Benefit Of Wheel Spacers On A Subaru BRZ

Will adding wheel spacers to a Subaru BRZ improve handling through increased grip? The idea is that by increasing the car's track, you reduce load transfer and thus have a more evenly distributed load, resulting in more grip. This video looks at the math behind doing so, to determine if adding wheels spacers is worth it. This video is made as the second part to my video on wheel spacers, which should be watched prior to this. You can apply the equations used to your own car!
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[@123etgwbvgdcfawsfr]

but you can't calculate how much better my car looks ;)

[@toshibavoodoo]

+Matthew Ng YEA!! I want to know how much damage is happening to the vehicle, when you get the perfect wheel to body ratio!

[@123etgwbvgdcfawsfr]

awww -50%??!?!!? haha nah i don't have spacers, i make sure my wheels fit properly and safely :)

[@robpracht9303]

Spacers are safe.. Tha wright quality hubcentric and not to wide..like 12 to 15 mm wont change a lot on wear and tear of bearings steeri g components etc.. Makes you car look moor beaffy and you benefit because it gets a bit .ore stable in cornering. Do it good and you will like it. Because getting rims with a lower offset have the same effect as spacers...sure a bit more standard attatchment. I have 20 in the back and 15 in the front of my car..wheels just about flush with the body..and i love it.

[@CageyJ0nnY]

great description! this was much easier to understand imo with the exmaple. Great job Jason

[@CBrzoza]

Love the videos! You bring a lot of knowledge to an area where sadly many people are unaware

[@mtb_landin]

For my car, I just put spacers on to get a better look.. now the original wheels are flush with the fenders and it looks so much better..

[@aconfusedazn]

Can you quantify the changes in the scrub radius with a wider track? This is great info.

[@CrazyLazyDave]

Nice video. You should show a grip comparison of spacers vs a wider wheel and tire. Obviously with the same track width in either case. Probably a much more significant change in grip there, albeit a similar or identical weight transfer scenario.

[@iLLustrious85]

lol they should teach math like this

[@StevenSVT]

Lol!! not only math, but physics... When teachers use examples like these, the class becomes really interesting!

[@EtherFox]

+StevenSVT For car people. Unless it's teaching things incorrectly, then you just became irate.

[@tornut24]

+StevenSVT Exactly. My head always perks up when my physics teacher uses cars in examples.

[@blueneckmedia4590]

+Josh R At this point, I think I'm back on high school on learning calculus again.

[@buddybestor]

I know right! I'd be a so much more intrigued to learn math like this!

[@veefource]

It would be really interesting to know if the wider track benefit is generally greater than the detraction in the change in camber on a typical sporty car. Any chance you could look into that please Jason? Thanks for the great content!

[@ryevdee6064]

Just want to mention, although it’s not considerable, I’ve definitely noticed a pretty big difference in stability under cornering which has been nice (when I want grip..) and haven’t been able to directly explain it until now. Great to know I got some math to back up my spacers now! 😅

[@Low97ss]

I'd like to see a video on equal track width vs staggered track width, pros and cons of each.

[@alexindustries44]

thanks for your video Can you make a video of vortex generators?

[@AlexanderDeltchev]

love your videos

[@kartikgopalakrishnan128]

Great Video. I did not understand the effect 1G of cornering force on the calculations. If the car were to corner at 0.9 or 1.2 G's would the final values of the lateral load transfer have changed??? (If so How?)

[@888TopGear888]

What if you have spinner rims?

[@leganjan]

thanks, i did some math and get to results that are pretty insignificant. I droped my car aprox. 35mm. so after calculation i realized that load transfer is only about 2% less than before.

[@Sens23Bruins]

can you make a video like this for trucks? does it improve off road traction or handling?

[@egsmachine]

its seems that optimizing the torsional forces from the scrub radius would be the better target for widening the track.

[@TurdFurgeson571]

So what your saying is..... I need to use spacers on spacers! I'm going to use the whole lane when I'm done! Thanks for the great advice! What could go wrong? EE told me to do it.

