille9542
@antoinelatrille9542 Жыл бұрын
I love how you demistify email. From a techie point of view I always heard more senior people telling me how hard it was to understand email and smtp and dkim and so on, and I went to believe that. You just broke that apart plus added an history lesson above. Thanks a lot!
@dinoscheidt
@dinoscheidt Жыл бұрын
Dylan is great, but don‘t fall for the Dunning Krueger Effect. This talk scraped one atom layer of a one ton block of email mess 😮‍💨
@JimBob1937
@JimBob1937 Жыл бұрын
@@dinoscheidt , definitely. In-depth email configuration of the many hacks, bugs, dealing with misconfiguration of other servers, and so on, could fill hundreds of hours of video.
@Objectified
@Objectified Жыл бұрын
He didn't break it apart. He tied together a thin layer of narrative that fits his presentation.
@riecknicholas
@riecknicholas Жыл бұрын
MKBHD's video of the secret history of the internet is an excellent additional "reading"
@CottidaeSEA
@CottidaeSEA Жыл бұрын
Email hurts me emotionally whenever I have to work it.
@Felinaro
@Felinaro Жыл бұрын
About dark-themed email clients: the most important thing, designers must remember: its unacceptable to define color just for fonts or background. If you are altering colors, you MUST specify BOTH of them: background AND foreground. Both or neither! Because you dont know whick colors are default in viewer.
@bryanreynolds4243
@bryanreynolds4243 Жыл бұрын
Back in the day, I had a richard for a team lead. I wanted to go to every site I had control of and give him fore and back colors as the same.
@PhysicsGamer
@PhysicsGamer Жыл бұрын
You also don't know which one the customer's software is configured to override. Could be both, even. So even if you specify both it could look totally different.
@Carewolf
@Carewolf Жыл бұрын
Better yet: Dont specify either in email. Respect your clients.
@jeffrelf
@jeffrelf 9 ай бұрын
Amen, @@Carewolf.
@gosnooky
@gosnooky 8 ай бұрын
I'm a dinosaur, and I had all my system colors set to a custom dark theme back in the Windows98 to XP days, before it became a thing. Easily 75% of web form input fields had the color or background explicitly set to the default black and white, respectively. This made everything white on white or black on black. This was so irritating, and I dealt with it for years. Thankfully things improved.
@MatthiasYReich
@MatthiasYReich Жыл бұрын
When you mentioned the problem with dark mode, all I could think was “well, let’s stop with the annoying formatted ‘pretty’ emails, and have them just send text”. I’m already annoyed with logos etc in emails I receive
@BenCaesar
@BenCaesar Жыл бұрын
Dylan is amazing at teaching. I know nothing about this but could follow along and enjoy. Really powerful skill
@SpaceShot
@SpaceShot Жыл бұрын
This was wonderful. Dylan is becoming our modern day Internet historian. We sorely need talks these that explain why we are at the place we are. At once i am always in awe of how simplicity worked in the early Internet and how we are forced to keep the thing going on the face of threats of all kinds. Thank you.
@colbyboucher6391
@colbyboucher6391 Жыл бұрын
...God I wish the era of people using _the internet itself_ as social media would come back. Neocities is pretty much carrying the torch by making everyone's little garbage HTML website discoverable.
@binchamers
@binchamers Жыл бұрын
ActivityPub and all the new federated social media is people finally realising that having social networks be centralised is a terrible idea! I would really love to see what Dylan's thoughts on it and the networks built on top of it (Mastodon, Lemmy, Pixelfed, etc.) are
@masaufuku1735
@masaufuku1735 Жыл бұрын
IMO Email is a perfect demonstration of why ActivityPub can't accomplish what a lot of folks hope it can. If it gained real popularity, the costs of running servers would quickly outpace the capacity of independent not for profit servers - in fact, it's that's already happened with just the influx from twitter's bullshit, resulting in some servers shutting down entirely while many others closed registrations - and it wouldn't take all that long before a handful of profit driven service providers were hosting the vast majority of accounts, just like we see today with email. And those handful of providers would begin to put up wall after wall to block small self-hosted instances from interacting with their users, using (rightly or wrongly) the specter of spam, harassment and accountability as justification - just as they do with email. That isn't to say that abandoning siloed social networks in favor of ActivityPub based networks wouldn't be a net positive, merely that the benefits of doing so under capitalism have been vastly overstated by a lot of evangalists. Email would definitely be a lot less useful if it were strictly controlled by a single profit-driven multinational corporation instead of loosely controlled by a handful of them - but it would be vastly better if we got rid of the profit motive that drives those multinational corporations to be so shitty in the first place.
