Engaging N.T. Wright on Israel, Zionism and Biblical Prophecy

N.T. Wright (Tom Wright) is a leading New Testament scholar. In this podcast episode I interact with some questions he answered on The Unbelievable Podcast with Justin Brierley about Israel, Christian Zionism and biblical eschatology. Looks at Biblical interpretation and the way that Old testament prophecy is fulfilled. Is the modern state of Israel relevant in the Bible? How should we understand the prophecies in the bible about Israel.

[@PastorJared39]

Sorry...l'll stick with NT and fulfilment in Christ.

[@lesnasserden3212]

1. The Old Testament Abrahamic covenant cannot be isolated from the Mosaic covenant and other subsequent divine covenants. (Christian Zionism isolates the Abrahamic covenant.) 2. The Old Testament prophetic "Restoration of Israel" has to do with an eschatological Messianic kingdom of belief. (Christian Zionism has to do with a temporal nation of unbelief.) 3. The New Testament teaches that the Messiah (Jesus Christ) supremely fulfills the Israelite faith of the Old Testament. (Christian Zionism subtly downplays the role and ramifications of the Messiah.) 4. The New Testament prioritizes Christian ministry (i.e., love, prayer, evangelism, discipleship, and the ministry of the Holy Spirit) for all nations. (Christian Zionism prioritizes practical, political, and military aid for one nation.) Conclusion: Passionate and/or passive Christian Zionist belief is due to (a) a misconstrued sentimentalism toward the Jewish people, and (b) a shoddy exegesis (i.e., analysis) of scripture.

[@eugeneburt9627]

WEALTHY JEWS AND ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS FOR MANY YEARS BEEN GIVING CHRISTIAN ZIONIST PREACHERS BIG MONEY TO CONTINUE THEIR ONE SIDED PRO ISRAEL GOSPEL..... EVEN IN THE 1800s JEWS ENCOURAGED CHRISTIAN ZIONIST HERETICS TO SUPPORT JEWS RETURN TO PALESTINE...JEWS AT OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS PAID FOR SCOFIELD'S BIBLE TO BE PUBLISHED... SATAN IS WORKING BEHIND THE SCENE...UNFORTUNATELY WE AMERICANS CAN'T CRITCIZE ISRAEL OR WE ARE CALLED JEW HATERS..

[@seankennedy4284]

_"My kingdom is not of this world."_ By contrast, the political nation of Israel was established via the support of the British government. To wit, the 1917 'Balfour Declaration,'---communicating the British government's intent to see a political nation of Israel established in the land of Palestine---was addressed to Lord Rothschild. Anyone familiar with the intrigues of that family dynasty ought know exactly the nature of what and why regarding political Israel.

[@TogelTr]

God said: *Jer **31:31** “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,* Did that happen? I don't think so. The house of Israel and the house of Judah rejected the New Covenant. That was why they were punished as per the covenant/agreement of how God would deal with them, as described in Leviticus 26. But, would that happen? Yes, sure. When God proclaims something, He will make it happen. Just like when He promised to bring the Israelites under Moses into the promised land. The people rejected out of fear of the giants. God simply punished and let all who rejected died in the desert, but then brought their children into the land. God does not give up. God has also punished and rejected Israel who had rejected the New Covenant, but after thousands of years, He will finally bring their children into that covenant.

[@edeancozzens3833]

Paul tells us in Galatians 3-4 that the Seed in Genesis 12:1-3 was Jesus. Very clear.

[@edeancozzens3833]

Romans 9:6, "Not all who are of Israel are Israel."

[@edeancozzens3833]

Let's see, didn't the prophecies say that the Babylonian captivity would last 70 years, and it did. Then Ezra and Nehemiah and Zerubbabel led the Jews back. Then after 490 years Jesus came and fulfilled Daniel 9 and other scriptures, making a Jewish nation state obsolete. How can a nation of unregenerate anyone be more important to God than a group of people who receive and honor his Son, who is Him come in the flesh?