[@dudzdomasig]

You talked about one advantage, but what about a disadvantage? Say for example stress on any of the parts involved? Based from the results of your computation, is it safe to assume that it too will be minimal or negligible even? Way to go to shed some light on this topic since spacers are a very controversial one. Big ups for you and this video and to the next! :)

[@EngineeringExplained]

+Dudz Domasig kzbin.info/www/bejne/nojMm5mlpMqGr7c

[@fouadlouis5341]

do you have a video that explain the difference between racecar engine and road car engine? like the bmw z4 gt3 engine

[@zameerhussain6863]

Hi, good job....adding spacers to my gt86 will I need to change the tracking

[@dtimboggs]

Since you gave definitive numbers on the track of the suspension, how about real numbers on the disadvantages you specified in the first video, (camber, scrub length, etc..) your video only gave subjective examples of the problems with spacers without real numbers. If the spacers only effect the track numbers at one percent, how does the spacer effect the rest of the suspension specifications. Thanks for you videos....

[@EngineeringExplained]

+dtimboggs It's unfortunately much more complicated. Every suspension design is going to be unique so modeling/testing would have to be done to see the effects on the wheel bearings and the effects from altering the scrub radius. Load transfer is much more basic in principle, and can be applied much more generically to other vehicles.

[@herranton]

+BATchida Wouldn't you just be able to add a spacer/adapter and then subtract that from the offset of whatever wheel you get and you would basically have the same dimensions? Really, don't wheel spacers/adapters just add offset to the wheel choice? (from the perspective of the rest of the suspension) (And it would technically subtract offset, but whatever)

[@jamesdallis5911]

+BATchida I own a first gen 7 as well. I use 90's Honda accord wheels with an offset of 44mm. I also used a 25mm wheel spacer to match it to the RX7s weird lug pattern. The factory offset for the first gen RX7 is 20mm. The new offset with the Honda accord wheels and the spacer is 19mm. The moment changed from 20 to 19mm, but I believe that is acceptable. I put 205/50/15 tires on the wheels which are very close to the 205/60/13s that were on there before. What should be said is if the offset is the same (or at least relatively close) to factory you won't incur pre-mature wheel bearing issues. You aren't changing much of anything other than the amount of rubber in the wheel/tire.

[@RobertoRodriguez-fu5oc]

You do just move the mount face but along with that there is more upward weight due to leverage its kind of like a seesaw the balance point is in the middle (stock fitment) now put the 10 pounds on both sides its balances out. Now spacers push your mounting point away from the hub. So change that seesaws middle point away from iy and the balance is thrown off

[@dartdude7149]

thanks for replying bro

[@78MatWar87]

this would be very hard to get numbers on, but it'd be also good to know realistically how much more of a difference this makes on the life of your bearings and so on that you eluded to in the other video. Most people i know who have wheel spacers though just do it for the looks, although it probably wouldnt make a difference to them it'd be nice to tell them you're taking xyz amount of months off of the life of your parts.

[@JustinKelly]

So since the BRZ has a lower CG than most cars would it (adding spacers) have a greater/positive effect on a car with a higher CG?

[@pikepeak1]

+Justin Kelly according to is calculation you can replace the cg of 460 with a bigger number. Damn it, I had to get the calculator.... So with a cg of 500 you get 83 percent stock and 82 percent with spacers so yeah the higher the greater....

[@JustinKelly]

+pikepeak1 Interesting... Thanks!

[@rhkips]

Does the weight transfer include unsprung weight? In my mind, working out the weight transfer data is to help calculate the load on the contact patch of the tire in order to determine tire width and grip for a given load. I'm probably way off with this...

[@DanteGonxhja]

Was wondering if the added unsprung weight by the spacers makes it a deal breaker or it's unnoticeable

[@leroywatson2399]

Hi, I've added (to the rear) 20mm spacers and new 1/2 inch wider wheels all round to my UK 2001 S3, purely for looks. I then had the car 4 wheel aligned (Having adjustable rear tie rods) Will this reduce the extra loads gained, to various parts due to widening of the track?

[@HORUS9]

any idea where i can find data like this for a different car? looking to calculate it for myself on a different car.

[@stevey500]

Does this change much for say, a vehicle with much taller center of gravity like my Nissan Xterra? I have run either offset wheels or wheel spacers of at least 3/4'th inch on my previous three SUV's as it SEEMS to have an immediate effect on how the vehicle handles on the highway around sharp corners; feeling more confidence in the bends without as much body roll... is it all in my head?

