Employers Demand Payment When Employees Leave

[@troystallard6895]

My son took a position with a defense contractor, and needed a particular certification. They paid for the training and testing, on the understanding he would repay them if he didn't work for at least a year after receiving it. When he changed jobs after more than a year, they withheld the full amount from his last check anyway. His boss told him, "we don't start the clock until we pay for the training, and we didn't pay until several months after you took it." When my son discussed it with an HR guy the next day, he showed him the number of a National Labor Board rep saved on his phone, and invited him to call her and discuss it. They cut him a check in a matter of hours...

[@TomReichner]

The defense contractor that your son worked for is obviously evil.

[@troystallard6895]

@@TomReichner I think it was more the supervisor and a couple of his toadies, than it was the whole company.

[@TomReichner]

@@troystallard6895 oh, that is unusual that supervisors and managerial employees would actually establish corporate policy regarding legal documents entered into with employees. That is usually done at the upper executive levels.

[@troystallard6895]

@@TomReichner I didn't realize you were trying to be sarcastic. Maybe you should've ended your post with /s? His supervisor wasn't "establishing corporate policy;" he was misapplying it - I assume to save some bucks on his budget. Why do you have a problem with my son standing up for himself? The simple fact that HR cut him a check so quickly is a good indication he was right, and the supervisor was wrong.

[@jon9103]

Funny how a lot of supposedly legal businesses are scammers, only playing fair when they think they're about to be caught. There should be penalties for even attempting to cheat employees.

[@justinfriedman2039]

"Employers are looking for ways to keep their workers from quitting without raising wages or improving working conditions." That really sums up the root of the issue well.

[@Dimythios]

To partly counter this. The workforce today SUCKS... I have to hire out of the country for people to create content for me. However I think corporation SHOULD post all of the requirements and stipulations for being employed. In this case I agree with you.

[@rjgaynor8]

Here’s your payment when we quit. That we just leave and Joker the hospital.

[@jcgamer892]

@@Dimythios yeah, the workforce sucks for businesses, however..... 1. This was a death spiral that was started years ago when corporations started treating workers as disposable products instead of as valuable assets. 2. Today's corporations want serfs/slaves that they can do with as they please and they wonder why unions are starting to get popular among workers again.....

[@S.A.White...]

It sounds less like workers suck, and more like you don't want to pay for the good workers in your country so you look overseas for people with the same qualifications but cheaper pay requirements. ​@@Dimythios

[@ryanmullins2103]

Yea, it’s not gonna happen.

[@AdamSternberg]

I am a photographer who shoots corporate events. I recently was working a large conference for a Fortune 500 restaurant chain. Their Vice President gave the keynote presentation and a hot topic was how "Today's employees are lazy and don't want to work". He basically called this mentality complete nonsense. He said, "It's not that people don't want to work, it's that they don't want to work FOR YOU!" He really wanted to reinforce that many of their stores had absolutely no problem with employee retention, so if you owned a store that did, maybe it's you and not them.

[@captainvimes6079]

Hard agree as someone who has had more luck suing than working a real job in California they never say "we let a white employee live in his car and live on property for free, but made our only black employee wear a uniform and nobody else". It's always "people just don't wanna work tsk tsk" Marriott in California BTW. Next time you visit just know that's the deal. Hotels pay slave wages.

[@taco12]

It's true. It's rare for a person to quit a job but it's common for them to quit a manager.

[@ditahargrove2804]

💯 this! Happy employee want to do the best job possible. They will stand up for their fellow employees and the business.

[@Weathernerd27]

Its disgusting how in our society the employee is almost always the problem, the bigger employers can get away with almost anything. Alot of people are also forced to stay with abusive employers because they won't get unemployment if they quit. I think the law needs to be changed so you can still collect unemployment if you quit for a good reason and striking workers need to get alittle bit of unemployment pay because companies have way more cash than the typical worker and can usually outlast workers in a strike. Not giving striking workers alittle bit of unemployment is a clever way to outlaw strikes.

[@AdamSternberg]

@@Weathernerd27 And what, specifically, would be the "good reason" for getting unemployment if you quit and how would you prove it in court? You can't just say, "My boss was mean to me so I quit. Now, I want my unemployment...gimme gimme gimme!"

[@LoneWulff829]

My mother worked for the same company (Toys R Us) for over 15 years. Their "training" was minimal at best. After 15 years she was terminated for a mistake made by her manager yet she was thrown under the bus for. After few months later she received a letter claiming she owed them over $700 to reimburse them for training (after 15 years mind you) or they would sue. Needless to say we told them to go stick it.

[@Throefly]

This kind of invoicing should be charged against the company as a criminal act, and the company should be fined, and/or it's officers imprisoned. It's overtly fraudulent.

[@YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999]

Too bad she couldn't sue for wrongful termination. Sounds pretty bogus.

[@derekhobbs1102]

Where are Toys R Us now? Gone.

[@markgaudry7549]

​@derekhobbs1102 not quite. They are now a subsidy of Macy's

[@YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999]

@@derekhobbs1102 and it didn't need to happen. I know Amazon is a problem for a lot of brick and mortars but other chains have found ways to adapt. I'm sure TRU could have done the same if they really wanted to

[@mariehammond5097]

My daughter was awarded a "full scholarship" for EMT training from an ambulance company who was contacted with her high school and had agreed to employ her while she's in school on their dime. It required a 2 year commitment. They didn't want to give us the contract, so we had to ask multiple times. We finally got 2 days before she was to start. The contact was a loan agreement complete with interest and late payment fees. They were only paying half, and forgiving a fraction of the other half for each month that she stayed. It was contingent on her employment with them and they could fire her for no reason at any time , then demand full payment, plus interest, atty fees, etc. And they never gave us the amount. We declined, she got her Paramedic Cert on her own while working at a coffee shop and has no student debt because it was mostly covered by real scholarships.

[@jonslagill8864]

It's free in Tennessee if done at a Jr. College.

[@troystallard6895]

My other son got roped into a culinary school run by Art Institutes, and it was a disaster. The first semester they only scheduled him for one beginner's class, and the rest were all classes that were supposed to build on earlier training. When my wife went down to try to straighten it out, they got arrogant and snotty with her and he quit. He was hounded for years for the full amount of his student loan anyway.... He recently received notice that his loan had been forgiven by the Biden administration, along with thousands of other students who'd been victimized by Art Institute's various vocational schools.

[@paulperry7091]

I expect that "forgiving a fraction of the remainder" was a tax dodge for the company as well.

[@troystallard6895]

One of my coworkers had a wife who worked for an ambulance company. They monitored the local police, sheriff and highway patrol frequencies, responded any time there was an accident - and handed out bills for $600.00 apiece to everyone involved, without having been called or actually treating or transporting anyone. It was a win-win for them. Some dummies would pay the bills, and they' could write off the rest as uncollected debt at the end of the tax year.

[@gregorysiegel1178]

When my company paid me to move across the country I had to sign a contract that if I didn’t stay for 1 year after the move I would have to pay all the moving costs they covered for me back. But as you said, they told me, I had a sit down with HR and was able to go over the contract BEFORE they would let me sign the offer letter

[@johnree6106]

My company pays for my certs but it was only for the first time in getting it I had to stay for a year or they would deduct it from my final paycheck. Afterwards to renew it they pay and even if I leave nothing is charged. Which is understandable as they don't want to invest in a person get him certified only for him to quit right afterwords

[@jonathanj8303]

Not in the US but that's kind of normal where I'm from. A new employer doesn't have to offer relocation expenses, (if your existing employer moves your job, as long as it's over a certain distance, they do) but if they do it obviously sweetens the deal. The contract will say how long that's hanging over your head for (and if it doesn't, the legal maximum is two years from your start date, you can't owe anything after that, how ever much they paid), and how it gets written off in the mean time (usually pro rata to time employed, but it doesn't have to be). And repayment only applies if you quit, or breach your contract. Except in some special case of your new employer reimbursing the cost of "real" 3rd party educational qualifications that also immediately improved your employability elsewhere, I can't imagine anyone even trying to claim training costs back (and only then if they wrote it into the contract, complete with service/write-off arrangements.). Training is just an investment you have to make with new employees, and the cost/inconvenience of it is one of many reasons you try to pick the right folks at interview. And also why there's always a temptation to try to skimp on it.

[@jonathantutor40]

I've done this for someone before. I think the difference is I was very upfront and said "if you leave within 18 months you have to pay me back for moving you, which is close to 10k".

[@rosevillerod]

I did the same thing. That contract kept me there for an additional month. My new employer thought it was a tactic and offered me more money, LOL. It worked out well for me!😂

[@rjhikes6248]

That’s pretty standard. I’ve heard of people really getting hung out to dry when the company goes bankrupt because it couldn’t afford the move to a new location. So people end up in a new city with no job and they’re on the hook for thousands to the outsourcer that paid them for relocation.

[@danielcrotty3598]

At one of my first job interviews I was told I didn’t have enough work experience, and I said if you hire me I’ll gain work experience. They then told me if they hired me and I had work experience I’d leave and work somewhere else! Must have been a really horrible place to work.

[@mikepalmer1971]

Then they probably complain they cannot get employees.

[@danielcrotty3598]

@@mikepalmer1971 I was so young it confused me,but wake up and smell the coffee

[@autobotjazz1972]

Ah yes the circle of worker/employer relations.

[@ostlandr]

Ah, the classic Catch-22: Can't get a job without experience, and can't get experience without a job. And these Einsteins can't figure out why they can't fill positions Read about one company that was asking for seven years experience in X software. The software was five years old. The creator of the software actually applied for the position and got turned down.

