Engine Out

[@jimseals8659]

I'm an old UL Pilot, a little over 200 hours in a Flightstar UL. I had two engine outs in those hours, one on takeoff when the Rotax 503 single ignition failed at about 150 feet, I was taught to use all the runway and just dropped the nose and put it back down. The second was a cold seizure on the engine at about 1500 feet agl. I found a convenient field and put it down. I caught one of your terraces and bounced back up in the air, put it back down pretty hard and had to do a gear repair but it is certainly a learning experience. Ignore the haters, keep flying and be safe!

[@dtwyckoff]

@@jimseals8659 thanks Jim. Appreciate it. It’s a pretty scary feeling when that engine quits in flight huh?

[@station-wb4izc]

Thanks for the update. Back in the day when my Wife was a low time pilot we had the exact same issue in a C-172 at night over KY lake. Upon engine quitting we switched back to both tanks, lowered the nose, and she came back to life. We never flew again at night in a single engine bird.

[@dtwyckoff]

It's a scary feeling huh? Did you still have some fuel in the one you were using when the engine quit? I'm thinking that fuel line might be clogged some. Going to dive into everything this weekend. Thank goodness you switched tanks.

[@station-wb4izc]

@@dtwyckoff Yes we landed at a near by airport in Ky and topped off the tanks. Then flew back to Memphis on both. They found a partially blocked fuel line on the right tank the next day. Always flew Cessnas on both tanks from then on. Yap wife was aiming for the darkest spot as I reached for the fuel selector. A FedEx pilot friend has always told us to aim for the darkest spot at night upon an engine out and then turn the light on when you near the gournd. If you don't like what you see turn the light off.

[@j-dubya45]

I’ve seen fuel siphon a few times. If your right tank is full to the top, and you don’t burn it fast, the fuel could be expanding and flowing out through your pressure tube, or around the cap if the seal isn’t great. And the seal on the cap… One time last year I topped off a Bonanza and during climb out I visually saw fuel siphoning from one of the cap. In this case I slowed down from cruise climb to a slower climb speed to reduce the low pressure over the cap and it quit siphoning. Replaced all four seals in the caps. Haven’t had it happen since. I wouldn’t use a work around (such as both wing fuel valves open all the time) for your fuel system. I’d suggest learning why the fuel is siphoning and fix the problem. A strategically mounted camera could probably help you figure it out in a hurry. It’s either coming from the pressure tube atop the cap (that’ll be expansion) or it’s getting pushed or sucked out from around the bottom of the cap.

[@rickkennerly2379]

Okay, as long as your draining tanks, do this right and discover what is happening with some accuracy. Go down to Home Depot and buy a ⅜ or ½ inch wooden dowel, 4 foot long. Cut it in half and make two different measuring sticks (since your tanks are different sizes and shapes). Take the sticks and your Sharpie to the gas pumps with you. Make sure your header tank is full, then put just 2 gallons in each wing tank. Dip the sticks and mark them with the 2 gallons mark, and make sure you label the sticks left and right. Then put 2 more gallons in and mark the sticks again at the 4 gallon point. Turn off the fuel to your left tank. Fly the plane for one hour (get high as fast as you can, just for safety). Land and dip both tanks. First, you’ll be able to determine your exact gph. But also, see if the engine return is feeding fuel back to the left tank or not. If there is more than 4 gallons in the closed tank, you’ll know where the fuel return line connects. As long as you’re going to refill the tanks from scratch, finish topping off the tanks and marking your sticks in 2 gallons increments. You can’t match a well calibrated fuel dip stick and an exact knowlege of true gph for piece of mind on XCs. That staining leak might only be expansion from being in the heat. Wonder if that will happen in the cold? Finally, put in some inline fuel filters from the wing tank lines. Or, I guess, one fuel filter from the header to the engine. Whichever is easier to get to and change regularly. Have you pulled screens in the carb and seen what they looked like? Let us hear how things shake out.