[@hondopeenfiets]

Just do it because racecar

[@pyro637]

This assumes that the center of gravity is constant though. In reality that will change both in height and offset from the center based on car loading, driver weight, and body roll.

[@lukem5862]

so, i mostly understand however...when turning at 1g, dont you have to account for how much spring compression the outside tire will have. This would seem to have an effect on your distance to center of gravity. also, wouldnt there be an advantage to having the added leverage from hub to keep tire flatter in cornering?

[@leganjan]

could you do similar video, but explaining how ride height effect grip, handling and load transfer

[@EngineeringExplained]

+jan legan Here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hnnFqGmahMqpaKs and here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nni9g5Sfp9Z7hKs Hope that helps! :)

[@Touwtje]

What about the increased 'arm' length that the outside tyre would apply? At 25mm you would have 3,27% more effective rotational forces, or am I missing something?

[@IrenicusFTW]

ok, but if we also go full poly bushings, lower ride height with coilovers and use stiffer whiteline sway bars etc? ...just askin' because you're so good with math and formulas :D

[@83utan47]

Is this specifically for BRZ only? How about in general, what's the pros and cons for using a 20/25 mm wheel spacer?

[@carstracks6160]

HI, Nice math. Can this increase cornering speed? In track application looking to add some spacers. Have already coil overs and Wider 245 Hoosiers looking for better cornering speed and better stability in a rear. FWD car.

[@baribari600]

For what it's worth, adding 3 mm spacers on the rear of my car made a significant difference in handling on the track. It significantly reduced oversteer.

[@TheBuddilla]

I added 5mm spacers on all my wheels and that was a significant improvement for mountain carving. ;)

[@billyhamilton3669]

Iv just started FWD circuit racing and have noticed the top cars all have wheel spacers, at least on the front. What's the main benefit of this?

[@nickamarit]

Question: theoretically speaking, if increasing track width doesn't significantly affect resistance to roll, but we see race cars do it all the time (along with flared fenders), so I'm guessing it is to fit larger wheels and wider tires. However, my question is, if we had two almost identical race cars, one with fender flares and an increased track width, and one without the fender flares and using a more conservative track width; if we gave these two cars the same wheels and tires (the ones that will fit the unflared car, obviously), how much faster if/any would the flared car be over the unflared car in, say, an oval (square) track with 4 90-degree right turns and 1 kilometer straights between the turns??? I feel that flares make a car less aerodynamic, but I doubt that it would be significant in a circuit situation.

[@CmC2793]

Could you achieve the same effect by going with a wider wheel/tire set up? For example running 255's rather than the stock 215's. Just curious how surface area relates to all of this.

[@EngineeringExplained]

+Colby Coleson Yes, you could, depending on the wheel's offset.

[@lukem5862]

i just read another comment from "car geeks anonymous" that seems to question the same principle. i think the results have to include a few more dynamics.

[@MrCarlox86]

@Engineering Explained - I would expect the Cg to change when you add the spacers?

[@EngineeringExplained]

+MrCarlox86 Ride height will remain essentially the same.

[@DESTRAKON]

how would it effect an sc300?

[@Spentholomew]

Now what about the added weight from the wheel spacers?

[@jasonl5589]

I might be a placebo effect but after I put wheels spacers on my car, it felt much more stable at high speed but the steering felt lighter

[@noxious89123]

+Jason Lee Don't forget that repositioning the wheels relative to the bodywork will affect aerodynamics. I'd imagine it to be very slight though.

[@November.S]

+engineering explained So how will the steering dynamic change? Will the yaw rate change much on this car because of this near 10kg transfer?

[@TheBassStylee]

So, if one wishes to install a set of wider-than-stock wheels (i.e. from 7" to 8", etc.) - for performance purposes - the offset *should* remain the same as stock if possible? I'd be interested in both an EE breaking down wheel/tire widths and the effects on performance, as well as one going over wheel/tire diameters in a similar fashion. ...Just throwing that out there!