[@codyalexander3290]

Keep in mind gods promise to David. 😊

[@TogelTr]

God said: Jer 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, Did that happen? I don't think so. The house of Israel and the house of Judah rejected the New Covenant. That was why they were punished as per the covenant/agreement of how God would deal with them, as described in Leviticus 26. But, would that happen? Yes, sure. When God proclaims something, He will make it happen. Just like when He promised to bring the Israelites under Moses into the promised land. The people rejected out of fear of the giants. God simply punished and let all who rejected died in the desert, but then brought their children into the land. God does not give up. God has also punished and rejected Israel who had rejected the New Covenant, but after thousands of years, He will finally bring their children into that covenant.

[@edeancozzens3833]

Can you show me any verses in the New Testament, from Jesus or the Apostles, where a rebuilt Jewish state is ever mentioned? Gary Burge used his skills as a New Testament scholar to search book-by-book in the whole New Testament and did not find this anywhere. I reasoned that if a rebuilt Jewish state were to be an issue, someone in the New Testament would have mentioned it somewhere. Burge reports his findings in his excellent book JESUS AND THE LAND. The concluding chapter is worth the price of the book. There is a place where Jesus did curse the fig tree. It died. Then He said that that fig tree would again put on leaves but He also added that it would never bear fruit for God ever again. Jesus said that. He also said in Luke 19:27: "The king ended by saying, ‘But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence.’” Not a happy outcome there is it. Maybe we are in for 70 AD Part B. Then see Jeremiah 19:11

[@edeancozzens3833]

Jesus cursed that Fig Tree. He did say that it would again put on leaves which it did, but He also said that it would NEVER again bear good fruit for God. How can it? It's a branch that does not abide in the vine of Jesus, who said that no branch apart from being in Christ can produce fruit for God, and would be cut off and thrown into fires, (think 70 AD and more.) I think that Luke 19:27 tells us that 70 AD Part B very well could be coming.

[@JaguerRhye]

The fig tree would seem to represent the nation of Israel, especially the leadership, as a whole at that time which would never bring forth fruit by believing in Christ. If you recall, the nation as a whole, including the leadership rejected Christ as their king, believing that he did his miracles by the power of satan. In light of this, they were guilty of the unpardonable sin which was a national sin. There was not going to be any forgiveness for this sin. This sin warranted Gods judgement on the nation which occurred at Ad 70 when they were conquered by the romans. So is this passage teaching that there will never be a revival in the nation of Israel where they will all bring forth fruit and believing in Christ? Not all. In fact, Jesus makes it pretty clear later on this chapter that there is going to be a future generation of jews who will bring forth fruit. This would harmonize with Paul's words in Rom 9-11 which speaks of the future restoration of Israel. Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you (the cursed fig tree), and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (future regenerated nation of Israel).

[@lowe7471]

Not really "Engaging NT Wright" so much as "Engaging an Interview NT Wright Gave on Another Channel."

[@edeancozzens3833]

I think that Gary Burge's book JESUS AND THE LAND clearly shows that this return to the land by only the Jews is not right. Remember, there are 11-12 more tribes besides Jews.

[@5crownsoutreach]

Excellent critique. NT Wright's work and publications fall squarely in the supercessionist tradition, and God is leading the church out of this unbiblical view of Scripture and God's calling on the Jewish nation. Well done.

[@theReal_Jesse]

Galatians 3:19 and really the whole book is not a “spiritualization” of the promises but a realization of them. This is apostolic doctrine. Your “replacement theology” and “spiritualization” straw man of Wright’s statements is disingenuous. You presented this podcast a objective, and I hoped it to be so. But it went right to misrepresentation and straw man labeling. I had hoped for more intellectual criticism of my own beliefs but only found theological bullying as the opposition. Disappointing. Romans 4:13 - the promise was heir of the world. Acts 3:24-26 - Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham and Israel was the first of all nations to be blessed with the call to repentance. Galatians 3:14 - the blessing of Abraham comes to the nations through Jesus. Galatians 3:16 - Christ is the seed not a spiritualization of the seed and promises. Ephesians 2:11-22 - Jesus put both Jew and the nations to death in His body creating one new man in Him. This is not a changing of the scriptures but a revelation of the truth and God’s eternal purpose which had not before been revealed. I could go on, but you get the idea.