@chosenone6158
@chosenone6158 Жыл бұрын
After suckerbergs entry into fediverse with instagram threads, I'm not so sure we won't have Activitypub messed up as well in some time.
@katrinabryce
@katrinabryce Жыл бұрын
In practice, email is a Microsoft/Google duopoly with Yahoo having still a surprisingly large market share.
@climatechangedoesntbargain9140
@climatechangedoesntbargain9140 Жыл бұрын
Matrix is a protocol for federated messaging
@morgan0
@morgan0 Жыл бұрын
i hope someone forks lemmy so it’s not controlled by genocide-deniers, because the idea is good, just the people behind it at the moment are not
@olehomelchenko
@olehomelchenko Жыл бұрын
23:33 small correction, Protonmail has the same feature as Gmail, you can add "aliases" after + sign before @ sign and they all will all effectively redirect mail to the same address
@cbrunnkvist
@cbrunnkvist Жыл бұрын
I noted that discrepancy too; "sending" would of course work if he registered "rocket" and then just addressed rocket+whatever, but I suppose the point of the segment was to show that a MAILBOX cannot have a "+" in, and he didn't want to (=strictly, one can claim "shouldn't be forced to-") register just a single word address. Brings up another question: does it still map +x to "Label: x" in the GMail app, and does +x+y+z map to "Label: x", "Label: y", "Label: z"?
@arthurdent8086
@arthurdent8086 Жыл бұрын
Each time I see one of your talks online, I am ever more impressed with just how much of a wealth of knowledge you offer, and I thoroughly enjoy learning from you!
@jayishappy
@jayishappy Жыл бұрын
Whatever the subject is, I know I'm gonna have a great time watching your presentations
@Keisuki
@Keisuki Жыл бұрын
"And that's the end of the bit that's going on youtube" The person uploading this: "Now, that's where you're wrong"
@IanBLacy
@IanBLacy Жыл бұрын
It does end there, it ends exactly there. Was it cut down after the fact?
@Keisuki
@Keisuki Жыл бұрын
@@IanBLacy It used to not end there. They must have edited it. I don't remember a thing of what he said after this point though
@mr.rabbit5642
@mr.rabbit5642 7 ай бұрын
​@@Keisuki Nooooooo 😢 I gotta look for the recordings elsewhere I guess :(( Was kinda curious why nobody's commenting on the cut tho
@MCasterAnd
@MCasterAnd Жыл бұрын
I find it really funny that E-mail wants to be SO backwards compatible to the point where they are using 7-bit ascii. Yet, if you try to send an email, you will find that half of your friends will not receive it because it was flagged as spam and silently dropped, for some of them the HTML won't be rendered properly, for some it has ended up in the spam folder, and others can't read it because the text is in black and they use dark mode on their phone. Brilliant. Yeah, we REALLY needed that ascii 7 with the MIME work-around... lol
@zamplify
@zamplify Жыл бұрын
There's a difference between sending email and sending email over the Internet.
@gFamWeb
@gFamWeb Жыл бұрын
@@zamplify The Internet is the global network of computers. All email goes over the Internet. I believe you mean something like Web-based clients and such.
@ketchup901
@ketchup901 Жыл бұрын
@@gFamWeb Not all email goes over the internet. You can send email on your LAN or even on the same computer without routing it through the internet.
@richmondrobinson3259
@richmondrobinson3259 Жыл бұрын
@@gFamWeb Local email services that never reach the public internet are a real thing.
@Mavendow
@Mavendow Жыл бұрын
@@ketchup901 The internet refers to all computers which are capable of networked communication. That's why it's called InterNet. InterNetwork. Inter- meaning "between" and -network meaning "to connect." It's the thing between computers we use to connect. The correct term is the WAN, or Wide Area Network.