[@khawajadotd]

+Michael Porcelli thumbs up for width! I feel like diameter is pretty self explanatory and easily learned elsewhere though

[@TheBassStylee]

+khawajadotd I'm talking about: running 15" wheels vs. 18" wheels (extremes) with the same tire diameter, not running bigger or smaller tires. I've not seen this covered elsewhere; I've seen opinions, but not explanations per se.

[@khawajadotd]

ah. Thats a very understandable request I looked into it once. I looked at the reported weights of 15", 16", and 17" wheels ( I think rpf1s? don't remember) and the reported weights of circumference-matched star specs for each wheel size. I found that the wheels got heavier as they got bigger, but the tires didn't get lighter to balance that out. This amounts to more rotating mass, worse mass centralization (relative to the axis of rotation), and a change in handling from the size of the sidewall. Bigger wheels are heavier because they need more material to create a strong enough structure(duh). Tires don't change weight as significantly because (I think) the majority of their ability to support the vehicle comes from the air pressure within them. Again this is just my findings from a small bit of research, and my personal interpretation of the data. If someone knows more about it PLEASE chime in.

[@timex987987_jj3_studios]

If there isn't enough clearance from the strut to the inside edge of the rim, then either a wheel with a more negative offset or a wheel spacer is required to clear the strut.

[@skippy2987]

So how much more grip does that equate to?

[@11jet1331]

Is track width measured from the centerline of the stock wheels? Or is it measured hub flange to hub flange?

[@mrdragancelan]

+Marius G Track is measured from wheel centerline to wheel centerline regardless of stock or aftermarket wheels.

[@jdm_jadon]

Great video and perfect car to choose. I am going to the Subaru dealership later today to check out the brz. Also do you think I could fit enkei rpf1 17 x 9 with stock suspension on the brz? Thanks

[@carplay5454]

+Jadon Ghereben yes it will if the enkei bolt pattern is 5x100. Also, stock brz rims are 17x9.5. So, you may want to find rpf1 with the same size. It will still fit. But, more width, more tire traction.

[@jdm_jadon]

+Bee Vang what are you talking about the stock brz wheel size is 17x7

[@carplay5454]

you're right. i'm sorry. it still will fit as long as the bolt pattern is 5x100

[@joscythe556]

+Jadon Ghereben you should really research that ona forum, try to find someone who tried it already and has some experience.

[@jdm_jadon]

+Naelate there is +35 and +45 offset for the wheel I want i'm not sure which is better and which will fit with stock suspension and stock everything

[@jacobwilliams1620]

Cool!

[@razz339]

It should be noted that adding wheel spacers to only the rear of the car will increase under-steer characteristics.

[@nickamarit]

So would you say that people who put large spacers (1 inch and over) on a drift setup (such as Ryan Tuerck's BRZ) are doing it to affect the scrub radius rather than affecting the load transfer? (i.e. to make the car intentionally more "unstable" under braking to help initiate drifting)

[@EngineeringExplained]

Probably not, he's probably altered the suspension geometry to allow for higher steering angles (can be done with the control arms, with or without spacers).

[@nickamarit]

Engineering Explained Oh, that's right, I forgot how his front wheels could nearly steer perpendicular to the car.

[@hossamahmed8725]

everybody should take into consideration that the spacer will allow you to fit tires that are wider than the original

[@TheAfterbanger]

are there any other positive or negative benefits to having a wider track other than load transfer?

[@MrNicholg]

+TheAfterbanger yes, positive from longer control arms rather than spacers, meaning more travel and less drastic dynamic camber changes on independent set-ups. negative for aerodynamics and modified by wheel width, offset, or spacers without considering effect on spring rate and effect on scrub radius.

[@dartdude7149]

+engineering explained could you do video on the twin scroll vgt turbocharger you saw at sema

[@EngineeringExplained]

+dart dude Coming soon!

[@wickedkid909]

Engineering Explained hey brother help me out so I have a brz , I just bought some white cosmis wheels xt206r 18x9.5 5x114.3 10mm my bolt Pattern is 5x100 I just bought some isc suspension adapters for 300 their 15mm is this a good thing to put them on or no

[@wickedkid909]

I have to chop off my bolts to make the wheels fit

[@gabrielkaiss586]

I’m confused, he’s comparing load transfer, not grip resistance. Like how much harder would it be for the car to lose grip per say

[@chojuan23]

bueno para que entiendan lo que el ingeniero quiere explicar es que si usas spacers creas un tipo de palanca

[@Skipper576]

Isn't load transfer dependent on the suspension setup? I know the shocks will only decrease the rate of change of load transfer, but won't stiffer springs decrease load transfer and keep the car flatter?

