ENDING THE DEBATE - Animation Canceling in ESO

[@84632]

So that first screenshot is from the chat on a podcast called elder scrolls off the record (on the quest gaming network). I was a regular listener and I remember this being a discussion at some point. Gina and Jess would hang out in the chat during episodes sometimes and answer questions like that when they could. I have it in my mind that there was and eso live where someone (maybe Rich Lambert?) talked about how weaving was not something they expected the player base to do but once it emerged they embraced it and started designing around it.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

That's honestly super impressive! I super glad someone who actually listened to those podcasts saw this video and responded! Back then I didn't engage with this game on that level and now kinda feel like I missed out, even though those podcasts and early livestreams are still available. Thanks for your comment!

[@danielhurst8863]

If you watch the tips, one literally tells you how to light attack cancel. BTW, animation canceling was very old before ESO. It was heavily used, as an example, in Asheron's Call. You could jump in AC and cancel any animation and what you were doing would complete. Example, logging out took 10 seconds, but if you jumped, you logged out immediately. In every MMO, one of the first thing people test is animation canceling.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

This is absolutely correct. This is a traditional action combat mechanic that has been around for ages and aids in making combat more fluid and responsive.

[@GentlemenMonkey]

My historical understanding is that the function itself was intended, it's how players used it that was unexpected. Like animation cancelling the attack was intended, they just didn't expect the light attack weaving meta. /shrug

[@GentlemenMonkey]

@@nickjordan7945 It's not about if I like it or not, nor am I defending it. I'm stating what my understanding is based on what the devs have said over the years and basic game dev knowledge. If you can't conceive of developers intentionally permitting animation cancelling though, that's a lack of imagination on your part. A multitude of games have this as a means to make the game play feel smoother. It's not that it's difficult to fix (because it's not), it's that from the player perspective dying to an attack you could have avoided if you weren't locked into an animation feels bad. The only thing unusual about ESO is the significance animation cancelling has had on DPS meta. Maybe you should ask yourself why you feel so strongly about the issue that you're setting up a strawman. I haven't advocated for or against it and honestly I don't feel strongly either way, but you've got this whole narrative going on. If you had actually read what I wrote, you'd understand that I didn't say they intended for this, as you put it, "exploitish crap". To the contrary, I said they didn't foresee how animation cancelling would be used. It's REALLY not unusual for devs to have something work a certain way for a perfectly good reason but users end up exploiting it in ways they didn't predict. The question now is if you want to be locked into animations or not. If you don't want to be locked into animations and you also don't like the animation cancelling meta then you understand the quandary. It's not that it's hard to change the animation cancelling meta, it's that the alternative is widely considered to be far worse. Can't have your cake and eat it to.

[@salinaember9527]

zos can improve AC by adding an actual rhythm feature, where it accounts for weave dmg on every successful rhythmic input, w/o the visual AC between abilities. you essentially build up a 3x, 5x, or 8x via normal weave rotation w/ visual, sound, cues, & confirmations. during a combo, 3x begins LA weave dmg, 5x-7x provides MA dmg & resource returns, 8x+ provides HA dmg & resource returns. simply stop attacking for 1.5 sec after a desired multiplier to grant the bonuses. that resets the counter. keep the multiplier active for basic LA weave dmg. the "heartbeat" key/button input of 2 or 3 LA's in succession determines if it's a weave combo, otherwise a single LA input between abilities launches a normal attack w/o bonuses. zos can also include auto target LA/MA/HA without the dmg boost weaving, which only auto attacks after an ability cooldown (for accessibility or w/e)

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

Holy fuck. I should just give you my channel, meagre as it is. I have no idea if this would really work for ESO, but its such a great idea and so creative! I'm sure there are games that have done something similar but its honestly an insanely cool suggestion! Thanks for sharing! I should also mention that having an auto target LA/MA/HA thing isn't such a bad idea. There are some games experimenting with a sort of hybrid system similar to this and while I don't know how successful they are I honestly love seeing developers try new ideas like this and truly give players more ways to engage with the game, on their terms.