[@Celestial_Wing]

LOL! They serious? 😆😆😆😆

[@Frylock76]

I took a promotion at a job I had. Once I accepted and was ready to start my new training which was done by a 3rd party school, I was asked to sign the agreement that I was not told about, and would require repayment if I left within 2 years. I signed it but our HR director didn't ask for it back after they dropped it off to me. I filed it away (at home 😊) just to be safe. 18 months later I got a new job. They demanded the repayment but knowing nothing was signed, at least in their records, I just asked them for a copy of what I signed. Oddly, they never asked me again.

[@ArtemisKitty]

It gets even worse : a mate of mine in the USA applied for a job, was hired, went to the FIRST session... and was promptly told he and about 7 others were mistakenly employed due to an error - basically they had 2 people not communicating about the hiring process, and ended up, whether intentionally or not, hiring more than they needed. They dismissed that group, and my mate thought that was it... Just a waste of their time. The really nasty bit? Every one of those people was then hit with a $5000USD charge for training... Even though they never even made it to the first training class, only the initial first day introductory meeting. They are suing now, but... Or rather, I should say... They are appealing the judgement. They were all stuck with the charge by the first judge. This seems kind of insane to me, as a normal person, who might look for a job...

[@YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999]

As far as I'm concerned most judges are crooked or criminal af. Never went to the training and it was the company's mistake the whole way but the company deserves money now? GTFO with that.

[@ArtemisKitty]

@@YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999 I agree. Like... What good is law enforcement, if they're not upholding the law in a manner that protects the people? They are currently tied up appealing it, so hopefully they will get a judge who has more common sense.

[@YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999]

@@ArtemisKitty I certainly hope so. It sounds like that judge was on the take or somehow partial to the company. Perhaps the plaintiffs can ask for a jury trial. If your facts are true nobody would say that the company is in the right in this case. How do you deserve a refund for something that never happened? Come on now now you're just scamming. I don't care if they think they have a technicality they're asking money back for something that was never provided and it was their mistake to begin with. They're just trying to get free money. Plenty of people will try that, I'm a little surprised they're willing to take it all the way to court tho... Idk... People who feel entitled to tend to have a lot of nerve.

[@mechengr1731]

So, the training fee almost makes me think it wasnt a mistake... They hired more people than they needed for the express purpose of stealing from them

[@tylersingleton9284]

Training should be seen as the same as PPE. It is an expense of doing business, and not the responsibility of the employee.

[@opossumgrylls3275]

I think most ppe should be the employee's responsibility to be honest. I know legally it is the employer's responsibility but that's wrong imo.

[@tylersingleton9284]

@opossumgrylls3275 you think employees, who are trading time for money, should have to pay to do work that entitles their employers to all the profits?

[@angelainamarie9656]

​@@opossumgrylls3275why should the employee have to spend money on equipment that the employer requires? What is that other than abuse? Make it make sense to me.

[@boyar1978]

@@tylersingleton9284 this is a major reason why at my shop I pay people minimum wage or 1% of profit of the shop they work at. They are helping me get rich so I figure I should give them an incentive to stay. Lazy workers tend to leave and hard workers tend to stay a long time as they earn more if my store earns more.

[@rabbitcouch15]

@@opossumgrylls3275 what’s leather taste like? I’ve never licked a boot before

[@user-wg6fe5uj8r]

"People are always worried that they'll invest money in training people and then the people will leave. I'd be more worried if I didn't train people and they stayed!" -paraphrased from J.C. Maxwell

[@sheilawest1720]

I WAS RECENTLY TOLD TO SIGN SUCH AN AGREEMENT TO THE TUNE OF $3,000! AND I REFUSED! ... As backstory .... I was a CDL holder many years ago during college in Pennsylvania. I drove public school bus as my college student job. I maintained the license literally for decades simply because I I knew how valuable it was, even though I never drove professionally again. But then I lost the license in 2013 when they changed the rules on how to renew, and I never knew about the rule change because I was not working for a professional driving company where I would have had a dispatcher who would have informed all of his or her drivers about the rule change. So, in total ignorance, I walked into the RMV to renew my license just 3 days before my birthday. And they said I had to have a physical exam including an eye exam every time I renewed. I had no time to get such an exam, so I had to surrender the CDL om the spot and downgrade to a regular driver's license. I checked into what it would take to get it back: an absolute minimum of $3,000 (more like $6,000) out of my own pocket, and all that classroom time, and I also needed to get my hands on an actual bus. No thanks. I just shrugged and said "Oh, well, I guess I will never get a CDL ever again." And then last year, in 2021, the whole nation was screaming for school bus drivers, and school bus companies everywhere were advertising that they would pay all new-hires to be trained, they would provide all of the classroom training, and provide the road training in a real school bus, and then pay for the exam at the RMV, pay for the road test at the RMV, and also pay for the license itself. I decided to give it a whirl. I applied and they said they would hire me with no problem. So a week later I showed up for my first day of training. They had me sign all the usual new employee forms including an I-9 and W-9, etc. And then ... they whipped out a stand-alone document which was a promissory note to be signed my me. It was called a "Tuition Reimbursement Agreement." It said I was obligated to work for one full year for this school bus company, and that I was not to quit prior to one full year. If I did, I was obligated to reimburse the company $3,000 for the cost of training. It also had a very important clause which said if I tried to legally contest that agreement, then I was further obligated to pay all of the attorneys fees of the bus company during the course of my efforts to contest it. I said "But what if I work for 11 months and 22 days, and thus fall short of the one-full- year by a mere week? What if I break my hip and need to take two months sick leave? There are no provisions in this agreement that protect me in such exceptional events." I was assured that the company would pro-rate the time I worked, so if I left after 6 months, they would only charge me $1,500 and not the full $3,000. "Then," I pressed further, "why doesn't the document mention anything about it being pro-rated? You're giving me a verbal assurance that it will be pro-rated, but I would much prefer that statement in writing, right here on the document. And furthermore, what is the definition of 'a full year?' Is that a full school year from September to June? Because this is October, and I am starting late in the school year. Is it a full 12 months from October to October? Maybe 'a full year' is in the employee handbook, where maybe the very phrase 'school year' gets clarified. Once, again, this document is alarmingly vague. There is nothing in this document that protects me." After barely 90 seconds of my protesting the wording of the document, the supervisor fired me on the spot and order me to get out. So I laughed, and left. So I still don't have a CDL. Lol! Now I personally believe that the $3,000 is quite fair. But the wording of the document was not. The document had all of the protections skewed in favor of the employer, and zero protections at all were skewed in my favor. And while I'm sure it's a nice company to work for, and I'm sure they would have pro-rated me had I left after 6 months, the real fear I hold is that if that company ever (hypothetically speaking) got sold before my "one year" of employment was up, the (hypothetical) new owners of the company could take advantage of the vague wording of the document to totally screw me over. Because they can. I believe my concerns were warranted. I have no regrets for raising those concerns. And, Steve Lehto, I still have that "Tuition Reimbursement Agreement" if you wanna see it.

[@ainmosni22]

Less than 10k is small claims, which heavily favor the employee over the employer. Even if you sign a piece of paper saying you agreed to this or that, it doesn't automatically become some holy parchment that is enforced by God himself, all you need to do is convince a judge that you're not a lawyer, and the company explained the terms in bad faith and are trying to screw you if something ever happened. You negotiated yourself out of a job lol

[@yt.damian]

You did the right thing. It needed to be in writing and it wasnt.

[@k.chriscaldwell4141]

You are wise. They would have screwed you even if you left with terminal cancer one day short of a year. It’s worded like that so they can write off the full amount against taxes as a “bad debt” if you leave early, the more the better. Proration wording would mean less benefit to them if you leave. Not to mention that such a contract may give them incentive to fire you so as to benefit financially, not mention be able to lord the contract over you. Debt collector scum would have then hounded you for years.

[@diamondjim7560]

In the end you would have won the lawsuit against you but the legal fees to defend yourself would have been excessive over the costs to reimburse them. A unilateral contract in which the maker controls the wording and there are material ambiguities, those ambiguities always go in favor of the other party. This is taught in Contract Law 101. The most common unilateral contracts are insurance policies. Unless you are accustomed to reading long contracts the average person’s eyes bleed after the layers of definitions and conditions. The language is unavoidable but still irritates most insurance buyers.

[@radolfkalis4041]

I agree with you 100%

[@joew8438]

I had an employer who demanded I reimburse *them* for my travel expenses retroactively, if they believed there was a cheaper option that I hadn't taken. According to policy, we were required to take the cheapest flights and hotels, at all times. If their travel person retroactively found flights or hotels that were cheaper, they'd actually come asking for cash. This of course is broken in a number of ways, including that it's not how hotel and airline pricing works. Those prices can fluctuate on a minute to minute basis. It also ends up being a double taxation situation, because they were asking me to reimburse my own business expenses from after-tax income. And it's probably illegal as well. I was a 100% travel employee, so working there could potentially get very expensive.

[@allaboutroofing2]

Did you contractually agree to that when you started?

[@sirflimflam]

That's terrifying.

[@allaboutroofing2]

If they had a "travel person", it begs the question why they wouldn't just book it for you if they micromanage so much?

[@jesmith9975]

If a company I worked for did that, all they would have is a memory of where I used to sit.

[@Kalamain]

That is amazing. Why did you not just tell them that THEY needed to book all travel then? That way they would know that all bookings were done at the correct price point.

[@sneakyquick]

I left a job one time and turned in my notice. I had three weeks of vacation days I never used because I was asked to work through the summer on a project. I asked to be paid for those like any good company would. The owner refused. I told him we'll consider that my three week notice and I walked out. I never even logged off of my computer or checked in any of the code I was working on.

[@mwhe3111]

I love you so hard for this. 💕

[@nancysmith6053]

In Australia, you wouldn't have had to ask to be paid, it's legislated that all unused annual leave entitlements (as well as any other eligible entitlements such as Long Service Leave) must be paid to you when you leave. The USA really has Dickensian employee rights that would be illegal in other developed countries.