[@moninum]

+Tanay Trivedi No load transfer changes by stiffer springs

[@matthewmcloone8314]

One would think the engineers of the vehicle would have dialed in the optimal track width for a car from the get go...so i'm suspect of widening any track more than say, a half inch from stock in most cases. Wider rims and tires generally accomplish this...though at the expense of more rolling resistance with slightly less fuel economy. On a turbo or supercharged 4cyl engine the extra traction is worth going with wider tires...with NA 4cyl engines i would lean towards staying with a 225/40 width tire for the lighter cars. That's for a daily driver, the track is the track, and public road driving practicality is no longer a consideration.

[@Barrystabbs]

So are they good or bad?

[@Stoneheadification]

Does this effect the Ackerman steering geometry or is this a stupid question?

[@noxious89123]

+Stonehead-chan From my understanding of it, that would be one of the few aspects of your suspension geometry that wouldn't be altered by fitting spacers. It's more to do with the angle of the steering arms relative to the position of the rear axle.

[@toshibavoodoo]

'negative effects' I have watched both videos, but still not sure if the 1.2% is a 'good' thing or a 'bad' thing. What are the results or new characteristics by adding a 1 inch spacer for the 'track guy'', and someone like me 'Grampa worried about getting good MPG, in a dailey driver in an MX5' guy? Love your channel, just found and have been going through your pass vid's, good stuff.

[@Kepe]

+toshibavoodoo Less load transfer = good thing, BUT by adding spacers you also mess up the suspension geometry quite badly, which will affect handling in one way or another. And you add more load on your bearings, which could make them wear out quicker.

[@toshibavoodoo]

THANKS!

[@Henchman_Holding_Wrench]

It might do something noticeable if it looked like the front wheels were completely outside of the car like Ryan Tuerck's Scion FR-S drift car.

[@EngineeringExplained]

+It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan. Perhaps, part of that is to give the tire space to rotate more for higher steering angles which are common in drifting. And it's not necessarily done with spacers, rather the suspension design to move the wheels out.

[@M3_86]

+Engineering Explained also think about handling characteristics if you have more track up front. In an exaggerated form, it would be like a 3 wheeler. Get that grip up front and sent the tail out equals DORIFTO! lol. Love your vids keep them coming.

[@ferrugemj18]

is that CG height relative to the axles or to the ground?

[@EngineeringExplained]

+Brasilisk Ground.

[@ferrugemj18]

Souldn't you use the height relative to the axles? Your drawing clearly uses it relative to the axles.

[@inebriatedengineering6288]

PLOT TWIST!

[@Thesleeper99]

How do you find the center of gravity?

[@MrMonta]

+Thesleeper99 that is petty complicated , google it you'll find a procedure how to do it .

[@trevoncowen9198]

could u do a V16 and a straight 8 explained and why nobody uses them anymore

[@EngineeringExplained]

+Trevon Cowen Because they're sooo long haha.

[@trevoncowen9198]

+Engineering Explained lol could u do a video tho I mean they were used in racing and some production cars

[@sofiamata6565]

i was thinking on adding some wheel spaced for my 240z so i could put some fender flares.. can you make a video on how to properly run with fender flares without having negative effects in the suspension or wheel bearings?

[@robertedwards1348]

No one has mentioned they make your car slower and take farther to stop because of the added weight of spacers and bolts. Always go for the lightest spacers (alum. alloy vs. steel) that you can afford.

[@derekstaton3240]

Robert Edwards you're evil 😂

[@TimurIskhodzhanov]

They are very close to the axle, so don't actually contribute much to the moment of intertia

[@TheAKBUDDHA1]

But wouldn't spacers put more stress on the studs and the wheel bearings?

[@EngineeringExplained]

+TheAKBUDDHA1 Yep, hence the other video I referenced: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nojMm5mlpMqGr7c

[@cpawp]

And how does a stiffer or weaker stabiilzer fit in?