@ya64
@ya64 Жыл бұрын
I cracked up when the screenshot with the dark mode came up! I been there, creating emails templates, making sure that it looks good on every email client that the company uses and then the QA guy just destroys you because he's using dark mode. We had to export every asset again with transparency. Fun times!
@Dev-sl7fo
@Dev-sl7fo Жыл бұрын
img { background-color: white; }
@leftaroundabout
@leftaroundabout Жыл бұрын
@@Dev-sl7fo arghhhhNOOO... it burnss our eyesessss!! Seriously, I will never understand how people are happy with bright backgrounds. Everything should be dark by default, and then for reading long texts or in bright sunlight one should simply invert the colours and use e-ink displays.
@LeifNelandDk
@LeifNelandDk Жыл бұрын
I would love if our national TV dr.dk would enable dark mode. You sit in your cosy living room with dimmed light, select their app, and bam!! 60" of #FFFFFF blinding light with a tiny logo fills the entire room.
@leftaroundabout
@leftaroundabout Жыл бұрын
@@LeifNelandDk du burde se på NRK i stedet, der er bakgrunnen en fin blå! Bonus: alle snakker mye tydeligere enn på dansk tv...
@error9900
@error9900 Жыл бұрын
Excellent talk. Very entertaining AND very informative.
@LucasOe
@LucasOe Жыл бұрын
Beautiful spam choir!
@blazed-world
@blazed-world Жыл бұрын
Awesome presentation, very lively and informative! 🔥
@SuperSmashDolls
@SuperSmashDolls Жыл бұрын
The guy who said "The net interprets censorship as damage" being universally censored by the Internet at large is hilarious and depressing in equal measure.
@jamesphillips2285
@jamesphillips2285 Жыл бұрын
49:00 seriously considering parsing HTML e-mail because looking through that crap gets tedious. I have been resisting HTML e-mail because I feel it weakens any security guarantees of signed messages (since different clients render HTML differently).
@ped7g
@ped7g Жыл бұрын
HTML mails were/are huge mistake... Usually doesn't even deliver on the look-good side, and ruined so much stuff. Just because some people think using few extra asterisk and ascii-art tables is NOT enough to emphasise text. :( (also my email client renders them in a way you wouldn't expect if you haven't been using text terminal ever in your life... yes, I'm reading my emails in text mode with alpine email client and html mails are sort of stripped down to text-only form for me, in nice green font over black background of text terminal)
@jamesphillips2285
@jamesphillips2285 Жыл бұрын
@@ped7g When I was still on dial-up lynx was my favorite browser. It was like 5x faster than any other browser because it was not downloading superfluous crap. I finally moved to graphical browsers in the 2010's.
@MrDadidou
@MrDadidou Жыл бұрын
Amazing talk through and through, with one remark: 55:40 this is misleading because Gmail is such a behemoth in the mail world that it's starting to setup standards that everyone has to comply with.
@_skyyskater
@_skyyskater Жыл бұрын
My first real job was writing HTML marketing emails for American Express, New York Times, and Time Warner at a digital creative agency called Digitas back in 2004. Although I was greatful for the job and they were very nice to work with, writing these emails was the most boring and tedious job I'd ever had. And even then, that HTML was out of date and limited. Certainly interesting.
@lubricustheslippery5028
@lubricustheslippery5028 Жыл бұрын
And when you get an e-mail with html. You directly se it some crap that is not specifically written to you and immediately deletes it.
@hueco5002
@hueco5002 Жыл бұрын
I’ve been in marketing automation since 2011. Nothing has changed - emails still have to contain bloated, dated html that makes accessibility devices cry. Still doing client specific fukkery because Microsoft.
@victor-ling
@victor-ling Жыл бұрын
Using plus '+' in an email address is not unique to Google. Office 365, Protonmail and Fastmail all support using plus in the email address the same way. (I am not sure about Zoho mail because I have never used it)
@hounddog5
@hounddog5 Жыл бұрын
Zoho supports plus as well.
@lyleseaman4414
@lyleseaman4414 Жыл бұрын
It's called "the sendmail hack" because it's that old
@boomknuffelaar
@boomknuffelaar Жыл бұрын
Great talk! Had a good laugh, and some flashbacks..
