Enlightenment Maps and Models ~ Shinzen Young

Shinzen responds to the question, "Is there a best model or map of the path, including the stages of classical enlightenment?" Filmed in April 2009 at Mt. Carmel, Niagara Falls.

[@JAYDUBYAH29]

beuatiful, pragmatic, humble, intelligent, honest talk - thank you shinzen!

[@Pimp-Master]

I have lived in a Shinzen world since the early 1990's, and it is finally so nice to see him strutting his stuff.

[@dailyfrench]

Beautiful and so deep videos, thanks so much Mr Young for all the free information that you shared into the world.

[@empty0grace]

Based on 40+ years of practice, I agree with everything he says here. In my experience the "fundamentalism trap" is the most dangerous of all, maybe because I spent 10 years caught in it as a result of "classical enlightenment" experience born of deep Mahasi style satipatthana practice. I also discovered as a point of interest that the application of self inquiry to higher levels of insight/mindfulness will quickly cure the "observer trap." I have made a video on this topic. with Metta, Daniel

[@paulgoddard5535]

I agree with the whole video. I love Integral, but I think it's a stepping stone to a universalized system more like the scientific system that isn't a stitching together of various traditions, but a cohesive and unified culture of awakening that's part of the greater culture of living. I've said it myself, until we can enculturate (or de-enculturate?) the average person into Enlightenment by at least adulthood, we still suck hehe, and need to just keep pluggin away at it by cultivating discoveries.

[@squamish4244]

I've spent some years thinking about just this sort of thing now, and I find it utterly shocking *every day* that we do not have a cohesive science of mind that is every bit as rigorous and widespread as all of the countless things our society is amazing at. We massively dropped the ball. It may well be that this failure will be our undoing - a civilization as powerful as ours without a means to tame our Stone Age brains/ignorant minds could destroy itself, as we seem on track to do in a few generations. Time is short, so we need to get on this ASAP.

[@fntime]

That has always been true. You premise is that existence will always be less than it 'should be' without universal enlightenment. If you believe in reincarnation and that time moves quicker than how we experience it, you'll see that all of the people who are watching video's like this are moving in the right direction. Also, if you are looking outside of yourself for the answers you'll be disappointed. The answers are within YOU, forget about others, they'll learn when they are ready!

[@SmartiniMedia]

What about the integral model / AQAL map? I find it most fascinating and would be curious to hear his comments.

[@CPLains]

What about using psychedelics and virtual reality in combination with the various teachings and modified versions of these teachings?

[@squamish4244]

Enormous potential. One of Shinzen's biggest passions (and mine) is the integration of technology with spirituality. It's happening already: transtechlab.org/ www.ttconf.org/

[@CPLains]

I'll check it out, thanks :)

[@walter_peck]

Psychedelics? Really?

[@CPLains]

​@@walter_peck Why not? We've been polishing the message for centuries, and still the probability of waking up are slim to none. Might as well try something new. If it doesn't work then oh well, was worth a try.

[@RodrigoCoinCurvo]

I think you should check Ken Wilber's work (AQAL map, as someone here commented), you might like it. He strives to unify different approachs to reality with a consistent epistemological basis (not the mumbo-jumbo put-it-all-together), including western and eastern, both religious and scientific baggage. He has a lot of books, but specifically on the spirituality subject there is "Integral Spirituality" (although many of his books touches the subject on a greater or lesser degree).

[@AndreasDelleske]

When watching his videos, I wonder what he aims at. There is nothing to aim at. There is no object to reach. I agree, scientific approach and so-called spirituality (accepting what is) should go together. Science is not at all in the way.

[@sbma5833]

As much as i like Shinzen's teachings, he tends to be utopian and idealistic about the future. He suggests that we don't know much about enlightenment yet and that the maps out there aren't that good. Where he gets it wrong is to say that this situation will change. With any new emerging maps in the future, one could raise exactly the objections he is raising now. Face it:the maps we have now are not going to get any better or worse. They will just evolve. Evolution=change, not improvement.

[@squamish4244]

Shinzen takes a scientific approach to spirituality. No one is going to question whether science has improved or not - from the steam engine to the iPhone in 300 years. Blazing fast. However, the spiritual paths have never had the same advantages. Lack of communication, lack of quality control, lack of universal guidelines, and complete lack of technology among other reasons meant that they stagnated for centuries. Most Eastern and Western teachers say that about 5% of students stick with meditation over more than one year - that is a truly awful success rate that would never be tolerated in academia, but is tolerated in spiritual circles because the student is blamed for failing, not the teacher for not providing good enough techniques. But all that is changing. There's stuff like this: www.ttconf.org transtechlab.org This is what they are already working on. It's only a glimpse of what will be possible.

[@xelatcrashes]

Perhaps the best map of all is the collection of all maps, taken together. But then this map must be in that collection and you have something of a contradiction . . . Russell's paradox applied to enlightenment.

[@BBWolf84]

It could be presented as a drug, and people love to get high. If you find a viable model that brings deep experiences to people fast, they will cal you GOD.

[@AndreasDelleske]

Just that it isn’t „deep“. It is all that is, peaceful and empty. It never went away. It is not an object. You don’t need to reach anything but maybe drop everything and see. If you get high or low, you get astray. It is this already.