[@edeancozzens3833]

"My sanctuary is in their midst" is obviously the idea that the Temple is in the Body of Christ.

[@pyllytaskussa]

This is a surprisingly good "debate", even though only one side of the question is present. I believe you represented "the other side" quite fairly. Also you did explain yourself well. And I'm saying this as a person agreeing more with NT Wright in this "debate".

[@edeancozzens3833]

Pay attention to Jeremiah 24 where God shows Jeremiah that Jews were going to divide into Good Fig Jews like Peter, James, John, Mary and Martha who recognized and received Jesus when he came, and the Bad Fig Jews who did not, and many of whom perished in 70 AD as a result of still being under the wrath of God lost in their sins without forgiveness. (john 3:36)

[@windyday8598]

john 4:19-24 no one will worship in jerusalem-----spirit and truth not location

[@kevinrombouts3027]

Absolutely fascinating. I've been troubled by this Dispensationalist/ Supercessionalist division. I'm a big fan of Tom Wright but I have been thinking he doesn't have the full picture on this issue. You have been very helpful here. Thank you.

[@edeancozzens3833]

After Jesus rebuilt the Temple in 3 days, from thence forth the Temple of God on earth is the Body of Christ. So, who has set himself up in the Body of Christ and is the man of sin? He does exist and has for centuries. Yes it makes perfect sense.

[@edeancozzens3833]

I believe Wright is right. In Christ there is no distinctions between Jews or Greeks.

[@Netgazum]

That's what Paul said in Galatians 3.

[@edeancozzens3833]

Futurists constantly make the error that Israel and Jews are synonymous. If you look closely you will find that there are no less than 7 different definitions for Israel in the Bible. I first learned this idea by reading the Appendix by John Stott in Stephen Sizer's book ZION'S CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS? Two of these different Israels are mentioned in Romans 9:6 Not all (genetic) Israel are the (Israel) of God. So which of the seven Israels is it referring to when it says "all Israel will be saved". Which of the seven Israels? I believe it was the second Israel in Romans 9:6 who God recognizes as His Israel which is by faith, only those who go through the Door of Jesus, the Passover Lamb.

[@edeancozzens3833]

The now Born Again Israel began with the Good Fig Jews who received Jesus, like Peter, James, John, Mary and Martha. Very clear. So no replacement at all. But the only way into the reborn Born Again is through the Door who is Jesus. Under the Torah, any Israelite who did not observe the Passover was to be killed or expunged from the Covenant Community. Jesus was that Passover Lamb.

[@TogelTr]

Jesus said: Mt 21:43 *Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.* Kingdom of God was taken from Israel, and given to the church. So, Israel remained Israel, and the church is something else. It is the body of the Messiah.

[@Liminalplace1]

I follow wright in the areas of historical research, as that is his strength. John Walton on interpretation of the Old Testament is a great corrective to alot of Wright imaginative grand narratives.. a text cannot meant what it never meant.. The NT authors reveal fulfillment not reinterpretation of authors intent in the OT. I think using terms such as supersssionism or Premillenalism or whatever just get in the way.

[@larrymcclain8874]

Matthew 23:29-39

[@edeancozzens3833]

All through the Bible is the principle of a remnant.

[@larrymcclain8874]

Matthew 22:1-14

[@edeancozzens3833]

Romans 11 does not say anything about the return of the Jews to the Land. In Romans 9-11 Paul is talking about the ten northern tribes who were divorced and sent into captivity. They could only be remarried after the redemptive work of Jesus. The Apostles then took the Gospel to them, starting on the Day of Pentecost. After the Gospel spread to them these groups became the Christian nations of Europe. They are remarried formerly divorced House of Israel tribes aka Gentiles. Think of the great things that has come for the Kingdom from those nations, including Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Scotland, Ireland, England, France, Spain, and the whole British Empire. These received the Gospel and have taken it to the world like none others because they are the treasure buried in the field (Matt. 13:44), and the Prodigal Son. They are the mold-able pot that was remolded into the new pot of the Church that Jeremiah saw in Jeremiah 18-19.

