Engine Failure: What is the best solution? Prop Stopped vs Windmilling

👉Take our online PILOT GROUND SCHOOL✈
fly8ma.com/
In this video we take a look at what is the most efficient way to glide an airplane down to a safe landing after an engine failure (total loss of thrust). We also look at the most realistic way to practice engine failures, as reducing the throttle to idle is not necessarily an accurate representation of a total loss of thrust.
Also keep in mind, that baring any real catostraphic internal failure, some of the most likely causes for a loss of thrust would be pilot induced due to selecting the wrong fuel tank, or potentially selecting a fuel tank with contamination (water, dirt, etc). Keeping a propeller turning and thus the engine turning (maintaining oil pressure, magnetos firing, fuel pump pumping if installed, and some amount of flow through the carburetor) will give you the best chance of restoring thrust as you select a different fuel tank, try switching mags, apply carb heat, alternate air, etc.
🛩️Private Pilot:
-Everything you need to know start to finish
-How to choose an Instructor
-How to perform the maneuvers
-Airspace
-Landings
-Oral and Checkride prep (premium version)
-And so much more! Try it for free with the link below!
bit.ly/2I3evAd
🌦️Instrument Pilot Ground School:
-Learn all the abbreviations and IFR speak
-Approach Plates and Procedures
-Airspace
-Rules and Regulations
-Systems
-Real World Scenarios
-Accident case studies when things went wrong
-Written test prep
-Oral and Checkride Prep
-Etc, Click the link below to check out the course!
bit.ly/2I3hZTr
🛫Commercial Pilot Bootcamp:
-Learn about Holding Out
-Maintenance Requirements
-Systems
-Airspace
-Rules and Regulations
-See full oral exams and checkride videos
bit.ly/2I5W4eo
👉Check out our many other courses too!✈
-Tailwheel
-Crosswind Landings
-Weather
-Airspace
-Seaplane
-Sport Pilot
-Spin Awareness
-Accident Case Studies
-And more! Click below to see all courses:
bit.ly/2I4whDp
#fly8ma #flighttraining #aviation #bushplane
Your Support Makes our Videos possible! Thank You!
Support us at: / fly8ma
Check out our site at fly8MA.com
The FLY8MA.com Free Online Ground School for Sport and Private Pilots is available to everyone as a means to make flying more affordable and increase learning for everyone. We are funded with the help of our viewers and subscribers to our website: www.fly8ma.com and our Patreon page: / fly8ma
Every dollar helps us to grow our project into a comprehensive online ground school for Sport, Private, Instrument, and Commercial Pilots. We greatly appreciate all of your support and hope you will share us with your friends and family in #aviation.
FLY SAFE!
-Jon

[@beomseokim683]

You're legend. I'm a student pilot now studying emergency procedure, there was no one who explains what engine failure is really meaning, and what happens depending on the situations. Cheers !

[@fly8ma.comflighttraining199]

Hey! I'm glad this was helpful, good luck with your training!

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

I used to teach Prop Stopped real landings to my students BEFORE SOLO. But i did them after a high base leg to a runway with a nice overrun just in case. Cessnas didnt stop the prop until 55 knots or about 60 mph. So you had to slow it down to that speed to stop the prop. I stopped the prop on a high base leg with some flaps to reduce the stalling speed to under the 57 mph with no flaps stalling speed of C150 . Prop Stopped Speed is under the Vglide speed of most airplanes, so is dangerous BS to post to stop the prop. Only some LSA's or very low useful load Cessnas 172 and up model you can stop the prop and not stall turning base or final. Many have stalled that way. CFITOMAHAWK poster below was one of my students

[@RaspySquares]

Best online instructor right here.

[@BrandonSchmit]

This makes sense with physics. A running engine is actually still biting the air. If you think about the drag of a prop, it's just the frontal surface area. Think of a square volume of air (packet) as wide as the prop hitting it directly. If the prop is not moving, then it has all the air impacting that surface area at 90mph and the entire packet of air has to completely move out of the way of the prop surface and go around it. This causes some drag force equal to the weight of that air packet x 90mph. When the prop is windmilling, it's windmilling due to the same incoming air. If the air is turning the prop, then it's not giving the same frontal force for the same time period. As the propeller spins, that individual air packet we are thinking about initially hits the front of the propeller and applies the same force. But a fraction of a second later, the windmilling propeller has moved some distance away from the air packet so it presents less surface area to hit the air packet and part of the air packet has a clean path so the force is reduced. So by windmilling, you always have less drag force being pushed on the prop because it's always moving out of the way. That air is doing work on the prop by turning it so the drag is reduced by the amount of work that is being converted into the rotation of the prop.

[@imontime77]

Totally agree. If your engine is running at all, then keep it running to whatever RPM you can get out of it and it will better your chances of getting to a good spot to put it down.

[@Captndarty]

The best solution is to use your parachute to jump out of the aircraft and follow the plane to its crash zone all while filming it……. All jokes aside I have an electric constant speed and I gain about 250fpm when I father my prop when the engine is stopped Vs stopped in fine pitch.