[@jdraven0890]

​@@nancysmith6053 I think things have changed now in the US, I believe it's now a violation of US labor law not to pay for unused PTO or vacation - HR departments are very scrupulous about this now and I remember being told it's not optional.

[@normbograham3]

that's how that works. once you are not an employee you do not get vacation time. And sometimes companies did not even call it vacation time, but something else to avoid the argument, that you are entitled.

[@TomReichner]

The costs of doing business need to be placed entirely upon companies and corporations, not upon the employees. Anything to the contrary is pure evil and greed.

[@wendwllhickey6426]

There mad you quit cause they can't find people to fill the job cause it is a scam job

[@agentorange81]

I second the gentlemans proposal

[@boeubanks7507]

I disagree. I think companies, if they invest in their employees, have a reasonable expectation of getting a return on that investment. There need to be a couple of limits, though. 1) The training must be necessary. 2) The training must be specialized. 3) The training must be unique (not a retred of certifications). 4) The training must not be shop specific. 5) The perspective employee must be explicitly notified of the requirement. 6) The repayment amount must only be for the actual cost of the training. 7) The repayment period must not be excessive. 8) The repayment requirement must only apply if the employee voluntarily leaves the company. 9) The repayment requirement must not apply if the employee takes a promotion within the company, even if the new position doesn't require the training. 10) The repayment requirement is only enforceable if the company has met all of their contractual requirements and reasonable expectations. 11) The repayment requirement is only enforceable if all required trainings have been provided. 12) If the employee is paid a lower salary while waiting on/in training, the difference in salary must be applied to the repayment amount, with the employee only responsible for the balance.

[@k9wiREless]

i disagree, the day one interview should be crystal clear about what the business is looking for each individual should be responsible to learn before applying for the job. I have issue with the stupid training that comes with bad employment. when they treat you like an idiot. Classes about how to tie your shoes

[@wasd____]

@@boeubanks7507 "I think companies, if they invest in their employees, have a reasonable expectation of getting a return on that investment." _They're f*cking getting a trained employee._ That's all the 'return on that investment' they're entitled to. Employees aren't endentured and they're not slaves. Why do they owe the company anything???

[@dorcsssc6843]

11:00 You're spot-on about the time frame: employers almost universally spring these conditions on you after an offer is made, or after they've made sure you've declined all other offers. It's usually buried inside all the "on-boarding" paperwork, carefully tucked in between workplace-violence stuff, discrimination & disability laws, company motherhood ethics statements, etc, etc.

[@evoblade2000]

Hold up… motherhood ethics statements? What is that?

[@HesderOleh]

don't decline other offers until you have a signed contract

[@marbanak]

I ask to see all things I'm expected to sign upon joining. Such as the non-disclosure agreement.

[@thisbushnell2012]

Our teacher told us of how she went to a company which was advertising for a job. To begin the process, the interviewer informed her there would be several days of testing to see if she was capable of filling the position. She firmly insisted she be introduced to the current holder of the position, since she did not yet know if she would _want_ the position, and there was no point in spending days on testing if she was not interested in taking the job. (this was during the Great Depression) Wise woman.

[@deconteesawyer5758]

Amy, send in the next applicant. We are done here.

[@rebeccarittenhouse2203]

That was a long time ago, when we still had more rights than corporations.

[@avi8r66]

It's basically a form of indentured servitude. They hold you hostage while underpaying you.

[@jeromethiel4323]

Indeed. Instead of paying the employee more, due to their now higher value due to the additional training, they instead try to TRAP them. Go figure.

[@michaelmoorrees3585]

Wonder if Elon Musk knows about this ? Then, he can make the Starlink employees pay for all of last years cost, as he couldn't do that for Ukraine. Yes, his "fair", billing was equal to the revenue he received from all the world's paying for last year, while the Ukraine only used a fraction of the service.

[@gregGould]

Some of the trucking companies will train you to get the commercial drivers license and then only pay you about 28 cents per mile which much lower than the normal industry rate.

[@avi8r66]

@@michaelmoorrees3585 Just feel like getting in some bitching about Elon? Weird hobby.

[@allaboutroofing2]

Did you watch the video?

[@ScottJPowers]

this happened to me. after high school, I got a job at a goodwill store but I couldn't continue after a week because I couldn't get a photo ID for myself, so I had to leave. when I got my paycheck for the time I worked it read negative 25 cents. They took all of my pay because they charged me for "training" which was just me watching a video for a couple hours that explained my job, which they made me watch.

[@patriot6285]

He you had contacted "National labor relations", that would have been corrected. They cannot legally do that.

[@KimberlyWalrath]

I wonder if they figured it was not legal to hire you, as you could not produce ID. Perhaps the negative amount was them thinking the IRS couldn't come after them. But I believe you are entitled to compensation, but it would require a rep, and they probably need ID also. Bummer

[@bloviatingbeluga8553]

​@@KimberlyWalratheven if you work illegally, you are entitled to pay (in the US) and it will only create another fine and possibly more if they don't pay

[@dawnstarr671]

That’s why I don’t support goodwill. Bad practices.

[@Vanlifecrisis]

Goodwill is a huge charity scam. Their whole non-profit mission according to them IS to train people to work in their business/scam. So they get free inventory to sell, no taxes and basically free workforce.

[@erin19030]

Years ago my part time employers tried to screw my out of a weeks work when I quit. They claimed it was for training purposes and yet no one trained me. I was put on the job day hired, and never saw a soul at the remote job site. My training was obtained by me under FCC licensing before I was ever employed. I took the case to the New Jersey Labor Relations Board. I won my case! Do not lie down over employer intimidation or cooperation.

[@mr.robinson1982]

I love how they want a two week notice before you quit but they can fire you without the same notification.

[@TheNoodlyAppendage]

2 week notice is supposed to garner a 2 week severance. No severence program, no notice.

[@CptBlackbeardlives]

And many places will fire you as soon as you give a two week notice.

[@steveburke1519]

Two week notices are never required, but are a courtesy to the employer and you can quit without notice in most cases anytime you want. The cases where you can't involve a pre-employment contract of some kind, military service, professional athlete, and the like. Even in these cases you can still quit, but you are likely to be sued.

[@chitlitlah]

@@TheNoodlyAppendage Severance? Only chief [something] officers get that.

[@colinsmith1495]

@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket Right to work is also about YOU being able to QUIT for any reason at any time. It's a two-way street. If you want to be able to leave for another job whenever you want, don't be surprised if the employer wants to be able to replace you with a new hire at any point.

[@wickedbird1538]

My husband worked for a company that briefly stated company policies and procedures WITH the job application. Some people would not even fill out the application because they did not want to follow those policies. Saved everyone time, money and trouble by being honest up front. Communication is the key.

[@stuartd9741]

@@KameraShy agree.

[@jamesphillips2285]

Was this company CP rail with their 24/7 2 hour on-call policy with only holidays off?

[@BY-bj6ic]

upfront and honest is so refreshing.

[@RikoLime]

Or really the company is avoiding hiring lazy shits. By providing policies beforehand and being strict up front. Good filter, but bad if you're shothanded

[@20mik20]

It's definitely the way to do it. Think the only regulation needed is the upfront notification, anything else will just cuase extra peoblems.

[@gordybishop2375]

My old company tried that. They are too afraid of being able to provide a competitive wage and benefits package. Guys would get crane training and quit. So us that did not quit got forms to fill out. I never did. Billion dollar public utility company too afraid that it can’t compete, very sad.

[@JoexSay]

The truth is big companies can't fairly compete. They got big because some "financial engineering"(douchebag) came up with a scheme to steal labor. Most companies would go under if they had to do things properly.

[@gordybishop2375]

@@JoexSay true that

[@garrettabcdefg4602]

Iam in that same exact boat lol minus them trying to sue people leaving

[@savedbygrace1582]

Reminds me of "I owe my soul to the company store".

[@pamelaanis715]

First thing that came to my mind and was going to post, but you did it!!

[@perjus]

Saint Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go...

[@Reggie2000]

Look up the history of that meaning. Crazy stuff. It's basically about truckers who were paid in company money, redeemable only at company stores.

[@spacecaptain9188]

This sounds like the sort of thing that happens in human trafficking jobs. Force people into worse and worse situations...

[@michaelherring7210]

Only if the training is for a cert or license that is portable should this ever be a problem. Beauty salon case is outrageous! Basic training for a particular place is the cost of doing business. I wouldn’t even accept a lower rate while I was in ‘training’.

[@alanmcentee3035]

In other words, training for certification is different from orientation.

[@additudeobx]

Everything you learn, every knowledge you gather, is portable. It doesn't need to be "Licensed" to be valuable knowledge. Own yourself a business that hires employees, then you can talk your butt off about the "Cost of Doing Business"....

[@MTurner005]

@@additudeobx If your workplace is forking out money to get your certifications and specific training then yes they should absolutely be able to charge you. If you start working somewhere, however, and you're just training on site with materials that cost them nothing to reuse, if you realize the job is shit or the business is run terribly or your coworkers are worthless and you decide to leave, they shouldn't be able to charge for that. It absolutely IS the cost of doing business if you run your business like shit.

[@toriless]

Dilbert - "I have the power of the certificate", so true.

[@justinmc415]

@@MTurner005 "should absolutely be able to charge you" only if there's a time limit. I've been taking courses for a little over a decade and recieved my certs. If they wanted all the money back that was required to do that I'd owe 5 figures.