[@edeancozzens3833]

And I read that Dr Wright enhances his personal prayer life, study, and writing inspiration by praying in tongues, as do I and many others. Holy Spirit is wonderful in enhancing and enlightening our thinking and inspiring our writing. People compose music like tgat too. Holy Spirit never ran out of love or power. So illogical to think He would. If anything we need more of His help, not less.

[@Netgazum]

Hehe, this guy makes the spiritual sound like its not real or something. The spiritual is just as real as you arel, God is a spirit.

[@miketodd8]

Excellent

[@edeancozzens3833]

You seem to be ignorant of the fact that the first Jew in the Bible was Judah, the Father of the tribe of Judah. How do you handle the other 11-12 tribes who were not Jews? Ever thought of that? The House of Judah as different from the House of Israel. What became of these tribes of the House of Israel? They did not go back to the land. Where and who are they today? Both Paul and Peter used verses from Hosea 1 which shows that in those places when they were using the name Israel they were clearly referring to the ten northern tribes of "the lost sheep of the House of Israel." This is the Israel Paul was referring to in Romans 9-11. Notice that the word Jew appears many only one time in Romans 9-11, which shows that Paul understood and was still working with the differences between the House of Judah and the House of Israel.

[@edeancozzens3833]

Isn't it wonderful that the Gospel left the world with one race being superior?

[@alanhawkins_44]

At least this helps me to understand a few more things about this position.

[@sketchesbyboze]

This was so helpful, thank you!

[@simonnattrass2171]

Brilliant ❤❤❤ well done Thomas

[@briank1726]

Please define Israel.

[@larrymcclain8874]

Matthew 21:33-44

[@edeancozzens3833]

Hold on, the prophecy in Jeremiah 31 was fulfilled in Jesus. Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled when the Jews were brought back to the Land and God did make a new covenant of peace with them. That was fulfilled in Jesus. Past tense. They were restored to the land after their captivity in Babylon and then Jesus came. Consider what happened on the Day of Pentecost when the Spirit visibly moved from the old stone temple and tabernacled in the bodies of the believers and the New Temple in Jesus began being built even as it continues to this day.

[@hamish001]

Is there any interpretation of anything in the Old Testament alone that could ever not see as heretical (at best) the notion of god himself… not a mere man appointed by god but the god of Judaism and the OT… incarnating himself in the flesh and then being humiliatingly scourged, spat on, and crucified? My understanding is that nothing at all within the Old Testament alone could permit this to be believed without direct contradiction. And yet it’s what we believe about Jesus. Believing in the New Testament I think requires us to believe that the OT scriptures weren’t complete enough theologically or historically to account for what Jesus the messiah turned out to be… or to even properly interpret its own prophecies. The New Testament adds ideas that could never be reconciled with an OT understanding without full and novel reinterpretation of the OT. Reading just the OT, you could only ever reasonably have a totally different vision of the end times, purpose for Israel, and idea of what a messiah could be like, which Jews before and after Jesus did, and do. But I’m open to correction, if someone can explain.

[@hamish001]

Let’s say we grant dispensationalism, the apocalypse happens, Jewish people get right with god and build their kingdom and rule it without challenge on the earth until the end of time. Is the point, theologically, that they simply reside there and gentile Christians reside in other places? All of creation and human history ultimately revolved, as a matter of theology, around that physical detail?

[@edeancozzens3833]

Pay attention: In Romans 9:6-8, not all (genetic) Israel are Israel (in God's eyes). I think that it is the second born again Israel all of which will be saved.

[@qazyman]

What you're doing is wrong and strengthens the argument that dispensationalist lack the character to produce legitimate doctrine.

[@edeancozzens3833]

It comes down to what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3. Those who receive and bless the Seed of Abraham, namely Jesus, will be blessed with eternal life. But those who curse and reject Jesus will be cursed and remain under the wrath of God.

[@tommarshall5632]

Outstanding analysis of N.T. Wright’s eschatology.