@rustkitty
@rustkitty Жыл бұрын
ProtonMail supports plus addressing too, they just call it "+alias". Also they have this feature called "catch-all address" which is a more general version of the same thing, because every address you didn't already register for that domain will be delivered to the catch-all address instead. For example single apostrophe and underscore works just fine, though single dash doesn't.
@thewhitefalcon8539
@thewhitefalcon8539 Жыл бұрын
The Protonmail *signup* results (not the sending results) make sense if you remember Protonmail is supposed to be some kind of secure service so it probably puts an emphasis on not allowing weird things just in case. At 28:46 you made a big mistake - you DID ask the Zoho server to relay mail to the Protonmail test domain (pm) instead of sending directly to the Zoho test domain (zh)
@DylanBeattie
@DylanBeattie Жыл бұрын
Ooops.
@santiagomorales9129
@santiagomorales9129 Жыл бұрын
@@DylanBeattie what happened after the video cuts? did you talk about Gmail, Azure, AWS, etc? or did you sacrifice someone's first born child? or was it a round of questions? if the latter, thank you, I hate when uploaded lectures/talks have those xD
@richardmccormack2486
@richardmccormack2486 Жыл бұрын
Really insightful piece. And wonderful delivery
@dr.c2195
@dr.c2195 Жыл бұрын
16:13 I thought he was going to use the keyboard layout as an example. The common staggered qwerty layout is unwieldy and inferior to a non-staggered layout, but we keep the staggering for people who are used to using old typewriters. And those typewriters needed the staggegering because otherwise the hammers would get in each others' way. The staggering is also a case of backwards compatibility reaching insanely far back into the past.
@milomoisson
@milomoisson Жыл бұрын
At 36:16, you said that in the original SMTP spec, methods could have been used to better track senders and include spam protection in the standard itself. Do you have examples of such methods or ideas that could have been implemented ?
@Zeturic
@Zeturic Жыл бұрын
The number of sites that still reject Gmail plus aliases when setting up accounts is disappointing. For that matter, the "canonical" form of my gmail address has a period in it, and some sites even reject that.
@user-xl5kd6il6c
@user-xl5kd6il6c Жыл бұрын
@@techtutorvideos No way you did that, all special characters are removed on gmail. If you have dots on your email, your email is the same without the dot, and as the video explained, the + is used just for alias.
@pappalamma
@pappalamma Жыл бұрын
23:30 Proton mail supports subadressing (that + thing in local part), and office365 does it as well - thus you cannot use + character in standalone email address...
@ferinzz
@ferinzz Жыл бұрын
and this is why corporations are having so much trouble figuring out how to create their own 'metaverse' that only they can own. Because the baseline of all of our primary communication methods has been free for anyone to use.. And they have to somehow compete with that. As a dev, it would maybe be beneficial to have some standards that finally update and drop the cassette tape. But as an end user, why?
@entx8491
@entx8491 Жыл бұрын
Drop the cassette tape?
@santiagomorales9129
@santiagomorales9129 Жыл бұрын
@@entx8491 16:25
@IanBLacy
@IanBLacy Жыл бұрын
The other reason they’re having trouble getting a good meta verse is because the concept is inherently flawed
@Objectified
@Objectified Жыл бұрын
.... no.
@SioxerNikita
@SioxerNikita Жыл бұрын
Metaverse as a concept is flawed from the beginning... A centralized service that you interact with through an avatar? Well, I can tell you that shopping online is generally more efficient than walking around a store... Because... I can't search, I can't scroll fast through a list, etc Metaverse is trying to do the inconveniences of real life and add it to the internet
@alexanderpodkopaev6691
@alexanderpodkopaev6691 Жыл бұрын
Amazing talk! Useful advice. And kudos for reminding me of late 90ies when I had to telnet 25 to quickly check mailserver works.
@alejandro3244
@alejandro3244 Жыл бұрын
Super informative and entertaining!!!
@JasonSpears
@JasonSpears Жыл бұрын
I think plus addressing predates gmail by some years. It is supported in sendmail starting with version 8.7.
@QW3RTYUU
@QW3RTYUU Жыл бұрын
Hey! You forgot IRC as an open protocol for communication :) Nice talk, liked it, was very informative. Now I understand raw mail!