[@prsedlac]

Hi David, thanks for sharing. A few things to check: Make sure none of the fuel filters have a paper element. If they get any water in them it adsorbs into the paper and can block flow. Stainless mesh filters are the way to go. Check to see you have good fuel filler cap gaskets (Mercedes) as mentioned in comments on your first video on the engine out. Also, remove the finger strainers from the fuel tank outlets. If you're getting fibers from the tanks, they'll plug off the strainers. I do this on every condition inspection on my Model III. And, never use any ethanol gas if these are early model fiberglass tanks. It loosens and Kream coating in the tanks and attacks the resin that was used. Edit: I should have said remove, inspect and replace the finger strainers. They serve a useful function.

[@dtwyckoff]

Great points. Thank you. Yeah I use non ethanol but I definitely need to do these things. Thanks again. Definitely don't want to be in this position ever again.,

[@Kitfoxj]

@@dtwyckoff To add to this.....a lot of people run a back up/boost pump. Facet #40105. Had one on my KF4 and and I currently have one on my KF5. The Mercedes gaskets are part # 140-471-00-79-493.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@Kitfoxj I'll have to look into the backup boost pump. Thank you. I actually bought those blue Mercedes gaskets but they are too big and my cap won't lock shut with them on.

[@Kitfoxj]

@@dtwyckoff that’s odd that the gaskets won’t fit…..too thick? Might have to slightly bend down the tabs on the inside of the fuel caps.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@Kitfoxj I believe I am losing some fuel out of the wing because of being uncoordinated. I'm going to mount a camera up there and see what happens. I even bought brand new gas caps from Kitfox and they are sealing correctly so I believe being uncoordinated is the issue with the fuel spillage now. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again for the help and advice.

[@Shane_Little]

Seems like a vapor lock. My brain says it’s tied somehow to the right fuel cap leak? I dunno. Occam’s razor comes to mind. Easiest answer might be accurate. You did a great job, bro! I’ve been a pilot for over 30yrs. You stayed calm and got her on the ground. That’s the important part and you’ve learned something, too. ✌️

[@dtwyckoff]

We are thinking the same. Drained the fuel system this weekend and no major blockages.

[@Shane_Little]

@ Good! I was somewhat concerned with the particulate in the sump but the filter should grab most of that. How did the filter look when you cleaned it?

[@dtwyckoff]

@ not too bad actually. Definitely nothing that would’ve caused complete blockage.

[@Shane_Little]

@ Right. That would have been super obvious. Enjoying your channel! Kinda randomly stumbled on you a while back as I was watching Mauleguy and DarkKnight if memory serves. Landing on a river bar gets my heart pumping! Lol. Thanks for the replies, sir!

[@dtwyckoff]

@@Shane_Little You bet. Thanks for tagging along on my adventures.

[@HongyaMa]

Header tank needs a cross fed vent system - The Nan Chang has a low header tank and all three tanks are vented. The Kit Fox I built had multiple vents and pick ups Header vent and pick up two inlets. Tanks had cross vented & cap vents with pick ops fore & aft tee to single line to header and a low fuel light on the header from an R-22 helicopter.

[@jtuttle11]

Glad you made it home safely. This got me to thinking about my Colt. In addition to the Fuel tank quick drains there is also a Gascolator drain at the bottom. Since it's inside the engine cowl at the bottom It's difficult to reach, BUT I think I'll have to add this to my pre-flight inspection.

[@HollywoodRebel]

I just re-plumbed my fuel lines in my RANS. I am still worried about it just because fuel problems are a big contributor to engine outs. I spent about 20 mins on the ground the other day just doing several full power run ups before I would fly. I checked for fuel leaks and all is good. Still always in the back of my mind. Glad all is good.that does make a bit of sense flying uncoordinated would cause the suction. Be safe and keep flying.

[@dtwyckoff]

Thanks buddy. I’ll keep ya posted after we dive into it more. You are about due for a new video aren’t ya? Lol. I enjoy them. Keep em coming.