[@fly8ma.comflighttraining199]

If you can feather that certainly is quite different. Anyone flying a twin can attest to the huge relief in drag when you feather the prop on a dead engine

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

Father the prop ? You screw the prop ?

[@Kierrakrishan]

thank you for your great videos and great instruction. I appreciate you💛

[@robstanton9215]

I always enjoy your videos immensely. “No BS let’s just let the airplane tell us”. I’m with you brother! I’m not interested in “speculated intelligencia”, most of these folks in these forums who state things as fact have never put their fads to the test. Yes, I said fads not facts. 🤠👍

[@CFITOMAHAWK]

Many CFI's just ASSS ume instead of showing the proof.

[@hillcrestannie]

Great video. I’m glad you did this test. It will be stuck in my databank of gray matter and hopefully I can pull it up when needed. Thanks

[@budowens6478]

Very good John, you’re very knowledgeable pilot.

[@rednkfn]

Did not realize you switched channels. Literally thought something happened to you. Nice to see you again.

[@firepilot109]

Great video! Glad to see you back! Trying finish up my IFR before DPE test and been going back through your old videos and they help alot!

[@fly8ma.comflighttraining199]

Glad to hear they help!

[@blueprintfx8033]

Best flight instructor I seen by far on KZbin , I’m getting my ppl at a flight school in nc . Hope my instructor is as knowledgeable as you.

[@BlueMax333]

wow! that's an eye opener.

[@UguBar]

Thanks

[@danc1873]

I can't believe somebody thought it would behave differently, it's so obvious that in order to stop the propeller from rotating, you are applying a higher force to it than if you let the engine be passively put in motion by it: when you stop it from rotating, you are applying an *additional* force, even if you don't see it. A freely rotating propeller requires less energy than a blocked propeller: that's why it rotates in the first place!

[@TerribleFire]

Nice job.

[@kimkeam2094]

Thanks for that valuable information, I would have guessed a stationary propeller created the least drag. I’ll keep that in mind. As a question if you have time when next flying, could you also tackle the best way to air start an engine with the least loss of height as my aircraft is hand start and my instructors over the years did not know except to dive. I heard it is effective to increase speed and sharply pull up but have not tried it. All the best from Australia!

[@TheLargestDylan]

Given the results you've achieved, it appears that in order to get every foot of gliding performance you can, you would theoretically want to go to wide open throttle with the inop and windmilling engine. An open throttle would reduce pumping losses in the motor, further reducing the propellers resistance to spinning.

[@nshire]

WOT would also help dump some fuel overboard through the exhaust, lowering the plane's weight

[@SGTSnakeUSMC]

Good tip.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

Most fixed props stops at 60 knots or under. You will stall trying to stop the prop or while turning at 60 knots with the prop stopped. You need to use Vglide for the weight. Put a blue line for Vglide on Airspeed indicator.

[@aviatortrevor]

I'm curious if the stopped prop is having a more significant effect on the disturbed airflow going over the wing or top surface of the fuselage (which does produce some lift)? If we did the same test with a push-prop plane, I'd be curious what the effect would be. The friction internal to the engine shouldn't have any effect on the efficiency of the airfoil and glide performance. But there is work being done to a freely spinning propeller in order to make it move. I'm not sure if that work done implies more drag or less lift. This also reminds me of how vortex generators work. They produce wind vortexes over the wing, which helps make the airflow better stick to the wing and improves lift. Could a spinning propeller be acting as a Vortex generator?

[@dmc8078]

Good stuff!

[@fly8ma.comflighttraining199]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@fly8ma.comflighttraining199]

Thanks!

[@xMcVaCh1nax]

The yammienoob of aviation

[@jon-claudnix8290]

Terrific, simple vid. One question, and apologies if this has been asked and answered: What are your thoughts/have you actually seen in constant-speed props where we can vary the prop pitch (how much? Can it make a difference? Hence my query)? IF our emergency allows for continued prop control (i.e., doesn't fail-default to min pitch/max RPM/max prop drag => this last as seen in this vid with a fixed-pitch stopped prop), should we bring the prop *back* to as close as we can get to feathered? It *ain't* gonna be that close to feathered, but will the difference *make a difference to/improve upon* the windmilling option of our rate of descent? Hmm . . .

[@SimonAmazingClarke]

So how else do you train students, instructors are not going to start turning off engines. Yes, that is the only way to demonstrate an actual engine failure, but in training we teach the best that is available. Closing the the throttle isn't perfect, but it proves a point.

[@jn65100]

Maybe the manufactures should publish 2 or 3 best glide speeds like they do for weights? Or do the they average out the different speeds for stopped and windmilling prop?

[@portnuefflyer]

At least for my plane, stopping the prop is a no brainer. I've ridge soared it for as long as 3 hrs dead stick, (once, several times for lesser amounts of time) and every time, with the engine at idle, when I decide the lift is strong enough, I kill it, I am always a bit surprised to find the performances increases a bit. That could be subjective, as I am convinced it should be so! RANS S-7S, fixed pitched 78" Prince prop, Rotax geared engine, so lots of differences from your test.