@kiffeeify
@kiffeeify Жыл бұрын
Ane awesome talk! Thank you so much, I am very amused and a lot more informed now :)
@jalvrus
@jalvrus Жыл бұрын
I started my career in the 1990s and did a lot of work with email of various types. At that point, RFCs didn't always carry a lot of weight. People just did what worked for them. Lots of things tended to comply with some of the RFC, but often omitted parts or added proprietary extensions. The original SMTP RFC contained a bunch of dumb stuff (like quotes and comments) that very few people bothered to support. Also, bang paths.
@EyMannMachHin
@EyMannMachHin Жыл бұрын
Hey! What's wrong with bang paths? (UUCP admin from the early 90s here ;)
@Skyben2
@Skyben2 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for giving me a good time by watching this!
@seanys
@seanys Жыл бұрын
Excellent talk, Dylan. Thank you.
@JonathanPeel
@JonathanPeel Жыл бұрын
I have just tested... Sending from the work 365 mail I could single-apostrophe-at my personal domain, and... I did get it. From now on, this is the address I am sharing with people.
@MarkFaldborg
@MarkFaldborg Жыл бұрын
Wonderful talk and good history lesson.
@LilFaerl
@LilFaerl Жыл бұрын
No, Non-dark mode on any site/program/app/screen thingy should be illegal with capital punishments.
@SXsoft99
@SXsoft99 Жыл бұрын
Should be as default dark mode
@andresross1537
@andresross1537 Жыл бұрын
I'm confused by the title email vs capitalism. Is it because capitalism caused the spam? or was there something else I missed?
@Gunth0r
@Gunth0r Жыл бұрын
Finally a nice overview on e-mail. Thanks! I set up my own mail server one time but dealing with Microsoft and google was just too much, especially because I didn't know enough about what I was doing.
@Rx7man
@Rx7man Жыл бұрын
I am always looking forward to the next piece from Dylan.. I'm not even in the tech field but modestly tech savvy and enjoy the humor and education in each one, everything from Rock star programming to the Art of code
@Whatthetrash
@Whatthetrash Жыл бұрын
Fantastic talk! So good! :)
@vttale
@vttale Жыл бұрын
Email subaddressing with the plus sign in local part was in use long before Gmail even existed, at least since the late 80s/early 90s by the Andrew system at Carnegie Mellon. Source: I'm old. PS: Oh, regarding it not being "part of email standard" you are basically right, but as with many Internet standards, it's complicated. RFC 5233 describes subaddress filtering, including "One common way of encoding 'detail' information into the local-part is to add a 'separator character sequence', such as "+", to form a boundary between the 'user' (original local-part) and 'detail' sub-parts of the address, much like the "@" character forms the boundary between the local-part and domain."
@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug
@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug Жыл бұрын
17:22 Most naive email regexes in Stackoverflow would probably match the first two, sometimes the third and fourth too. But when I when I first considered the problem of validating email addresses I realised that the spec allowed so much the only thing I really could be sure of was that a valid email contains an @ symbol and at least one character before and after it. But of course then the clients complained that it accepted "somename@gmail" etc. without the top level domain; so I decided that it was better to add another technically incorrect requirement that an email should have at least one period with at least one character before and after that period in the host name part; with the assumption that anyone who legitimately have an email without any periods in their host name is probably much rarer than idiots who forgets the top level domain name of their email. So whenever I have needed to make my own email validation; it would usually accept all of these except the ipv6 one.
@f.d.3289
@f.d.3289 Жыл бұрын
One of the best things about this lecture is that I finally understood why I have ALWAYS hated HTML e-mail, and up to this day, forcing plaintext mail is the first thing I do when I set up a mailer. I never really knew why I hated them. But when I heard "table within a table within a table", I knew that even without knowing exactly why, my coder brain just knew it was crap. Thanks, Dylan :)
@qlum
@qlum Жыл бұрын
Great talk, as someone who has to deal with e-mail, troubleshooting clients writing mail templates sometimes It truly is a pain to work with.
@TheodoreRavindranath
@TheodoreRavindranath Жыл бұрын
Amazing!
@JonathanFrost
@JonathanFrost Жыл бұрын
Fascinating!
@aimeekeel
@aimeekeel Жыл бұрын
Extremely useful info. Thanks!