[@davids.682]

@dtwyckoff I had an issue with a wing tank fuel line in a Taylorcraft once. I was on a long ferry flight with a full wing tank that fed into the nose tank. Both tanks had vents in their caps. Both were full when I took off. The wing tank is only supposed to be turned on once the main tank is drained more than the wing tank capacity. Well, I got the main tank down to about 3 gallons then turned on the wing tank. After a few minutes I noticed that the main was not filling up. I had to turn around and divert to an airport that I had passed about 15 minutes earlier. After landing, I found that the fuel line from the wing tank was routed upward before going into the main tank. There was an air bubble in that line that kept the fuel from flowing. I blew into the wing tank cap and the fuel began to flow as it should. All this is just to say that while fuel systems seem simple, there is a lot to consider especially when it comes to line routing and venting. I am not sure how a vent in your header tank would work without all the fuel (from your wing tank feeding it) running out, unless the vent hose end was higher than your wing. If the header tank vent was actually plumbed into the top of your right wing tank, it might work unless it had a bubble or liquid trap in it. You should examine your entire fuel system routing to fully understand how each tank is plumbed. It sounds to me like there is not a good vent in your header tank. Fuel won't flow out of a tank unless air or fuel from your wing can get in.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@davids.682 can you email me? I would like to discuss this more. [e-mail]

[@oltimer5544]

David, seems you were pulling a vacuum on that right tank so the fuel was not draining to your header tank. The low pressure across the top of the wing was greater than the positive pressure within the tank. Make sure the cap vent is clear. I would blow in the vent and see if there is any resistance. Years ago my Dad experienced an engine failure in our Stinson 10A when a mud dabber plugged the vent in the cap. Also check for free flow from the tank to the header and through to the gascolator on the firewall. Check on the KitFox forum and see what advice they can give regarding your old style tanks. It could be that you can get the new style tanks from KitFox to replace yours. I have read of issues with the old style tanks. The previous owner my have run ethanol in your plane which may have deteriorated yours. I would not try to use any type of tank sealer. My 2 cents worth.

[@ronaldnielson8591]

My thoughts also

[@KitfoxPilot]

I'm sure you have checked but the rubber seals on the fuel caps cause the leaking you are having sometimes. Nice job getting it down. Look in your tank and see if the inside liner is collapsing, that happens on the older tanks and will stop your fuel flow.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@KitfoxPilot thanks Harlan. Definitely need to check the tanks. Good advice. Seals are good thankfully. We are going to drain the tanks this weekend. Fingers crossed.

[@blyz_69]

You did just fine man. Any landing you walk away from, there's zero room for criticism. Anyone, unfortunately, can Mon morning QB. Outstanding job and hope you figure this out so it can be avoided in the future. I remember my first dead stick. You'll never forget it, nor should you

[@KevinSlez]

Thanks for sharing your "adventure". Just ignore the haters. Us pilots appreciate those who are willing to share lessons learned. I look forward to future videos. Potentially looking at a Kitfox in the future, so real world stuff is more interesting to me than videos that are obviously looking for clicks. Fly safe. Fly smart.

[@RWBHere]

Not a pilot here, and likely never will be (Age and health!), but I'm glad that you're closing in on the cause of the problem. My guess is that you'll be checking fuel condition before every flight after that scare.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@RWBHere absolutely. We are flushing the fuel system also. Definitely don’t want to be in this situation again

[@tedphillips7727]

Be sure to change all filters and open and clean any sediment traps or fuel bowls. Not sure what engine you have. Glad your safe. Nice plane. Fly high so you have time to find a place. Always a good idea.

[@GrimshawAviation]

Kinda sounds like you might have a vent plugged. Usually for the fuel to drain it needs a way to vent the exchange of pressure for it to feed correctly. I would say look at all of the vents: CAP and bottom vent. Possible there is a clog in the lines, but very rare.

[@mhilderbrand7693]

Glad I stayed to the end of video, I was going to ask if you have a fuel indicator on your header tank. I have a Viking engine on my Zenith, and It is reassuring I can basically run both wing tanks dry before my 2.5gal header tank comes off the full. Red light goes off at 2.3 gal 😀. Glad you made it back! I have family in Faulkner, KS… small town.