[@salinaember9527]

@@BlackBlazeGaming the top criticism ive heard for years about eso is the combat. animation cancelling weaving is why a lot of players never returned. zos should definitely consider making it more intuitive to please both veterans and new/casual players if they want to grow their game. otherwise it will remain niche in comparison to other mmos. i have no issue with it personally. but it's fun discussing it because there's a small glimmer of hope that zos will actually change it up.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

@@salinaember9527 And they've continued to iterate and improve on it because they stay passionate and continue to strive for improvement.

[@memitim171]

It was clearly unintended originally, you only have to read the patch notes to see that. To me it isn't really relevant though, the only thing that matters is how it plays, and even though I do like this game I'm not going to deny it has awful combat, and the animation cancelling isn't doing it any favors, most games just have auto attack but for some reason you have to risk RSI to do decent damage in this game, why? It's not interesting or fun, and it's not because of animation cancelling itself, it's how it's used. If you compare this to the way ani cancels work in say, Monster Hunter World it's night and day, the game is a masterful display of mechanics, honed through years of experience and sat next to it, ESO is just a spammy mess.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

Was not expecting to hear one of the most obtuse, anti-newcomer combat systems be praised as a prime example of action combat that ESO should take notes from. Of all the out of touch takes, this one is on its own level. Not saying MHW is bad, its actually excellent, and the combat is... fine mostly. But like I said, one of the worst newcomer experiences, and actually requires hours of grinding to even be playable at points. I understand challenge but its difficulty curve is laughably amateur.

[@TakaChan569]

@@BlackBlazeGaming You are way off on that take, MHW was my very first MH game(never got into the Nintendo ones) and it was easy to get into.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

@@TakaChan569 I mean its mostly fine until Master Rank monsters start tearing the controls out of your hands because you don't have a highly specialized gear set just for that monster's mechs even though its not the monster you came to fight in the first place. Oh cool I get to farm the same monster 1700 times just to get one rare drop so I can make a decoration that stops ROARS from completely disabling my character at which point I'll finally be able to fight things. So much of MHW's late game is walled off based on gear, and while that's certainly fine for what it is, does not make it a shining example of excellent action combat design. Its an action combat game suffocating under a mountain of RPG style buffs, debuffs, and numbers, with a timer thrown in to make it more obnoxious. What's extra weird is for someone to offer an example of excellent action combat, and choose a Capcom game that ISN'T Devil May Cry, the literal pinnacle of action combat design, at least in terms of what its going for, with nothing held back by meaningless systems tacked on for modern sensibilities like God of Four's ridiculous armor and RPG mechs. And while MHW might have been easy for you to get into, that's anecdotal. The truth is that a vast majority of people who've picked it up get only a few monsters in before dropping it and not returning. It took me three attempts to really dig into that game, and while I do love it, and even consider it a masterpiece, it is undeniably grindy, with a steep learning curve, and I would never consider it a prime example of action combat. Its just a good example of tiny person fighting really big thing that requires tons of prep to take on.

[@memitim171]

@@BlackBlazeGaming I don't know what to say to that other than it's really not that hard... 😆

[@mattbuergel8487]

I don't understand the point of even discussing if it's intended or not. It's in the game, and it helps you win, so people will use it. If you don't, you'll fall behind, it's that simple. Whether it's intended or not has no bearing on anything, until such point the devs come out and change/fix or ban it, which they won't do.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

Its because people who come from other MMOs aren't used to action combat systems and aren't open to the idea of having to accurately time fast button presses and direct character control to maximize damage output so they just find any excuse to avoid actually improving their skill.

[@TakaChan569]

Wait so this is still a thing in ESO, i played the beta and then only picked up the game like early this year but this topic has always been fascinating to me lol.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

To be honest, its a good time to get into it. It was definitely unimpressive at launch and is in a much better state now. It was surprising to see so many people that were still resistant to the core combat mechanics, claiming them to be bugged when they weren't but I'm glad I was able to finally bury this thing.