@PierreThierryKPH
@PierreThierryKPH Жыл бұрын
Is the full version elsewhere?
@andrerenault
@andrerenault Жыл бұрын
I vaguely want to know what happened after the youtube version ended…
@sfdntk
@sfdntk Жыл бұрын
You know a talk is truly excellent and the presenter is an engaging speaker when you're already familiar with all of the concepts being communicated but you still watch the full hour and love every minute of it. Amazing work, Dylan!
@RichardBronosky
@RichardBronosky Жыл бұрын
45:55 "floating point boolean" LOL! I love this guy. ☮️❤️🌈
@zamplify
@zamplify Жыл бұрын
Best talks in the business, hands-down.
@enverhaase8562
@enverhaase8562 Жыл бұрын
38:12 if you also wanted to know what it was that is base64-encoded there: it is "funwith:email", so a colon between login and password.
@harshitjoshi3082
@harshitjoshi3082 Жыл бұрын
Wow this is a great talk 👏
@juliocardenas4485
@juliocardenas4485 Жыл бұрын
This is one of the best tech talks I’ve seen.
@jak-sdk1429
@jak-sdk1429 Жыл бұрын
28:38 You said you're not relaying, but it looks like you had a typo? Server was Zoho but the RCPT was @pm.
@f.d.3289
@f.d.3289 Жыл бұрын
Hands down my favourite lecture of Dylan. Seemingly obscure, but full of actually fascinating stuff and totally fun. 33:20 "E-mail was invented by hippies. And hippies SUCK at security." XD
@Xsiondu
@Xsiondu Жыл бұрын
I have no reason to have enjoyed this talk as much as i did. I'm not a developer, programmer, hell i can't remember the last time i opened an email client. But this talk was very interesting.
@picahudsoniaunflocked5426
@picahudsoniaunflocked5426 Жыл бұрын
I love that I jumped when I received an email during the beginning part where he was saying "ok, you're getting an email now". I hate that I was jump-saddened by Young Matty Perry at 33:54.
@pixi850
@pixi850 11 ай бұрын
I guess I need to watch more of his videos, glad I stumbled upon someone talking about him on Reddit.
@adambickford8720
@adambickford8720 Жыл бұрын
Great talk! Still feel like it should have tried to sell me something because that's the web now.
@jeffbrownstain
@jeffbrownstain Жыл бұрын
Not in the places I hang out.
@christianknuchel
@christianknuchel Жыл бұрын
About 53:46 : Dark mode is the original default *and* an accessibility feature. It's bright mode that should never have been allowed to happen.
@sezmonsta
@sezmonsta Жыл бұрын
This talk should be compulsory viewing. OMG. So packed with critical context about how things work in Internet land.
@KainniaK
@KainniaK Жыл бұрын
This is an amazingly interesting talk.
@unexpectedkAs
@unexpectedkAs Жыл бұрын
Awesome presentation! On the last point about corporations owning WhatsApp, Telegram, etc, could the ActivityHub be the email equivalent for modern communication needs?
@cbrunnkvist
@cbrunnkvist Жыл бұрын
Classic ASP you say. Which SMTP client COM component did you use in the for-loop @DylanBeattie? :)
@DylanBeattie
@DylanBeattie Жыл бұрын
The first version of that particular system was Server.CreateObject("CDONTS.NewMail"), I think - and then switched over to using CDOSYS on Windows 2000 at some point.
@benbrist
@benbrist Жыл бұрын
Great talk as usual @DylanBeattie One thing - Microsoft have the same +tag tracking on 365 23:26
@pauljmey
@pauljmey Жыл бұрын
Summer of Love was 1967 (nice metaphor though)
@ekaa.3189
@ekaa.3189 Жыл бұрын
I have ME/CFS. Dark mode allows me to continue to do stuff with computers. Big areas of bright lit pixels like white backgrounds makes me tired faster.