[@WestFamilyOK]

Glad you're here to relay your lessons to us. I'm just south of you (North of T-town) and really enjoy your content.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@WestFamilyOK where are you located exactly? Thanks for following along. I enjoy making these videos.

[@WestFamilyOK]

@@dtwyckoff I fly out of Skiatook and Claremore. I've done some turkey hunting around Parson's KS. :) Love SE Kansas!

[@dtwyckoff]

@ I did my Tailwheel rating with Kevin in Skiatook in his J3. That’s a great little airport.

[@ashleymuir1046]

Check the vents are not blocked in the fuel caps

[@buckbuchanan5849]

Is your vent blocked? Thanks for posting, following along! And, you did a great job locating a field and putting her down.

[@dtwyckoff]

Thank you. We are actually going to check the vent line when we flush the fuel system and wing tanks. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again.,

[@klh3244]

Glad you had a safe landing! How scary! My Dad had a motor blow in his J3 Cub back in the 70’s he always told us how scary that was. Pay no attention to the hater’s!

[@dtwyckoff]

@@klh3244 thank you. I appreciate it. 👍👍

[@Mike-01234]

Good thing you fly over areas with lots of flat spaces to land. Wonder if there is some way to alert you if the header tank is not staying full?

[@dtwyckoff]

I have ordered a low fuel indicator that mounts above the header tank.

[@AirJockey100]

You did great handling the engine failure. Don’t let those haters get to you. They will always be there ignorantly showing their obnoxiousness

[@dtwyckoff]

Thanks. Much appreciated.

[@bradsmith4004]

I have a Kitfox 7 but I think the fuel system is basically the same. The vents face the wind creating positive pressure on the tanks. If one cap isn’t directly into the wind and the other is, it can create differential pressure and cause one tank to flow faster or fill the other tank. A bad fuel cap gasket can do it as well. Do you have the newer style fuel pump with the return line to the header tank? It helps reduce vapor lock. Nice dead stick landing BTW.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@bradsmith4004 I did upgrade the fuel pump. I heard the older ones failed often.

[@jodyolivent8481]

My Rans S6S cautions against filling the tanks to the filler neck as it can cause syphoning of the fuel which will then spill overboard. I do not have valves for each tank but the solution if that occurs is to clamp one fuel line. If that is happening to your plane I wonder if the fuel flow overboard would be enough to reduce fuel flow to the engine enough to starve it. I've been enjoying your videos. Glad you are okay and that the plane is reusable. Good job on the emergency landing.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@jodyolivent8481 thanks Jody. Appreciate the kind words buddy. I gotta get this figured out.

[@jking755]

Listen I fly a 912 in a kitfox, no duff I feel it. Good content, keep sharing.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@jking755 thank you. Appreciate it. 👍

[@FinbarrLynch]

You done a fantastic job getting down safely

[@dtwyckoff]

Thank you. I sure hope I'm never in this situation ever again.

[@FinbarrLynch]

@ I have had 2 engine outs myself on 2 strokes 😬912 good engine it’s normally fuel issues when they stop Hope you get back flying soon

[@ricktoberfest]

I hope you didn't think of my comment from last video about altitude after the engine out as overly negative of you! First off I'm not a IRL pilot, 2nd it was hard to tell altitude from a camera in a cockpit, and 3rd it was mainly about if it were me- how I'd want as much glide range as possible. I believe you when you said you were high enough. Sometimes I've noticed other low time pilots seem to think that lower is better when usually the opposite is true. Again, it's of course completely subjective and everyone is different. You did just fine for a situation like that.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@ricktoberfest no not at all. I’m glad you asked actually because I should have mentioned that in my video. 🤦‍♂️. And thank you. That was the longest 6 miles of my life.

[@randysanders5560]

Dam good job dude. Love the plane

[@dtwyckoff]

@@randysanders5560 thanks buddy. Appreciate it.