[@BerserkPublishing]

I experienced this, twice. The first time was at a company that told me up front I had to stay for a year to take a specific software development course. It was a fair ask. However, it was bought out and on the auction block again when I finally left for a new developer position nine months later. Although it was fair to ask for the money, they did not prorate it but made me pay for the entire course even though they benefited nine months from my training. Given my time was billable, I know exactly what they made, and it was exponentially more than I owed. The second employer was not so fair. I was laid off with a generous severance. Although I could have returned, my doctors had advised me for almost five years to take disability. I was making a good living and did not want to quit. After the severance and a month off of work, I opted to take disability to let the parts of me that could heal do so. At the time of my exit my manager, who did not want to lose me in the cutbacks, told me to count my vacation time owed/received as even. He did this because we did a lot of free overtime since we were salary. In December of the year, after being away from the company for seven months, I got a call telling me I owed over one thousand dollars in vacation time. When I protested, the HR person said, "Yea, we get this a lot. The managers aren't allowed to give comp time on an exit of an employee." I won't say which financial company this was, but let's just say it's worth over a trillion in assets, has the letters B and A in its name, and that vacation money that I needed and was told was mine will never even show up in a balance sheet. I would know since I used to manage their regulatory computer systems.

[@starchitin]

I'd have just hung up the phone and acted like I never got the call unless I received something official in writing. They wanna claim I owe them money after laying me off, they're damned sure gonna have to put in more work than a phone call.

[@michaelcrawford9939]

If you have accrued, unused vacation, you are owed this upon exit in addtion to your severance. In California, if you have accrued, unused sick time, you are owed that too, again, in addition to your severance. Were you laid off (meaning you could have been called back) or was your current job being elminated or you were being downsized (meaning you could not have been called back)? If you were laid off with possibility of being brought back within a certain period of time, then you going on disability during that period could have impacted your ability to be called back. Was your disability related to work or something that happened outside of work? This would have impacted your circumstances.

[@BerserkPublishing]

@@michaelcrawford9939 It was the same in Charlotte, NC. At issue was the system used. Previously a manager tracked the hours with the employee. The year I was cut they had gone to a software version and had changed the benefits from four weeks a year to four weeks accrued.(This occurred during the 18th year with the company, I was a VP.) I had just taken a two-week vacation after finishing a serious push, including weekend work. However, because I had accrued less when I exited, I owed them that amount. Technically correct, but it was a new policy that HR admitted nobody was enforcing, except when we exited, because of all the free overtime and the immediate managers essentially counting the extra days off as comp time.

[@thevalorousdong7675]

Go ahead and name them to save everyone else trouble.

[@gridtac2911]

@@thevalorousdong7675 pretty sure he's referring to bank of America

[@richardjafrate5124]

In the beauty salon business this so called training is typically geared to selling specific retail products and services specifically offered by the salon. Often the training is sponsored or required by the manufacturer of the products being sold or used in performance of the services. It seems to be inappropriate to characterize what is essentially a sales meeting as training. It's very likely to be the case in this story.

[@danielpensyl4382]

Richard, speaking as a customer. A Beauty Solon has health issues that are article. Example: I walked into a BS for a haircut. The woman who gave me the cut grazed the back of my neck. She had not properly cleaned her equipment and I got a terrible fungal rash on the back of my neck. I know that in many cases a stylist will rent a chair. I hated to do it but I contacted the health department. I tell you this. The shop should be required to Train a person on the local codes, their procedure. then post a Certificate of training so the public can see it. It took me weeks to get rid of that infection. FYI : at the turn of the 20th century it was discovered that a common cause of death among me was infection Infection caused by Nick's and abrasions revived from shaves and haircut's. That is when barbers were required to be trained/licensed. Also when they were required to use anticeptic's afterwards. So I don't give a crap how long this person has been styling hair. Before I let them work on my customers they will by God demonstrate knowledge and proficient to my satisfaction

[@justadbeer]

I belonged to a skilled trades union and we have our own union school that the apprentices attend. We now have the perspective students sign a contract BEFORE attending school. As the almost five years of schooling is at zero cost to them, and we give them all a brand new laptop, which is theirs to keep when finished. If they drop out or quit before graduating, or quit before one year of service after graduating, they are responsible for paying for all of the schooling that they received up to that point. This was done to stop kids from getting free schooling on our dime and going to work for a non union company.

[@Lobotomy59]

Only time I ran into something similar, was as I started plumbing and was still merely a laborer, the company( out of state contractor) offered to send me to school,IN THEIR STATE, to get my journeymans license. I wasn't required to pay for the school, but had to have signed a contract saying I will work for them while in school, and for 2 years after I get my license. It was a good deal, but have to drive out of state after work on Thursday(4 days work week, 10nhour days) to make school each Friday. I decided that 4 years of our of state travel wasn't for me and got hired locally and entered apprentice program here. Boss there would take out funds paying each semester out of your pay, but once he got grades at end of semester and you passed, he'd reimburse you!

[@MomerathOutgrabes]

This really sounds like indentured servitude with extra steps.

[@GrimReaper528777]

It is.

[@ptrinch]

Similar, but one key difference. An indentured servant doesn't get any salary. The 'employer' pays for their journey to the new world, then anything they would have earned is used to pay off the debt. They are also provided with room and board, the cost of which is added to the debt at such a rate that it never goes down to zero. The 13th amendment abolished both slavery and indentured servitude, since effectively, there is no difference.

[@kevinblackwellwelder]

@@ptrinch The 13th amendment didn't abolish slavery. Go literally read the first sentence.

[@ptrinch]

@@kevinblackwellwelder "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

[@Fuckyoutubecensorship1]

​@@kevinblackwellwelder It looks like you need to read the 13th amendment because you're reading comprehension seems to be lacking bob.

[@jasondroninaround]

I went to a truck driving school with the down payment and the loan for the school from me in my name before I even chose a trucking company. The large companies say they will pay back your loan. They did. The agreement was in two parts. The first part is they set up a automatic payment for my loan that was a little over $200 per month. The second part was they gave me $100 per month even after the loan was paid off, until they paid me back the full amount. If I quit before it was paid off, they did not necessarily charge me for quitting. They just stopped making the loan payments and the loan became my own burden. This arrangement was for a third party school with a fourth party loan.

[@ShojoBakunyu]

My husband paid $5,000 out of pocket for CDL Schooling and System Transport said they reimburse upto $5,000 but if you leave before you work for a year you must pay them back everything they've paid up to that point. They're purging drivers because their insurance went up and are firing employees based on new terms that the driver's were not made aware of until AFTER they were fired. It's a mess.

[@jasondroninaround]

@@ShojoBakunyu my situation was similar except the school was third party and the loan was separate from everybody. The loan was in my name. If I would have quit within that year or so it would have taken for them to finish paying off the loan. Then yes, I would have had the finished loan on my own. I think that's fair. If you have that CDL, you can pretty much work for any big company. Right now they'd be happy to have you and I'm sure they would take over the loan payments. I don't think there's anything wrong with this as long as they're clear up front. The way that I did it was that the school was on me first. Then I had to get the loan myself. Then when I graduated I chose my trucking company. Same thing with one of these companies that seem to trap you into paying for their school. That CDL works everywhere.

[@nurseadrianern]

That’s reasonable

[@MattH-wg7ou]

That sounds reasonable to me.

[@wcm469]

When I graduated college in 85, I had an offer from EDS. But with the offer also had a contract they wanted me to sign saying they were going to teach me how business worked (how to dress, speak, etc) and if I left within a 4 year period, I would owe them 10k for the training they were going to provide. When I declined their offer, they came back and asked why. I told them they were hiring me to program and I would not be interested in their business training. I ended up going to CSX as a programmer. Much happier and no dress code.

[@jamessimms415]

CSX==Crash, Smash/Spill, Xplode

[@k.chriscaldwell4141]

“EDS.” Another way to spell Z(C)IA.

[@keithfreitas2983]

EDS did not have that policy in 2003 when I got hired to the Flight Planning Department which got bought by HP in 2008. Then became HPE which was then bought by DXC in 2017. United being a major customer due to the merger with Continnental Airlines bought the support side that handled United which was 100% of the handling of the daily operation of the airline.

[@stuartd9741]

I am wondering if you missed a trick here. If the company was going to teach you how the business worked + etiquette.. I wonder if that was alluding to possible later promotion to say a management role... After a time at the company of course.. Understand you wanted to programme. Perhaps a managerial position might have be a more lucrative option? Of course it depends what goals/ ambition you set yourself..

[@wcm469]

I would have already been in management. It was a Ross Perot way of trying to keep employees from bailing after realizing what they told you before you signed was mainly BS. I am still in touch with some friends who went with them. I left CSX after 2 years and have been with AT&T for 35 years but n network implementation. I still automate process where possible and did ten years speaking on object oriented programming.

[@lannyfloyd6131]

This is like a factory I used to work at. We had to pay for our own uniforms and when we left the company we were told to turn them in to HR. When we asked why and reminded them that we had to purchase them out of our own pocket we were told because they had the company logo on them it made them company property. So it was either turn them in or we could be charged with theft and they would hold our last paycheck to cover the cost.

[@JBM425]

That has to be illegal. It probably hasn’t been challenged in court because of the relatively small cost of the uniforms, even in small claims court because of the time entailed in bringing a case there. I can see a company charging an individual for any uniforms provided for free if they weren’t returned, but not when the employee has to buy them!

[@autobotjazz1972]

That getting you coming and going, Very likely illegal but that said the amount is likely low enough that everyone thus far has no found it worth going to court over.

[@melkiorwiseman5234]

Defy them. Don't return the uniforms. When they withold pay, report them for wage theft. Let the courts sort it out.

[@nurseadrianern]

Hard no - unionize

[@tazz1669]

I'd have cut the logos off them and handed them back the logo. If it was part of the uniform and would be damaged beyond use so be it, can't claim to have damaged company property as you bought them and so long as the logos were not damaged can't see how they would have a claim

[@uh60rider2000]

My employer has a tuition assistance program where hourly employees can go to college/trade school to acquire a qualifying degree to advance their position within the company. It's an aviation maintenance contractor that works for the army so most people that utilize this program go to aviation college and get their A&P license. There is no requirement for them to stay working for the company whatsoever. However, the turnover rate is rock bottom out there because it's the best job in the area so the company has zero issue with paying for employees to get their A&P. I could see how the company could negotiate with our union for an employment length requirement, but we just don't have that problem because of the low turnover rate.