[@alk672]

Aerodynamics is a very complicated chapter of physics. I’ve done years of fundamental science and never got to aerodynamics. That’s why when the engine goes silent - don’t go for a narrow field with trees in front and at the end of it. Don’t think the real thing is anything like you’ve practiced. Go for something wide and easy - something you can’t miss.

[@DWBurns]

And may I add as close to a road as possible so, 1, you will be seen and, 2, rescue can get to you.

[@TangoDancerLC]

Propeller is stalled in fixed pitch with prop not turning so very high drag. Feathered prop not stalled. Totally different scenario.

[@hasithasampath2155]

Sir single piston engine aircraft stop the engine in air.auto move the propeller course pithch.i have a problem are propller auto rotate windmiling,how to rotate,wich rpm

[@bigdaddie40]

Okay here's one for you. Is there less drag with a windmilling prop with the throttle open or closed? I would think throttle open would make the engine breath easier with less resistance.

[@DWBurns]

I asked the same question as you.

[@bigdaddie40]

@@DWBurns Sounds like it needs some testing.

[@chrisruf7590]

I just did some of this yesterday before seeing the video. Constant Speed prop adds another variable. 80mph blue knob fwd or back 1080fpm. 73mph prop fwd 880fpm. 73mph prop back 700fpm. All done at idle so fully stopped engine would be worse. If engine totally stopped I don't know if I could flare the prop - I think it needs oil pressure not just windmilling, but if you have partial power it may work.

[@DWBurns]

I have wondered that same thing, I have asked a number of people and no one knows if I can semi feather the prop on my Arrow if the engine dies and is windmilling. So far I have not tested it either as my mechanic has expressed concern for having the prop all the way back and the power off for some reason that I did not fully understand.

[@chrisruf7590]

@@DWBurns well if the prop is fully feathered you might not get the engine restarted? the Angle of Attack on the prop might be too low to get it to turn the engine?

[@SGTSnakeUSMC]

@@DWBurns I don't believe you can feather a single engine constant speed prop without oil pressure, but you could try a test on the ground by pulling the prop control as the engine spins down after shutdown to see if the prop stays feathered when it stops.

[@chrismayer3919]

I’ve heard (rumour/ urban legend) that you can restart a stopped engine using the windmill effect on a prop. Any truth to this?

[@BD-ko1wi]

How come you didn't try this at best glide? Would this change anything on the descent rate?

[@chrisruf7590]

90mph seems really fast for that plane. What is the published best glide? I'd guess below 78mph.

[@scottytissue73]

What about feathering constant-speed props?

[@fly8ma.comflighttraining199]

This is a constant speed prop...it does not feather...few do on single engine aircraft, more common to find that on a multi, and yes, feathered on a twin is far less drag

[@DWBurns]

What happens on a single if you pull the prop all the way back on a sick engine? My mechanic has told me not to do it to test my glide speed on my arrow.

[@EdJZatta]

How’s the airport and training center coming along?

[@fly8ma.comflighttraining199]

Making progress!

[@EdJZatta]

Look forward to it. Would like to head to Alaska sometime!

[@DWBurns]

With the prop spinning an engine producing zero power, just windmilling, would opening the throttle full, decrease the amount of drag the prop creates by reducing the power needed to turnover the engine?

[@bmw320i2]

Peter Garrison of Flying did this a few years ago. The engine windmilling against a closed throttle caused a partial vacuum in the engine which made it harder for the windmilling propeller to turn the engine over. Conversely, going wide open throttle with the ignition turned off cause a significantly lower descent rate because the because while the prop epxpends engery making the pistons comressair in the cylinders, that had an effect of the compressed air pushing the piston down after TDC. That's the same reason that diesel engines have a decompressor so that compressed air cylinder doesn't expand and push the piston down when you're trying to slow down.

[@veins101]

I have a question here... you are using sink rate to determine drag and from my understanding sink rate and glide angle are different. Is there a way to measure how far you glide per 1000ft over like 3000ft or so using GPS distance or DME? just a objective measure. I understand winds might not be constant so a record of ground speed might be beneficial for correcting and comparing.

[@fly8ma.comflighttraining199]

Glide can be calculated by multiplying the glide ratio of the aircraft by its height. Hope that helps.

[@plantpower3048]

I thought you sold the Patrol....

[@hurithinkbefore1340]

You act like Neil Armstrong with no fuel. Cool.

[@redleader]

"pesky engine"? Uh...I love my engine. She no pesky me.....

[@matthewh4717]

When the prop stopped isn't it viable to have a parachute ready to jump out at a moment's notice? ;) - don't forget your ridge wallet.

[@ElonHusky]

If you're in USA, Jump out of the plane with a parachute

[@daleyoung87]

You missed it. You equivocated the speed with glide. If you needed to speed up to GAIN speed, THEN the prop would have acted like a brake. You didn't try to accelerate the speed of the aircraft, you simply made the speed / drag equal. If you had to speed up, the windmilling prop would have created drag due to overrun