[@MrNicholg]

+cpawp depends on the springs, geometry, and balance between front and rear axles.

[@moninum]

+John Ma Rubbish, if both ARBs are made stiffer then you get the almost exact weight transfer as before, actually it´s reduced a tiny bit.

[@dragonchaser3]

Conclusion being a lower 0-60 with spacers ?

[@EngineeringExplained]

+deauntre riley No. No affect on acceleration (except that you would be adding wheel weight, so minutely slower).

[@MrNikitir]

Turns out ~3.6% improvement on Tesla model Y with 20mm spacers. Significant enough? Weight!

[@kowasumono]

haha!! thanks for doing the math for me.

[@YahooDan11]

in EX2 i think its 485, not 460

[@Laststepp]

so I can go 1.2% faster around turns?

[@EngineeringExplained]

No, that's just the difference in load transfer. It does not mean you have 1.2% more grip.

[@Laststepp]

Engineering Explained sooo... not with the $60 for mediocre wheel spacers.

[@VirusTornado]

BRZ owners should consider getting a more competent set of tires first lol. Wider wouldn't hurt either.

[@DestDroid]

But you'll get 100% more babes.

[@TheUnkindness]

0 x 200% = 0 :(

[@Synthwave89]

@@TheUnkindness 0 + 200 = 200 babes Be positive bro 🤜

[@TakeTurnsGaming]

MMMM equal load transfer throughout

[@johnbergeron5015]

The weight of your body would outweigh the .9% improvement, and it would skew the loading. Don't think I'll be getting wheel spacers but you know racecar.

[@ProtonFilms_Mark]

Yes, but will this have the same effect on my Honda?

[@MrNicholg]

The point may be the same, but isn't this math a little to simplistic? Seems like roll center and roll couple would change the direct loading measurements, and ultimately the rate of loading based on those measurements may be more drastically different with specific spring rates and damping settings. As it stands, lengthening the lever of the wheel suspension arm means a loss of spring rate greater than 1% because the car rolls within the control arms. Or does that not matter?

[@rmpumper]

Spacers are primarily for a better look, not better performance, i.e. the rear wheels on my 2007 BMW E91 had ~35mm to the arches so the car looked like shit, installed 20mm spacers, now looks decent.

[@MrMonta]

+Ričardas Marozas can you show us how it looks now ? thx

[@M3_86]

Or used to fit fatter tires which equals performance. I need a 5mm spacer to fit 285 tires up front vs without which will accommodate 265/275. More front tire, more front end grip, more rotation.

[@brad7539]

It isn't an accurate reading. See the spacers also have some amount of weight and he didn't count the weight of the metal spacers in the equation.

[@rockthesenuts666]

i dont like maxwell equations in thermo. there, i said it.

[@sp50]

what type of engineer are you?

[@3248934]

+xzz Electrical engineer.

[@astronawf]

+xzz If I'm not mistaken he's stated he's Mechanical

[@EngineeringExplained]

+WinterDesigns Yes, but Ric Rac is an electrical.

[@astronawf]

Engineering Explained Oh, alright haha

[@FirstTakahashi]

+xzz mechletrical

[@RyanVasquez6089]

but then your wheel bearings wont be properly loaded and will not last as long

[@mvargass]

cool video i guess

[@EngineeringExplained]

+marcos vargas nice comment i suppose

[@mvargass]

+Engineering Explained fist of all i want to tank you for all for all of the videos. and i kind of follow what you are saying. that is what i meat with the comment. it may be may lack of English or math skills. i had spacers before and i always felt that i was doing something wrong. one more thing one day before you posted the video on crossed drill rotors i was drilling my rotors now i fear that i will get cracks.

[@thicknick734]

wheels spacers allow for better fitment, hovercraft fitment is gross

[@aldairmedina9589]

you mean 25.400 mm lol

[@micklimteckwee7831]

Next time come 10 months late, becoming a mother. 😉

[@MaximilianSterlingTv]

#marginalgains

[@moninum]

+SeaRanger311 #itsnotabouttheabsoluteitsaboutthefeeling #everybitcounts

[@anarchyamp]

None.

[@AndrewNiccol]

I don't understand@@?

[@WelshyAutomotive]

Wheel Spacers = Sweg.