@mschwage
@mschwage Жыл бұрын
Hold on. DNS in 1983? It wasn’t in widespread use. I was a student operator in the digital computer laboratory at the university of Illinois in 1983. At that time our “network” connection was a 9600 baud modem to Purdue twice a day, in which we sent 2 MB or so of email and Usenet postings per connection. Some time later, we got an always on connection of… not sure, 56 kb? Anyway, for years I was typing in all sorts of arcane email paths to send messages. Thank god for ihnp4, which was a gateway to everything! DNS wasn’t adopted for quite some time. The hosts file grew to some 1.2 or maybe 2 MB by the time DNS was rolled out. I was disappointed, because it meant that I wouldn’t be able to look up (grep) for any host I wanted from the hosts file. Of course, it also meant that a single entity couldn’t claim a name that nobody else could use😂. Anyway, I maintain that 1983 was too early for dns to be used. No one was using it, that I was aware of.
@wChris_
@wChris_ Жыл бұрын
By the way + tagging is supported by all of them, not just google.
@lerneninverschiedenenforme7513
@lerneninverschiedenenforme7513 Жыл бұрын
awesome as always!
@ICountFrom0
@ICountFrom0 Жыл бұрын
I remember manually assembling mime into files, sometimes waiting quite a while for the middle bits of the email to arrive because I was down the FAR end of a long ! path.
@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug
@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug Жыл бұрын
23:41 and 24.34 hmmm... Maybe + and - somehow is interpreted as some kind of wildcard or escape character when they look up wether it's available or not so that it either returns a spurious actual result. Or maybe the it passes the frontend validation but when it asks the isThisEmailAvailable service on the server it will also validate it with a different validation before searching and then reply false because it failed the validation? Maybe the latter is more likely. It could also be the default case in an error handling switch case that happens to trigger whenever you cause an error they hadn't thought were possible.
@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug
@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug Жыл бұрын
Btw, having a default incorrect/nonsensical error message is incredibly common. For some reason all servers like to communicate in jargon, weird error codes or just broken English (always English despite the server serving a website in a single non-English language) particularly when something goes wrong (and it's not always your backend programmers fault, sometimes a generic exception will be triggered in some 3rd party library and bubble back to the client); so you rarely want to parrot back exactly the error the backend gave you, you will translate all the messages you know about to something that humans can understand. But since you cannot know all the possible error messages, some times there will be errors that you have no mapping to a friendly translation for; so you'll have to have a fallback error message. The technically correct default, probably should be "unexpected error" or "unknown error" etc. but that's not particularly friendly so your product manager will probably insist that you lie and just map the unknown errors to some specific error that sounds somewhat plausible and would be correct most of the time; and then just log the actual error somewhere. So completely unexpected error codes (i.e. non standard HTTP statuses etc) or missing responses will typically be "translated" into a cautious suggestion that maybe the internet connection is broken (despite the fact that an actual response code normally should indicate there _is_ a connection; you'll never know if some random browser could invent one for network issues), and error codes we haven't agreed on from some kind of isThisAllowed service will typically map to the most common reason for why it's not allowed like this probably is. Pro tip: quite often we will output the raw error message into the javascript log or into a hidden element on the page somewhere in the DOM near the friendly but incorrect message while debugging; and more often than not we forget or "forget" to remove this before going in production so you can often see the raw errors or even better raw errors + some guesses as to what the real error is using the debugger if you're curious. And if not, as long as you can identify the network request that caused the error you can see the raw error using the network tab in the debugger. If the error isn't from a server but happens somewhere in the client code, we're almost _allways_ logging something more than the "friendly lie" in the javascript console; and if it's a truly unexpected error it will usually be a full exception with stack trace etc.
@ShadowZero27
@ShadowZero27 Жыл бұрын
i needed to hear this
@aaronchantrill7338
@aaronchantrill7338 Жыл бұрын
Thank you, that was very interesting. I thought you might touch on pgp and gnupg and why nobody ever mandated that system (as far as I'm aware).
@MarbledPaladin
@MarbledPaladin Жыл бұрын
Plus sign in email addresses is *NOT* a gmail/google specific feature, it is an *EMAIL STANDARD* specified in RFC 5233 (from January 2008) that was originally specified in the now obsolete RFC 3598 (from September 2003)... google/gmail just happens to be one of the big email providers which happened to support it first but more tech savvy people have ben using it for years (on sites which supports it, not all sites consider an email address with a plus sign valid)...
@shmoola
@shmoola Жыл бұрын
28:45 Well you connect to zoho and send to proton. So relaying?