[@Weathernerd27]

Yeah I'm a member of the electrician union, we are on strike and companies with bad labor practices are getting picketed alot more. One company charged high voltage electrician labor rates for low voltage electrician work and that company is getting picketed around the clock. Unions are the result of employers not treating workers fairly. Treat you're workers good and you won't have to worry about unions.

[@billh.1940]

The magic word here, UNION. They protect you. Training should be on boss.

[@philswaim392]

I think training in the sense you illustrated as well as degree program reimbursement agreements are totally fine. Doing shop specific training is a cost of doing business not a debt to put on your employees

[@rjhikes6248]

If you are ever asked to sign something, read it carefully. When you get hired at a company you normally get a stack of papers to sign. It’s easy to have something slipped in there.

[@geoffstrickler]

When I was a consultant, my rule for training time was simple. If it was something that was likely to be useful to me with other clients, I didn’t bill them for my training time, but we would negotiate who would pay any costs to take the training. If it wasn’t likely to be useful to me with other clients, they paid for the training and my time as I was learning it specifically for them.

[@TBO1491]

but if you’re 1099/ providing special services as a consultant that makes a little sense. just charging a larger amount is what my firm does.

[@19Edurne]

1:49 "TRAPS"... What a fitting acronym! It doesn't even try to hide its purpose. The "land of the free" clearly not extends to employees' rights...

[@paulmarmora3706]

Some truck companies that train you to get your CDL require you to sign a 1 year contract to drive for them, if you leave before that to agree to pay them back for the training.

[@kenvalentine5341]

In 1976 I interviewed with a computer hardware company (a competitor with IBM in the telecommunications area), whose employment contract explicitly stated that an employee who left the company FOR ANY REASON would be liable for the "cost" (set by the company) of all training given during his/her employment. I politely declined the job offer, nd six months later had the pleasant experience of seeing my interviewer come through the company I was working for, interviewing to join us. The company hr''d been with had gone belly-up.

[@alli3219]

Couldn't attract enough talent? 😂

[@DGPHolyHandgrenade]

I remember being taught that indentured servitude was a bad thing committed by evil people.

[@donaldcarey114]

You've been brainwashed. Indentured servitude was a mechanism to pay back a loan (the cost of sailing to a colony, for instance), and it was for a set period of time, often 7 years.

[@ptrinch]

An indentured servant doesn't get any salary. The 'employer' pays for their journey to the new world, then anything they would have earned is used to pay off the debt. They are also provided with room and board, the cost of which is added to the debt at such a rate that it never goes down to zero. The 13th amendment abolished both slavery and indentured servitude, since effectively, there is no difference.

[@ae2948]

@@donaldcarey114 Don't forget, people were kidnapped and sold into indentured servitude halfway around the world too. That happened. You couldn't just run away and go back home when you were poor to begin with, penniless currently, completely without a support system, and no one believes you because its not convenient to believe you.

[@donaldcarey114]

@@ae2948 And, sometime in the past, if you look far enough, YOUR ancestors owned slaves. SO WHAT.

[@davidhollenshead4892]

@@donaldcarey114 You are forgetting the small part about how most indentured servants in the colonies that became the United States had been given a choice by the judge, either seven years in the colonies or a quick death by hanging or a slow death in a prison ship anchored off England. Of course they had been convicted of anything from pick pocketing, stealing a loaf of bread, prostitution, etc. but when a member of the lower class was arrested, the judge assume they were guilty...

[@JamalHeacock]

A former employer created an enhanced training program for a group of employees. We competed to earn a spot in the class. When we showed up, we were presented with a pay-back contract. I forget the specific language, but we all refused to sign until they corrected two main problems: 1. We did not have to pay anything if we did not leave on our own accord. (This company had major layoffs pretty regularly.) 2. The money was pro-rated across the time of the contract. No way would I agree to pay the full boat if I had 1 month left.

[@20mik20]

I personally would really like to see the right version of this done more often. A large portion of today's workforce is very unreliable and fical, and it costs businesses a ton. In my current job, we paid over 3 grand for a gals training and then trained her for almost 2 months. The night before, she started working at just half the expected loaf as everyone else she quit. Cost the company kot just a fortune in training but lost opportunity. I've seen it time and time again, and then these businesses pass these on to customers, so we all suffer thanks to bad employees. But, like Mr. Leto said it definitely needs to be something that is disclosed up front with a clear contractual agreement. I've signed several agreements like it, including non-compete. Sometimes things didn't go as well as I hoped but I knew what I was getting into and the risks upfront and made those decisions.

[@maigretus1]

I was under something similar, but with the Federal Government, specifically the US Navy. My NROTC scholarship included a provision that if I didn't finish college or accept a commission upon graduation, I had to serve two years as an enlisted sailor (we called it an "Instant Boatswain's Mate"). Plus, if I was commissioned I had to serve at least eight years, at least four of them active before I could resign. In this case though, the Navy did pay for college for me.

[@jhamirh]

I heard similar stuff with people in marines

[@mithicash1444]

​​@@jhamirhthat is the standard for NROTC scholarships which is the exact same across all branches. There is a good reason for it though, that is because you are sent to college before completing your service. Without that requirement, people could get their degree then bail before commissioning. If I remember right that scholarship was about 100,000 over 4 years when I got in in 2014.

[@mattsciascia]

I work in trucking and my company does this for new hires who attend our in-house CDL school. They sign a promissory note before starting for the tuition. At the end of the program, you graduate with a Class A commercial drivers license. The tuition payments are then payroll deducted until paid off. The company also offers a tuition reimbursement benefit, whether you attended our program or an outside program, be it at a community college, trade school, or even a competitor. If you went to our school and work for us, the reimbursement benefit essentially makes you break even each pay period after the loan payment is made. If you leave the company before the loan is repaid, the reimbursement benefit obviously stops, but the balance of the loan is still due. I think this is incredibly fair. If we didn’t do this, people would just apply to work here to get a free CDL and then bounce. I think it’s a very fair setup and our tuition is considerably less than most of the for-profit independent truck driving schools.

[@zancrus9629]

See this I can understand. I wouldn't understand if say when I worked at a bank I had to take an ethics class every year because they required it. If after 10 years there I left and they went "Well you owe us $100 per training class we gave you" then I would be pissed. Some of these places are billing for things that won't count as training anywhere else. I mean if your IT company is going to pay for you to get a certification and you say you will work there for X# of years to cover the cost then you leave 2 days after getting the certification then I get the company going "Ok pay up for the cost of that certification".

[@massivecumshot]

You can train a monkey to get a CDL. And some companies obviously do.

[@WalkaCrookedLine]

I had a similar deal 25 years ago. Four weeks at the (live-in) school, + 2 weeks as codriver with a road trainer. Cost was quoted as $2000, but forgiven after 6 months working as a trained driver. I felt it was a very fair deal, and recruited a few friends into the program. However, the details were all made clear up front.

[@ohioref64]

28 years ago I start my driving career just as described above. 6.5 months later I bailed on the company AFTER my promissory note was paid off. This is common practice for anyone using a company paid CDL school. Only thing is, I think schools are over 10k now.

[@mattsciascia]

@@ohioref64 a lot of the for-profit career-type trucking schools are that much, but, in their defense, they do a much more thorough job at classroom training than most of the carrier-run schools, as the latter rely on their over-the-road trainers to teach the practical skills, whereas the career schools don’t have that luxury. You can still get a CDL for much less than that if you do your homework.

[@jasonvandergriff]

Literally just went through this. I was an employee of a car dealership and our dealership owner sold the business to another company. Under my original employer, training was fully paid for by the dealership and no such "T.R.A.P" was part of the employment there. After the ownership change, I had training that had already been scheduled since before the change in ownership. The day I was scheduled to leave, the new owner's office staff wrote up a reimbursement agreement and I either had to sign it or not go to training. The training I was taking was from the car brand I worked on and we are required to complete this training to be able to work on this brand's vehicles for warranty repairs. An untrained (non-certified) technician performing warranty repairs can result in the dealership being charged back the claim upon an audit. So I'm a year into working for this brand, hammering out required training classes as fast as they are available and benefiting the dealership in the process. I end up leaving after multiple promises of a pay increase and they deduct over $500 from my final check for the travel expenses they covered for my training (the auctal training classes are provided at no cost to the dealership as long as the employee passes).

[@Garth2011]

How about the employer pays the employee who leaves because the employer was not accurate with the work and conditions so they left.

[@coreyayers7933]

The judge should be sent to prison for forced labor

[@joet.2078]

I believe our hospital employer does this. Nurse jobs are high demand, our hospital has connections with Local Colleges Nursing Programs. Believe at least one time, not sure if they still do, but our hospital system was paying for Nursing School for qualified candidates, not just anyone, but there were conditions that both Student and Employer agreed upon before starting, like upon completion they were guaranteed employment, they didn't have to payback tuition as long as they remained employed for a specified time (think it was like 3yrs or so). At least all parties were fully aware of all the conditions before entering into agreement.

[@iainballas]

With Steve's rather grounded presentation of stuff, I'd love to hear him explain the first few amendments in the bill of rights. What the 1st through 5th amendments or beyond ACTUALLY mean.

[@davycrocker4842]

@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket it's amazing how many don't understand the 1st amendment

[@thadrepairsitall1278]

@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket I agree. I would love to hear Steve's account of the bill of rights.

[@tonyv3758]

Lol that's why SCOTUS has dozens of cases having to explain what the amendments actually mean and how they should be applied in real life

[@matthewmillburg3933]

@@JohnTheRevelat0r jeez, some people are dense. Just because you have a right to say anything, that doesn't mean that you can't suffer legal repercussions for certain speech.