[@nevwhalley]

Check the fuel cap vents

[@OneAV8]

"Haters gonna hate"..... Even if you touched down faster than you prefer, it still looked smooth and you got it stopped short!

[@rickkennerly2379]

912, right? Where does your fuel return line go? I assume there is no cross feed tube to equalize the tanks or relieve pressure in one. If the fuel return goes just to the right tank, is it pushing the fuel already in a full tank out through the vent? What happens if you have begin with less than a full tank on the right?

[@dtwyckoff]

@@rickkennerly2379 no cross feed. The vent line goes from my header tank to my bigger tank that I was using this day I had my engine out. Left tank with no vent was shut off.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@rickkennerly2379 great question Rick. I need to try this. I think I’ll fill the bigger tank 3/4 full after I get back up in the air. Thanks for the feedback

[@Bearhawk_Life]

Great follow up

[@dtwyckoff]

Thanks Jay. Appreciate it buddy.

[@martinjnee3986]

As some have said, check your vents in fuel caps. What did you do with your grove gear? I would be interested in them!

[@dtwyckoff]

@@martinjnee3986 fuel caps are new and sealing correctly thankfully. No blockage in the vent tubes in them. Thanks for checking. I actually sold my grove gear recently. They sure are hard to find now. Thanks again Martin

[@fredwilliams6843]

First, I’m happy everything turned out alright. Second, the last thing you said was “I gotta go crappie fishing over here”. And then you went silent. I could see prop wasn’t spinning but you didn’t talk. That I found surprising or not. Perhaps you were so frightened that you could’ve speak.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@fredwilliams6843 you are absolutely correct. It was a horrible feeling and I even forgot to use my flaps on landing. Check out my latest engine out follow up video if you get the chance.

[@prussiaaero1802]

What's the condition of the rubber fuel tank cap gasket? If not sealing properly, air will escape the easiest path, and maybe take fuel with it.

[@dtwyckoff]

Great question.. I actually bought brand new ones from Kitfox a couple months ago because I was thinking the same thing. I believe my issue is not being coordinated in turns and that's causing me to lose fuel from the wings. I'm going to mount a camera up there and see if this is the problem

[@auralharmony]

Ignore the haters. You did a great job getting that aircraft on the ground.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@auralharmony thank you. Appreciate it very much. 👍

[@chrishoare9313]

Are both your breaker tubes a the same angle had a similar problem with my zenith when not exactly the same

[@dtwyckoff]

@@chrishoare9313 great question. Need to check this to make sure. Appreciate the feedback.

[@HighCountryRambler]

Is there a screen in the pickup tube where fuel line draws from the tank? I had a vapor lock situation on a gas engine where fuel was boiling in the line causing carburetor to suck air. Intermittent fuel starvation issues are a pain to chase.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@HighCountryRambler this system doesn’t have a screen in line with the header tank. That’s what a lot of people are saying might be the problem also is vapor lock. Going to flush the lines and the tanks and start there. Definitely a scary moment I don’t want to have happen again.

[@robertlewis8773]

Is your fuel vent directed into the wind. If it is backwards it will create a vacuum from the Venturi effect. It will suck all the fuel out. This can also slow fuel flow from the vacuum.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@robertlewis8773 yes sir. Both fuel caps have the curved vent tubes on top and they face forward. Thanks for checking. Trying to diagnose this issue.

[@robertlewis8773]

@@dtwyckoffit sounds a lot like a fuel vent issue to me. I suggest a ground fuel flow test. Disconnect the inlet, and free flow into a bucket. Measure the flow over time. This should help you figure it out. Good luck!

[@robertlewis8773]

Great job with the engine out too!

[@dtwyckoff]

@@robertlewis8773 Great point. Thank you. Definitely going to try this.

[@dtwyckoff]

@@robertlewis8773 Thanks Robert. Appreciate it buddy.

[@kennethmahorney350]

Ignore the minutia and the armchair advice. Keep flying and have fun. Verify proper venting but sounds you have it nailed if you found debris.