@torsten_dev
@torsten_dev Жыл бұрын
For the issue of the logos. Couldn't you do embedded svgs and do css on those?
@icepicker8528
@icepicker8528 Жыл бұрын
Noooo I need to know what happened after the live stream. I need closure on the anecdote.
@sundhaug92
@sundhaug92 Жыл бұрын
Now I wonder what happens if say you provide a mime type alternate for something like pdf or mp4
@techgeeknzl
@techgeeknzl Жыл бұрын
You get either an attachment, or a security breach; depending on your email client.
@edstercw
@edstercw Жыл бұрын
What happened after the talk stopped being filmed?
@mikev7490
@mikev7490 11 ай бұрын
I've seen a few providers support the + tagging method, it's a very useful feature I wish was made standard.
@byronhambly
@byronhambly Жыл бұрын
base64 decode at 38:18 is funwith:email
@Larzenegger
@Larzenegger Жыл бұрын
Great talk. The + character in the local part of an address seems to have been described in the 2008 RFC 5233.
@elle305
@elle305 Жыл бұрын
at 23:00 you call +tag added to email a Gmail custom feature. that's not true! + tagging is an RFC feature and should be permitted on any proper implementation. most front end validators however are not compliant, so the point is often moot. in fact despite Gmail obviously supporting it, you often can't provide that as an email when signing up for accounts elsewhere. the ignoring of certain characters like spaces and periods is however Gmail specific.
@elle305
@elle305 Жыл бұрын
tbh your political bent is more libertarian in the vernacular sense than toad. and i get you mean just to be disparaging with the hippie comment, but hippies weren't involved (actual hippies were really weird). overall i think you should have let people in on the fact that this was and to some extent still is a huge debate. you kinda hinted that toad has an extreme view and that you're reasonable. i don't entirely disagree with you but i think you did a disservice to the community debate
@elle305
@elle305 Жыл бұрын
last thoughts: the title here mentions capitalism but the connection to capitalism is pretty light and at the end. actually i lived through this era as a working engineer so i love to talk about the political and industry struggles that led to these decisions. open relays were related to a naive or utopian idea about the Internet, but it's not bc they were dopey and closed relays is the right choice. closed relays was forced on us by corporate interests who as you've experience, bully us out of using p2p technologies in many ways.
@kjkiefcakes1847
@kjkiefcakes1847 Жыл бұрын
Listen I'm not saying I was bored, because I loved the talk up to the point that it happened, but the giant spike in the graph of my enjoyment over time when you made the Vision joke was amazing.
@Zheraan
@Zheraan Жыл бұрын
Is there anywhere we can watch the end of the talk? It was getting interesting as he was talking about how capitalism is ruining it
@limitless-codes
@limitless-codes Жыл бұрын
I'm wondering what went on the continuation of it.
@arduous222
@arduous222 Жыл бұрын
38:50 Such a powerful quote given the ad-blocker ban situation in KZbin.
@bluebrick5300
@bluebrick5300 Жыл бұрын
Proton also has the "+" feature that google has
FDTD Simulations with Meep
1:31:52
Computational Nanophotonics Videos
Рет қаралды 835
Evolution of software architecture with the co-creator of UML (Grady Booch)
1:30:43
The Pragmatic Engineer
Рет қаралды 56 М.
Beat Ronaldo, Win $1,000,000
22:45
MrBeast
Рет қаралды 158 МЛН
Support each other🤝
00:31
ISSEI / いっせい
Рет қаралды 81 МЛН
Гениальное изобретение из обычного стаканчика!
00:31
Лютая физика | Олимпиадная физика
Рет қаралды 4,8 МЛН
Failure is Always an Option - Dylan Beattie - NDC Copenhagen 2022
47:44
Dylan Beattie - The Cost of Code
46:30
DevConf PL
Рет қаралды 24 М.
Failure Is Always An Option • Dylan Beattie • GOTO 2023
44:26
GOTO Conferences
Рет қаралды 8 М.
Fractals, Factories and Fast Food - Dylan Beattie - NDC Porto 2022
44:54
Beat Ronaldo, Win $1,000,000
22:45
MrBeast
Рет қаралды 158 МЛН