[@billyyank5807]

Read it.

[@extraordinary_ordinary]

This sort of thing should always be outlined in detail in the offer of employment.

[@jamesgorman5241]

How are people bound by contracts they never signed?

[@Ryan_DeWitt]

When my company sent me training, I had to sign something before the training class that said I would pay them back the cost if I left the company on my will within a year.

[@allaboutroofing2]

It is a contractual agreement. My niece just signed one to get her master's degree in prosthetics paid for by her employer of the last couple years. If she doesn't work there for 5 years from now, she has to repay her education expenses at a prorated rate. So if she quit at 4 years, she pays about 20% of the cost incurred by employer. They are paying her very well and paying a couple hundred thousand to get her degree, so it's not always a bad deal and in fact can be a really good deal. I suppose the employer just wants to protect themselves that they don't shell out all that money for her education and she just switch to another company upon graduation. She wasn't forced to accept that offer, she could have kept her old position, They simply offered it to her because they see her potential and the fact she graduated early for her bachelor's and was summa cum laude.

[@allaboutroofing2]

@@Gnomezonbacon 👍 when do you start your certification or have you already? At least you'd only be on the hook for $300 bucks of all hell breaks loose. 🤷

[@CryselleSilverwynd]

@@allaboutroofing2 In your niece's scenario it makes sense and I think it's okay. The training that is being paid for is an official degree, it's transferable to other employers, and it is perfectly possible for them to hire someone who already has the training in question completed. Especially with a prorated system in place, it's structured as a mutually beneficial arrangement, not an attempt to bully or scam employees. Employers with programs such as this tend to be the kind you WANT to work for, because companies willing to invest in employees tend to value them more. It's just shameful that unscrupulous employers are latching onto such things and abusing them to people's detriment.

[@allaboutroofing2]

@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket that is also the subject of this video. Did you watch it? I never heard any mention of basic training by the employer being charged back and you'd have had to agree to that before you started, so if that's the case, don't take the job?

[@thagenet]

Are used to work for America’s largest food service purveyor, I was told that I was moving departments and that I needed to obtain a CDL by the end of the month and that they would pay for the driving test if I pass the written. I read the state booklet on CDL licenses and took the test twice and passed. Passed the driving test first try. I’m glad they didn’t try to call that training and charge me when I left. That’s right boys, a cdl in less then a month with no training.

[@funnlivinit]

2014 I was hired by C. R. England Trucking to drive their trucks over the road. I did not hold a CDL when I applied for the job. I applied for and passed all of the written exams at the CA. DMV and was granted a Learner's Permit prior to the start of my training or even the offer to hire. The written contract we were required to sign included language about compensation during training and reimbursement for training if we left before the end of our ninth month of employment, including training. We were paid $14/hr and provided housing at no cost during training. Training was two weeks long. The first week was prep. for passing the written portion of the DMV tests, which I had already passed and been granted a Learner's Permit. The second week was preparation to pass the skills portion of the DMV test for a Class-A License. We were told that if we quit prior to the 10th month we'd be charged $9000 for training costs. Well, it turned out that that was exactly the same amount that the Feds. would pay for training a new driver. I quit after 4 months. They tried to collect for a short time, but it's hard to find an over-the-road trucker with no permanent address. Plus, they were sued for illegal trade practices and lost. Including the training reimbursement, not meeting minimum wage standards, (I was paid $0.13/mi which worked out to $7.15/hr at the speed limit in CA if you drove for 11 hours/day and never slowed down.) among other things. They never got a dime from me.

[@wesstubbs3472]

If your employer isn't treating you decently, including paying you a living wage, you have zero obligation to him. In fact, you should treat him in-kind and sabotage his business every chance you get.

[@philopharynx7910]

I've seen this at companies that pay for their employees to take outside classes. You have to agree to the program and the possibility of repayment directly. Since the training was provided externally, it had an objective value. The pilot school example is a good one where you have a regulated course where each school is teaching to a regulated certification. You can survey different flight schools to get a good idea of the value of that training. When a company is charging this for internal training is where it gets hinky.

[@nurseadrianern]

Hard no

[@Raxiel497]

That happened to me. My employer paid my tuition for a part time Bachelors degree at an accredited university (with a 15% pay cut in return for the 20% of the week I had classes). I had to agree that if I left the company in 3 years I'd owe them a proportion. After 3 years, not a penny. Clearly outlined in advance, and entirely optional.

[@Caderic]

"When a company is charging this for internal training is where it gets hinky." Not really. Just because they provide in-house training, doesn't make it hinky. Especially in the flight school example, since there are so many "outside classes" (and yes there are many) you can compare prices. If the airline is charging what would be seen as a competitive rate, there is no qualms with that. But what might be kind of sketch is charging you for the currency training, when the industry standard is for the airline to foot the bill of required training.

[@missyd0g2]

I remember EDS tried this with IT employees decades in Michigan.

[@missyd0g2]

I remember that lawsuit. EDS lost. Unfortunately our CIO tried to force the same policy/contract. No one signed it and he tried to fire them. This company was in Michigan and some well known Attorneys file lawsuits and injunctions. The CIO had to apologize.

[@solandri69]

I had a friend who ripped off his employer over the same thing. He got hired, went through 2 months of extensive training learning the technical details of the computer system they were going to be working on, then immediately found a job with another company which was willing to pay him more now that he had those skills (but hadn't been willing to pay for his training). It really does go both ways. I think everyone (employer and employee) would be happier if the training aspect was separated from the employment contract. e.g. Either you can pay for the training yourself (even get it before applying), or the company can give you a loan to pay for the training which you have to repay (though the company will also hire you if you complete the training). Trying to lump it in with the employment contract like it's a fringe benefit is where all the problems crop up. Plus it can only be something for which there's a technical certification, like a CDL or pilot's license or software certification. If no such certification exists, then the employer can't rightfully say they require that knowledge, the employee can't rightfully say they possess that knowledge, in a meaningfully objective manner.

[@glintinggold]

That other company is unethical for stealing trained employees. I wouldn't want to work for them.

[@herseem]

Well, it's fair enough if it's all upfront what the deal is - see my other comment here. What some companies do is not have a training indemnity as such, but if it's (for example) forklift truck training they will hold on to your certificate for a period of time after they've trained you, which means you can't use it at other companies for a period of time.

[@bmanagement4657]

First company should have paid more to keep their employees.

[@defies4626]

@@bmanagement4657 exactly this. There is no excuse, ever, to not pay people enough to live on. If you can't, well, you have no business being in business

[@Moosetick2002]

@@glintinggold Or they are hiring trained employees. Unless someone is unemployed, you could always claim their new employer is "stealing" them.

[@JustVisiting]

EDS was notorious for this back in the 90’s. They required new IT hires to attend a 10 week “boot camp”, with a provision they would have to repay for the training if they left before a specified number of years. They were then required to work arduous hours, with the repayment threat being held over them.

[@feoxorus]

I could relate a funny story about Ross Perot from back in the 60s. He was trying to sell computer time to the owner and founder of Collins Radio and Mr. Collins ran that "Chinese paper-hanging m-----f----r" out of his office.

[@nairbvel]

The business model in the US has been steadily migrating toward "return to investors is more important than profits, profits are more important than ANYTHING else, employees must provide all profitability at their own cost."

[@wesstubbs3472]

You're joking? All capitalism is founded in the principle that the only thing that matters is profit - which IS return on investment. It has always been that way, outside of the times when unions are strong enough to check their greed.

[@kiljaeden7663]

In my previous job it was specifically outlined in my contact that any training costs would need to be repaid pro-rata if you left the company less than a year after receiving the training. Which made sense.

[@glintinggold]

Yes, but only because they laid it out beforehand. It could be problematic otherwise.

[@kiljaeden7663]

@@glintinggold agreed.

[@bmanagement4657]

Would you be reimbursed for lost wages if the company went under while you worked there? Probably not. So it's okay for employees to take a risk but not employers, and people submit to such unfair conditions that hurt everyone and set a low standard all around.

[@nucleargrizzly1776]

I had one employer try to get me to sign a non-competition and non-disclosure agreements after I was forced by them to resign. They even threatened to sue. Agreement or not I would never disclose anything but I did take a contact with their competition.

[@justinmiller5660]

Most non compete clauses aren't enforceable. Your ex-employer doesn't have the authority to tell you who you can and can't work for. What is enforceable are non disclosure agreements.

[@icantpronounce]

@@justinmiller5660 steve did a video on this a while back they are enforceable and have gone to court but it has to be within reason

[@justinmiller5660]

@@icantpronounce hence the "most".

[@k.chriscaldwell4141]

Another reason for not giving two-weeks notice: No NDAs. I walked on a bad employer once, and then returned 4 months later to sow havoc with my replacement. I showed her that they were paying her 20% less than they had paid me. She made them pay her that plus 10%, applied retroactively. Non-NDA revenge is sweet.

[@k.chriscaldwell4141]

@@justinmiller5660 But they can sow havoc on your life by suing you. You have to go to court with a lawyer and show why the non-compete is unenforceable.

[@brucelytle1144]

I owe my soul, to the company store! NKC

[@Bobs-Wrigles5555]

Saw a documentary on Boulder / Hoover dam created Boulder city this way.

[@dansanger5340]

TEF?

[@owggarage723]

Actually Merle Travis wrote and sang the song in 1946. TEF released it in 1955.

[@darreng745]

it is even older than you think, back in Wales during the early part of the Industrial Revolution employee's were paid by what was known as the truck system where you were paid in tokens that could only be redeemed at the company store where prices were higher than the market price for items.

[@brucelytle1144]

@@owggarage723 OK, I went back into my wayback machine, and saw TEF singing it on a black and white TV. I was a kid back then, wasn't paying that much attention, NKC was what first came to mind. Hell, I had to think awhile on who TEF was.