[@dtwyckoff]

Thanks Kenneth

[@anzacday4141]

David, I am no expert, however, is draining and flushing the fuel system enough???????????? What I am going to suggest maybe left field, time consuming and some expense. Why not completely remove the fuel system to enable you to undertake a total examination of all system parts. This maybe long winded but, You will have a high level of certainty and maybe identify why you are currently experiencing those issue. After all, falling out of the sky can be an unpleasant experience. (Just a thought) John from Australia

[@dtwyckoff]

@@anzacday4141 thanks John. Appreciate the advice. I belong you are correct. It’ll give me a peace of mind also. Thanks again

[@berniebrown9115]

Got a question are you getting fuel still come out of right tank even when you closed the left tank valve. Got the impression that it fixed your overflow problem. If that is the case then my guess is the right tank fuel lines are partially clogged. When both tank valves are open the header tank is being filled mostly from left tank and then draining back into right tank causing overfill. Hey just an old farmer here . Not an expert but that would make sense to me.

[@dtwyckoff]

This is the issue we are thinking. Left side fills headed tank just fine but right side apparently isn’t. Learned this the hard way by running out of fuel on this flight. Gauge still showed 1/3 tank of gas also. Turned left valve on it fired back up.

[@berniebrown9115]

@ yes and when left side fills header tank it gravity feeds to overflow right tank

[@davidbettencourt6014]

are the tanks not venting causing a vacuum when the liquid drops down not allowing it to flow had a similar issue on older harley only one tank empty one full. on full tank gas leaked out of cap area when sun warmed up tank

[@dtwyckoff]

@@davidbettencourt6014 I believe this is the issue. Exactly what is happening. I’m draining fuel tanks this weekend and diving into it to try to figure this out. Thanks for the response David.

[@oltimer5544]

Hey David, did you get to the bottom of your fuel feed issue yet?

[@dtwyckoff]

@@oltimer5544 I did. I’m uploading a video now that explains it. Should be ready to watch in a couple hours. Thanks for checking and thanks again for the advice.

[@lutherwasoniii6627]

I work in the Medical field and this question is not plane related but have you had your Thyroid checked? On film it looks like what people call your Adams apple seems a bit large.

[@rdwit659]

David, do the tanks vent thru the fuel caps or do they have a separate vent? If thru the cap (the same cap that is venting fuel overboard) then it may be that the tank could not draw air as the vent was plugged by the fuel coming out. At any rate, great job on the landing!

[@dtwyckoff]

I have an additional vent line to my header tank that is behind my seat. I am thinking that line might be partially clogged that goes from my big tank to my header. tank. Going to pull it and flush the lines and also draining the wing tanks as well. Definitely don't wanna be in this situation ever again. And thanks for the help and kind words also. Much appreciated.

[@rdwit659]

@@dtwyckoff The vent to the header tank, even if clear, might not allow replacement air to the wing tank as it is located downstream of the wing tank. Good luck with it. I may run across you one day, I fly out of KGMJ, used to be based at KMIO!

[@dtwyckoff]

@@rdwit659 Oh wow. I fly into Miami all the time. My grandad used to manage the Miami airport. Truman Geouge. I grew up at that place. That's neat. Let's meet up sometime. I fly into Grove sometimes also.

[@rdwit659]

@@dtwyckoff Sounds like a plan!

[@gregwatruba4541]

Change out your fuel lines out. Years ago, the fuel lines on my Harley were breaking down and causing crud in my carb. Fuel lines are cheap.

[@dtwyckoff]

Thanks Greg, will do. I have the older 912UL

[@thebigbilltheory4388]

Thanks for posting in lieu of all the idiot trolls.

[@countysecession]

You went to the same acting school as Trevor Jacobs.

[@KitfoxGrin]

That's kinda pathetic. I know Dave, and he wasn't acting. Let's see you land a plane after an unexpected power loss and have the guts to help us learn from your mistakes.

[@thebigbilltheory4388]

@@countysecession KZbin has to be better with letting trolls comment. Think if you’re going to comment about something. You shouldn’t be allowed to type from you a$$. Stop armchair blogging and get a life.