[@WTFbell-fx7ju]

I love animation canceling, they tried to nerf it a few years back but it didn't work. I feel without it classes like Warden and Necro would be overly clunky. Alot of players cry about exploits and so on but they don't really know what they are doing. While fighting, players should be weaving bashs to counter the enemy, causing of balance and stuns. Not many players use block or bash when fighting. The only time I see most players use block is when they become overwhelmed or their health bar drops. I guess it could be an unfair issue for players with disabilities but anyone that doesn't should be practising on a dummy until the rotation is nailed. Anyway blah blah blah have a nice day.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

Yeah and people with disabilities can benefit from Velothi or Oakensoul builds now, but Oakensoul's introduction made the devs panic and nerf light attacks, effectively punishing veteran players.

[@markus.schiefer]

I remember the discussion. They simply declared an oversight / side effect a feature, because their combat didn't feel good enough and animation cancelling added more button presses / clicks to the combat. And they have been fighting the consequences of that decision ever since, trying to narrow the gap between players who do it expertly and those who don't do it at all, because the result was a balancing nightmare. Personally, I hated it from the start. It's just a stupid way to play and for new players it's annoying to learn and it's certainly not intuitive. Games need to make sense within the context of their world, but when it comes to things that exist in the real world they shouldn't work differently without a very good reason. In my opinion, animation cancelling has only one place, and that is for emergency / oh-shit defensive skills, and only in games that are not souls-like. If combat needs animation cancelling or weaving to not be boring, it's a failed design. But arguing against it after the "elite" has used it for 10 years is just asking for trouble and a waste of time. Much more important to me is how much they dumbed down the game, especially the open world over the years. I can't even enjoy new areas because I almost fall asleep. Nothing is a danger, even in the most basic gear, and players are barely ever required to react, block or dodge. And to my surprise, that was the main reason my girlfriend, who is pretty much a potato when it comes to games, didn't like ESO. I wonder how many others think similarly.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

This simply isn't true. Again, animations in ESO are designed to support the mechanics of combat, so due to the attack priority system, certain animations needed to be cancelable to match what the game allows players to accomplish. Animation canceling or rather, stopping a follow-through to change course or throw off an opponent exists in real world hand to hand combat if you wanna get the realism argument going. Odd to hear someone say animation cancels belong only in non-soulslike games despite the fact that the Souls series is loaded with animation cancels and are there as a core part of the strategy for PvP. Its also interesting to hear you say ESO dumbed down the game over time when it is more complex now than ever, though if you mean only in the open world, it was always barebones as that is not the core of ESO's content. Overworld stuff is easy so you can breeze through it and focus on the story, something that doesn't play well with a multiplayer setup. And it ultimately just goes to prove my point that casual players who refuse to learn how combat works and get the most out of the experience are the ones who complain about anim cancels, but even without them would never even attempt veteran content. This game isn't for you and that's fine, but to say its poorly designed or even call ZOS, myself, and the core audience of this game liars because we're actually open to the idea of playing a game as its intended, and pushing the mechanics to their limits is just absurd. People like you need to learn the difference between something being bad, and something being not to your taste.

[@wintersnoble]

What if we are hangry?

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

Then lets get some fooooood

[@wintersnoble]

Wings?

[@matrixcom69]

I don't think the issue is really about it being a bug or not. People just don't like ESO's combat. I'm all for the customization it offers outside of the gameplay, but the combat itself is one of the weakest of MMO's in general. The meta pushing weaving only made people more salty.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

I think best or worst combat is mostly opinion here. Like from a technical standpoint, its functional, fluid, and responsive though the GCD holds it back a little. I personally can not stand combat systems where I don't have direct control over my character's action and positioning. I don't want to feel like a director giving actors blocking, I want to feel like the character, so in my view games like WoW, SWTOR, or the MTG MMO have "bad" combat in my view or more accurately, combat that doesn't appeal to me. Many people who love this game often love it for its combat and I don't think its fair to say it has one of the weakest of MMOs, when its among a very very slim few who even utilize a full action combat system, and readily outpaces other games that do like DCUO with its sluggish, locked in place attacks, or BDO which, despite having beautiful and satisfying combat, is completely crippled by the fact that it hinges on CC. One stun = death because there is no counterplay. I think people who dislike ESO's combat use anim canceling as a way to say that its poorly designed, incorrectly chalking it up to a bug, when the reality is, they come from a game like WoW and don't expect action combat, or maybe they come from Skyrim, easily one of the worst performers in terms of action combat mechanics and responsiveness.