[@kd7cwg]

I applied for CDL training at a trucking company that was highly rated and family owned. They explained the reimbursement right up front of you broke the commitment. I understood where they was coming from. They invest the time and money into training to drive their trucks. They don't want people to use them for the training, then skip and go work somewhere else.

[@LogicalNiko]

The trucking thing was a pretty well known practice. If you lack a CDL with proper ratings the trucking company would give you the option to be under contract on condition that you passed their training and the cost was outlined as either being something you could pay now, or finance over a year via your paycheck. But if you had the qualifications (same ones you could get at any trucking school) you only had to do some initial jobs with a ride along monitoring your work. The benefits to the trucking company was that they opened up their hiring base to more people.

[@mm4894]

I can see the training for the commercial driving license. I know someone who did pay $4000 for her CDL at our local community college about 8 years ago. A private training school was asking $10,000 at the time. I do agree that it needs to be disclosed beforehand.

[@Cheepchipsable]

Yes, some people see to think that there is no cost to the employer to have staff leave and hire someone else. It's a huge disruption and a time sink to manage this plus it affects the smooth running of the business.

[@Bobs-Wrigles5555]

Ben loafing on the Turbine Car hood, Steve's LHS

[@BenLeitch]

Good eye. I nearly gave up looking.

[@Bobs-Wrigles5555]

@@BenLeitch I should be asleep, but just can't get there, so still watching Steve today

[@jongrant1215]

This is the cost of doing business. Risk mitigation starts with hiring. You have to hire the right people, compensate them for their work adequately, provide decent benefits and treat them with respect. Your airline example is not representative of the normal situation.

[@JamesAllmond]

yep, that's how they used to do it...outside the era of the robber barons that is...

[@danielweston9188]

Yep - Someone asked us why we had so many old people working for us ( outside HR trainer) we told them that many of them have been with us for many many years. He told me we could hire others (newer) and save money. We changed HR trainers. I found it beneficial that they all wanted to be there. Once had a staff member needing to take several months off because of a family illness - we asked the staff if everybody could pitch in a little with her case work she could come in less than part time and we could still pay her full if we didn't need to hire someone to fill in for her. They did and when she came back 4 months later she was so appreciative that I swear she brought morning treats for months! That the kind of people we want and pay for!

[@kenyattaclay7666]

If it's something in retail or McDonald's where all you are doing is looking at a video & following someone around sure, it's the cost of doing business. However if it really is something where they are paying for you to get a certification or even a degree that can cost several thousand even 10s of thousands of dollars then no, it's not the cost of doing business. Now I've never heard of a situation where in those cases it wasn't upfront but the company should expect that you are going to work there a few years before leaving.

[@joshnabours9102]

He did preface the example by saying he didn't think it was possible in real life.....

[@snex000]

We live in a world where if you don't hire a minority, they can sue you for discrimination. You interventionist types created this world, now you want to complain about the results you were warned about? How about you get government out of it entirely?

[@andre0baskin]

Companies that provide training, pay a competitive wage and treat their employees well are much less likely to have people bail after receiving training. By requiring people to pay for training without providing the latter you run the risk of people doing just enough to not get fired and heading out the door the second it makes financial sense to do so.

[@andrewrudlang2785]

Hi Steve. There are definitely fully legitimate use cases for setting up a training repayment for an early departure of an employee, but just like anything else it is prone to being abused and used improperly in other situations. As a city council member we ran into a situation where we hired an uncertified person as a deputy city clerk under the understanding that this person would take the state’s training course to become a fully certified municipal city clerk (training which our taxpayers would pay for), and then with that required legal certification in place that person would eventually take over for the current city clerk who wished to retire. The Minnesota Municipal Clerks Institute certification program is lengthy (three years) and costs a notable amount of money (including mileage, hotels, etc). Part way into the first year of employment and training that individual quit and some members of the council took that as a rather bitter pill. In starting over in our process to find someone else to eventually replace our retiring city clerk we are having earnest discussions about putting some kind of training repayment clause into the employment agreement and job description. We agree that it is essential to be up-front and forward with any potential employee about this training repayment clause, and we are not looking to make any profit off a person who leaves sooner than expected but we would like to protect the taxpayers who are footing this training & certification bill to the best of our ability, so in our situation it seems to make sense. There is concrete, material amount of cost we can associate with that training and if things don’t work out we would probably like to recover that cost (nothing more and nothing less). What time frame to set is still a topic of debate. It’s not fair to be egregious with that to the point of holding an employee against their will, but we are still mulling some of those details over. Anyways, thanks for the interesting video, especially since it is relevant to what we are talking about currently on our city council.

[@afriedrich1452]

Obviously, such training was of no benefit to the person who quit, and is only beneficial to the department. So, I don't see why the employee has to pay. It is hard to judge a position before performing in it for awhile, so there may be something wrong in the department that you are oblivious to. You can't penalize someone for that.

[@dansanger5340]

Next thing you know, they'll be charging for the "experience" you gain while working there.

[@jroda8015]

Quit giving the bean counters more ideas

[@alexlail7481]

Sounds like a new version of 'you must buy everything from the company store' .... where they set the rules and the prices

[@mooffalo]

This is happening in corporate dental chains as well - I've seen >$20k to break a contract early. There's no CE (continuing education) they provide that's worth anywhere near that amount. The fee is in there to make sure the dentist/specialist can't leave if they're unhappy with the way things are run. Throw in a noncompete radius for the multiple scattered offices they have you work at and you can find yourself in a real pickle.

[@jennteal5265]

I have yet to encounter a chain dentist who wasn't trash tho. I hate those stupid corporate offices. An private practice is so superior.

[@redjoker365]

@@jennteal5265 They're apparently super corrupt on the billing side too, they'll check out a patient's insurance ahead of time to see what's the most they can bill for, then do more expensive procedures like root canals when a filing may suffice

[@craigjohnston7143]

Slightly related: I had a friend who was a journeyman electrician. He took a job at one of the wind farms in California where they would pay about half of the normal wage, then send the employee to Sweden for training on the generators, then raise the wage to scale after training. He liked the idea of travelling to Europe for the training, so he agreed and went to work. The problem was that they kept putting off the training: it'll be next month, it'll be in the spring, it'll be next fiscal quarter.... He finally caught on that they were just using the promise of training to get cheap labor form licensed electricians and found another job. I told him he should sue to try to get back some of the wages, but he was embarrassed that he'd been conned for so long. Do you think he could have recovered any of that money?

[@wesstubbs3472]

If your employer is ripping you off, you should consider treating them in-kind. A couple of burned out generators can be expensive.

[@JohnD-JohnD]

If the employer pays for a training outside of work, I can kind of see this. That being said, there needs to be a contract in place if the employer sends you train / certify in a skill, how long do you need to work to not expect to pay that back. I would not count internal trainings, just ones the employer has to pay for outside of work and there needs to be a contract.

[@melissabrown8878]

When I was hired to become a CNA with a local hospital about 10 years ago, I was sent to a college (paid by the hospital) to get my CNA. I had signed a contract agreeing to work for the company for 1 year from the time I received my license. It was a 6 week course. So to me, it was a good deal. But the on floor training of the facilities procedures, was free.

[@JBM425]

That’s reasonable when a company is paying for or subsidizing training to achieve a license or certification (and makes you marketable to other companies). But for continuing ed or company-specific processes, it’s ridiculous.

[@nurseadrianern]

Clinicals for CNA programs are included in the cost of the class

[@Headcase650]

I know you're an automotive guy, The Big Three do this with their apprenticeship programs!

[@ETWL897]

Hamvention!! Drivers Education companies try to do this in my state of CT when training instructors. My dept of labor said the companies have no authority to do that. I agree that it's crazy that businesses think they're entitled to two weeks notice for you quitting but they don't have to give you two weeks notice to fire you. Fair is fair and equal is equal. Love the Hamvention shirt! We absolutely need to get the word out about Amateur Radio and our conventions and events.

[@ChrysanthsMum]

Except a fired employee can do a lot of damage to the business in 2 weeks.

[@finris1]

Even if it is not legally required, it is better to give 2 weeks notice. It isn't about your current bad boss/job, but your future jobs. If a potential employer knows you might just quit and leave without warning, they may be more reluctant to hire you.

[@petertraveller6421]

In my country companies can choose to pay 2 weeks salary if fired someone, but not allow the person work those 2 weeks, so he/she can stay home, if they are afraid that he/she will do some damage.

[@543dp3555]

I worked in tech and if you got training you were expected to stay for 1 year or pay based on time worked before you left. If you left after 6 months you were required to pay half the cost of schooling. When the employee would let the new company know of this beforehand the new employer would usually pay it if they really wanted you.

[@17h127]

My work paid for my college. I had a 6 year contract to work there due to how expensive it was. I ended up breaking it because they wouldn't hire me to do what they paid for me to do. I had a lot of meetings with HR and once with the CEO over it. The hiring manager refused to hire or even interview me for the many positions open in her department. My boss even walked into her office and closed the door to tell her how good of a worker I am and how it's not fair to the hospital to pay for secretaries to goto medical school and not utilize them. Eventually I left for the job I have now. HR never came after the tuition because they agreed it was unfair. With the thing I did it was very clear exchange and voluntary. I'm glad they had it because I was able to get through college with almost no loans. It wasn't shady TRAP orientation stuff.

[@leo.girardi]

"We taught you how to use our copy machine. Since you are leaving you owe us $500."

[@the_omg3242]

That sounds generous. I'm sure there's companies that show you where your locker is and which end of the time card to insert and value it at $10,000.

[@deconteesawyer5758]

@@the_omg3242 You are not counting the employer's cost of showing you where your locker is every day, and which end of the time card to put in every day you worked there either.

[@maysrg]

Sounds like I should have billed my employer for copier, printer, and computer repairs. I saved them a ton of money!

[@kwfinken]

Working in the IT industry, I have seen this for 30+ years, but the norm has been that you are told before you hire on and sign off on a repayment agreement BEFORE EACH training course. But there are some huge differences: 1) it was training that led to industry recognized certification, 2) the pay-off amount is usually prorated over the course of a year after training, 3) these are in high demand, high wage jobs and 4) the training is not legally required before performing the job. It makes sense for high wage jobs in these circumstances, but not for someone who already knows the job/information and is in a relatively low wage job, nor for workplace specific training.

[@kenyattaclay7666]

I'm not sure if the rules are still the same but when I was in my junior year of high school 33 years ago and looking at colleges I was looking at the military academies and one of the first things they tell you is that if you decide to leave you could be liable to repay a certain amount. I didn't wind up applying, not because of that, but at least they tell you right upfront. I don't have a problem with companies asking for cost of training only for you to quit a couple weeks in but they should tell you that before you accept the job.

[@redjoker365]

About 20 years ago they used to say it cost a quarter of a million dollars to train a cadet, up your ass a nickel at a time

[@htomerif]

Yeah, that's a tough one, especially for a CDL. That is about what it costs to go through a program and get certified. I know in the Army, people were getting obscene sign-on bonuses (like $20k-$30k) that would be taken back if they left for any reason before their enlistment was up but I know at least for my original MOS, the actual training cost was something like $250k.

[@timraber6575]

I retired from our local wastewater plant over 5 years ago. I worked there over 18 years. We were expected to train new employees to run a plant that had taken me years to figure out. My training cost the local utility thousands of dollars. It is difficult to teach technique, what different smells and sounds could mean. Quarks in running different equipment that the new help would get confused quickly. This job took me many years to feel comfortable. And we worked long hours and weekends. Many occupations have these problems. People hire on, get experience, then move on to a better paying job.

[@MrMosley151]

When I first got my cdl I had no experience at all. The company that hired me paid for my training. I worked for the company for at least one. If I left before the year was over, I would have to pay off the difference. I was told this before I started so I knew going in. I've been hearing about this happening now after people are hired and trained. The new employees were not told up front. This is happening more and more.

[@dereksmith1803]

Yep. Went through this when I became a LEO. They paid me my salary while also putting me through a 6 month long academy to obtain my accreditation. I had to sign a contract stating that I would stay with that dept for 3 years, otherwise I owed the prorated amount if I quit before the 3 year period. I am now a small business owner driving a truck (one of your infamous CDL viewers) and paid $5k to put myself through 4 weeks of training in order to earn my CDL. Many of the big carriers will train you and require you to work for them for 1 year in order to "pay then back" for giving you the CDL training. Very common practice. Simple concept - if you don't want to pay them if you leave, then pony up the cash to pay for the training yourself. Unfortunately, we live in a day and age where many people feel entitled and don't want to take responsibility for anything themselves.

[@johnree6106]

It's one thing to be informed about it most likely during contract signing, but it sounds like some of it is them charging you for it without being told that if they quit they would be charged. My company paid for my cert required 1 year employment otherwise it will be deducted from my last paycheck. Afterwards renewal is covered and no charge. They just wanted insurance that after certification I wouldn't just quit and use it other places

[@dericksmith2137]

See, I made reference to the police academy. Apparently it was a big problem. Larger departments were sponsoring recruits, covering academy fees and a living allowance or even a starting wage. But then the graduating cadet took a better paying job at a rural department. So a prorated contract sounds extremely fair. As long as everyone has a contract that establishes the exact requirements, both for the employee and the employers. *i mentioned in my comment a company that offers signing bonus. $5k based on staying 5yrs, prorated.

[@bboywolf]

You gotta be dumb, if you want to be hired for the job you need training to do the job... the job is supposed to give you that training so you can do the job well for the company.

[@grahvis]

It is one thing if the training is for a qualification needed throughout the industry but quite another if it is just for the employer's benefit, especially if it is peculiar to that employer.

[@norml.hugh-mann]

There's quite a few that have no opportunities to save up housands of dollars....when literally NO PLACE IN THE USA can one make min wage and afford an apartment...and that's not including food, transportation, phone ect.. But you seem quite willing to judge everybody as just not wanting to work...somehow someone working full time as much as they can "doesn't want to work" right? A

[@gordonshumway7239]

I think the reference to: “Employers needing ways to retain employees without improving wages or working conditions …” tells you everything. These agreements are pretty outrageous in general. Outside of very specific situations, like the pilot trying example, they should be unenforceable. And even then, the agreement must be agreed before hiring. In any case, the reimbursement must also have some relationship to the actual out of pocket cost. These arbitrary figures like $6k can’t be allowed.

[@snex000]

If the revenues can't cover the cost of higher wages, what exactly is YOUR plan, Mr. Businessman? All of the stupid government interventions into the market that people like you support are what created this situation.

[@yunofun]

They should be required to give you an itemized bill. I quit truck driving after a year because it just didn't suit me at all. The company I worked for billed me $4500 or so for my training. In that bill though they broke down everything. The cost of my CDL itself, wages for my trainer (who would have otherwise been driving for them) and so on. It was... Fair. Plus I knew that was going to be a thing ahead of time if I didn't stick it out for 5 years.

[@snex000]

@@yunofun Sorry, what? Hiring an employee is a risk you choose to take. If the employee doesn't work out, you don't get to bill them for it.

[@snex000]

@ What on earth are you taking about? Are you even replying to the correct comment? Nobody is "entitled" to anything. If you AGREE to work for peanuts, that's your own fault.

[@snex000]

@ There is no such thing as "proper wages." A wage is offered. That wage is either accepted or rejected.

[@sethmcpherson1219]

I'm about 99% positive that in WA, employers MUST pay for company specific training. I vaguely remember being told this over 20 years ago at my first job at Wendy's. For this specific case of the salon, the salon owner could be liable for even bringing the claim to court, as WA has some "interesting," labor protections.

[@RobinMoreOrLess]

I just subscribed, after watching your videos for a bit. I'm happy to see you and others talking about this

[@rdbuckels]

In my industry, we had certifications that we were required to take. Such as forklift, respirator, Design of Experiments, etc., but from one employer to the next, your certifications were not recognized. They claim that their classes were employer and jobsite specific, but in my experience they were the same and some of the outsourced training was completed by the same companies. I have to admit in my 54 years of existence, I've never heard of this practice of charging for training, that wasn't specifically spelled out before employment even began.

[@court2379]

There are programs to become a pilot that are funded by a company (usually a regional airline). Yes there is definitely a minimum term contract for several years.

[@zburnham]

That's hundreds of thousands of dollars. $1000 for shitty training that doesn't transfer is something else.

[@Caderic]

Really? In the US? Where?

[@court2379]

@@Caderic Search ATP flight school

[@miatakid2]

And all while nobody knew that bench was full, of certified fork lift drivers.

[@patrickcagle8566]

My wife always gets fired up after your videos and she was a teacher who had to have training every year. If they can do that to teachers, they'll never leave. TRAP is a perfect name

[@skraf883]

Awesome shirt, Steve. I used to go to the Hamventions in the mid to late 80's to pick up parts for home building PCs.

[@danb2529]

Had nearly the opposite of this happen when I started work. About 12 of us started a new job, given about 8 weeks (classroom-based) training. It was to be shift work (giving a 50% shift bonus for working nights/weekends, etc), which we were paid during training, even though we were only working normal office hours (thanks !). At the end of the 8 weeks, 11 of us moved onto the actual job, working all hours of the week, but 1 person did not. Turns out he was a student, who was on his summer break and had no intention of ever doing the actual job, he was going back to University to finish his degree. So he got 8 weeks of full pay for sitting in a classroom. Company not impressed, but nothing they could do about it.

[@scottmacd37]

When I joined a particular Canadian security company which is Nation wide, I had to attend a week of training. I had to attend in uniform, at the companies local HQ. Was not paid for that training week and had to sign a document that if I left the company , in the first 3 months ( probation) I would owe the company almost $300 for that training.

[@mage1439]

You not being paid for the training in and of itself sounds sketchy af.

[@kicapanmanis1060]

Seems fair though.

[@allaboutroofing2]

@@mage1439 guess you've never worked commissioned sales?

[@BardedWyrm]

@@allaboutroofing2 Industry standard practices are not immune from being "sketchy". "af" or otherwise.

[@nurseadrianern]

Hard no

[@LakewayAudits]

Walmart has never trained me as a customer to ring up my merchandise. I've got to locate my items or sizes that could be in any random spot in the store, put them in the cart and then go scan them hoping the correct price rings up and put them in a bag. Then the cash part likes to randomly shoot your bill back out until it excepts it or the card reader is having a moment. The struggle of learning on the job and paying retail at the same time.....

[@MakerBoyOldBoy]

I was employed by a county jail complex. They practiced several illegal hiring procedures. One I confronted publicly during a group orientation meeting and learned about another while working. Due to the environment I experienced a panic attack for the first time during a security lockdown. The incident led to my being let go without having to pay the "training" fee. That is the solution to this requirement - find a creative or series of creative ways to be fired but not chargeable offenses! You will never list them positively due to their high turnover and it saves money and a good story to tell later.

[@L0v3_Murd3r_0n3]

Last year I got a job offer as a diesel mechanic apprentice. Got to fly out to Dallas, TX for 9 weeks of training. Was told that if I complete the training but leave before my contact was finished I had to pay the company back the money. I got paid during training at a reduced rate and housing costs was deducted from my check every week. I had no formal training in diesel but did go to school for automotive. It reduced the overall apprentice hours I need to fulfill. Everything was explained to me before signing on and it has been the best decision. I'm making good money at a job I enjoy doing. Granted I have been doing jobs that were outside the scope of what my contact stated, I wouldn't change anything about it. I don't plan on leaving anytime soon.