[@PxNxWxGxW]

Tbh there should be zero global cool down. If you can pull off fast rotations you should be rewarded for it.

[@linusperssonsgamingchannel7354]

No.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

I'd be okay with no global cooldown, but I do understand why people wanted it. Its just poorly implemented.

[@cassiaphire3645]

Animation cancel is ok for the user to stop short of going through with completing the skill. However, getting the full effect of the skill before the completion of the animation is bad. The defender of the attack doesn't have the opportunity to counter the skill by recognizing the animation. The concept is all one sided towards the attacker. If one cancels the animation of the skill, then the benefit, i.e. damage/effect of the skill should also be cancelled.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

That's absurd. All animation cancels in ESO that don't cancel the attack still have the windup and the only counterplay is blocking or dodging. If you really need to block/dodge every hit your build isn't up to snuff, and in tense situations where getting a dodge or block is important, you should still be able to do that because once again, the windup is still visible. Skills that require more specific counterplay are either not cancelable in the same way or provide a much clearer telegraph. Would you really go back and say that Street Fighter 2 was bad/uncompetitive because of combos and animation cancels?

[@cassiaphire3645]

@@BlackBlazeGaming No, it is not absurd. The player should have the choice to block, dodge, counter, etc. This comment is not about what choice one makes to counter an attack, it is about being able to see the attack. Lastly, the attack should have to complete the end of the animation for the effect. This is a no brainer. Now, if you 'cancel' it because you sense danger and want to roll dodge yourself in the middle of the attack, that is fine, but the actual benefit of the animation should not be realized until the completion of the animation. To not have this condition is to only focus on the benefit of the attacker and not the defender. This isn't about how wonderful your build may be

[@Kooriaisu]

yea but like who cares actually? if they decided to keep it and build upon it lmao. animation cancelling is usually never intended. Also its never an exploit unless of course you have to use a third party program to do it

[@pindrop9536]

TLDRL He did no research for the claims in his last video and is now trying to blame other people for it.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

Cope harder and learn to weave

[@pindrop9536]

@@BlackBlazeGaming Perhaps I should make an 18m video about it... nah

[@pindrop9536]

@@BlackBlazeGaming can I just add that those who feel certain are stupid. I know you are angry and desperately trying to defend your mistake. Take it as a learning experience, be more humble and just make fun content.

[@Ghost-jq4ey]

this is some massive cope animation canceling is a glitch that obvious just like bhop was a glitch in counter strike and rocket jump is a glitch in tf2. if it is a good or bad thing that up to you but don't deny that it is a glitch

[@pokealong]

He never claimed otherwise. Bugs can become mechanics. Wall Jumping in Super Mario Bros originated from a glitch. Combos in Street Fighter originated from a glitch in Street Fighter 2. Rocket Jumping was a glitch in the Quake engine, which source is based on. That's why TF2 had it. But it actually originated in the original 1996 Quake. GTA was initially a racing game but the cop AI was wildly aggressive so it became GTA. Creepers in Minecraft were supposed to be pigs, but he mixed up the dimensions and made it tall instead of long. Retextured it and now we have creepers. Something originating from a bug doesn't mean it isn't an intended mechanic.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

@@pokealong Exactly. Sometimes bugs can be happy accidents that become features and everything you mentioned is a great classic example of that. In my previous video I talked about how the Street Fighter arcade had the unintended side effect of its programming that led to animation canceling, causing people to be able to create combos, which then became a core feature of every game after that. I also pointed out that the existence of animation canceling in action combat games derives from that original bug in SF, and has been a staple of these types of systems ever since. Hell I even animation cancel in Rune Factory because the combat is so restrictive and sluggish.

[@Ghost-jq4ey]

@@BlackBlazeGaming still not a intended mechanic. in the video you deny it is a glitch and just waved away every evidence against your point while stretching everything that goes in your favor

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

@@Ghost-jq4ey I literally showed the comments from the developers saying that it is outright not a glitch and intended behavior. Again, LA weaving was not expected of the player at first, but the mechanics of how it functions are designed and have been intentional from the start. Not only did the comments I showed from the devs confirm this but the existence of some animations being cancelable while others are not is hard proof that it is now, and has always been the core design of how attack interact with one another using the developer's "attack priority" system.

[@Pooter-it4yg]

I don't see how something that can be achieved by simply (even accidentally) entering two inputs a certain way can be called an exploit. And whether originally intended or not, it must be now since it could be prevented but isn't. And ultimately - who cares? Attack weaving isn't exactly difficult anyway, although some players seem to bother working hard on the optimum rhythm. So what?

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

This has basically been my stance from the beginning. Its not terribly hard to do, and with alternative options now like Oakensould Heavy Attack builds, not even necessary for respectable damage output. The weird thing is, someone has tried to call this video copium, but what would I be coping with? Being correct? Being able to perform a mechanic so many players can't/refuse to do?

[@baytownoutlaw9992]

Animation canceling is still a debate, the fact that people spend more time figuring about this game instead of enjoying it is proof of how crappy of a game it is

[@pokealong]

Lol what? In a day 500 people have viewed this video and 8 have commented. The game as 150,000-200,000 daily users. Imagine thinking 2% of a community being little bitches means the entire game is crap.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

Actually I think its the opposite. The fact that the discussion continues, and people are as passionate as they are proves to me that people love this game. If it was crappy it would have been binned years ago and no one would be talking about it. When a community accepts a game is just trash, either because of a confirmation bias, or because its just popular to shit on said game, the game tends to get left behind and its no longer "cool" to like it. Look at Cyberpunk, a landmark achievement in video game narrative, world design, writing, acting, and technology, but because most KZbinrs and media outlets latched on to the vast number of people who couldn't play it at launch, its rare to see discussion on just how incredible the game really is at its core and has been since day one, even though it was an incredibly successful game by every metric. Of course there's also the fact that people punished the devs rather than the suits that manage them who truly caused all the issues, but that's a different topic.

[@markus.schiefer]

@@BlackBlazeGaming Sorry, but Cyberpunk was a very flawed game, technically, design-wise, and had lots of missing features. -- Despite the amazing world that they built. It was clearly released prematurely, not only on (last-gen) consoles. Most criticism by KZbinrs and media was justified. CDPR was responsible and criticized for it, it didn't matter if it was the fault of "the developers" or "the suits". Also, I think, they all were to blame a little, because aside from the premature launch, there were a couple design issues, like the skill trees, the loot, the crafting, which were simply bad. As for ESO, the discussion is mostly between semi-casual players who see potential to improve the game and its core players who are content with the way it is, mostly because they got used to and, more importantly, good at it. That doesn't mean either group is right. My biggest wish for ESO is a difficulty option for the open world. In that sense, the One Tamriel changes kinda ruined the game for me, though to be fair, the way they split veteran levels between the factions was bad as well. Though, maybe the removal of crown crates is my biggest wish, thinking about it. Not every game has to be for everyone, but I still think that they could have handled a lot of things better and grown even bigger.

[@dinckelman]

I don’t really know why this is even a debate. A ton of games have animation cancelling as a technique, and to go one step further, encourage it during the tutorials. People who argue it’s a bug in ESO fall into the category of people who either 1. refuse to learn how to play, or 2. are bad at weaving because of a range of reasons. Before anyone calls me a slur, if you have accessibility issues, it is completely okay. I fully understand you

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

Someone also commented a way for ZOS to cater to people with accessibility concerns, and its not half bad honestly. And you're right, its very strange that this is a debate. I don't often see debates like this in other communities. Its not unheard of, but weird for it to go on this long.

[@kohtas]

I haven’t played ESO in years now and can’t believe this topic is still a hot issue. The player base of ESO will actually do everything they can to not actually learn a rotation or put any effort into piloting their character. Canceling and weaving are a part of combat, learn how to do it and git gud or don’t and be bad 😂 the game has almost no skill required to do well as it is.

[@BlackBlazeGaming]

Yeah, its a lot of anger from casual players who have the attitude of "don't tell me what to do" when you offer them build suggestions. To their credit there's a lot of elitists or just mildly rude people who offer build advice unsolicited, but I don't support those attitudes, and want people to feel welcome to play how they want. I will, however, temper the expectations of people who want to do trifecta achievements or other extremely difficult content but don't want to learn weaving.